Stealth

Gorwe

As a mechanic firstly in MMOs then in RPGs. What do you think about supposed Thieves(etc) being able to turn 100% invisible? Does your opinion of it change between PvE and PvP? Why and how so? Would youchange anything?

Po_gg

Since I'm less interested in it, I'd leave the pvp part to Wargfoot   (wargs are the stealth cohort in Sauron's army)

For the PvE side, I believe it's both fun as well useful to have stealth mechanics in the game. For scouting, pulling, crowd control or wrecking havoc, etc., they're good to have.

Not to mention the silly parts, like burglars in LotRO can actually pickpocket mobs (humanoid ones, obviously... orcs, goblins, etc.) and take away their rusty daggers or useless trinkets

100% invisible though, that'd be too much I guess.

Luckily that's not the case in LotRO (nor in AoC, etc.), there has to be some sorta risk in it, otherwise it'll be overused and tilts the game. There's no fun in sneaking past a whole dungeon and get the reward at the end...

(as far as I know it's the same in Ettenmoors too, people have ways to detect the stealthed wargs/burgs, but Wargfoot will detail the pvp side further)

Theocritus

I like it in PVE as an element of the gameplay, but do not like it in PVP as it feels like an unfair advantage.

Aenghas

I'm fine with mystical invisibility in PvE. If it isn't mystical I'm ok with npc's being 100% unaware of a stealthed character if the character never enters the npc's line of sight. I can maybe buy into the idea of mundane camouflage if an NPC doesn't detect you when looking at you when you aren't moving but there is no reasonable mundane explanation to explain how a player could move around undetected in front of an NPC.

PvP 100% stealth I'm not a huge fan of, especially if it is a hard counter to other classes. It feels cheap.

Iselin

ESO PvP had the right idea, obviously learned by Matt Firor when he was at DAoC where it was OP'd as hell: everyone can stealth. You can spec into it but that just gives you faster speed while stealthed, shorter detection radius, etc., but everyone can do it.

AlBQuirky

Xodic said:

My preferred stealth model would require a complete overhaul to modern MMO game design. I'd like to see skill based stealth in MMOs, as seen in the old Splinter Cell and Thief games for example. Stick to shadows and stay out of line of sight. I'm not a fan of clicking a button so your character no longer renders. I would settle for slightly phasing out based on the character's skill level, but stealth in the middle of a desert during the day just seems silly without the aid of magic.

A big problem is that games try to balance PvP around this instant invisibility, and it usually results in fights being evenly matched when, and only when, a stealther gets the drop on you for sake of "fairness", which really diminishes the whole concept. When you catch a class/build that is based around stealth out of stealth they're usually cannon fodder, but the opposite isn't true, because it would piss people off if they were to get slaughtered out of no where.

If MMO systems were as deep as single player games then player awareness, knowledge of terrain, patience, and preparation would lead to some pretty rewarding stealth combat, for both the stalker and the prey.

I'm nodding in agreement here. Thief instantly to my mind, too, as a model of "how to stealth right."

I laughed when I started watching Critical Role on Twitch way back when. A group of video game voice actors and players formed a group to play D&D. It took them a long time to figure out that stealth was not a "controller button." They kept saying, "I'm going to stealth." and the DM would ask, "How? There is nothing to hide behind?" That illustrated how too many video games handle stealth.

I understand why MMOs do it the way they do. If you have a game that may have 100 or more players in a single area all doing whatever they're doing, trying to stealth would be nigh impossible. It would be like when I beta tested Elder Scrolls Online and all players had to get a "bandit uniform" and sneak into their cave hideout. That sucked BIG time as many players didn't care and ran on trough the caves aggroing everything, and cared not one whit what other players were doing. That was how I see stealth in MMOs.

