However, on the flip side of this, When your decision puts your only means of income into a direct decline, results in hundreds of people within your company losing their jobs, and you directly being forced to resign from your position.. yes.. that would be the textbook exampleof making a bad decision.
But it's important to note that they did whatever they did because they "thought" it was a good decision.
So yeah, companies make decisions that turn out to be bad. That's life.
This is true, but, the point I am making is that they "thought" it was a good decision because of what the Vocal Minority told them on their social media outlets.
Hence our discussion about Trusting the Community.
Dead Ass, I have no idea what metrics they had that told them the changes they made in HoT would be anything other than a train wreck, since it turned out to be most moronic move they could have made.
I cannot imagine they had a pile of actual factual data that told them that this would in any way be a good idea, and they were not simply swayed by the vocal minority making a huge fuss on their social media accounts that these changes were what they wanted.
To their credit however, after HoT, and the outrage by the Casuals, they stuck to their guns, and made sure that their bad decision would only get worse and worse as time went on.
I cannot for the life me respect that they had any hard data that told them this was going to end well, given how bad it went.
To the point of the thread and "trusting the community" along with developers listening to the vocal minority (or majority), No company is going to change its stance on something based on people rushing to a forum and complaining or demanding. They very well could look into it, especially if it's a good company that is concerned about any issues.
This is actually flat out false, and I have personally witnessed this happen a few times with Turbine/Standing Stone Games.
The most memorable moment was the "Bridge Sit In" where players were protesting a game change, and Turbine opted to reverse their decision.
Another event that happened was, well with the Wizard Nerf, where people went to forums to complain that the new Trait Line made Wizards too powerful, and within a week Turbine nerfed them, and while the Nerf was not that big a deal in and of itself, they opted to piss into the fire telling the now nerfed wizards to just deal with it and buy the respec token.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
However, on the flip side of this, When your decision puts your only means of income into a direct decline, results in hundreds of people within your company losing their jobs, and you directly being forced to resign from your position.. yes.. that would be the textbook exampleof making a bad decision.
But it's important to note that they did whatever they did because they "thought" it was a good decision.
So yeah, companies make decisions that turn out to be bad. That's life.
This is true, but, the point I am making is that they "thought" it was a good decision because of what the Vocal Minority told them on their social media outlets.
Hence our discussion about Trusting the Community.
I just don't buy that. Because with that logic, all you would have to do is get an equally vocal group and then steer it the way you wanted.
As far as how they make their decisions and their "metrics" just because their decisions don't align with what you think they should or shouldn't have done doesn't mean they didn't have data to follow.
Because then all you're doing is monday morning quarterbacking.
Post edited by Sovrath on
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
You can't trust the community, but that doesn't mean that they don't have some good ideas. What I find most interesting is that some developers seem to always think they know better.
Gamers choose sweets and candy over meats and vegetables. One reason metrics kind of fucked the industry. How novel, players will choose to do the easiest fastest things. Let's make everything fast and easy.
However, on the flip side of this, When your decision puts your only means of income into a direct decline, results in hundreds of people within your company losing their jobs, and you directly being forced to resign from your position.. yes.. that would be the textbook exampleof making a bad decision.
But it's important to note that they did whatever they did because they "thought" it was a good decision.
So yeah, companies make decisions that turn out to be bad. That's life.
This is true, but, the point I am making is that they "thought" it was a good decision because of what the Vocal Minority told them on their social media outlets.
Hence our discussion about Trusting the Community.
I just don't buy that. Because with that logic, all you would have to do is get an equally vocal group and then steer it the way you wanted.
As far as how they make their decisions and their "metrics" just because their decisions don't align with what you think they should or shouldn't have done doesn't mean they didn't have data to follow.
Because then all you're doing is monday morning quarterbacking.
A few points:
Lets get something clear, It's not what I think they should or should not have done, keep in mind, I was not some whale dumping millions into their game every quarter, I was some peon bloke spending a measly $40 a month. So obviously my staying or going in the grand scheme of things, was totally irrelevant.
