Originally posted by shae Wow, you know, I don't even know where to start with all that Anofalye, I've certainly read your post's before and always thought if anything you were a well read and well worded eloquent individual that had a good dose of common sense... First, when I go looking through lets say; a victoria's secret catalogue, what do I expect to see ? Well I expect to see females in underwear and prices. Do I take offense to that ? What the hell.. of course not because that is the intended purpose for that catalogue, ok sure the females are done up past reality and air brushed into oblivion but who cares, that is what they are there for. I have aboslutely NO PROBLEM with consenting adults advertising in whatever way they see fit (or whichever way works) because in the end it is my decision as a consumer to purchase that product or not. And you are absolutely correct, this young women is very attractive and she absolutely deserves to be a model in any case regardles of this one situation, I love seeing women who are empowered and this is obviously one very empowered female. I could only be so lucky to be so comfortable with my own body. I've not once critisized her for her part in this at all, she is an adult, even if I did have an oppinion on her (which I don't) it would not be my business to say so. Now for my real issue with you comment. You tell me I should concentrate on "real" issues, well this is a very real issue to me. It doesn't have to be an issue for you, that much you've clearly stated, but where do you get off telling me what I should and should not believe in. This has nothing to do with what games (or movies and tv as you went on to include, wth?) teach kids, those are NOT real life and if kids DONT get that then parents need to impart that knowledge. The issue is that SOE is taking a game character (again, which is NOT real life) and putting a real life face to it, THEN putting that face in what I consider to be extremely adult situations. Again, I have no issue with the magazine or the real life adult situations (seriously who cares about that stuff) but where the problem lies it that this is a GAME keep it fiction fine but can you even fantom being in the mind of a 14 year old girl that comes accross this whole thing and think to herself: "Well ok I run into this on tv, movies, magazines and everywhere else and now this girl won because... she's pretty, oh well one more thing telling me exactly how I have to look". And the same goes for the young men, have you even seen the forums on EQ2 on the contest, it's filled with young men Grading the women's breasts, back sides, body's in general, it's absolutely disgusting. Not only did SOE not penalize this behaviour, THEY ARE ENCOURAGING IT !!! That is my issue, nothing else. And as for attacking me personally Anofayle, well I would be an idiot to think that a female could make a blanket statement like I did and not expect responses like the *kiddo* comment you made but then again that is how you learn to either respect someone or not. Many people will obviously not agree with my point of view, probably far more will not but I believe you can dissagree with someone without attacking them personally, I can only assume now that you quite obviously do not.
Very good post Shae and I happen to agree with you on this. MMO's have picked up the fact that sex sells . I have been fairly upset since the Luclin expansion when they turned High Elf women into what looked like vagabond whores in their lingerie. Its only going to go downhill from here. And the saddest part is, this woman isn't going to be noted for her intelligence or inner beauty, just how hot she was. Yes its a great acheivement for her, but also one that is going to trap her into physical appearance all her life.
Smaller issues should never be ignored just because there are what many would consider bigger problems out there. You don't put everything else in the world on hold til one crisis is solved, you work on them all as you can.
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World
Principal: Mr. Madison, what you've just said...is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
Seriously folks this is called marketing. The fact that there is buzz about, regradless of good or bad publicity, proves that it is effective.
Score 1 for the marketing team.
Hey, at least she's not a bubble-headed beach blonde.
I'd much rather pander to sex and sexuality than to violence and abuse, despite the opposite being true in many societies. On the other hand, SOE's strategy of selling sex, while arguably a cheap tactic, is not a surprising one; they have a long and glorious history of doing just that. So what's really the point here?
And another thing, why do people like Shae belittle women for flaunting their good looks? How is looking good different from being good at math, a good pilot, or a master painter? All of those are talents that people have and they want to leverage to their own success. What is so wrong or demeaning about that??
I respect your opinion, but I honestly cant share or approve it. In theory you are right. I will not discuss on this aspect, in fact I think in the same direction. It is only that for you, it request a much higher % of your attention then me, I barely surface the aspect.
However, you do like most of society, you take details and make them priorities. I understand every details matter in the long run, I say so myself. But before fighting hard on details, shoudnt we fight on the real issues?
