Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen NPC Combat Tactics

Nanfoodle

They get right into the topic. 

Team consists of a Shaman, Dire Lord and Wizard. We have not seen much Wizard game play yet. The zone they are in is a 24 man raid zone. So they used some dev tools to give them God mode. This will be all about show casing the NPC AI not on combat. Joppa says that this video show NPCs making meaningful decisions in combat, not just mechanics and cool abilities. For instance, a healer NPC wont just heal a friend when they lose HP but may dispel a DoT or remove a CC before healing them. In the devs words, "Making NPCs seem alive" 

5:25 shows a target graph where NPCs have options of just not picking the player with the biggest threat level, but other smarter options. 
6:37 we get to see this graph in actions. 

9:26 Next graph for NPC options kit
10:58 Next graph for NPC options kit, NPC dispelling mez on allies. 
11:39 See dispelling kit in action in game. 

16:13 Next graph for NPC option kit, new NPC battle, this sill kit is 2 npc that can combo off each others skills and how they are always looking for each others skills, so they can combo.
18:16 Next graph for NPC option kit, this kit is to have NPC looking for foes who have mana. 
19:04 Next graph for NPC option kit, this kit if to look for someone with mana that is not CCed. In the video of combat to follow, two of these kits case some interesting NPC bouncing between targets.  
20:13 In game footage showing these above kits in action
 
24:57 Next graph for NPC option kit, fir last fight, new NPC added to the fry (mini boss), this time its only cast this ability when X number or players are in range. 
26:42 (most complex) Next NPC option kit, this is for an ability thats triggered from another kit
28:28 Next, 2 graphs NPC options kits, they did not discuss this one
29:41 In game combat with above kits in action. Most dynamic NPC option in play here. 

34:36 Back to talking heads. Gets into road map to alpha. Also gets into how Pantheon will be a very strategic game. We will see this more in the coming months as they show us these tool in action. 

38:15 Patch notes, Joppa said that going forward they will be adding the patch notes to their web site.

46:00 BOMB DROP! Monk class will be coming soon. Maybe next stream. Focus is the Monk, Summoner and Ranger right now.

47:10 Q&A, only going to post the most interesting questions, only answering questions about NPC options kits

51:50 All AI kits are being added manually, nothing does procedurally.  

52:02 How is the pet system coming? Not started working on it yet but coming soon (Joppa's words). (So Summoner will take the longest. My conjecture) 

55:40 Will NPC's AI have them working together combo-ing of each other skills? Joppa says: Plan on it! (talks about this emphatically for a few min) 

57:49 Wraps up stream, nothing important. Joppa talks about being a music composer and how the contrasts to making a game. Talks also about how happy and how much fun they are having watching the AI unfold. 

Nanfoodle

time stamp done, enjoy!

EDIT: FYI, you can just jump to the in game footage that I have underlined and see the AI in action and the devs do give a blow by blow of what the AI is doing. 

Geeky

Awesome man, well done.

Also, it was a good stream.  Seeing the abilities of NPC to make decisions is a good step for added depth to combat rather than just adding more HP's.

Wizardry

I honestly was all set to watch but as soon as i seen Raid i am completely turned off.I hate everything Raid stands for in mmorpg's zero interest in that idea.

I don't want anymore LAZY designs,i want MISSING for years mechanics like hiring npc's to fight alongside me with some unique ideas to create depth in that area.I want to BUILD within the world,a home and put stuff in it.

For combat i want missing for years realism,so i want good AI but mostly i want drops that make sense,the drops should be what the foe is wielding.
I want villages both friendly and hostile where we might have to fight a bit to rescue some npcs perhaps to befriend,maybe to search that village for hidden secrets,hidden passages maybe soem captive has an in depth mission etc etc.

I think i made my point,the SIMPLE days of making a dungeon and then just forcing a large group to have enough dps is VERY weak boring combat design.

I want the RISK/REWARD of having only 1 tank and i want combat mechanics to be so good that if you just want to show off and spam you'll draw hate and die quickly.So the HATE meters need to be balanced very well and i would notice it within 2-3 battles.

I am so done with 1998-2003 it is not funny,i want to walk into a game and think WHOA this is cool,this is creative,this is unique.

Wizardry

I will give the reason why although i would expect msot already feel the same way.
If i am going to buy and play the same old then all i am doing is playing a reskinned game.How much is a reskinned game worth and do i even want to REPLAY the same game reskinned?