So if they had metrics that told them, flipping me the bird and telling to me to "deal or GTFO" was a good plan, then kudos to them, but I highly doubt they had any metrics that told them pissing off whatever demographic they pissed off with HoT, was going to be a good thing on any level.
While I had no clout in this situation, or control over it, it simply was what happened, but they started to bleed income, and I mean, that very next quarter the damage was being done. Their income took a direct dive, and is still going down to this day.
That is what really matters in regards to if they made a good or bad choice. Not if they annoyed me directly. but if they hurt their company and brand, which, they did.
I mean legit, if they had real metrics to go by, they should have had something solid to show that this plan was not going to shoot their balls off. They would legit not be able to do that level of damage to their own product if they had metrics to go by. The hard reality is this, If you have Solid metrics, it's not a guessing game where mistakes like that are made.
Those kinds of mistakes happen when you don't really know what will happen, when you don't have the metrics to know what the windfall of this action will be, and that is why I think they were just listening to the vocal minority, and really had no idea how bad their idea was going to pan out.
As I cannot believe someone who knew that level of damage would be done.. would still willingly do it. I suppose the one counter argument could be, they were trying to kill the company and the game because they got into a piss fight with NCSoft execs, and this was their way of flipping them the bird.. there is that possibility.
NGL, that's Real shit way to flex your peen tho, getting a bunch of innocent people that were just doing their job fired because of an ego spat.
As for the "Counter Vocal Group" point.
To be fair, this did happen, for a short time, their reddit and main forms exploded with people coming out of the woodwork, saying this was a bad idea, that this will hurt and ruin the game. The people that had been vocal about wanting raids attacked them, down voted posts on reddit into oblivion, and even went so far as to harass them in game. Since, lets be honest, they were casuals, and thus, they did what casuals do... walked away.
ESO just came out the previous year, I am sure they enjoyed that influx of players looking for a new game and the income that came with it.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Even though you are a member of the community we do Gorwe.
Long, long before CF game project developers started using this as a way of making fans think they had real input the community has been a problem. By that I mean the official forum community.
While the forum/online community can work wonders for a game it also has a big negatives.Perhaps the earliest being pushing developers into making constant class changes as players would send in complaint after complaint about the over powered classes of other players. This is still an issue, just not as big as it was and that's because MMOs have moved to make classes as similar as possible.
The amount of control players have on a developing game is marginal, but it pays well to make them think they have a lot. We even now have members of the community who are "content creators" who are not making any content. That's how farcical it has become.
Ok, so as it is. To define few things first:
1. I like to have control over things I do(this includes using trainers or mods to make the game I play more fun)
2. I like efficiency and actually getting shit done properly(=no wipes because reason x unless that reason is inexperience etc)
3. Thus, quite unsurprisingly, I am not really an MMO player. I mean, I am, but how I play them really isn't what they're built for(or shouldn't anyhow)
With that said, let's turn to the topic of community. Again, we need to differentiate between small scale and large scale community.
Small scale: These I tend to trust(but not blindly). Because I often research and find like minded individuals. This category can also include highly skilled players etc(I am for meritocracy after all).
Large scale: This is actually a complicated topic and I could just say: "they could die for all I care", but it's not that simple. These I don't trust(Pick Up Groups and the like), but they have their purpose. And that purpose serves me well, so I mostly treat them as nothing more than tools.
So, do I trust community? Yes, if they show knowledge and merit. Otherwise, no, not really. I can, but I usually don't.
The weird thing is before GW2 added raids, I don't even remember people discussing about it.
I dont' know what prompt Anet decision to add raid in the game. Worse yet, lock gear behind raid only.
There was an on going push for more challenge in GW2 by a vocal minority on their social media sites, mainly reddit and their main forums since the very start. Personally, 2 of the 5 guilds I was in, there was always some discussion going on about needing more challenge, wanting raids, and the like.
This is why Teq and Shatter got an overhaul to make them harder, TTT was put in, etc. Dungeons had received some minor changes to make them harder, like the removal being able to raise if the group was in combat.
