Not happy about VIP

BruceYee

They just released info for what will be included with VIP(sub) and I'm not happy about it.

The info is here https://forum.projectgorgon.com/showthread.php?2853-All-About-the-VIP-Membership-Program&p=20254#post20254

VIP Member Benefits
An account with an active VIP plan gets the following:

• Four extra character slots -- for a total of 8!
• 15 extra inventory slots -- for each character!
• 25 extra slots in each item-transfer chest! There are three such chests now (75 extra slots) and two more coming (for a total of 125 extra slots).
• Access to offline advancement via the Autodidacticism skill! (You can read all the details about this benefit below.)
• Access to special in-game reports, such as a "character sheet" that lets you view all your character's stats in a simple spreadsheet.
• Extra saddlebag slots for mounts (when mounts are implemented) (mount not included).
• And more benefits to come! We're exploring ideas like giving VIPs custom chat colors, unique emotes, and monthly gift-redemptions that give out amusing trinkets.

I think the benefits are great and some type of idle game offline skill leveling system would be fantastic for new players. I've already leveled every skill I want to across multiple characters so that feature will be useless for me unless I ever decide to start another toon.

The part that twists my titties is that every benefit above is tied into an ongoing payment that IMO is the opposite of what makes BTP alluring. I've played this game since day 1 on Steam because I didn't feel pressured to go through the mental calculations of weighing out the sub vs value. Let's also be honest and admit that PG IS a Unity asset game. I love the systems and almost every aspect of the game but should a Unity asset flip game ever have a sub that isn't similar in cost to a minimal donation? Here are the prices...

1 month - $11.99

3 month - $29.99

6 month - $54.99

1 year - $99.99

Those prices are INSANE IMO.. the game itself costs anywhere from $29.99-$39.99 depending if it's on sale but $11.99 for a one month sub?!? They went all these years being OK with collecting that $29.99-$39.99 BTP but then come out with all of these great features then tie it in directly to an ongoing membership...

I'm sure there are certain diehard fans who won't mind those prices but I would've preferred every single one of those features to be a ONE-TIME purchasable extra sold individually or even as a bundle(dlc). I have no problem supporting games beyond the BTP cost even in large amounts($) IF what is being offered is reasonable for the money being asked for in return. IMO the whole inventory increase being removed when the subscription isn't active is ESO but worse because there's no option to buy those inventory slots separately like in ESO... You're literally restricted from removing inventory from the inventory you paid for UNTIL you pay again...

The extra inventory slots will be extremely useful especially for new players seeing as inventory management in this game can make you go crazy especially until you have all of it unlocked or most of it across MULTIPLE characters. So my question is was inventory intentionally designed to be a pain so they could add it as a perk to VIP later?

IF I were to add a sub for all those perks my prices would look like this...

$5.00 - 1 month

$10.00 - 3 month

$20.00 - 6 month

$30.00 - 1 year

Those prices IMO are reasonable even when you include the Steam cut for what's being offered IF a sub was the only way to proceed for whatever reason. For each one of those features like 15 extra inventory I'd gladly pay $10 for or $15 for the extra shared inventory as a ONE-TIME fee. The offline leveling IMO is probably worth about $15-$20 ONE-TIME especially for new players.

They are free to do whatever they want in their game and I will continue to play without a sub but think they could possibly benefit more in the long run if VIP perks were turned into DLC purchases like every single Games Workshop title on Steam that is put on sale regularly.

I'm not even gonna go into the P2W aspects of the perks right now cause IMO the playerbase is too small for anything to be really considered P2W.

TwoTubes

I was planning on giving it a try once I bought a new computer but now that its shifting to have pay to win aspects thats a hard pass. That's to bad, it was one of only a few games I was considering.

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

Scot

I am all for monthly subs but you don't appear to be getting much for that, down to it being a small indie MMO I guess. 

Vrika

BruceYee said:

• Access to special in-game reports, such as a "character sheet" that lets you view all your character's stats in a simple spreadsheet.

Are they seriously going to add that as extra purchase?

Imho the other stuff is fine, but that's borderline to breaking their agreement if info like that is not part of the base game purchase.

