Carbot WoW

Gorwe

I really feel this is a relevant thing to share, so, take a look: .

What do you think? I mean, I get it, the change hasn't been kind, but...would it be better without it? Team Tzeentch or Team Nurgle?

Po_gg

I'm a bit confused about the question, and would rather not pick teams (wasn't too much into Wowcraft, nor WH40k).

On a more general sense, it's a great flick, applies to almost all MMORPGs of "old". Which makes it kinda sad, whilst it should be a fun video  

Wizardry

IDK if you got your videos mixed up but that was just a cartoon about Wow.

The biggest change is not about Wow but about Blizzard,they jumped on the monetization bandwagon big time.

As for Wow,i was already playing rpg's and had a good idea what i wanted from them,Wow did not deliver that so i never cared about the game.IMO Blizzard made a rpg that was watered down to cater to all the kids,a connect the dots game with tons of hand holding markers and quests.
Blizzarrd even removed the community building idea of grouping by creating automated group dungeon finders.So all people did was cue up and RUN and i mean RUN through these just to get loot.
IMO 99% of Wow gamers do NOT play for the GAME,the WORLD,they play for loot/rewards.

Linif

See this is a thing I don't understand and probably never will. People enjoy the "good ol' days" of spamming chats looking for parties, sitting minutes to hours to form up and crack on with the content. My experience with that was FF11.

I hated that system. It took time and a fair bit of effort and conversing. Sure it was more personal, or at the very least more social. But I wanted to play my game, not sit around waiting for a response or looking for those additional people to show up in chat.

I like the current system now. Sure, the monetization is lame. Cool-looking mounts locked behind a cash shop, but at the same time, it hasn't affected my gameplay. I can still get rare stuff from doing hard content. The biggest and most obvious problem is Act-Bli's time-gating nonsense and learning curve/difficulty curve pointing almost directly down.

I honestly don't understand why Act-Bli having a cash shop is such a problem for some people. The boosting, okay I can see why that may be a problem. It makes the world more empty during the leveling journey. Everything else? It literally doesn't affect you.

Am I off-base here? Is there something I'm missing?

Bloodaxes

Linif said:

See this is a thing I don't understand and probably never will. People enjoy the "good ol' days" of spamming chats looking for parties, sitting minutes to hours to form up and crack on with the content. My experience with that was FF11.

I hated that system. It took time and a fair bit of effort and conversing. Sure it was more personal, or at the very least more social. But I wanted to play my game, not sit around waiting for a response or looking for those additional people to show up in chat.

I remember that when I played FFXI. It was the reason why I stopped playing. 

I kept logging in everyday to spam chat for a group to grind with. This usually took hours since I played dps. Then it struck me. I'm paying a monthly fee to be unable to do anything if I don't get a party.

So, I stopped playing it and moved on.

iixviiiix

What happened to WOW was what happened to MMO genre so even not WOW player , i do feel the same .

Sandmanjw

Dunno why players always crap on the dev's...not like they say lets work for a year or so then watch the mob go through all that time and effort in a month and then rag on us for not enough content.

Do players really want to go back to waiting an hour for groups that then die to the smallest mistake, and all disband because people get mad?

Or sitting around a small camp waiting on mana or whatever, or a mob to spawn?

No...the dev's follow what the mob demands. They are quite content to sell the mob pretty mounts, or max level upgrades to skip content.

Guess what....you, the players, are the mob....you got what was demanded. Maybe not YOU in particular....but remember that old trope...look to your left...now look to your right....THOSE are the mob. They have just as much, maybe even more, cash to spend...so we get what they demand...HAPPY gaming, right?

So who is to blame again?

Utinni

tzervo said:

Linif said:

See this is a thing I don't understand and probably never will. People enjoy the "good ol' days" of spamming chats looking for parties, sitting minutes to hours to form up and crack on with the content. My experience with that was FF11.

I hated that system. It took time and a fair bit of effort and conversing. Sure it was more personal, or at the very least more social. But I wanted to play my game, not sit around waiting for a response or looking for those additional people to show up in chat.

....

Am I off-base here? Is there something I'm missing?

Both systems have merits. You are not off-base, it really is a matter of preference. Most people like the QoL of LFG which is why it prevailed.