Kids are way ahead of me on their sexual life as long as they experience it once. I dont see what SoE is doing as that dangerous, maybe it is because of my naivety and my lack of "field experience", but kids are well equip to resist that and call this a "non-lieu" and simply dismiss the case as irrelevant. CNN is hundred of times more dangerous for our kids. And it is certainly easier to cowed CNN then Sony! In Canada, the last time I read or saw a crime involving murder that is more then 3 hours of drive from here...well, I just cant recall the last time. I swap TV on CNN by mistake lately, and I see something that happen FAR away from my home, that I know it is RL, and my mood was ruined and I feel that we lack as a race.
I will exagerate a little. I can listen to Terminator, Jaws, Rocky and whatever for hours, and I am the kindest person. I see those news on CNN and I am boiling and I seek to resolve my problem with violence. Of course I control myself and dont, but if I am tempted, as an addult, after viewing CNN, to use violence as a solution to whatever problem (like an old grumpy person insulting you, I can discard them easily with a laugh on a normal day, if I watch to CNN I have to walk away, kinda angry). If me, a highschool teacher , can be tempted to use violence as a solution after watching CNN, what effect do you think it has on society at large?
SoE evilness at worst will be tempting me to question my high morality choices, there is nothing wrong in this, this questionning is fun anyway. Kids who already lack sex morality in general, should be even more immune to any "nasty" effect.
This is a question of priorities and I honestly fail to see it as a priority...same apply for gay marriage or whatever silly stuff, 2 moms or dads? Oh well, I dont approve, but there are serious issues that needs to be answer before we talk seriously about resolving such small problems IMO.
Someone could say you can do more then 1 task at a time...and even if they are right in theory, in practice if you deny the gays what they request, they will keep arguing and the discussion would only get heavier, distracting overdue attention from real central issues. But it is also a problem in the sense that maybe resolving a smaller problem prevent you from resolving a bigger. If a part of the solution to a critical problem needs you to use the ressources from a smaller problem to overcome it, if you resolve the smaller problem before, you are out of ressources. Example, if a thief live on the corner of your street and is the only person who can arrest a murderer, if you arrest the thief, the murderer goes away. If you arrest the murderer, after you can re-habilitate the thief rather then arresting him, since he was helpful.
Cars are dangerous, how many cars accidents we get every year? And the pollution...and still, we didnt put a better alternative after almost a century of suffering from that modern plague. I dont want my family breathing those gaz, or been life threaten by drivers who are more or less knowing how to drive properly.
Oh well...
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Originally posted by aeric67 And another thing, why do people like Shae belittle women for flaunting their good looks? How is looking good different from being good at math, a good pilot, or a master painter? All of those are talents that people have and they want to leverage to their own success. What is so wrong or demeaning about that??
Ok, math and flying an airplane and painting are skills and talents. Standing there in a skimpy outfit is not. Having huge breasts is NOT a talent LOL.
But Shae was NOT and I repeat NOT belittling that woman for flaunting her body in any way. She was pointing out how sad it is that Sony is using a Soft-core porn magazine to get a little free hype for their game. Get it? Now get over it .
Originally posted by shae And as for attacking me personally Anofayle, well I would be an idiot to think that a female could make a blanket statement like I did and not expect responses like the *kiddo* comment you made but then again that is how you learn to either respect someone or not. Many people will obviously not agree with my point of view, probably far more will not but I believe you can dissagree with someone without attacking them personally, I can only assume now that you quite obviously do not.
At least it was under some ** and a funny indicator. If you want to take it cash and $ it, sure! You are the only person to decide what you will be doing.
But I am not taking this comment as $, I am pretty sure that like me, everything to win an argument is a good bullet! Which I can only and respect...I think I serve this type of argument to Fade-us a few times! My turn to be served! Well done!
(if Fadeus would not have support you, I would prolly have buy it for $ however...but the strongest SoE supporter on this site not supporting SoE bring me to the conclusion...he prolly hate me more then he like SoE! Yet it made me think about it...and thinking is always a blessing.)