Scorchien

So.. we are talking about .30 a day .. mehh  nothing to see here

  Nothing in that VIP that is offensive or P2W

kitarad

I think this is a result of not realising that they need to make money. Having a subscription and other types of perks for people who subscribe is the way they decided to go about it. Players just don't want to pay for anything and insist they want a F2P game or B2P and then expect the game to run for 365 days 24/7 after that with no more input through cash from them.

No developer can do things for minimal gains. They will all need to have more money which people don't want to pay. So they go this route. You will see this in every game as we go forward and especially in these hard times. 

Don't be surprised that in future no game is going to be without these perks for subbing and paying extra. You have to give the people paying something and at the end of the day if everyone playing have it, it won't be p2w any more.

Wizardry

You will be paying more than $100 for th egame just in the first year.
Let's be honest,these games become less interesting,more boring over time so you would be spending around 200+ if you stuck around for 2 years.

This game is NEVER worth 200 bucks and i expect 2 years minimum from a mmorpg.Geesh i spent 2 years in Atlas and imo is a much better game than PG even after i quit playing Atlas.

I played PG for about 6 months albeit quite a long time ago but imo it was going nowhere and would always look and feel like an Indie game.
I paid around 30 bucks for Valheim and Atlas and with no added costs which is the way game purchases SHOULD work.

Some scoff at spreadsheet information but imo that is the ONLY cash shop that would ever fly with me.The simple reason is that it has no influence on the game at all but would be more like hiring someone to setup a spreadsheet for you.

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

Iselin

Reverse what they're doing and think of a sub-only game (WOW, FF14, etc.) introducing a F2P option where all of the above with an added minus sign would be penalties for not subbing... people would love it and heap praise on them for creating a new F2P option.

It's just a matter of perspective depending on the game's original monetization model. If a sub game does it it's no big deal but when a F2P or B2P game does it's apparently a P2W apocalypse.

Vrika

Deathkon1 said:

Vrika said:

BruceYee said:

• Access to special in-game reports, such as a "character sheet" that lets you view all your character's stats in a simple spreadsheet.

Are they seriously going to add that as extra purchase?

Imho the other stuff is fine, but that's borderline to breaking their agreement if info like that is not part of the base game purchase.

their agreement you agreed to in their third party eula says they can change stuff overtime so legally they got themselves covered this wont matter what we feel or think

No. They are covered only for changing and removing features. They are not covered for revoking your access to features that are not removed.

Kyleran

All comes down to personal preference whether what's being offered is considered a good value or not.

Just in the few responses so far it's isn't for some while others shrug it as pocket change in terms of cost.

Some folks dislike losing access to features or functionality if they stop paying yet others are content to play the base game.

I'm sure there are a few who wouldn't mind if loot boxes were added, or even more pay for advantage items such as XP boosters or the like.

To each their own. Buy or don't buy, that's the decision everyone has if they want to play a particular game or access certain content.

I paid Zenimax a box price, purchased a bunch of crowns and pay for the monthly sub. I haven't bought their current expansion nor the upcoming one, nor will I buy into their stupid loot box / crown gems as it's a bridge I refuse to cross but others are fine with it.

I do think the inventory should be like FO76s unlimited stash box, players can still pull stuff out of it after stopping the monthly sub, just can't put anything else in.

Slapshot1188

I paid $25 for the game many years ago.  I played it in spurts.   It's got some very fun parts and some bizarre stuff like all the focus on playing as a Deer or a Spider... but I think it was a good example of what a Crowdfunded MMORPG can/should reach for.

Now they are adding an OPTIONAL sub... for $12?  And that sub was actually stated in the Original Kickstarter 6 years ago...  I do not see an issue.  Sure it is $12 vs the $10 that was stated in the Kickstarter but people also got to play for 6 years for free.  

I see nothing wrong with this at all. I mean, many of the perks listed on the OP were even mentioned in the Kickstarter.  6 years ago.  So not sure why it would come as a surprise and/or expected that these would be one-time purchases.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/projectgorgon/project-gorgon-pc-mmo/description

VIP Subscription

The VIP Subscription is optional and will allow players to support the continued development of Project Gorgon while also rewarding players for their generosity.

