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An opinion about why WoW is unsatisfying
Cryomatrix
Member EpicPosts: 3,223
Hi guys.
This is my first post here and I'd like extend a nice warm greeting. 
For a quick introduction. I used to be a Diablo 2 junkie. I played Hardcore and was a pker/dueler. The hardcore theme completely got me hooked, I don't see the point of playing an RPG or of building up a character, when there is no consequence for failing. Thus hardcore was the only way to go. (For those unfamiliar with hardcore diablo, when your character died, he was gone along with all the gear and equipment except those who set loot for their friends).
I find myself with 3 weeks of free time, by free, I mean no work or classes. So I was thinking of picking up a game for 3 weeks before my graduate school begins. So I was researching games and I decided to download Eq II: Trial of the isle. I figured I'd try out the game that people called "Evercrack". It was decent but it didn't have the allure to it that I found with a blizzard game. So I then went off and researched MMORPG's and I've been researching them for the past couple of days and as you can see I've descended upon WoW. After reading a myriad of reviews and opinions of WoW. The consensus I received was that it is a well done game that is ridiculously easy (can be soloed) and is very satisfying up until you reach lvl 60.
One thing I was recently thinking about was why Blizzard games are so damn addicting but are not satisfying to the hardcore gamer. Since the world is based on money, I first pondered the question with money as the basis.
After having 3-4 years of experience with blizzard and how they never fail to screw up their games with poor economy design, poor security, and crappy servers. I realized that they only care about the money, which is obvious, but seriously, they only care about the money. That is one reason WoW is very easy. Think of what draws people in?
Good graphics, a good story, easy game play, a tool for relaxation, a lively community, variety, etc. For the majority of people who play the game that is all Blizzard needs to satisfy. However, Blizzard runs into problems when the hardcore gamers who think about games and who are proactively thinking about how it could be better start playing the game. You end up thinking to yourself how could they design something that is so pointless to the game or is counterproductive.
For example, In the expansion for Diablo they allowed Magic finding of monsters in which players just farmed the bosses for their drops. The problem with this is that it essentially makes 90% of the unique/rare items obsolete. "Just keep magic finding, you'll eventually get 'insert uber item here'." The problem was that everyone had the same exact equipment, there was no variety and this even flooded into the PvP realm. For any hardcore gamer, you would be like that is an ill-advised system, the economy is essentially ruined, 90% of uniques/rares are useless
But, if they are supposedly the masters of making good games, then why did they do something that most hardcore gamers would dislike? I think the reason is because most gamers are not hardcore, most gamers want things easy, they want the good items, they want the best equipment, they want to level up quickly and they want everything at their doorstep.
For Blizzard's bottom line, that optimizes profit, but who suffer, the hardcore gamers. I assume WoW can be aided by making hero levels and for expanding options for the lvl 60's. But the basis of the game will not satisfy the diverse desires of the hardcore gamers.
In conclusion, my point is that Blizzard makes their games to maximize profit and when they do that, their games will not satisfy hardcore gamers for too long and Blizzard doesn't care about hardcore gamers, the casual player makes up the bulk of their audience. I've always been annoyed when I've seen suggestions that I think most people would universally agree on go unheeded. But then I realized why would they change the game to appease hardcore games when it would alienate the majority of their audience base.
I was thinking to myself If I were to make an MMORPG I would make it in everyway that would satisfy my desires (and those of perceived hardcore gamers) and I think if this were to happen, I would guess that it would fail. The reason it would fail is because if it is geared for hardcore gamers, the casual player will try it, dislike it, not recommend it to their friends, and then I wouldn't have the attraction of word of mouth or enough financial support and the game will fail. Of course for me, it would be perfect but you see where the problem lies. What I think Blizzard should do when they design a game. Well before anything fix their crappy servers/lag and what not. But they need to design the bulk of the game for the casual player and then via TIMELY expansions or patches (Not blizzard's thing) increase the appeal to hardcore gamers. For examples with WoW, increase the lvl cap, add new areas, upgrade PvP, perhaps introduce Hardcore servers, meaning when your character dies, he cannot be resurrected and he loses all items and equipment unless looted by a friend (diablo style). Then the challenge would be, who dares do an instance when the loot may not be worth the risk to ones life.
