I think Apple is a monopoly period. People have to pay for development kits and then also pay them 30% off the top, just to have their apps in the store.
Earlier, an Engineer for Apple stated, under oath, that there is too much malware on the Apple ecosystem. He blames getting apps from other sources as the reason, not that their software has bugs. flaws, etc. This is part of Apple's reasoning for charging 30% off the top.
I hope Apple loses it's shirt. I don't want Epic to win but Apple is surely arrogant about it.
Here's the thing. An Epic win essentially makes the walled garden model utilized by consoles illegal. I'm sure the PC-centric crowd would love that, but that isn't good for the consumer. The curated walled garden is something that some of us prefer and should have the option to seek out.
I mean, Windows got in trouble for Internet Explorer. How can Apple have total control over everything on the platform and it be allowed.
I guess the same way that Microsoft, Sony and Nintendo have total control over their consoles. Apples way of doing things is pretty well established, it only only becomes a problem when market share gets too high.
If Apple has to open up their operating system to other stores, then all the console makers will also have to follow suit and that will have major consequences. I just can't see that happening as a result of this case.
I don't mind being wrong though! It would certainly be an interesting shift in the industry, and as part of the PC Master Race, I can just watch from the sidelines :P
Console makers wouldn't automatically have to open up their systems even if Apple would be forced to open theirs.
Consoles are a bit different, and they would have a bit different arguments in court as to why they don't need to open their systems. One important difference is that there are people who have multiple gaming consoles so that they can play games published on different platforms, and buying a console to play its exclusive games is a thing. Whereas you don't really have IPhone users who'd buy an Android and start carrying another mobile phone around for some Android exclusive app.
If Apple is forced to open up their systems, consoles might or might not be forced to do it. It'd need another trial for drawing the line.
These are all subjective arguments, not legal ones. The courts may not care about any of these practical concerns. And indeed, we have already seen a piggyback class action against Sony.
The courts do care about practical concerns when they try to determine whether something is a monopoly or not.
This whole trial is mostly about practical concerns like whether Apple is competing against Google's store, whether Apple is making huge profits, etc. Those practical concerns are then used by the court when they determine the answer to question is Apple running a monopoly or not.
It’s easy enough to switch phone manufacturers and/or service providers, just as easy as getting a new console if we haven’t fucked our credit all up.
If I supply the raw material in the work I do, I have a 20% markup. That’s just standard fare. Now 30% is on the high side of 20% and it’s up to us individually whether we’re going to support that.
Maybe it’s time to overhaul copyright law and bring it up to the times. It’s a little antiquated, bring it in line with a patent, pen it up. The lion’s share is nothing more than throw away consumer items anyways.
East India Company, Hudson Bay Company… and on until today. When Companies get too big, governments of all stripes break them up.
I mean, Windows got in trouble for Internet Explorer. How can Apple have total control over everything on the platform and it be allowed.
I guess the same way that Microsoft, Sony and Nintendo have total control over their consoles. Apples way of doing things is pretty well established, it only only becomes a problem when market share gets too high.
If Apple has to open up their operating system to other stores, then all the console makers will also have to follow suit and that will have major consequences. I just can't see that happening as a result of this case.
I don't mind being wrong though! It would certainly be an interesting shift in the industry, and as part of the PC Master Race, I can just watch from the sidelines :P
Not the case - you can buy games from the companies making the game. With Apple, you cannot - plain and simple.
I know you can buy physical copies from a multitude of vendors
But, aren't the digital stores still locked to the ecosystem?
The main thing though is that all games have to go through the console makers approval and vetting process. If you want to sell a game on the Xbox, then Microsoft has to review it, along with all patches, and Microsoft charges developers for the priveledge.
Most of that cost comes from a cut of the sales - even if you buy a boxed copy of the game direct from the developer, MS / Sony / Nintendo still gets a cut of that sale. Some of that cost comes from directly charging the developers - when I worked in the industry, MS charged £25k to review each patch after the first one.
This is the reason that consoles are as cheap as they are and why Microsoft sells Xboxs at a loss: they make most of their money from taking a cut of each software sale.