There was also a push for gear grind, this was why Fractals and Ascended gear and infusions were put in (Originally the game capped with Exotic). As for the gear lock, I think they tested the waters with that idea by locking the Legendary back Item Ad Infinium behind T4 Fractals, and there was not nearly as much push-back for that one.
There was also, obviously metrics to show that added challenge was not a good idea, hence why they mainly removed the temple opening quests, and broke apart Fractals so that you didn't need to run 4 in a row to do a single fractal.
HoT was pretty much a full on expansion of GW2/Anet catering and pandering to their population of hardcore player base. There were many on the forums and reddit cheering it as the best expansion ever, and thanking Anet for basically pissing on their causal base.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
I prefer to outplay the situation at hand on my own merits, with as little outside help as possible. That is if I care about that activity. Otherwise, I will simply let you take care of that thing and reap the rewards. Note: just because I fret about a process doesn't necessarily mean I enjoy it. It's...complicated. But one thing is not complicated at all: if I don't fret about a thing(at all), chances that I don't care about it are approx 100%.
Ive been saying since 1999 that the hardcore raiding element of the playerbase has been actively destroying these games through concentrated whining and lobbying.
Ive been calling it "raid culture" but it is also known as "raid or die". Its has completely poisoned and destroyed mmo's.
Ive been saying since 1999 that the hardcore raiding element of the playerbase has been actively destroying these games through concentrated whining and lobbying.
Ive been calling it "raid culture" but it is also known as "raid or die". Its has completely poisoned and destroyed mmo's.
But why? Why do you have to raid? Give me a reason then I'll give you a counterexample.
Lets get something clear, It's not what I think they should or should not have done, keep in mind, I was not some whale dumping millions into their game every quarter, I was some peon bloke spending a measly $40 a month. So obviously my staying or going in the grand scheme of things, was totally irrelevant.
So if they had metrics that told them, flipping me the bird and telling to me to "deal or GTFO" was a good plan, then kudos to them, but I highly doubt they had any metrics that told them pissing off whatever demographic they pissed off with HoT, was going to be a good thing on any level.
If you have Solid metrics, it's not a guessing game where mistakes like that are made.
You are seriously not understanding this.
Companies, like people, aren't perfect.
Game developers can see what their players are doing. They know if they take part in an event, they know how many of x quests are started and how many finish them.
if there is a spreadsheet capturing any given state or object in the game then this is easy.
Just because they have data doesn't mean that it's a crystal ball. It also doesn't mean that any decisions they make are going to align with what you think they should be doing.
Or other players.
Additionally, game developers are creative people. Creative people like to try different things.
So what can I tell you? They have information on the players and for some reason, they make decisions based on all sorts of input. Input from their managers, from what the players are doing from what is popular in gaming, from the desire to try something different, "whatever."
Any data they have isn't going to give them a foolproof magic bullet to success. If this was true then EVERYONE who recorded anything about anyone would be able to do it.
IN their case their data is just going to tell them current things about their players but it's not going to prognastcate what course they should take.
Sometimes people get it right and sometimes they don't. These forums are littered with news stories about game developers missing the mark.
Oh, and of course, players knowing better. Because of course they do.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
And then on the opposite end of the spectrum have Star Citizen lol....with the kitchen sink mentality to the point where nothing works because there are so many crap interdependent systems.
Whats the motto? Too many cooks spoil the pot? Something like that.
If you watch Kira's new video on the New World cash shop that also talks about the people who usually say they don't care you will see how much we should trust the community. We have got to this point of cash shops and greedy studios making hundreds of millions off of VERY low effort because of YOUR community. Cash shops should have NEVER survived,they facilitated TWO problems,they allowed all the crappy cheap f2p games to flood the market and created a gaming environment where pretty much every single developer wants to utilize a cash shop.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
The weird thing is before GW2 added raids, I don't even remember people discussing about it.
I dont' know what prompt Anet decision to add raid in the game. Worse yet, lock gear behind raid only.