The most fun I've ever had in Diablo was of course when a third-party re-did a substantial portion of it with a new mod and new changes and that in a team of 5 players I was sure a number of the party would die in this particular quest. My heart was pounding it felt like an achievement when we were finished (1 died - my RL friend too, it couldn't have been the kid I hated) . Of course, this is a hardcore gamer talking here, I think most people would never play a game in which when you die your character is lost forever. But in my opinion, why try to find the best gear and equipment if, in reality, there isn't a benefit from it except killing monsters a tad quicker and being "1337". Since, the consequence for dying in WoW is quite paltry, who cares if you have the best items. I don't think games should be item dependent, meaning that if a person just goes through the game naturally they should acquire adequate items to maintain the challenging environment. If you are lucky and happen to get a lucky drop then more power to you. But I would hate a game in which you can't proceed without the best items and I also hate a game in which it doesn't matter either.
Furthermore, I wouldn't mind paying $25-30 per month if it would eliminate the community members who sour the gaming experience for many people. But of course that wouldn't happen, Blizzard's economic consultants calculate the supply (i assume it's limitless or I guess it may be server space) and the demand curves and set the price where they intersect. The problem is it's cheap enough that many immature people will play it and ruin the experience for many.
Disclaimer: I am making a large number of assumptions here. The first is that the audience base is largely casual players. Second is that the hardcore gamers are largely unsatisfied with Blizzard games. Thirdly, the basis of my argument is that Blizzard does this to make money, but I'm more confident that this one is truth. Furthermore, even though I didn't define casual gamer as opposed to hardcore gamer you can catch my drift.
Thanks for the read,
Cryomatrix
You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
Comments
it least you express your opinion ..well first not all of us have 7 hrs a day to play a game and second ..you don't need any skill to play a mmog ..only lots of time and a full bank account to get ur uber gear from ige.com <> then you can tell evryone "YEAH I AM TEH UBAH BEAST, Check out my sexy weapan.. who wants to touc meh ? "
I wish people woudl stop making these "I know what's wrong with WoW" topics. There isn't anything with WoW people. It has 3.5 million subscribers so obviously it's doing something RIGHT for that many people to join. Guild Wars fans brag that GW is superior in everyway, yet GW only had 200,000 during beta and 4 months later only gain 400,000 more where as WoW amassed 500,000 players during and gain 700,000 more in the very same time period. Might I add that Guild Wars was rejected by the Asian Market, which widely accepts most MMORPGs.
Even though ANET made enough to successfully spawn a sequel; hopefully, the company has learned that gameplay with little content, can't keep players entertained for long. GWs updates, which have been so overhype, are nothing more than an attempt to fix the many bugs in the game. The game was half-ass and delievered with little content. If you don't believe me, look at the update archives. You'll see more "fix bug" updates then content updates. Their added content in the past has torn the game into pieces due to their poor testing ability of the added content and with the lack of in-game moderation, the game community makes it nigh unbearable for minority players to exist in such a game.
Again, if the "hardcore" players you speak for do not like what's going on in WoW, this game would be generating the same numbers as EQ2 and GW. If anything, a game with 300,000 players to 600,000 players is pretty average since most of todays top games open/sale up to 1 million players. So it's safe to say that you do not know what's wrong with WoW and moreover, what you are reflecting in your rant is just your a personal opinion.
--Nyture, Arc Convoker of fironia vie server (EQ) --Retired--
-- Nytur 39 Conjuror of Lucan D'lere (Quit due to low populations)
-- Currently playing WoW while waiting for vanguard
Explorer 66%
Socializer 60%
Killer 53%
Achiever 20%
PLEASE SOE MAKE A CLASSIC EQ SERVER. Shadow of luclin was a prick in EQs side. PoP Was a gun to the face.
Maybe at the low lvl were you can just run at somthing they make it easy for the low lvl's for a reason every game makes it easy for beginers and if they dont then people will drop it.Saying it takes no skill to play wow is a silly statement cause you cant just run in to everything and bash buttons and win. So does time spent on a game make it better if its harder for you to lvl do you like it more?
It sounds to me like alot of people think that if a game is harder to get to the top its better that weeds out all the newbies and non elites and people that arnt serois about the game,but wow does that as well it has its own way of weeding out people and the thing i like most is i dont have to spend four hours lfg i can turn it on play and turn it off and go on with my life if you wanna spend the time and the money to lvl up at somthing hard go ahead more power to you.But some others have work or school we dont have 8 hours to stand around in town hollering lfg or selling stuff or waiting for zones to load (when i first played wow the no loading time thing was a huge deal to me),So yeah i can see were some of the hardcore gamers are annoyed that they can lvl to max lvl in a month when you spend 8hours or more a day on somthing isnt it only right that you progress?To all the poeple that just play when we can its not that big of a deal we are seeing progress for the time we are putting in it even its its 30 minutes or an hour.