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iDevices are just game consoles in a different form factor. I don't think that the business model that game console manufacturers have been using for decades becomes illegal just because Apple uses it for devices in a different form factor.
Sony/Nintendo/etc. do not require all software for their devices to come from their store; you can buy from Gamestop, Best Buys, Target, Walmart, etc. That Apple want to direct all retail sales through its store, even for products it didn't make is the objectionable part, at least for me.
The console manufacturers take a cut of sales no matter which store you buy it through. That is the console business model and has been since the very start.
The real dispute between Apple and Epic isn't about which store things are sold through. It's about Apple wanting to make sure that they get their cut of sales.
Still no decision handed down? Anyone heard a date as to when the judge will give a decision?
Judge said it should be 4-6 weeks away, but it could take longer.
On top of the weeks of testimony given in court, she has to review mountains of written evidence too. It's gonna take her a while.
We might get some preliminary judgements before then. For example, Epic argued that the iOS ecosystem is an "essential facility" in their initial filing and that denying Epic access is illegal. However, Epic basically didn't argue this point and their own expert witness said this arguement was wrong. The judge even pushed Epic on this arguement, and Epic had nothing. Apple have therefore filed for an early judgement on this specific arguement.
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Still no decision handed down? Anyone heard a date as to when the judge will give a decision?
Judge said it should be 4-6 weeks away, but it could take longer.
On top of the weeks of testimony given in court, she has to review mountains of written evidence too. It's gonna take her a while.
We might get some preliminary judgements before then. For example, Epic argued that the iOS ecosystem is an "essential facility" in their initial filing and that denying Epic access is illegal. However, Epic basically didn't argue this point and their own expert witness said this arguement was wrong. The judge even pushed Epic on this arguement, and Epic had nothing. Apple have therefore filed for an early judgement on this specific arguement.
Ok didnt know there was so much info for one judge to have to review. Thanks for that update.
Something tells me the supreme court will eventually hear the case and will side with Apple.
Apple already won
The judge ruled in Apples favour in 9 out of 10 of the issues being argued in court.
The only thing Epic won is regarding in-app purchases. The wording is very confusing, but basically apps can now link you to external websites where you can make a purchase for something in the app. I'm not sure if they're allowed to do direct in-app purchases or not, but devs can definitely now bypass Apple's payment system for in-app stuff.
But, Apple is still allowed to have the only app store for their ecosystem
Epic is still banned from the Apple store
Apple is still allowed to ban apps if they break their rules.
Most importantly, the judge ruled that Apple's app store is not a monopoly. That is really the biggest outcome of the case and completely screws over Epic's future plans. This means that the Xbox store, the Playstation store and others are also not a monopoly, which means Epic can't force their plans onto consoles, nor can they force other companies to accept their games if those games don't match their standards. You will not be finding an Epic store on your xbox!
Also, surprisingly, the outcome basically matches my prediction from earlier in the year! That doesn't happen as often as I'd like, especially not when it comes to legal stuff.
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Something tells me the supreme court will eventually hear the case and will side with Apple.
Apple already won
The judge ruled in Apples favour in 9 out of 10 of the issues being argued in court.
The only thing Epic won is regarding in-app purchases. The wording is very confusing, but basically apps can now link you to external websites where you can make a purchase for something in the app. I'm not sure if they're allowed to do direct in-app purchases or not, but devs can definitely now bypass Apple's payment system for in-app stuff.
But, Apple is still allowed to have the only app store for their ecosystem
Epic is still banned from the Apple store
Apple is still allowed to ban apps if they break their rules.
Most importantly, the judge ruled that Apple's app store is not a monopoly. That is really the biggest outcome of the case and completely screws over Epic's future plans. This means that the Xbox store, the Playstation store and others are also not a monopoly, which means Epic can't force their plans onto consoles, nor can they force other companies to accept their games if those games don't match their standards. You will not be finding an Epic store on your xbox!
Also, surprisingly, the outcome basically matches my prediction from earlier in the year! That doesn't happen as often as I'd like, especially not when it comes to legal stuff.