My "exasperation" is prolly because I think we waste to much already far from real issues...*cry*
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Fadeus: Thanks for taking the time to chime in and I completely agree with the point you made. Mudde: I don't think anyone is denying the fact this is about marketing, actually I think that's a fairly obvious point. Rather I think we need to look at the "type" of marketing it is and who it's affecting and alienating. Anofalye: As I said in my initial reply to you, from the post's I've read of yours I've always thought that you a quality member of the community here, just because you disagree with me I certainly would not think any less on those terms. I also hope you know that I do in fact see your point, of course there are larger issues in the world, children are starving, families are having a hard time making ends meet, wars are being fought and the list goes on and on. With all these things happening does this one particular relatively small issue need to be of concern to you, maybe yes and maybe no BUT does it need to be of concern to me ? Absolutely. It's of concern to me because as a female I've been pandered sexuality and the images of such since I was 12 from absolutely everywhere around me, that is just a fact of life that as a young women you learn very quickly. But as a (female)-gamer I looked to games as more or less "equal" footing. Was I sold an imagery and sexual connotation in video games, of course I was but the fact remained that it was NOT real and so I could escape that, I could enjoy the game just the same as the boys that were around me, not having to worry about my image as a female while I did. I personally feel there is a huge future for females in gaming, as do many others, and I also feel we are just beginning to see the start of that era but with this new insurgent marketing device such as shown by this very contest hosted by SOE, how many young female gamers of the future will be granted that same level playing field that I so enjoyed ? It's a hard-line to draw and a difficult future to see, but this is why this subject is near to my heart and why I speak and post on it when I have the chance.
Originally posted by anarchyart Originally posted by aeric67 And another thing, why do people like Shae belittle women for flaunting their good looks? How is looking good different from being good at math, a good pilot, or a master painter? All of those are talents that people have and they want to leverage to their own success. What is so wrong or demeaning about that?? Ok, math and flying an airplane and painting are skills and talents. Standing there in a skimpy outfit is not. Having huge breasts is NOT a talent LOL. But Shae was NOT and I repeat NOT belittling that woman for flaunting her body in any way. She was pointing out how sad it is that Sony is using a Soft-core porn magazine to get a little free hype for their game. Get it? Now get over it .
Yeah, I generalized a bit. I was talking about people like him/her, but whatever.
I still disagree with you about the looks thing. Looking good takes work, just like math or whatever. Who chooses that skimpy outfit? The choice of makeup? The surgeon who did the boob job (if that is part of your package)? What about math? The formula and path to the solution, the calculator or tool used to complete it, whatever. It's something that some are good at and some aren't. It's a talent, dude. Some people are born with looks, some people are born good at logic and math.
Where's the real difference besides what you choose to trivialize or not?
Originally posted by aeric67 Yeah, I generalized a bit. I was talking about people like him/her, but whatever.I still disagree with you about the looks thing. Looking good takes work, just like math or whatever. Who chooses that skimpy outfit? The choice of makeup? The surgeon who did the boob job (if that is part of your package)? What about math? The formula and path to the solution, the calculator or tool used to complete it, whatever. It's something that some are good at and some aren't. It's a talent, dude. Some people are born with looks, some people are born good at logic and math. Where's the real difference besides what you choose to trivialize or not?
That is excessively shallow.
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World
Originally posted by aeric67 Care to explain? Or is it not deserving enough of your attention to justify more than a one line response?
Nothing to explain. To sit and compare the vain'ness of plastic surgery with the talent or art is extremely shallow. To sit and compare using your looks to get your farther is extremely shallow and vain.
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World
I don't recall mentioning ethics at all. Math and looks can be both used for things people might frown upon. They can both be flaunted vainly or used for their own merits... Think about those "vain" math geeks who ridiculed others for not getting it in Calculus, trying to impress with their quick responses and solutions... Now think of the hottie who would never give you a glance and would just as soon step on you as say "hi" because you didn't streak your hair and wear Abercrombie & Fitch... Both examples of the potential vanity and resultant snootiness that any talent can bring about.
All I am trying to get across is that if someone is "good" at looking good, then how can we fault them for using it in their lives (like Miss Antonia)? Same with someone who is "good" at math and takes advantage of that.
If they use it for good or evil is another discussion altogether...
I thought "news" about companys getting a look-a-like model for their game where done for after Tomb Raider, apparently not. Is mmorpg.com going to post more (proffessional/paid) cosplay models or stick to real news?
Comments
/sarcasm on
I think every game should have nipple plates and chain-strings for women!
I don't play mmorpgs to watch overdressed women running around!