I know devs are making a killing now a days selling OLDER games reskinned but it is foolish spending and imo serves very little purpose.
Nostalgia,yeah whatever,the devs love people who will spend money on nostalgia.

I feel most people want to feel surprised and have lots of NEW to discover,not just new locations but all of it should feel new like going on a vacation to a brand new destination feels interesting and exciting.

Nanfoodle

Wizardry said:

I honestly was all set to watch but as soon as i seen Raid i am completely turned off.I hate everything Raid stands for in mmorpg's zero interest in that idea.

I don't want anymore LAZY designs,i want MISSING for years mechanics like hiring npc's to fight alongside me with some unique ideas to create depth in that area.I want to BUILD within the world,a home and put stuff in it.

For combat i want missing for years realism,so i want good AI but mostly i want drops that make sense,the drops should be what the foe is wielding.
I want villages both friendly and hostile where we might have to fight a bit to rescue some npcs perhaps to befriend,maybe to search that village for hidden secrets,hidden passages maybe soem captive has an in depth mission etc etc.

I think i made my point,the SIMPLE days of making a dungeon and then just forcing a large group to have enough dps is VERY weak boring combat design.

I want the RISK/REWARD of having only 1 tank and i want combat mechanics to be so good that if you just want to show off and spam you'll draw hate and die quickly.So the HATE meters need to be balanced very well and i would notice it within 2-3 battles.

I am so done with 1998-2003 it is not funny,i want to walk into a game and think WHOA this is cool,this is creative,this is unique.

This has nothing to do with raiding other then showing how they are adding AI. Its a 3 man team. You dont watch the video and then give an opinion on what you have not seen =-)  

Kyleran

Nanfoodle said:

Wizardry said:

I honestly was all set to watch but as soon as i seen Raid i am completely turned off.I hate everything Raid stands for in mmorpg's zero interest in that idea.

I don't want anymore LAZY designs,i want MISSING for years mechanics like hiring npc's to fight alongside me with some unique ideas to create depth in that area.I want to BUILD within the world,a home and put stuff in it.

For combat i want missing for years realism,so i want good AI but mostly i want drops that make sense,the drops should be what the foe is wielding.
I want villages both friendly and hostile where we might have to fight a bit to rescue some npcs perhaps to befriend,maybe to search that village for hidden secrets,hidden passages maybe soem captive has an in depth mission etc etc.

I think i made my point,the SIMPLE days of making a dungeon and then just forcing a large group to have enough dps is VERY weak boring combat design.

I want the RISK/REWARD of having only 1 tank and i want combat mechanics to be so good that if you just want to show off and spam you'll draw hate and die quickly.So the HATE meters need to be balanced very well and i would notice it within 2-3 battles.

I am so done with 1998-2003 it is not funny,i want to walk into a game and think WHOA this is cool,this is creative,this is unique.

This has nothing to do with raiding other then showing how they are adding AI. Its a 3 man team. You dont watch the video and then give an opinion on what you have not seen =-)  

You do realize his feedback has almost nothing to do with what was shared, rather it's just a convenient vehicle to launch his standard two post rant decrying the state of modern gaming.

Cheers

Nanfoodle

Kyleran said:

Nanfoodle said:

Wizardry said:

I honestly was all set to watch but as soon as i seen Raid i am completely turned off.I hate everything Raid stands for in mmorpg's zero interest in that idea.

I don't want anymore LAZY designs,i want MISSING for years mechanics like hiring npc's to fight alongside me with some unique ideas to create depth in that area.I want to BUILD within the world,a home and put stuff in it.

For combat i want missing for years realism,so i want good AI but mostly i want drops that make sense,the drops should be what the foe is wielding.
I want villages both friendly and hostile where we might have to fight a bit to rescue some npcs perhaps to befriend,maybe to search that village for hidden secrets,hidden passages maybe soem captive has an in depth mission etc etc.

I think i made my point,the SIMPLE days of making a dungeon and then just forcing a large group to have enough dps is VERY weak boring combat design.

I want the RISK/REWARD of having only 1 tank and i want combat mechanics to be so good that if you just want to show off and spam you'll draw hate and die quickly.So the HATE meters need to be balanced very well and i would notice it within 2-3 battles.

I am so done with 1998-2003 it is not funny,i want to walk into a game and think WHOA this is cool,this is creative,this is unique.