I love the GW2 system which is a very nice middle ground. There is an LFG tool but it is not fully automated. You can create your own entry there so that people can join, together with a description, and you still have to go to the spot of the dungeon/raid to join. Brilliant if you ask me:

- You avoid chat spamming and can group up and go for the content fast.
- The description can set the expectations (i.e. quick run, chill run, training, LI/role requirements for raids etc).
- The players still need to go to the location of the dungeon/raid, so you do not lose the feeling of being in the world. Of course, the extensive fast-travel system and the fast-access raid aerodrome area detract from that.
- This tool is super flexible and you can use it for anything from achievements to events to dungeons to raids to whatever.

This is how WoW's LFG tool works as well. The Dungeon Finder/LFR tool is only used for a very small percentage of content while normal/heroic/mythic raids, world bosses, mythic dungeons, achievements, transmog and mount runs, holiday events etc are all done using a system you described.

Iselin

QOL improvements in games were much needed. I tried WOW classic last year just to see if I was misremembering and nope, I wasn't.

I just needed one thing to remind me:

Shared credit and XP for mob kills is infinitely superior to "first hit tags it all to yourself." Like seriously? In a multiplayer game? And no, it's not better if you group. That just turns it into a group v. group mob tagging competition instead of a player v. player one in the thousands of spots in the game where the specific mobs spawn required for the "kill 15 ___" quest. Add spawn rates that don't adjust to account for player density in the vicinity and you have a perfect recipe for an annoying time waster.

Just one example of the crap mechanics we lived with back in the "glory days" that I'm not about to nostalgically glorify.

What we need is improvement on what we currently have just like improvements were made to what was there before.

Sovrath

Linif said:

See this is a thing I don't understand and probably never will.


Sure it was more personal, or at the very least more social. 

Am I off-base here? Is there something I'm missing?

You do understand it, you're just acknowledging it.

Bloodaxes

tzervo said:

Bloodaxes said:

I kept logging in everyday to spam chat for a group to grind with. This usually took hours since I played dps. Then it struck me. I'm paying a monthly fee to be unable to do anything if I don't get a party.

So, I stopped playing it and moved on.

These games are way more pleasant if you are in a guild and organize runs from there. So you could say: I am paying a monthly fee for a game that strongly encourages static groups and socializing/grouping up in guilds. If you do not belong to that set of players then the game was not targeted at you.

Regardless, to argue both sides here: I never had issues forming static groups and more personal relationships in games that had LFG tools either, so I am not entirely convinced how much of an advantage the lack of LFG tool is in this respect.

Well, I didn't join the game at launch so the guilds I was in participated in endgame mainly. They did help me with a dungeon or two, but leveling not really.

Gorwe

Po_gg said:

I'm a bit confused about the question, and would rather not pick teams (wasn't too much into Wowcraft, nor WH40k).

On a more general sense, it's a great flick, applies to almost all MMORPGs of "old". Which makes it kinda sad, whilst it should be a fun video  

The question is:

Comfortable, but rote routine(Nurgle)

vs

Uncomfortable, but necessary change(Tzeentch)

Think very hard when you choose.

Po_gg

Gorwe said:

Po_gg said:

I'm a bit confused about the question, and would rather not pick teams (wasn't too much into Wowcraft, nor WH40k).

On a more general sense, it's a great flick, applies to almost all MMORPGs of "old". Which makes it kinda sad, whilst it should be a fun video  

The question is:

Comfortable, but rote routine(Nurgle)

vs

Uncomfortable, but necessary change(Tzeentch)

Think very hard when you choose.

That clears things up, so it wasn't about the video itself and how games changed over time, but the feel towards change itself...  so the key part is actually this one:

Gorwe said:

I get it, the change hasn't been kind, but...would it be better without it?

Well, no need to think very hard, Nurgle it is (for me, at least)

In life, change is inevitable on the broader sense, there's even a law about it in thermodynamics. Entropy itself is change, kinda like it's WH version Nurgal's Rot

But if the choices are change to the worse, or (trying to) keep the status quo, I'm always with the latter.

Like how AoC is.

Maintenance mode over crappy streamline "revamps", that's my preference - IF the change means crappy streamlining, but in today's era of the genre, sadly, that's a given.