Demoku: Anarchy Online (Rimor)
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Don't click here...no2
only terrible thing i hate in wow that its a gambling game if you unlucky like me and i have played 8months with beta included never won a or looted a epic item play 10hours+ a day thats where i think wow failed 100%:(
Gamble for epic item or good items in raid and party i hate it.
Some stupid noob who play 1 hour a day comes in party and win epic thats frustrating:(
Hope to build full AMD system RYZEN/VEGA/AM4!!!
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GPU: AMD Fury X(waiting for BIG VEGA 10 or 11 HBM2?(bit unclear now))
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PSU:Corsair AX1200i
OS:Windows 10 64bit
I've only reached level 30, but from what I've seen so far there are aspects that do require player skill, especially PvP and organised PvP (battle grounds). Especially the latter, since it needs strategy and coordination, simply running around and hitting everything you see won't get you anywhere. Of course, there are better games like EVE Online who excel in organised PvP. Furthermore, from what I've seen from my RL friends, high level raids can be really really tough (of course, WoW fails to give a variety of high level content and the slow updates don't help much).
From my perspective, it is not skill that WoW lacks of, it's depth. All the quests I've encountered so far are simply a matter of "Go there, kill that/get that". They're pretty clear on their objectives and not much seaarching around has to be done. From that aspect, I've enjoyed EQ2's quests far more, as they involve quest events (Alone in the Dark, boat rides, final part of GEB where lava rises, Heart of Fear ring event and the way the ring event is activated, etc. etc.) or may involve riddles (Tarton's Wheel).
Currently playing:
* City of Heroes: Deggial, Assault Rifle/Devices Blaster. Server: Defiant.
* City of Villains: Snakeroot, Plant/Thorns Dominator. Server: Defiant.
Thanks, Cryomatrix, for a well written and well made post.
To whoever it was that bashed the OP, REREAD it. he is NOT bashing WoW nor saying that the game is crap or anything like that.
He is just expressing why it can be unsatisfying to him and to hardcore gamers, in addition he even gives options and offer advice on how to make it not so, this, if i might say, is a constructive post and should be kept as an example for all WoW bashers out there.
I tend to agree with you, Cryomatrix, and defines myself as a Casual gamer. I'm also starting to think of the term not in "hours per week spend" as i can very well pull 20-30 hours/week in WoW, but how a game is approached.
Hardcore gamers are seeking challenges and hard things in their game, this is how they get fun. Most casual do not seek that, but just a game that can be fun and relaxing in a few minutes or couple hour and where you can decide where and how you need concentration and focus.
WoW appeals to the latter and not to the formers, evidently. (Even if i heard some of the latest end-game instances are pretty hard, they are still just half a dozen for now... still, they are being added all the time so....:P).
Anyhow, the idea of an "hardcore" server is a good one, where some rules tweak might be made to offer a more challenging and fun experience to the hardcore people, not satisfied with the normal gameplay, i hope more harcore gamers would think and write like you, Cryomatrix, and would write so to Blizzard itself so that your wishes might be rewarded.
contrary to many's belief, Blizzard do seems to listen to their player base, as the imminent creation of RP-PvP servers and the new "See it on yourself before you buy it" interface , both results of community requests, proves. Of course they can't do everything at once and some requests might be against their vision or the wish of the other players, but this one advice do not seems bad to me at all.