I like stealth as a playstyle. If I can avoid combat, I'd rather. It's difficult for me to imagine a "good stealth system" in an MMO, though. I hope it happens someday, but I'm not holding my breath for it

Po_gg

Xodic said:

My preferred stealth model would require a complete overhaul to modern MMO game design. I'd like to see skill based stealth in MMOs, as seen in the old Splinter Cell and Thief games for example. Stick to shadows and stay out of line of sight.

Why do you need redesign and overhaul for that? AoC has that already  

Ok, not on that level, and I don't think it'd be smart anyhow, for the same reason I've said no to the 100% stealth as well: it would tilt the game's focus to an overuse of the mechanic.

It was fine for a singleplayer "puzzle" game like Thief, but MMORPGs are much more than stealth.

("puzzle" in the sense you had to figure out the solution)

Nevertheless, earlier I just mentioned AoC as not having the full-on, 100% stealth, but actually it has most of what you seek: there's a skill, that gives a base on how good you are in stealth.

Beyond that there are environmental modifiers like light/dark (it even has a stealth indicator, pretty much like the gem in Thief, actually it even looks like a gem too), the mobs' facing/line of sight, and in a mild way the noise too (when run, they notice you more easily).

It doesn't have the different terrain types, the gear's noise, the mob distractions, etc. which Thief has offered, but again, that's a full-on stealth game, while we're talking about MMORPGs.

https://aoc.fandom.com/wiki/Hide
(though it's a wiki entry more from the pvp point of view)

ed. case study about broad daylight (the minor shade from the canopy doesn't matter), in knee-high (tops) foliage, with low points (low level, and he put points on climbing too) you can't just pass by the guards that close, even if they don't look straight at your direction

https://youtu.be/EjIT6abd74I?t=1010

ringdany

so far, the best implemented stealth class i have seen is from Neverwinter Nights 2002. Basically, the stealth ability (belonging to the Rogue class, and subclasses therein), ranges across a whole spectrum of relatively easy to detect to really hard to detect. The game has a spot, listen, move silently and hide checks built into the game. And your stealth ability reflects how you built your character. Gettign a high stealth ability, involves sacrificing a lot of other abilities. This is how it shoudl be. Furthermore, your detectability depends on whether you are in line of sight, and whethe ryou are in shadows or in a lit area. ANother recent mmo under development also uses this mechanic.

When you have such a great deal of customisability, then pvp is not a problem. The pvp game becomes usually a subset of these abilities, according to how the Gm designs the environment.

NWN is likely the best stealth game in the entire genre. And oh yea, you have pickpocket skill too. Great to hear Lotro has it also!

Sovrath

Gorwe said:

As a mechanic firstly in MMOs then in RPGs. What do you think about supposed Thieves(etc) being able to turn 100% invisible? Does your opinion of it change between PvE and PvP? Why and how so? Would youchange anything?

I think there should be a detection possibility, especially in pvp.

As it seems to be in some games it literally allows any stealth player to bombard another player with attacks and having the other player to figure out what is happening in seconds in order to "maybe" have a chance to defend/attack.

That coupled with the same "stealth" characters trying to min/max for maxiumum damage and you can have the target lose most to all health so quickly that it doesn't even matter if they try to fight back.

In a real war? Great. In a game? not so much.

Ungood

Ok.. Most stealth in most games,. sucks big fat harry donkey balls, and is OP AF, total bullshit, that can never be balanced well as It ends up being an At-will Invisibility effect, which is just total shit. 

The two games that do it somewhat decent are.

Eternal Crusade: While still OP AF, it does come with some trade off conditions. You have to hold Still to Enter Stealth, and it's timed, you slowly fade away, you cannot instantly blip out of existence as you run away. As you move the stealth lifts, so, you end up needing to walk slowly so the stealth can keep up with your motion, or if you feel the need to sprint, get ready to come into view. Opponents can spot you if they are looking directly at you, you will fade into view if they keep looking at you, scopes speed this up by a great deal, same with Heavies that are targeting. You also need to invest some loadout points to make it more viable.