This has nothing to do with raiding other then showing how they are adding AI. Its a 3 man team. You dont watch the video and then give an opinion on what you have not seen =-)  

You do realize his feedback has almost nothing to do with what was shared, rather it's just a convenient vehicle to launch his standard two post rant decrying the state of modern gaming.

Cheers

I stopped reading at lazy design. (((shrugs))) Not on topic and didnt watch or read the info. I gave back on the level he gave to the thread. 

Kyleran

I promoted this summary over on MOP as Nan's effort is worthy of being seen by more eyes.

Neanderthal

I agree with Wizardry about raiding.  Fuck that shit.  It's not fun.  It's not even slightly enjoyable and I want nothing to do with it.  If they want to make a game focused on big raids that's their choice but there is nothing wrong with someone saying they don't like that type of game design.  I certainly don't like it.

Sovrath

Neanderthal said:

I agree with Wizardry about raiding.  Fuck that shit.  It's not fun.  It's not even slightly enjoyable and I want nothing to do with it.  If they want to make a game focused on big raids that's their choice but there is nothing wrong with someone saying they don't like that type of game design.  I certainly don't like it.

Great but they're not making a game, at least thus far, focused on raiding.

But it will have raids and people do like them. Heck, I even like them but I'd never want to be a part of a raiding guild.

Nilden

Well it's nice to see them do something more with NPC AI. Lord knows the door is wide open for some improvement. Maybe they could give the NPCs a perception system, a morale system for NPCs with brains and wildlife that would run to survive but not undead.

This is certainly a step in the right direction.

Rungar

Good to see they are trying. 

Neanderthal

Sovrath said:

Neanderthal said:

I agree with Wizardry about raiding.  Fuck that shit.  It's not fun.  It's not even slightly enjoyable and I want nothing to do with it.  If they want to make a game focused on big raids that's their choice but there is nothing wrong with someone saying they don't like that type of game design.  I certainly don't like it.

Great but they're not making a game, at least thus far, focused on raiding.

But it will have raids and people do like them. Heck, I even like them but I'd never want to be a part of a raiding guild.

I can't believe that people still need to have this stuff explained to them.  Ok, let me try to make it as plain as possible.

1.  This is a game based on character progression.

2.  It will have multi-group raids.

3.  Nobody will do raids unless it is the only reasonable way to progress.  Therefore all non-raid progression must end at some point (probably upon reaching max level or shortly thereafter).

4.  A game that's all about character progression wherein the only way to progress your character is by doing raids IS FOCUSED ON RAIDING.

Anyone saying otherwise is either lying or delusional.

Kyleran

Nanfoodle

Neanderthal said:

Sovrath said:

Neanderthal said:

I agree with Wizardry about raiding.  Fuck that shit.  It's not fun.  It's not even slightly enjoyable and I want nothing to do with it.  If they want to make a game focused on big raids that's their choice but there is nothing wrong with someone saying they don't like that type of game design.  I certainly don't like it.

Great but they're not making a game, at least thus far, focused on raiding.

But it will have raids and people do like them. Heck, I even like them but I'd never want to be a part of a raiding guild.

I can't believe that people still need to have this stuff explained to them.  Ok, let me try to make it as plain as possible.

1.  This is a game based on character progression.

2.  It will have multi-group raids.

3.  Nobody will do raids unless it is the only reasonable way to progress.  Therefore all non-raid progression must end at some point (probably upon reaching max level or shortly thereafter).

4.  A game that's all about character progression wherein the only way to progress your character is by doing raids IS FOCUSED ON RAIDING.

Anyone saying otherwise is either lying or delusional.

I have news for you. The devs have been clear, raiding is not required. This game will have a bit of a sandbox feel, in that you can explore and decide how you progress your char. Even crafting is an option, as the world will have content for crafters, to help NPCs that need crafted goods. Crafters will upgrade outposts. Making vendors show up. You can do nothing but dungeon crawls and live there if you want. Or be a lore nut and open up story arcs. 

Kyleran

Nanfoodle said:

Neanderthal said:

Sovrath said:

Neanderthal said:

I agree with Wizardry about raiding.  Fuck that shit.  It's not fun.  It's not even slightly enjoyable and I want nothing to do with it.  If they want to make a game focused on big raids that's their choice but there is nothing wrong with someone saying they don't like that type of game design.  I certainly don't like it.

Great but they're not making a game, at least thus far, focused on raiding.

But it will have raids and people do like them. Heck, I even like them but I'd never want to be a part of a raiding guild.