/sarcasm off
Very good post Shae and I happen to agree with you on this. MMO's have picked up the fact that sex sells . I have been fairly upset since the Luclin expansion when they turned High Elf women into what looked like vagabond whores in their lingerie. Its only going to go downhill from here. And the saddest part is, this woman isn't going to be noted for her intelligence or inner beauty, just how hot she was. Yes its a great acheivement for her, but also one that is going to trap her into physical appearance all her life.
Smaller issues should never be ignored just because there are what many would consider bigger problems out there. You don't put everything else in the world on hold til one crisis is solved, you work on them all as you can.
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World
Principal: Mr. Madison, what you've just said...is one of the most insanely
idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent
response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational
thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I
award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
Seriously folks this is called marketing. The fact that there is buzz about, regradless of good or bad publicity, proves that it is effective.
Score 1 for the marketing team.
Hey, at least she's not a bubble-headed beach blonde.
My name is...
I'd much rather pander to sex and sexuality than to violence and abuse, despite the opposite being true in many societies. On the other hand, SOE's strategy of selling sex, while arguably a cheap tactic, is not a surprising one; they have a long and glorious history of doing just that. So what's really the point here?
And another thing, why do people like Shae belittle women for flaunting their good looks? How is looking good different from being good at math, a good pilot, or a master painter? All of those are talents that people have and they want to leverage to their own success. What is so wrong or demeaning about that??
Discussion forums are for discussing things, dude. Get over yourself.
Shae,
I respect your opinion, but I honestly cant share or approve it. In theory you are right. I will not discuss on this aspect, in fact I think in the same direction. It is only that for you, it request a much higher % of your attention then me, I barely surface the aspect.
However, you do like most of society, you take details and make them priorities. I understand every details matter in the long run, I say so myself. But before fighting hard on details, shoudnt we fight on the real issues?
Kids are way ahead of me on their sexual life as long as they experience it once. I dont see what SoE is doing as that dangerous, maybe it is because of my naivety and my lack of "field experience", but kids are well equip to resist that and call this a "non-lieu" and simply dismiss the case as irrelevant. CNN is hundred of times more dangerous for our kids. And it is certainly easier to cowed CNN then Sony! In Canada, the last time I read or saw a crime involving murder that is more then 3 hours of drive from here...well, I just cant recall the last time. I swap TV on CNN by mistake lately, and I see something that happen FAR away from my home, that I know it is RL, and my mood was ruined and I feel that we lack as a race.
I will exagerate a little. I can listen to Terminator, Jaws, Rocky and whatever for hours, and I am the kindest person. I see those news on CNN and I am boiling and I seek to resolve my problem with violence. Of course I control myself and dont, but if I am tempted, as an addult, after viewing CNN, to use violence as a solution to whatever problem (like an old grumpy person insulting you, I can discard them easily with a laugh on a normal day, if I watch to CNN I have to walk away, kinda angry). If me, a highschool teacher , can be tempted to use violence as a solution after watching CNN, what effect do you think it has on society at large?
SoE evilness at worst will be tempting me to question my high morality choices, there is nothing wrong in this, this questionning is fun anyway. Kids who already lack sex morality in general, should be even more immune to any "nasty" effect.
This is a question of priorities and I honestly fail to see it as a priority...same apply for gay marriage or whatever silly stuff, 2 moms or dads? Oh well, I dont approve, but there are serious issues that needs to be answer before we talk seriously about resolving such small problems IMO.
Someone could say you can do more then 1 task at a time...and even if they are right in theory, in practice if you deny the gays what they request, they will keep arguing and the discussion would only get heavier, distracting overdue attention from real central issues. But it is also a problem in the sense that maybe resolving a smaller problem prevent you from resolving a bigger. If a part of the solution to a critical problem needs you to use the ressources from a smaller problem to overcome it, if you resolve the smaller problem before, you are out of ressources. Example, if a thief live on the corner of your street and is the only person who can arrest a murderer, if you arrest the thief, the murderer goes away. If you arrest the murderer, after you can re-habilitate the thief rather then arresting him, since he was helpful.
Cars are dangerous, how many cars accidents we get every year? And the pollution...and still, we didnt put a better alternative after almost a century of suffering from that modern plague. I dont want my family breathing those gaz, or been life threaten by drivers who are more or less knowing how to drive properly.
Oh well...