DDO (Dungeons and Dragons Online): Like the 3.x Edition Table Stop Game, Stealth in DDO is a combined factor of both Move Silently and Hide in Shadows acting against a mobs Spot skill, as well as dealing with armor check penalties. Being in Shadows increases your stealth abilities, and you can see how well hidden you are, based on icons over your head, which adjusts by how well you follow the shadows and keep distance from mobs. You can also see when you got spotted, based on icons over the mobs head. In these case, you end up moving a lot slower, unless you invest into proper enhancements and skills. You also cannot hide while in combat. And there are some mobs with what is called Tremor Sense, which means, you can't hide from them, as they can sense your presence by the vibrations your footfalls make.

Not to mention that there is the spell invisibility in the game, but again, to move, will pit your Move Silently ability against a Mobs Spot ability to hear your footsteps and know where you are, and if you are hit, cast spell, or make an attack, you get exposed. You can also be exposed by mobs that have heighted sense like smell (Counts as Increased Spot - Like Wolves) Tremor Sense (Umber Hulks), or blind mobs that spells like invisibly have no effect on (Like Oozes for example), and the like.

Every other game I have played Stealth amounts to a at-will invisibly effect with no downsides attached, just total trash as far as game balance goes.

cameltosis

Gorwe said:

As a mechanic firstly in MMOs then in RPGs. What do you think about supposed Thieves(etc) being able to turn 100% invisible? Does your opinion of it change between PvE and PvP? Why and how so? Would youchange anything?

I'm totally fine with it, though in my opinion it is simply the easiest way to implement stealth.

It is a simulation.

In real life, stealth is composed of so many different things. Hiding yourself from sight. Learning to be seen and then ignored - blending in with the average people. Avoiding lines of sight. Keeping your noise levels as low as possible. Even making your own smells unnoticable.

Putting all of that into a game takes a lot of effort. Hell, even getting the level of graphics correct so that it is possible to hide in the shadows seems to be next to impossible. You can simulate it against NPCs, but against real people?

Much easier to put invisibility in the game, along with a chance to break through that invisibility. It serves much the same sort of purpose as "real" stealth, just obviously more gamified.

Would I prefer real stealth? Of course. But, totally OK with invisibility. It's not something I engage with often, I did have a burglar and warg in LotRO, but they were both alts. My main in SWTOR was jedi shadow (stealth dps/tank) but the stealth was mostly useless, only good for opening burst damage in PvP.

Scorchien

Dont have a problem with it at all , Matter a fact i enjoyed the systems in different games for exposing them and turning the tables ..

  Every game had/has systems in place to counter stealth , you just need to actualy be prepared aware and use them ..

Ungood

Scorchien said:

Dont have a problem with it at all , Matter a fact i enjoyed the systems in different games for exposing them and turning the tables ..

  Every game had/has systems in place to counter stealth , you just need to actualy be prepared aware and use them ..

This is not true at all.

Case in point. in GW2, only 2 classes have anything that can be used against stealth, Engineers, and Rangers. Everyone else is SOL.

And even then, Engineers and Rangers, only have a 1 shot ability that only temp stops stealth for something as pitiful as 5 seconds, and then the thief can quickly re-stealth, while the cool down for said ability is around 45 seconds. Making these token pitiful counters overall useless.

In fact, IMHO most PvP games have totally lacking mechanics to counter stealth, which is mainly what is wrong with the overall system. If every game put in viable means to counter stealth that would ideally be the best solution.

But the fact that they don't, and just toss out 'Stealth' as this endless on-demand at-will get-out-of-jail-free invisibility card, that is what makes the whole system suck.

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

Ungood

Wargfoot said:

I enjoyed stealth in LOTRO immensely; however, I'd agree that it has to be balanced against other skills in the game.  There were periods in LOTRO PvMP where 6 wargs couldn't take down a single Warden - stealth there didn't mean much.  If the class is weak who cares if it ever comes out of hiding?