There was an on going push for more challenge in GW2 by a vocal minority on their social media sites, mainly reddit and their main forums since the very start. Personally, 2 of the 5 guilds I was in, there was always some discussion going on about needing more challenge, wanting raids, and the like.
This is why Teq and Shatter got an overhaul to make them harder, TTT was put in, etc. Dungeons had received some minor changes to make them harder, like the removal being able to raise if the group was in combat.
There was also a push for gear grind, this was why Fractals and Ascended gear and infusions were put in (Originally the game capped with Exotic). As for the gear lock, I think they tested the waters with that idea by locking the Legendary back Item Ad Infinium behind T4 Fractals, and there was not nearly as much push-back for that one.
There was also, obviously metrics to show that added challenge was not a good idea, hence why they mainly removed the temple opening quests, and broke apart Fractals so that you didn't need to run 4 in a row to do a single fractal.
HoT was pretty much a full on expansion of GW2/Anet catering and pandering to their population of hardcore player base. There were many on the forums and reddit cheering it as the best expansion ever, and thanking Anet for basically pissing on their causal base.
Just for the record, I personally enjoyed HoT and raids a lot. I also enjoyed the core game immensely. So I am one of the weirdos that loved the extra challenge but also would be fine if something else more casual were to be added in their place.
Also, for each person hating on raids and HoT I was also hearing a person loving them. I am not convinced that HoT did that much damage. PoF was way more casual, so ANet must have judged indeed that catering to the more casual players were to their benefit, but GW2 still leaked players at a slow rate.
One could make the argument that this is the normal lifecycle of that game and it has nothing to do with the more challenging content of HoT or more casual content of PoF. My hunch (stress on the word "hunch") is that this is a mix of both:
a) people not liking the extra challenge of HoT (not of the raids, but of the open world), based on the fact that GW2 has traditionally been a more chill/casual game
b) natural decay (which was incorrectly attributed to HoT)
This whole discussion made me want to fire the game up and see what happens again. Gonna log in during the weekend, I know lots of my old guildies and friends still play since 2012.
This is like saying "Well the NGE of SWG didn't kill the game, it was just natural decay"
Anyone that looked at the numbers would see that there was a stark, direct decline in sales following HoT, and that expansion did massive damage to the game and the brand as a whole.
I am glad you enjoyed the game, or whatever, but, lets be honest, when you look at the numbers, your demographic was not keeping the game going fiscally, and the fact that you left anyway (by your own admission) it was not a smart move to make content to make you momentary happy, if it drove away others that may have stayed around longer and invested more money into the game.
No dis to anyone, but the point of any company is to make money, That should be a no brainer a this point. So when a compnay makes a choice to hurt their own income, that is most directly a bad choice.
Hopefully when you log back in, you will be inspired to fund them fiscally again...I mean you're not going to turn the ship around, but at least it would be a nice gesture to show your appreciation for putting in content that you enjoyed.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Lets get something clear, It's not what I think they should or should not have done, keep in mind, I was not some whale dumping millions into their game every quarter, I was some peon bloke spending a measly $40 a month. So obviously my staying or going in the grand scheme of things, was totally irrelevant.
So if they had metrics that told them, flipping me the bird and telling to me to "deal or GTFO" was a good plan, then kudos to them, but I highly doubt they had any metrics that told them pissing off whatever demographic they pissed off with HoT, was going to be a good thing on any level.
If you have Solid metrics, it's not a guessing game where mistakes like that are made.
You are seriously not understanding this.
Companies, like people, aren't perfect.
Game developers can see what their players are doing. They know if they take part in an event, they know how many of x quests are started and how many finish them.
if there is a spreadsheet capturing any given state or object in the game then this is easy.
Just because they have data doesn't mean that it's a crystal ball. It also doesn't mean that any decisions they make are going to align with what you think they should be doing.
Or other players.
Additionally, game developers are creative people. Creative people like to try different things.
So what can I tell you? They have information on the players and for some reason, they make decisions based on all sorts of input. Input from their managers, from what the players are doing from what is popular in gaming, from the desire to try something different, "whatever."