I'd love to have changes with good updates, but those are the rare exceptions.

That was discussed to the teeth around the time Funcom killed TSW for Legends, and I believe the best summary about my approach to change is:

If it ain't broke, don't fucking break it.

Amaranthar

Linif said:

See this is a thing I don't understand and probably never will. People enjoy the "good ol' days" of spamming chats looking for parties, sitting minutes to hours to form up and crack on with the content. My experience with that was FF11.

I hated that system. It took time and a fair bit of effort and conversing. Sure it was more personal, or at the very least more social. But I wanted to play my game, not sit around waiting for a response or looking for those additional people to show up in chat.

I like the current system now. Sure, the monetization is lame. Cool-looking mounts locked behind a cash shop, but at the same time, it hasn't affected my gameplay. I can still get rare stuff from doing hard content. The biggest and most obvious problem is Act-Bli's time-gating nonsense and learning curve/difficulty curve pointing almost directly down.

I honestly don't understand why Act-Bli having a cash shop is such a problem for some people. The boosting, okay I can see why that may be a problem. It makes the world more empty during the leveling journey. Everything else? It literally doesn't affect you.

Am I off-base here? Is there something I'm missing?

In a single player game it wouldn't. 

Gorwe

Amaranthar said:

Linif said:

See this is a thing I don't understand and probably never will. People enjoy the "good ol' days" of spamming chats looking for parties, sitting minutes to hours to form up and crack on with the content. My experience with that was FF11.

I hated that system. It took time and a fair bit of effort and conversing. Sure it was more personal, or at the very least more social. But I wanted to play my game, not sit around waiting for a response or looking for those additional people to show up in chat.

I like the current system now. Sure, the monetization is lame. Cool-looking mounts locked behind a cash shop, but at the same time, it hasn't affected my gameplay. I can still get rare stuff from doing hard content. The biggest and most obvious problem is Act-Bli's time-gating nonsense and learning curve/difficulty curve pointing almost directly down.

I honestly don't understand why Act-Bli having a cash shop is such a problem for some people. The boosting, okay I can see why that may be a problem. It makes the world more empty during the leveling journey. Everything else? It literally doesn't affect you.

Am I off-base here? Is there something I'm missing?

In a single player game it wouldn't. 

It wouldn't what? Also, singleplayers are the best! Especially when they're mostly offline too.

Amaranthar

Gorwe said:

Amaranthar said:

Linif said:

See this is a thing I don't understand and probably never will. People enjoy the "good ol' days" of spamming chats looking for parties, sitting minutes to hours to form up and crack on with the content. My experience with that was FF11.

I hated that system. It took time and a fair bit of effort and conversing. Sure it was more personal, or at the very least more social. But I wanted to play my game, not sit around waiting for a response or looking for those additional people to show up in chat.

I like the current system now. Sure, the monetization is lame. Cool-looking mounts locked behind a cash shop, but at the same time, it hasn't affected my gameplay. I can still get rare stuff from doing hard content. The biggest and most obvious problem is Act-Bli's time-gating nonsense and learning curve/difficulty curve pointing almost directly down.

I honestly don't understand why Act-Bli having a cash shop is such a problem for some people. The boosting, okay I can see why that may be a problem. It makes the world more empty during the leveling journey. Everything else? It literally doesn't affect you.

Am I off-base here? Is there something I'm missing?

In a single player game it wouldn't. 

It wouldn't what? Also, singleplayers are the best! Especially when they're mostly offline too.

Affect you. (The CS.) Sorry I didn't elaborate.
In an MMORPG you are part of a world full of other players. People who can spend more (or anything) in a CS get things instantly that you have to spend time to get, which can be time consuming. Many items can only be had through the CS, I believe. 
That's unfair, and it does affect a player in an MMORPG, where it's not relevant in a SP game because you're not in the same world together with other players. 

Kyleran

Iselin said:

QOL improvements in games were much needed. I tried WOW classic last year just to see if I was misremembering and nope, I wasn't.