I always saw the role of wargs as lurking around the outskirts of the battle waiting for some poor weak thing to limp away or acting as a scout.  I think those are valid roles and don't mind the class being adjusted accordingly.  (The idea of a large dog besting a fully armored warrior is silly, IMHO)

I played a Unreal Tournament mod once called "Thievery" that had an awesome stealth mechanic.  You could go invisible only in shadows - the shadows were often entirely too small to actually hide a human being but you could look over a well lit room and know for sure the possible problem areas.  Probably the best compromise I've seen.  

From my perspective the biggest balance issue in any game is ranged vs. melee.
Usually the game designers give ranged fighters way... and I do mean WAY too much power.  The traditional D&D mage was a glass cannon - that hasn't been the case in any MMORPG I've ever played. 

When it came to balance in LOTRO the pill I never could get past as a melee fighter was the same problem every melee fighter had:

• As a melee fighter you immediately gain the focus fire of every member of the opposing party.
• As a melee fighter you immediately start taking damage types that ranged fighter rarely face: other melee fighters, AOEs, etc.
• As a melee fighter you cannot stand in the middle of friendly NPCs and lodge attacks on the enemy (or do so from the walls of a fort).
• As a melee fighter you're open to more interruption of skills because you're taking more hits.
• As a melee fighter when it comes time to get out it often isn't even possible. (for non stealth classes).
• LOTRO had tab targeting - ranged fighters didn't even have to aim whereas melee classes did.

Ranged classes literally have no downside - most of the soft cloth casters can heal faster than anyone else can damage.

So I get a bit prickly when people bag on stealth when in every game I've ever played the egregious balance issues have always been ranged vs. melee.

Me hates ranged fighters in every game. HATES 'em, me does.

As someone that plays a melee, I tend to notice that the more balanced the Stealth, the better the balance between ranged and melee is, because the developers are trying to a build a sold well balanced game, not some cheap panty-shot simulator to get people to dump money into the cash shop.

Scorchien

Ungood said:

Scorchien said:

Dont have a problem with it at all , Matter a fact i enjoyed the systems in different games for exposing them and turning the tables ..

  Every game had/has systems in place to counter stealth , you just need to actualy be prepared aware and use them ..

This is not true at all.

Case in point. in GW2, only 2 classes have anything that can be used against stealth, Engineers, and Rangers. Everyone else is SOL.

And even then, Engineers and Rangers, only have a 1 shot ability that only temp stops stealth for something as pitiful as 5 seconds, and then the thief can quickly re-stealth, while the cool down for said ability is around 45 seconds. Making these token pitiful counters overall useless.

In fact, IMHO most PvP games have totally lacking mechanics to counter stealth, which is mainly what is wrong with the overall system. If every game put in viable means to counter stealth that would ideally be the best solution.

But the fact that they don't, and just toss out 'Stealth' as this endless on-demand at-will get-out-of-jail-free invisibility card, that is what makes the whole system suck.

One game does not make it NOT True at all.. Matter a fact .. its the outlier here

  Most all games have several classes that can counter stealth ..

 

sidenote , altho my 2 80s in GW2 are my main Engie and a Ranger .. And GW2 is a shit game for RvR anyhow no matter what its shit ..

  Wow, LOTRO, DAOC , War ,UO,Eve, etc.. all have several counters to Stealth

Ungood

Scorchien said:

Ungood said:

Scorchien said:

Dont have a problem with it at all , Matter a fact i enjoyed the systems in different games for exposing them and turning the tables ..

  Every game had/has systems in place to counter stealth , you just need to actualy be prepared aware and use them ..

This is not true at all.

Case in point. in GW2, only 2 classes have anything that can be used against stealth, Engineers, and Rangers. Everyone else is SOL.

And even then, Engineers and Rangers, only have a 1 shot ability that only temp stops stealth for something as pitiful as 5 seconds, and then the thief can quickly re-stealth, while the cool down for said ability is around 45 seconds. Making these token pitiful counters overall useless.

In fact, IMHO most PvP games have totally lacking mechanics to counter stealth, which is mainly what is wrong with the overall system. If every game put in viable means to counter stealth that would ideally be the best solution.