I can't believe that people still need to have this stuff explained to them.  Ok, let me try to make it as plain as possible.

1.  This is a game based on character progression.

2.  It will have multi-group raids.

3.  Nobody will do raids unless it is the only reasonable way to progress.  Therefore all non-raid progression must end at some point (probably upon reaching max level or shortly thereafter).

4.  A game that's all about character progression wherein the only way to progress your character is by doing raids IS FOCUSED ON RAIDING.

Anyone saying otherwise is either lying or delusional.

I have news for you. The devs have been clear, raiding is not required. This game will have a bit of a sandbox feel, in that you can explore and decide how you progress your char. Even crafting is an option, as the world will have content for crafters, to help NPCs that need crafted goods. Crafters will upgrade outposts. Making vendors show up. You can do nothing but dungeon crawls and live there if you want. OR by a lore nut and open up story arcs. 

Yeah, strangely enough there are many people who enjoy playing games who are not slavishly devoted to avatar level or power progression.

Weird to me but they are definitely out there and are not at interested in raiding.

Nanfoodle

Kyleran said:

Nanfoodle said:

Neanderthal said:

Sovrath said:

Neanderthal said:

I agree with Wizardry about raiding.  Fuck that shit.  It's not fun.  It's not even slightly enjoyable and I want nothing to do with it.  If they want to make a game focused on big raids that's their choice but there is nothing wrong with someone saying they don't like that type of game design.  I certainly don't like it.

Great but they're not making a game, at least thus far, focused on raiding.

But it will have raids and people do like them. Heck, I even like them but I'd never want to be a part of a raiding guild.

I can't believe that people still need to have this stuff explained to them.  Ok, let me try to make it as plain as possible.

1.  This is a game based on character progression.

2.  It will have multi-group raids.

3.  Nobody will do raids unless it is the only reasonable way to progress.  Therefore all non-raid progression must end at some point (probably upon reaching max level or shortly thereafter).

4.  A game that's all about character progression wherein the only way to progress your character is by doing raids IS FOCUSED ON RAIDING.

Anyone saying otherwise is either lying or delusional.

I have news for you. The devs have been clear, raiding is not required. This game will have a bit of a sandbox feel, in that you can explore and decide how you progress your char. Even crafting is an option, as the world will have content for crafters, to help NPCs that need crafted goods. Crafters will upgrade outposts. Making vendors show up. You can do nothing but dungeon crawls and live there if you want. OR by a lore nut and open up story arcs. 

Yeah, strangely enough there are many people who enjoy playing games who are not slavishly devoted to avatar level or power progression.

Weird to me but they are definitely out there and are not at interested in raiding.

I agree but I would not call Pantheon is "Focused on raiding" 

Mendel

Nanfoodle said:

Kyleran said:

Nanfoodle said:

Neanderthal said:

Sovrath said:

Neanderthal said:

I agree with Wizardry about raiding.  Fuck that shit.  It's not fun.  It's not even slightly enjoyable and I want nothing to do with it.  If they want to make a game focused on big raids that's their choice but there is nothing wrong with someone saying they don't like that type of game design.  I certainly don't like it.

Great but they're not making a game, at least thus far, focused on raiding.

But it will have raids and people do like them. Heck, I even like them but I'd never want to be a part of a raiding guild.

I can't believe that people still need to have this stuff explained to them.  Ok, let me try to make it as plain as possible.

1.  This is a game based on character progression.

2.  It will have multi-group raids.

3.  Nobody will do raids unless it is the only reasonable way to progress.  Therefore all non-raid progression must end at some point (probably upon reaching max level or shortly thereafter).

4.  A game that's all about character progression wherein the only way to progress your character is by doing raids IS FOCUSED ON RAIDING.

Anyone saying otherwise is either lying or delusional.

I have news for you. The devs have been clear, raiding is not required. This game will have a bit of a sandbox feel, in that you can explore and decide how you progress your char. Even crafting is an option, as the world will have content for crafters, to help NPCs that need crafted goods. Crafters will upgrade outposts. Making vendors show up. You can do nothing but dungeon crawls and live there if you want. OR by a lore nut and open up story arcs. 

Yeah, strangely enough there are many people who enjoy playing games who are not slavishly devoted to avatar level or power progression.

Weird to me but they are definitely out there and are not at interested in raiding.

I agree but I would not call Pantheon is "Focused on raiding" 

I don't know if Pantheon is focused on raiding or not.  I think they are focusing on getting the fundamentals to work right now.  I don't know what they intend to do after that.  The focus can change over time, and there is time aplenty before launch and the first expansion or two.