Any data they have isn't going to give them a foolproof magic bullet to success. If this was true then EVERYONE who recorded anything about anyone would be able to do it.
IN their case their data is just going to tell them current things about their players but it's not going to prognastcate what course they should take.
Sometimes people get it right and sometimes they don't. These forums are littered with news stories about game developers missing the mark.
Then they obviously don't have the metrics as well as you think they do.. now do they?
and thus they can be very easily swayed by some vocal demographic of players.. can't they?
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Ive been saying since 1999 that the hardcore raiding element of the playerbase has been actively destroying these games through concentrated whining and lobbying.
Ive been calling it "raid culture" but it is also known as "raid or die". Its has completely poisoned and destroyed mmo's.
But why? Why do you have to raid? Give me a reason then I'll give you a counterexample.
This reminds me of something Patrick Rothfuss said. "When I have to deal with this, it is like having a huge turd in the middle of my meal, it does not matter how great, or wonderful the rest of the meal is, or how much I may love what the meal is, when that huge turd is sitting in the middle of it, it soils the whole meal around it"
While he was not taking about gaming, the idea is simple enough, there will be this massive pile of content in the game, with all kinds of rewards linked to it, these players simply will not be able to take part in, and knowing that will make this huge void in the game for them.. like a a turd sitting in the middle of a banquet.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
The developers don't listen to the community , they follow the whales and the whales normally don't care much about other than themselves because they bull walk everything with money.
BTW , can OP give example of what game you said about ? cause i don't think there are developers that listen to the community. Never see one before.
EVE Online has had a player elected Interstellar Council for many years now which represented player concerns and advanced what were they felt were the more important issues for CCP to address.
As with all such entities it had elements of corruption and scandal, but overall it was an interesting take on the ideas of player feedback and council.
Call me crazy but making some players politicians isn't a great way to get me to trust them more.
Well, we're all playing politics and lobbying here so that seems a bit hypocritical or at least comes across as blindly unaware of your own agenda. What is this thread but a political ploy to rally like minded people around your perspective? People like to fancy themselves removed from and above "the politics" of it all, but once you voice an opinion and give argument with others, you're entering the fray.
A) It was a joke on the common held non-partisan belief that politicians are power mad tyrants and cannot be trusted at all This isn't politics. It is asking opinions on a hobby people have to get away from politics. Non-political opinions. Everything isn't politics, unlike the young believe nowadays. Just relax. C) I'm not above politics. I hate them. My definition of politics is people trying to impose their will and belief on others. Asking what people think isn't forcing anything on anyone. d) Please stop being crazy and so filled with butthurt and rage over gaming discussions in a gaming forum.
The developers don't listen to the community , they follow the whales and the whales normally don't care much about other than themselves because they bull walk everything with money.
BTW , can OP give example of what game you said about ? cause i don't think there are developers that listen to the community. Never see one before.
EVE Online has had a player elected Interstellar Council for many years now which represented player concerns and advanced what were they felt were the more important issues for CCP to address.
As with all such entities it had elements of corruption and scandal, but overall it was an interesting take on the ideas of player feedback and council.
Call me crazy but making some players politicians isn't a great way to get me to trust them more.
Well, we're all playing politics and lobbying here so that seems a bit hypocritical or at least comes across as blindly unaware of your own agenda. What is this thread but a political ploy to rally like minded people around your perspective? People like to fancy themselves removed from and above "the politics" of it all, but once you voice an opinion and give argument with others, you're entering the fray.
A) It was a joke on the common held non-partisan belief that politicians are power mad tyrants and cannot be trusted at all This isn't politics. It is asking opinions on a hobby people have to get away from politics. Non-political opinions. Everything isn't politics, unlike the young believe nowadays. Just relax. C) I'm not above politics. I hate them. My definition of politics is people trying to impose their will and belief on others. Asking what people think isn't forcing anything on anyone. d) Please stop being crazy and so filled with butthurt and rage over gaming discussions in a gaming forum.
I dunno, this particular definition of the word "politics" fits this site's forums pretty well.