But the fact that they don't, and just toss out 'Stealth' as this endless on-demand at-will get-out-of-jail-free invisibility card, that is what makes the whole system suck.

One game does not make it NOT True at all.. Matter a fact .. its the outlier here

  Most all games have several classes that can counter stealth ..

 

sidenote , altho my 2 80s in GW2 are my main Engie and a Ranger .. And GW2 is a shit game for RvR anyhow no matter what its shit ..

  Wow, LOTRO, DAOC , War ,UO,Eve, etc.. all have several counters to Stealth

Your Claim was "Every Game has/had systems to counter stealth"

And while, yes, GW2, in contrast to actual PvP games, is a soggy shit sandwich, keep in mind, RvR games like Crowfall, also have little to nothing against stealth, and unless they overhaul that system, they will launch with an OP crap stealth system.

So apparently, this is a problem with some MMO's, as such not every game has counters to stealth, and sadly, these games are also in the top 5 of MMO's on the market today.

Ungood

also.. when I played DAOC, it really had nothing against stealth, and me and my static would run behind enemy zergs and kill their healers, for the fun of it. Sure, they had a mechanic where we could not hide once in combat, but, that did nothing to save our targets life, so if it was eq vs eq, we could kill them all in one shot from stealth, and their was pretty much nothing they could do about it. As such, I would be hard pressed to call that a counter.

Scorchien

Ungood said:

Scorchien said:

Ungood said:

Scorchien said:

Dont have a problem with it at all , Matter a fact i enjoyed the systems in different games for exposing them and turning the tables ..

  Every game had/has systems in place to counter stealth , you just need to actualy be prepared aware and use them ..

This is not true at all.

Case in point. in GW2, only 2 classes have anything that can be used against stealth, Engineers, and Rangers. Everyone else is SOL.

And even then, Engineers and Rangers, only have a 1 shot ability that only temp stops stealth for something as pitiful as 5 seconds, and then the thief can quickly re-stealth, while the cool down for said ability is around 45 seconds. Making these token pitiful counters overall useless.

In fact, IMHO most PvP games have totally lacking mechanics to counter stealth, which is mainly what is wrong with the overall system. If every game put in viable means to counter stealth that would ideally be the best solution.

But the fact that they don't, and just toss out 'Stealth' as this endless on-demand at-will get-out-of-jail-free invisibility card, that is what makes the whole system suck.

One game does not make it NOT True at all.. Matter a fact .. its the outlier here

  Most all games have several classes that can counter stealth ..

 

sidenote , altho my 2 80s in GW2 are my main Engie and a Ranger .. And GW2 is a shit game for RvR anyhow no matter what its shit ..

  Wow, LOTRO, DAOC , War ,UO,Eve, etc.. all have several counters to Stealth

Your Claim was "Every Game has/had systems to counter stealth"

And while, yes, GW2, in contrast to actual PvP games, is a soggy shit sandwich, keep in mind, RvR games like Crowfall, also have little to nothing against stealth, and unless they overhaul that system, they will launch with an OP crap stealth system.

So apparently, this is a problem with some MMO's, as such not every game has counters to stealth, and sadly, these games are also in the top 5 of MMO's on the market today.

Crowfall is not release(and not part of this discussion) yet ive been testing for quite  awhile and im not impressed ..

 

 But yes my statement "Every Game has/had systems to counter stealth"

  Still holds true as even the GW2 even in its pathetic RvR state does have some measures vs stealth.. True they are not very strong but they are there ..

  In the other examples they work great , and are numerous ..

  And again , i never had a problem with stealthers in any of the other games ..

   LOTRO, Wow, UO, DAOC, Eve Etc .. the tools are there to counter stealth ..

  One just needs to actually recognize them and use them

Aeander

I see no way to handle stealth in a way that is fun and balanced. The way it's handled now is essentially a cheap ganking tool that usually doubles as a get out of hell free card. It doesn't help that rogue classes are often designed to be PvP powerhouses on top of that.