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Ok, math and flying an airplane and painting are skills and talents. Standing there in a skimpy outfit is not. Having huge breasts is NOT a talent LOL.
But Shae was NOT and I repeat NOT belittling that woman for flaunting her body in any way. She was pointing out how sad it is that Sony is using a Soft-core porn magazine to get a little free hype for their game. Get it? Now get over it
.
But I am not taking this comment as $, I am pretty sure that like me, everything to win an argument is a good bullet!
Which I can only 
and respect...I think I serve this type of argument to Fade-us a few times! My turn to be served! Well done!
(if Fadeus would not have support you, I would prolly have buy it for $ however...but the strongest SoE supporter on this site not supporting SoE bring me to the conclusion...he prolly hate me more then he like SoE!
Yet it made me think about it...and thinking is always a blessing.)
My "exasperation" is prolly because I think we waste to much already far from real issues...*cry*
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
-In memory of Laura "Taera" Genender. Passed away on Aug/13/08-
|
RISING DRAGOON ~AION US ONLINE LEGION for Elyos
Fadeus: Thanks for taking the time to chime in and I completely agree with the point you made.
Mudde: I don't think anyone is denying the fact this is about marketing, actually I think that's a fairly obvious point. Rather I think we need to look at the "type" of marketing it is and who it's affecting and alienating.
Anofalye: As I said in my initial reply to you, from the post's I've read of yours I've always thought that you a quality member of the community here, just because you disagree with me I certainly would not think any less on those terms.
I also hope you know that I do in fact see your point, of course there are larger issues in the world, children are starving, families are having a hard time making ends meet, wars are being fought and the list goes on and on. With all these things happening does this one particular relatively small issue need to be of concern to you, maybe yes and maybe no BUT does it need to be of concern to me ? Absolutely.
It's of concern to me because as a female I've been pandered sexuality and the images of such since I was 12 from absolutely everywhere around me, that is just a fact of life that as a young women you learn very quickly. But as a (female)-gamer I looked to games as more or less "equal" footing. Was I sold an imagery and sexual connotation in video games, of course I was but the fact remained that it was NOT real and so I could escape that, I could enjoy the game just the same as the boys that were around me, not having to worry about my image as a female while I did.
I personally feel there is a huge future for females in gaming, as do many others, and I also feel we are just beginning to see the start of that era but with this new insurgent marketing device such as shown by this very contest hosted by SOE, how many young female gamers of the future will be granted that same level playing field that I so enjoyed ?
It's a hard-line to draw and a difficult future to see, but this is why this subject is near to my heart and why I speak and post on it when I have the chance.
Important Information regarding Posting and You
Yeah, I generalized a bit. I was talking about people like him/her, but whatever.
I still disagree with you about the looks thing. Looking good takes work, just like math or whatever. Who chooses that skimpy outfit? The choice of makeup? The surgeon who did the boob job (if that is part of your package)? What about math? The formula and path to the solution, the calculator or tool used to complete it, whatever. It's something that some are good at and some aren't. It's a talent, dude. Some people are born with looks, some people are born good at logic and math.
Where's the real difference besides what you choose to trivialize or not?
That is excessively shallow.
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World
Care to explain? Or is it not deserving enough of your attention to justify more than a one line response?
Nothing to explain. To sit and compare the vain'ness of plastic surgery with the talent or art is extremely shallow. To sit and compare using your looks to get your farther is extremely shallow and vain.
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World
I don't recall mentioning ethics at all. Math and looks can be both used for things people might frown upon. They can both be flaunted vainly or used for their own merits... Think about those "vain" math geeks who ridiculed others for not getting it in Calculus, trying to impress with their quick responses and solutions... Now think of the hottie who would never give you a glance and would just as soon step on you as say "hi" because you didn't streak your hair and wear Abercrombie & Fitch... Both examples of the potential vanity and resultant snootiness that any talent can bring about.
All I am trying to get across is that if someone is "good" at looking good, then how can we fault them for using it in their lives (like Miss Antonia)? Same with someone who is "good" at math and takes advantage of that.
If they use it for good or evil is another discussion altogether...
I thought "news" about companys getting a look-a-like model for their game where done for after Tomb Raider, apparently not.
Is mmorpg.com going to post more (proffessional/paid) cosplay models or stick to real news?