"Factional scheming for power and status within a group"
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
If you watch Kira's new video on the New World cash shop that also talks about the people who usually say they don't care you will see how much we should trust the community. We have got to this point of cash shops and greedy studios making hundreds of millions off of VERY low effort because of YOUR community. Cash shops should have NEVER survived,they facilitated TWO problems,they allowed all the crappy cheap f2p games to flood the market and created a gaming environment where pretty much every single developer wants to utilize a cash shop.
You could also make the argument that cash shops and f2p games are so prevalent because people refused to support subscription mmorpgs.
I remember when that WH MMO came out I think it was that Jacobs guy who said it would be one of the last big budget mmorpgs to come out if it flopped because people refused to buy and subscribe to new mmorpgs.
There are so many players AND developers with limited experience that of course you can't trust their opinion. You just have to wait to see what is produced and hope for the best.
I sometimes ask for a more extreme version of what I would really prefer in a game just to balance out those on the other side of the discussion.
I'm sure we understand that all devs end up trying to cater to the widest audience possible for their specific game. (even the ones who claim they are targeting a niche audience). When it comes down to dollars and cents more players is always better in the short term.
This is like saying "Well the NGE of SWG didn't kill the game, it was just natural decay"
Anyone that looked at the numbers would see that there was a stark, direct decline in sales following HoT, and that expansion did massive damage to the game and the brand as a whole.
I am glad you enjoyed the game, or whatever, but, lets be honest, when you look at the numbers, your demographic was not keeping the game going fiscally, and the fact that you left anyway (by your own admission) it was not a smart move to make content to make you momentary happy, if it drove away others that may have stayed around longer and invested more money into the game.
No dis to anyone, but the point of any company is to make money, That should be a no brainer a this point. So when a compnay makes a choice to hurt their own income, that is most directly a bad choice.
Hopefully when you log back in, you will be inspired to fund them fiscally again...I mean you're not going to turn the ship around, but at least it would be a nice gesture to show your appreciation for putting in content that you enjoyed.
A couple of clarifications:
(a) it is not my demographic. I enjoyed the hard content of HoT, but I also enjoyed the casual gameplay of core. I would personally be happy with HoT going either way and would keep supporting them, because at that time I was still enjoying the game.
(b) I left after ~4k hours in the game, and close to the end of HoT and just before PoF launched. I would have left at that time regardless of which way the game had gone (casual or hard). It was just natural to get bored after all that time and move on. I had no particular issue with the game. It is my most played game to date.
(c) I have seen many players get bored with a game after hundreds or thousands of hours, then trying to rationalize and blame the game for it. I am just wondering what percentage really disliked HoT and what percentage just had burn-out and would have left regardless. The reason I think this is because the game kept bleeding players with the more casual PoF too.
There is a good chance that you are right about the damage done by HoT, I am just a bit more cautious and skeptical. I would love to see the numbers if they are published somewhere.
A few points:
PoF being Casual: Ok, the main problem with this, is that they blah blah blah blah.. whatever
You know what, words are kinda cheap.. Here, look at the numbers yourself.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Ive been saying since 1999 that the hardcore raiding element of the playerbase has been actively destroying these games through concentrated whining and lobbying.
Ive been calling it "raid culture" but it is also known as "raid or die". Its has completely poisoned and destroyed mmo's.
We saw this in EQ1.....Everyone had to be super well geared or often you didnt get into a decent guild or get good groups....The longer the game went the worse it got... In WoW we started seeing things like "gear score" where player A might have 1200 gear and is judged to be a better player than Player B who only has 1150 gear score.....No other factor.
Lets get something clear, It's not what I think they should or should not have done, keep in mind, I was not some whale dumping millions into their game every quarter, I was some peon bloke spending a measly $40 a month. So obviously my staying or going in the grand scheme of things, was totally irrelevant.
So if they had metrics that told them, flipping me the bird and telling to me to "deal or GTFO" was a good plan, then kudos to them, but I highly doubt they had any metrics that told them pissing off whatever demographic they pissed off with HoT, was going to be a good thing on any level.