I just needed one thing to remind me:

Shared credit and XP for mob kills is infinitely superior to "first hit tags it all to yourself." Like seriously? In a multiplayer game? And no, it's not better if you group. That just turns it into a group v. group mob tagging competition instead of a player v. player one in the thousands of spots in the game where the specific mobs spawn required for the "kill 15 ___" quest. Add spawn rates that don't adjust to account for player density in the vicinity and you have a perfect recipe for an annoying time waster.

Just one example of the crap mechanics we lived with back in the "glory days" that I'm not about to nostalgically glorify.

What we need is improvement on what we currently have just like improvements were made to what was there before.

Funny thing is my adult son went back to Classic and loved it, so did many of his friends so they are all fired up with the BC launch and talking about what comes next.

You view the mob tagging as bad, they see it as just being competitive, he who hits the firstest gets the mostest.

Preference is a funny thing, what you or I don't care for other people have no issue with it, weird.

Iselin

Kyleran said:

Iselin said:

QOL improvements in games were much needed. I tried WOW classic last year just to see if I was misremembering and nope, I wasn't.

I just needed one thing to remind me:

Shared credit and XP for mob kills is infinitely superior to "first hit tags it all to yourself." Like seriously? In a multiplayer game? And no, it's not better if you group. That just turns it into a group v. group mob tagging competition instead of a player v. player one in the thousands of spots in the game where the specific mobs spawn required for the "kill 15 ___" quest. Add spawn rates that don't adjust to account for player density in the vicinity and you have a perfect recipe for an annoying time waster.

Just one example of the crap mechanics we lived with back in the "glory days" that I'm not about to nostalgically glorify.

What we need is improvement on what we currently have just like improvements were made to what was there before.

Funny thing is my adult son went back to Classic and loved it, so did many of his friends so they are all fired up with the BC launch and talking about what comes next.

You view the mob tagging as bad, they see it as just being competitive, he who hits the firstest gets the mostest.

Preference is a funny thing, what you or I don't care for other people have no issue with it, weird.

Competition for mobs would be fine in a PvP game because it can lead to PvP. But WoW is not a FFA PvP game -- it's faction based, and you are hardly ever competing to tag quest mobs with the other faction. 99% of the time you're competing against others of your own faction and you can't kill them even when you want to.

Anyway, that's not unique to WOW classic. Competitive tagging was a feature in all the older MMOs and even post-WOW in LOTRO, SWTOR, etc., for...reasons. It never made sense to me and always annoyed me especially when playing a class that didn't have a good instant skill.

In PvE games or areas of games, you're supposed to be selling the fiction that it's we, the players, against some evil shit. It makes a hell of a lot more sense to me that the mechanics reinforce that since you're supposed to be all together against the evil hordes. It should always be a good thing if someone drops by your area and helps you kill what you're trying to kill instead of disliking it because you know they're going to slow yo down. Competing for mobs in those PvE situations doesn't make any sense.

Some older MMOs may have had cooperative tagging but I don't recall seeing that until I played GW2 and it has become the norm in PvE games since that. It's a damn good change I think.

MonsutaMan

Disclaimer: Nothing to do with Blizz workplace culture, which could put the OP thread at risk of getting closed.

People must really hate WoW....

I never been a fan of WoW; or "Classic" mmo, but retail. Surely the game can't be that bad......

(Also, XI had mob competition....It became toxic during XI's prime years. People would actually get into fights in town about what happened outside of town in the open world for the claim of a NM lol.....)

Tiller

Good lord what's up with all the banned folks? lol, what happened?

AlBQuirky

Tiller said:

Good lord what's up with all the banned folks? lol, what happened?

Enquiring (sic) minds want to know!

("Enquirer" was the rag celeb gossip paper who used that line in their ads )

KnightFalz

Amaranthar said:

Gorwe said:

Amaranthar said:

Linif said:

See this is a thing I don't understand and probably never will. People enjoy the "good ol' days" of spamming chats looking for parties, sitting minutes to hours to form up and crack on with the content. My experience with that was FF11.

I hated that system. It took time and a fair bit of effort and conversing. Sure it was more personal, or at the very least more social. But I wanted to play my game, not sit around waiting for a response or looking for those additional people to show up in chat.