The VIP Subscription* will cost $9.99 a month and will feature the following benefits:

• Eight (8) Character Slots instead of only four (4).

• Additional Inventory slots, approximately 24 additional slots.

• Exclusive in-game title.

• A monthly allotment of special in-game currency that can be used at a unique in-game vendor. The special vendor will have exclusive minor cosmetic items, experience boost potions, and other neat items! (Note: The vendor will be accessible by non-subscribing players, but they will not receive a monthly allotment of currency.)

• Exclusive access to the “Autodidactism” skill which will allow players to slowly level up skills while they are offline. (Note: You will be required to learn the skill and collect all required materials prior to using this skill.)

*The benefits associated with the VIP Subscription are subject to change as benefits may be added, removed, or tweaked prior to launch. 

Nilden

The game has 200 players and is a husband and wife dev team of two people. This will probably pay for the electric bill and keep the game going.

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

BruceYee

Just so we're all on the same page...

Everyone here is OK now with a BTP early access indie Unity asset MMO selling in-game advantages in sub/membership form for premium/AAA MMO prices?

Scot

BruceYee said:

Just so we're all on the same page...

Everyone here is OK now with a BTP early access indie Unity asset MMO selling in-game advantages in sub/membership form for premium/AAA MMO prices?

So if they used your prices this would be fine? I guess it would in one way, but you would then have PG looking to raise money in other ways. So I am not convinced they have got it wrong, but as I said you do not seem to get much for a subscription. So not nailing myself to either side of this debate. 

Sovrath

BruceYee said:

Just so we're all on the same page...

Everyone here is OK now with a BTP early access indie Unity asset MMO selling in-game advantages in sub/membership form for premium/AAA MMO prices?

how many people play this game? using your prices, then take 30%,  what does that leave them per year?

Slapshot1188

BruceYee said:

Just so we're all on the same page...

Everyone here is OK now with a BTP early access indie Unity asset MMO selling in-game advantages in sub/membership form for premium/AAA MMO prices?

So we are all on the same page here...

They quite literally, from day one of the Kickstarter 6 years ago said there would be an optional sub.  They even listed some of the advantages it would give.  At that time they said $10 a month.   6 years later, they raised the price 2 bucks so it’s $12.   

So when you say it was B2P above you leave out the critical point that it was ALWAYS stated as having a VIP sub that game some advantages.  Nothing about it’s monetization model has changed except it’s $2 more for an optional sub and that sub items were tweaked a bit.  After 6 years that isn’t too bad of a target.

If they added this out of the blue I might be more understanding of your ire, but they are doing what they said they would do the whole time.  I reserve my complaints for the companies that DON’T do what they say they will do. 

PS: Just to save some future heartache... they ALSO said there would be a shop with it's own currency to buy things like XP potions. (as I quoted in my earlier post).  So yes,  do not be shocked if/when it happens because they SAID that was the plan right on their Kickstarter page.

Kyleran

Wait, wut? You mean they haven't already implemented a cash shop with exp boosters yet?  Bah, worthless indie  company, never delivering on their promises, no way would I consider playing their game until they've been added in.

MightyUnclean

BruceYee said:

Just so we're all on the same page...

Everyone here is OK now with a BTP early access indie Unity asset MMO selling in-game advantages in sub/membership form for premium/AAA MMO prices?

Yes, we have become so conditioned to modern gaming monetization that this now seems normal and acceptable to most of us, unfortunately.

Mendel

When altruism meets the real world.

I'm not a real fan of P:G.  It's very much an 'everybody does everything' type of game.  The graphics are very substandard -- Unity store assets, and not particularly good ones at that.  Buying the game is one thing, but now adding a subscription on top of that is a financial strain I don't really need.  If I wanted to pay for something like this, I'd rather pick up EQ1.  At least that way I could get multiple games for the price of a single subscription, and all of the games are better looking that P:G.

Developers can't afford to be altruistic.  This group is discovering that the hard way.  The VIP just doesn't stack up against competing alternatives.