If you have Solid metrics, it's not a guessing game where mistakes like that are made.
Just talking to the developers going with the numbers idea, they know what players are doing so that's what players want, that's what they cater to. Certainly happens but is it an honest policy or just a self fulfilling one? Take food and drink, we like high calorie bad for us food. Supermarkets can see that's what we like, but they don't just sell food which is bad for your diet. There are enough customers who will make a different choice to make it viable for the supermarket sell a range of products.
If players had the ability to show through gameplay that they wanted things a different way they would. Can't say how big that flag would be raised but they would raise it. The trouble is all games not just MMOs are incredibly difficult to play a different way, we don't get a menu we get a dinner plate put down in front of us. That's the gameplay, no other choice, no way to show you want to play the game a different way.
Comments
Hence our discussion about Trusting the Community.
Dead Ass, I have no idea what metrics they had that told them the changes they made in HoT would be anything other than a train wreck, since it turned out to be most moronic move they could have made.
I cannot imagine they had a pile of actual factual data that told them that this would in any way be a good idea, and they were not simply swayed by the vocal minority making a huge fuss on their social media accounts that these changes were what they wanted.
To their credit however, after HoT, and the outrage by the Casuals, they stuck to their guns, and made sure that their bad decision would only get worse and worse as time went on.
I cannot for the life me respect that they had any hard data that told them this was going to end well, given how bad it went.
This is actually flat out false, and I have personally witnessed this happen a few times with Turbine/Standing Stone Games.
The most memorable moment was the "Bridge Sit In" where players were protesting a game change, and Turbine opted to reverse their decision.
Another event that happened was, well with the Wizard Nerf, where people went to forums to complain that the new Trait Line made Wizards too powerful, and within a week Turbine nerfed them, and while the Nerf was not that big a deal in and of itself, they opted to piss into the fire telling the now nerfed wizards to just deal with it and buy the respec token.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
And they'll know better all the way to obscurity.
Lets get something clear, It's not what I think they should or should not have done, keep in mind, I was not some whale dumping millions into their game every quarter, I was some peon bloke spending a measly $40 a month. So obviously my staying or going in the grand scheme of things, was totally irrelevant.
So if they had metrics that told them, flipping me the bird and telling to me to "deal or GTFO" was a good plan, then kudos to them, but I highly doubt they had any metrics that told them pissing off whatever demographic they pissed off with HoT, was going to be a good thing on any level.
While I had no clout in this situation, or control over it, it simply was what happened, but they started to bleed income, and I mean, that very next quarter the damage was being done. Their income took a direct dive, and is still going down to this day.
That is what really matters in regards to if they made a good or bad choice. Not if they annoyed me directly. but if they hurt their company and brand, which, they did.
I mean legit, if they had real metrics to go by, they should have had something solid to show that this plan was not going to shoot their balls off. They would legit not be able to do that level of damage to their own product if they had metrics to go by. The hard reality is this, If you have Solid metrics, it's not a guessing game where mistakes like that are made.
Those kinds of mistakes happen when you don't really know what will happen, when you don't have the metrics to know what the windfall of this action will be, and that is why I think they were just listening to the vocal minority, and really had no idea how bad their idea was going to pan out.
As I cannot believe someone who knew that level of damage would be done.. would still willingly do it. I suppose the one counter argument could be, they were trying to kill the company and the game because they got into a piss fight with NCSoft execs, and this was their way of flipping them the bird.. there is that possibility.
NGL, that's Real shit way to flex your peen tho, getting a bunch of innocent people that were just doing their job fired because of an ego spat.
As for the "Counter Vocal Group" point.
To be fair, this did happen, for a short time, their reddit and main forms exploded with people coming out of the woodwork, saying this was a bad idea, that this will hurt and ruin the game. The people that had been vocal about wanting raids attacked them, down voted posts on reddit into oblivion, and even went so far as to harass them in game. Since, lets be honest, they were casuals, and thus, they did what casuals do... walked away.
ESO just came out the previous year, I am sure they enjoyed that influx of players looking for a new game and the income that came with it.