I like the current system now. Sure, the monetization is lame. Cool-looking mounts locked behind a cash shop, but at the same time, it hasn't affected my gameplay. I can still get rare stuff from doing hard content. The biggest and most obvious problem is Act-Bli's time-gating nonsense and learning curve/difficulty curve pointing almost directly down.

I honestly don't understand why Act-Bli having a cash shop is such a problem for some people. The boosting, okay I can see why that may be a problem. It makes the world more empty during the leveling journey. Everything else? It literally doesn't affect you.

Am I off-base here? Is there something I'm missing?

In a single player game it wouldn't. 

It wouldn't what? Also, singleplayers are the best! Especially when they're mostly offline too.

Affect you. (The CS.) Sorry I didn't elaborate.
In an MMORPG you are part of a world full of other players. People who can spend more (or anything) in a CS get things instantly that you have to spend time to get, which can be time consuming. Many items can only be had through the CS, I believe. 
That's unfair, and it does affect a player in an MMORPG, where it's not relevant in a SP game because you're not in the same world together with other players. 

Online gaming has never been fair. When it wasn't money providing advantage it was comparatively abundant free time. They will never be fair so grousing over who currently has the advantage and how isn't going to change that, making it pointless.

The best one can do when they can't avoid a cash shop altogether is find a game they enjoy that has one the least unfair for what they want to do.

Tiller

tzervo said:

Jean-Luc_Picard said:

Sometimes humans are unable to control what they are saying, or even typing... happened to me too

When I see members being banned whose behaviour has been more than exemplary all those years I find it easier to assume trigger happy moderation than a member suddenly going out of rails. Even if it was a one-off poster's fault, past history and good behaviour should matter.

I know the staff has a tricky task moderating these forums but I am still very disappointed with mmorpg.com's recent handling of events.

That or the poster just got triggered by something and said something better left unsaid. Happens to all of us.

Amaranthar

KnightFalz said:

Amaranthar said:

Gorwe said:

Amaranthar said:

Linif said:

See this is a thing I don't understand and probably never will. People enjoy the "good ol' days" of spamming chats looking for parties, sitting minutes to hours to form up and crack on with the content. My experience with that was FF11.

I hated that system. It took time and a fair bit of effort and conversing. Sure it was more personal, or at the very least more social. But I wanted to play my game, not sit around waiting for a response or looking for those additional people to show up in chat.

I like the current system now. Sure, the monetization is lame. Cool-looking mounts locked behind a cash shop, but at the same time, it hasn't affected my gameplay. I can still get rare stuff from doing hard content. The biggest and most obvious problem is Act-Bli's time-gating nonsense and learning curve/difficulty curve pointing almost directly down.

I honestly don't understand why Act-Bli having a cash shop is such a problem for some people. The boosting, okay I can see why that may be a problem. It makes the world more empty during the leveling journey. Everything else? It literally doesn't affect you.

Am I off-base here? Is there something I'm missing?

In a single player game it wouldn't. 

It wouldn't what? Also, singleplayers are the best! Especially when they're mostly offline too.

Affect you. (The CS.) Sorry I didn't elaborate.
In an MMORPG you are part of a world full of other players. People who can spend more (or anything) in a CS get things instantly that you have to spend time to get, which can be time consuming. Many items can only be had through the CS, I believe. 
That's unfair, and it does affect a player in an MMORPG, where it's not relevant in a SP game because you're not in the same world together with other players. 

Online gaming has never been fair. When it wasn't money providing advantage it was comparatively abundant free time. They will never be fair so grousing over who currently has the advantage and how isn't going to change that, making it pointless.

The best one can do when they can't avoid a cash shop altogether is find a game they enjoy that has one the least unfair for what they want to do.

As you know, nothing is perfect. It's not possible. 
But when you compare a game design where the difference in "fairness" is because of a Player's available time vs. a game company's built in rewards for CASH, well, I hope you can see the difference there. 

I don't agree that that's the best option in avoiding Cash Shops. 
The best option is to simply not play any of them. 
That's been easy for me, since I already don't play any of them (as you know) because of the rest of the game design. 
It's a double whammy of bad gaming design. (Actually more than that.) 

Ungood

While I have not played WoW, I felt this, from other games I have played.

Jemcrystal

Mass exodus of WoW players (again) as they grow up and grow bored.