So if it's a f2p game with MTX, Apple gets the initial payment to list it but collects nothing from all of the MTX that keeps the game going. That's still a pretty big L for Apple overall unless they charge exorbitant prices to list a game on the store. It just won't get Epic on the platform.
Laws need to be passed if things are to change in terms of ecosystem monopolies. But the republicans and the filibuster will prevent that from happening.
I do wonder how antitrust relates to Google/Apple controlling the market AND using very similar practices and prices for devs. Neither is a monopoly but combined, and possibly colluded, that's an interesting issue.
Something tells me the supreme court will eventually hear the case and will side with Apple.
Apple already won...
It was more like Apple lost:
Apple managed to retain their exclusive right for downloads only app store, but if we look at Android and Google Play, even without that exclusivity other stores and other download sources have remained marginal. So that exclusivity isn't really such a big deal.
Now if this ruling remains in effect, Apple and also likely Google lose their right to prevent app makers from mentioning other payment sources. That might actually be the biggest possible loss for them, since we don't know how effectively app makers could entice people to use some other payment system.
Imagine something like the app's purchase buttons linking to Paypal's website where you confirm your payment.
Epic didn't really win since Epic can't launch their own Epic app store (though they've not launched one on Android either so I don't know if it was their aim), but if the judgement stands Apple and Google definitely lost a lot.
So if it's a f2p game with MTX, Apple gets the initial payment to list it but collects nothing from all of the MTX that keeps the game going. That's still a pretty big L for Apple overall unless they charge exorbitant prices to list a game on the store. It just won't get Epic on the platform.
Laws need to be passed if things are to change in terms of ecosystem monopolies. But the republicans and the filibuster will prevent that from happening.
I do wonder how antitrust relates to Google/Apple controlling the market AND using very similar practices and prices for devs. Neither is a monopoly but combined, and possibly colluded, that's an interesting issue.
Apple will still collect a cut of all MTX payments that continue to use Apples payment system. That option will remain the easiest to use for both developers and customers.
But, devs can now create a full-on account system and their own MTX store to bypass Apple. That will save the developer money in terms of fees, but cost a lot more in terms of dev costs. It will also be a lot less userfriendly.
So, yeh, Apple will inevitably lose out on some of the money they are currently earning, but not a huge amount in the grand scheme of things.
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This whole trial is mostly about practical concerns like whether Apple is competing against Google's store, whether Apple is making huge profits, etc. Those practical concerns are then used by the court when they determine the answer to question is Apple running a monopoly or not.
Maybe it’s time to overhaul copyright law and bring it up to the times. It’s a little antiquated, bring it in line with a patent, pen it up. The lion’s share is nothing more than throw away consumer items anyways.
East India Company, Hudson Bay Company… and on until today. When Companies get too big, governments of all stripes break them up.
Monopoly? no
Too big? maybe
Imho
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
The real dispute between Apple and Epic isn't about which store things are sold through. It's about Apple wanting to make sure that they get their cut of sales.
Ok didnt know there was so much info for one judge to have to review. Thanks for that update.
Judge: Apple has 90 days to open app store payments
Laws need to be passed if things are to change in terms of ecosystem monopolies. But the republicans and the filibuster will prevent that from happening.
I do wonder how antitrust relates to Google/Apple controlling the market AND using very similar practices and prices for devs. Neither is a monopoly but combined, and possibly colluded, that's an interesting issue.
Apple managed to retain their exclusive right for downloads only app store, but if we look at Android and Google Play, even without that exclusivity other stores and other download sources have remained marginal. So that exclusivity isn't really such a big deal.
Now if this ruling remains in effect, Apple and also likely Google lose their right to prevent app makers from mentioning other payment sources. That might actually be the biggest possible loss for them, since we don't know how effectively app makers could entice people to use some other payment system.
Imagine something like the app's purchase buttons linking to Paypal's website where you confirm your payment.
Epic didn't really win since Epic can't launch their own Epic app store (though they've not launched one on Android either so I don't know if it was their aim), but if the judgement stands Apple and Google definitely lost a lot.
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.