I dont' know what prompt Anet decision to add raid in the game. Worse yet, lock gear behind raid only.
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This is why Teq and Shatter got an overhaul to make them harder, TTT was put in, etc. Dungeons had received some minor changes to make them harder, like the removal being able to raise if the group was in combat.
There was also a push for gear grind, this was why Fractals and Ascended gear and infusions were put in (Originally the game capped with Exotic). As for the gear lock, I think they tested the waters with that idea by locking the Legendary back Item Ad Infinium behind T4 Fractals, and there was not nearly as much push-back for that one.
There was also, obviously metrics to show that added challenge was not a good idea, hence why they mainly removed the temple opening quests, and broke apart Fractals so that you didn't need to run 4 in a row to do a single fractal.
HoT was pretty much a full on expansion of GW2/Anet catering and pandering to their population of hardcore player base. There were many on the forums and reddit cheering it as the best expansion ever, and thanking Anet for basically pissing on their causal base.
Ive been calling it "raid culture" but it is also known as "raid or die". Its has completely poisoned and destroyed mmo's.
But why? Why do you have to raid? Give me a reason then I'll give you a counterexample.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Whats the motto? Too many cooks spoil the pot? Something like that.
We have got to this point of cash shops and greedy studios making hundreds of millions off of VERY low effort because of YOUR community.
Cash shops should have NEVER survived,they facilitated TWO problems,they allowed all the crappy cheap f2p games to flood the market and created a gaming environment where pretty much every single developer wants to utilize a cash shop.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Anyone that looked at the numbers would see that there was a stark, direct decline in sales following HoT, and that expansion did massive damage to the game and the brand as a whole.
I am glad you enjoyed the game, or whatever, but, lets be honest, when you look at the numbers, your demographic was not keeping the game going fiscally, and the fact that you left anyway (by your own admission) it was not a smart move to make content to make you momentary happy, if it drove away others that may have stayed around longer and invested more money into the game.
No dis to anyone, but the point of any company is to make money, That should be a no brainer a this point. So when a compnay makes a choice to hurt their own income, that is most directly a bad choice.
Hopefully when you log back in, you will be inspired to fund them fiscally again...I mean you're not going to turn the ship around, but at least it would be a nice gesture to show your appreciation for putting in content that you enjoyed.
and thus they can be very easily swayed by some vocal demographic of players.. can't they?
While he was not taking about gaming, the idea is simple enough, there will be this massive pile of content in the game, with all kinds of rewards linked to it, these players simply will not be able to take part in, and knowing that will make this huge void in the game for them.. like a a turd sitting in the middle of a banquet.
C) I'm not above politics. I hate them. My definition of politics is people trying to impose their will and belief on others. Asking what people think isn't forcing anything on anyone.
d) Please stop being crazy and so filled with butthurt and rage over gaming discussions in a gaming forum.
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I remember when that WH MMO came out I think it was that Jacobs guy who said it would be one of the last big budget mmorpgs to come out if it flopped because people refused to buy and subscribe to new mmorpgs.
I sometimes ask for a more extreme version of what I would really prefer in a game just to balance out those on the other side of the discussion.
I'm sure we understand that all devs end up trying to cater to the widest audience possible for their specific game. (even the ones who claim they are targeting a niche audience). When it comes down to dollars and cents more players is always better in the short term.
PoF being Casual: Ok, the main problem with this, is that they blah blah blah blah.. whatever
You know what, words are kinda cheap.. Here, look at the numbers yourself.
We saw this in EQ1.....Everyone had to be super well geared or often you didnt get into a decent guild or get good groups....The longer the game went the worse it got... In WoW we started seeing things like "gear score" where player A might have 1200 gear and is judged to be a better player than Player B who only has 1150 gear score.....No other factor.
If players had the ability to show through gameplay that they wanted things a different way they would. Can't say how big that flag would be raised but they would raise it. The trouble is all games not just MMOs are incredibly difficult to play a different way, we don't get a menu we get a dinner plate put down in front of us. That's the gameplay, no other choice, no way to show you want to play the game a different way.