At a bare minimum, stealth should be impossible while you're already in line of sight.

Ungood

Scorchien said:

Ungood said:

Scorchien said:

Ungood said:

Scorchien said:

Dont have a problem with it at all , Matter a fact i enjoyed the systems in different games for exposing them and turning the tables ..

  Every game had/has systems in place to counter stealth , you just need to actualy be prepared aware and use them ..

This is not true at all.

Case in point. in GW2, only 2 classes have anything that can be used against stealth, Engineers, and Rangers. Everyone else is SOL.

And even then, Engineers and Rangers, only have a 1 shot ability that only temp stops stealth for something as pitiful as 5 seconds, and then the thief can quickly re-stealth, while the cool down for said ability is around 45 seconds. Making these token pitiful counters overall useless.

In fact, IMHO most PvP games have totally lacking mechanics to counter stealth, which is mainly what is wrong with the overall system. If every game put in viable means to counter stealth that would ideally be the best solution.

But the fact that they don't, and just toss out 'Stealth' as this endless on-demand at-will get-out-of-jail-free invisibility card, that is what makes the whole system suck.

One game does not make it NOT True at all.. Matter a fact .. its the outlier here

  Most all games have several classes that can counter stealth ..

 

sidenote , altho my 2 80s in GW2 are my main Engie and a Ranger .. And GW2 is a shit game for RvR anyhow no matter what its shit ..

  Wow, LOTRO, DAOC , War ,UO,Eve, etc.. all have several counters to Stealth

Your Claim was "Every Game has/had systems to counter stealth"

And while, yes, GW2, in contrast to actual PvP games, is a soggy shit sandwich, keep in mind, RvR games like Crowfall, also have little to nothing against stealth, and unless they overhaul that system, they will launch with an OP crap stealth system.

So apparently, this is a problem with some MMO's, as such not every game has counters to stealth, and sadly, these games are also in the top 5 of MMO's on the market today.

Crowfall is not release(and not part of this discussion) yet ive been testing for quite  awhile and im not impressed ..

 

 But yes my statement "Every Game has/had systems to counter stealth"

  Still holds true as even the GW2 even in its pathetic RvR state does have some measures vs stealth.. True they are not very strong but they are there ..

  In the other examples they work great , and are numerous ..

  And again , i never had a problem with stealthers in any of the other games ..

   LOTRO, Wow, UO, DAOC, Eve Etc .. the tools are there to counter stealth ..

  One just needs to actually recognize them and use them

Ok.. Humor me.. what Counter did DAOC have that countered stealth?

Keep in mind, I played that game at launch for a few months (Not long really) and there was jack diddly anyone could really do against a stealth class till after they hit, I know this personal experience, directly as a stealth player, I was never stopped.. ever.. which IMHO, is not a counter.

GW2, offers nothing against Stealth, for the vast majority of it's classes, so that is not what I would call a counter either.

In short.. there are very few, isolated, and often enough not viable tools to combat stealth in the current top games on the market, and almost zero direct counters to stealth, or tools that remove the overwhelming advantage that stealth provides.

Maybe WoW had something viable, I have heard Wow was really no better than GW2 in regards to stealth, but I would love for that to be wrong, and am open to be enlightened what anti-stealth measures WoW provided.

And why other games did not adopt a similar approach.

Ungood

Aeander said:

I see no way to handle stealth in a way that is fun and balanced. The way it's handled now is essentially a cheap ganking tool that usually doubles as a get out of hell free card. It doesn't help that rogue classes are often designed to be PvP powerhouses on top of that.

At a bare minimum, stealth should be impossible while you're already in line of sight.

Easy ways to counter stealth would be Skill Checks, this works ideally with games that have skill progression.

DragonRealms, which was a text game, would pit a players Perception Skill (Which could be worked) against the Hidden players Hide and Stalk skill.