I will agree that VR isn't "focusing on raiding *NOW*".  After all, the model they are using as a basis (EQ1) evolved into a raiding game; it didn't start that way.  (There wasn't enough to raid, and a good part of it was broken).  EQ1 wasn't really a raid-focused game until after the PoP expansion (which was almost all raiding).

Nanfoodle

Mendel said:

Nanfoodle said:

I agree but I would not call Pantheon is "Focused on raiding" 

I don't know if Pantheon is focused on raiding or not.  I think they are focusing on getting the fundamentals to work right now.  I don't know what they intend to do after that.  The focus can change over time, and there is time aplenty before launch and the first expansion or two.

I will agree that VR isn't "focusing on raiding *NOW*".  After all, the model they are using as a basis (EQ1) evolved into a raiding game; it didn't start that way.  (There wasn't enough to raid, and a good part of it was broken).  EQ1 wasn't really a raid-focused game until after the PoP expansion (which was almost all raiding).

Ya when a game has a fan base, the game focuses to what keeps that fan base playing. If the game makes it, 3 years from now, who knows what the fans will be asking for. 

achesoma

This video is the strongest Pantheon has looked thus far. I’m really digging the NPC mechanics. 

Cyber-Demon

achesoma said:

This video is the strongest Pantheon has looked thus far. I’m really digging the NPC mechanics. 

Yes I agree! The in-game footage looks very promising. The pacing of combat, the abilities even the animation are starting to look really good. By far one of the best Pantheons dev streams I have seen.

kitarad

The part where he talks about the third person on the list by mana or threat being targeted by the NPC is really rad. Stun a healer while the healer is casting is what good AI is about.

Also the fact that and NPC will dispel or cure their comrade is also very advanced AI. Good job. No such thing as mez a mob and it is out of the fight. Also the synergy between the NPCs is going to make combat decisions so much more fluid and will differentiate between a good player and an excellent one. An NPC that takes advantage of something his fellow NPC does is pretty advanced AI. 

Joppa has ants he keeps shifting in his seat .

Neanderthal

Nanfoodle said:

I have news for you. The devs have been clear, raiding is not required.

Yeah, right.  Hey, I ran into a guy the other day who wants to sell the Brooklyn bridge, should I put you in touch with him?

Whatever guys.  I don't really want to hijack this thread so I'll just let it go now but like I said....lying or delusional.  Maybe I should throw "gullible" in there to be nice.

Nanfoodle

kitarad said:

The part where he talks about the third person on the list by mana or threat being targeted by the NPC is really rad. Stun a healer while the healer is casting is what good AI is about.

Also the fact that and NPC will dispel or cure their comrade is also very advanced AI. Good job. No such thing as mez a mob and it is out of the fight. Also the synergy between the NPCs is going to make combat decisions so much more fluid and will differentiate between a good player and an excellent one. An NPC that takes advantage of something his fellow NPC does is pretty advanced AI. 

Joppa has ants he keeps shifting in his seat .

What I like about this, is its not scripted combat thats mostly used in top level encounters. Having mechanics happen by AI, means that unique things can happen, meaning we need to be ready to change tactics on the fly more often.  

Sovrath

Neanderthal said:

Sovrath said:

Neanderthal said:

I agree with Wizardry about raiding.  Fuck that shit.  It's not fun.  It's not even slightly enjoyable and I want nothing to do with it.  If they want to make a game focused on big raids that's their choice but there is nothing wrong with someone saying they don't like that type of game design.  I certainly don't like it.

Great but they're not making a game, at least thus far, focused on raiding.

But it will have raids and people do like them. Heck, I even like them but I'd never want to be a part of a raiding guild.

I can't believe that people still need to have this stuff explained to them.  Ok, let me try to make it as plain as possible.

1.  This is a game based on character progression.

2.  It will have multi-group raids.

3.  Nobody will do raids unless it is the only reasonable way to progress.  Therefore all non-raid progression must end at some point (probably upon reaching max level or shortly thereafter).

4.  A game that's all about character progression wherein the only way to progress your character is by doing raids IS FOCUSED ON RAIDING.

Anyone saying otherwise is either lying or delusional.

Not sure what to say, you can take it up with the developers. Maybe they'll make the game "all raiding all the time" but as of now that is not supposed to be the case.

It's been a while since I watched this but maybe you can find something useful.