DDO also pits Spot&Search against Hide and Move Silently, and you need to be shadows to hide at all.

DAOC, removed being able to Stealth in combat, so you basically had to be a one trick pony. While this did not counter stealth, it did give the rest of the group the satisfaction of running after and often killing the stealther after it got it's target.

Eternal Crusade, Targeting (Heavy) or Scope (Tactical), allows you to spot hidden players as a vague outline, you may not filly see them, but it is enough to pump bolter fire into them. A player also needs to stand still and can't be in combat to stealth. This is about the most fair PvP system I have seen, but even with this system, Stealth is surprisingly OP in and of it's own right.

While some games are just stupid about it, some games have put in some actual counters.

Quizzical

The basic problem with stealth in MMOs is that the level of utility required to make it useful exceeds the level of utility required to make it annoying, and by a considerable margin.  Thus, games can readily make it annoying but not actually useful, but can't really do the reverse.

Wizardry

Well ANY idea is doable if the people in charge have any kind of wits about them but not likely.

However stealth is just a really bad idea for the obvious reason,it is like auto rewarding that player with first strike every time.That type of advantage means you would be limiting combat is a massive way to keep the stealth player honest.
So imo WHY,why bother incorporating stealth and ruining your combat/game's potential?


Combat is typically done so incredibly poor we end up with gamers all jumping on the action combat bandwagon.It doesn't really change anything because you MUST balance pvp.
So what you end up with is a VERY dull you either hit me for 20 or i hit you for 20 and it cannot vary either way or it is unbalanced.So how would you balance stealth?Give them 20 less hit points to allow for that first FRREE hit?

PVE allows for the best overall game design because you don't need ANY balance.PVP is best done in a single map shooter where the only unbalance is latency.

Po_gg

Wargfoot said:

I enjoyed stealth in LOTRO immensely; however, I'd agree that it has to be balanced against other skills in the game.  There were periods in LOTRO PvMP where 6 wargs couldn't take down a single Warden - stealth there didn't mean much.  
[...]
From my perspective the biggest balance issue in any game is ranged vs. melee.
Usually the game designers give ranged fighters way... and I do mean WAY too much power.  The traditional D&D mage was a glass cannon - that hasn't been the case in any MMORPG I've ever played.

Yep, but that wasn't a stealth issue, not even a warg one... warden was OP as hell

And deliberately so, to add some fuel to the fire.

Turbine said it's a new gameplay (the gambit system), it's different and challenging, but if someone manages to wrestle with it, there will be a nice reward at the end, a real powerhouse character.

They fast reconsidered when wardens started to solo dungeons... not all of them, but many enough for inciting a nerf.

Ranged v melee, in original LotRO it was decent, minstrel barely could level alone, and lore-master wasn't much more durable either. In most games it's similar, I believe. For PvE, that is.

But I guess you mean too much power in pvp...

Which can't be helped, the entire history of "pvp" (war) was about increasing ranged damage. It's always safer to kill from afar.

D&D had a nice balance for it, with the HP and the AC. Mages (especially on the lower levels) indeed were like wet paper towel, while fighters coined the term "tank" with their durability.

Like the trap room scene in the movie Gamers, thief gets one-shotted but can't disarm it, party gets annoyed, sends in Rogar, gets all the damage from the trap right in the face, then (in mocking voice) OH NO, I only have 180 85 HP left

ed. https://youtu.be/oSynJyq2RRo?t=2122  
at least got the 8 right... haven't watched it since ages  

also, is it just me but since the site started shooting flares into the cloud (a few days ago they went to cloudflare) the whole site falls apart? Slow load, icons and boxes everywhere, it looks like they're trying to squeeze things together into a mobile-feed format (and fail in that)

AlBQuirky

cameltosis said:

In real life, stealth is composed of so many different things. Hiding yourself from sight. Learning to be seen and then ignored - blending in with the average people. Avoiding lines of sight. Keeping your noise levels as low as possible. Even making your own smells unnoticable.

That's a good description!