Have a nice day
EDIT: corrected a typo
"If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day, if you teach him how to fish, you feed him for a lifetime"
I agree alot... I really enjoyed it until i started getting epic items from Molten Core ect and suddenly thought to myself, ok, what am i trying to acheve by doing this, i was the leader of one of the biggest guilds on the server , but what did that get me? easier access to Big instances and guild chat? As i started seeing it you didn't gain alot from beeing in a guild, you could just aswell play with your m8's in instances without it, so it worked mostly as nothing more than a place to connect people and have a socially good time, wich is not bad but a guild should be able to do more. And when i havd "TeH UbEr GeAr" after tonns of grinding for cash and healing parties for 9999th time, i did not see any place to use it, ok, there was battlegrounds, BUT, i enjoyed beeing a shadowpriest but i got flamed constantly for doing damage in Battlegrounds so i turned holy and went back to healing parties... Not that that is a bad thing but i didn't see any oposition, i did not see why i was so pissed at the alliance when alot of them were good guy's and i was just fighting for a cause set by blizzard at no risk against a race that i was told not to like cause i couldn't comunicat with them... I played alot of lineage2 before and atleast there you get a meaning to all the grinding, if you have a good guild/clan/alliance, you can get castles, economical power ect and there was a risk of dying. (loosing exp and possibly itmes) and there you have the political elements aswell... Your enemy is chosen by yourself and you have a reason to fight. And thats what i think blizzard is missing, the politics and power bit, cause that will keep you playing it and it gets more dynamic. So as it is now WoW is a pretty game wich will entertain you for a while, but L2 f.eks is a game you settle down with. For me i have gone back to L2 again after all of this, and yes, i enjoyed wow alot, but it just didn't give me a reason to stay, BUT i will say this in favour of blizzard, MANY of the ones playing WoW had never toutched a MMORPG before but since blizzard is such a household name the manage to make a game that could introduce EVERYONE to the world of MMORPG's in a good way. Cause there is not alot of intrigues ect there and its a very nice game to play. I think that was partly what blizzard was aming for aswell so i am just saying that it wasn't for me... But if you are new to mmorpgs its a damn good place to start
It is sad I really wanted to like WoW, it is a warcraft game & I played the past WC games. When I started though I was greeted by a pick a charecter screen not a make a charecter screen. Well that was ok not good though, then I went into a PvP realm with this candy cartoon world, didn't really fit the warcraft title, like care-a-lot where the carbears lived only not in the clouds, but still I manged to play until level 32, with a human mage. So I got to the PvPing kill a charecter, what not lootable. Well I will join my guild in a raid well this is kind of cool, but there is no way to take a town & make it your sides. So ya the game lost my interst in a few months, plus mob drops are better many times than not, so a tailor for example can't feel special cuase it it a lot easier to go shoping or hunting & get a better robe for instance. I wouldn't really want permadeath though, but lootable bodies (only unequiped item) would be great or at least the ability for a raid group to take a town for thier side.
Volkmar, you really need to read these post before agree, maybe you'll come off as half as smart as you post.
http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm/loadFeature/196
One of the reasons why they'll never put hardcore rules in is because of ganking. Gankers will only ruin the game. A guy in Japan today created two bots to gank another players and the guys was arrest for trying to sell them on Ebay. If you implement hardcore rules/servers, gankers are only going to flock to such servers with dreams of quick get rich schemes.
Ive said it before and ill say it again>>>Blizzard took PvP and made it carebear.
No lootable bodies.
No armor drops.
No gold drops.
If they REALLY wanted to make the game interesting and a lot more fun here is a list of things to do.
1.Implement the "armor fragment" drops outside of the battlegrounds.
2.Land control.Kill all the guards in a town/city and the town changes factions for a period of 24 hours.If players fail to change it back the town starts to change to an undead city.Every 24 hours players can change it back only the #1 reason makes it more difficult.
3.Make PvP matter beyond a point system.
4.Make bodies lootable.
5.Highest armor/weapon drops off a player that loses in PvP
Implement these 5 suggestions on a "hardcore" server and i can bet that it would be full within a week and Blizzard would open another one with this ruleset.
Want to ENJOY an mmo?
Dont start a guild and dont be a leader or volunteer to be coleader or captain.
Just play the damn game:)
LoL
If I posted a "what's wrong with EQ2" thread, based purely on other players opinions of the game, and never played it myself, what would you think of me?
Volkmar, you really need to read these post before agree, maybe you'll come off as half as smart as you post.
http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm/loadFeature/196
One of the reasons why they'll never put hardcore rules in is because of ganking. Gankers will only ruin the game. A guy in Japan today created two bots to gank another players and the guys was arrest for trying to sell them on Ebay. If you implement hardcore rules/servers, gankers are only going to flock to such servers with dreams of quick get rich schemes.
you sure i am the one that needs to reread these posts? cause in yours, you say you do not want anymore of these "what's wrong in wow" posts and do not even realize this is not one of them.
Reread Cryomatrix post and find out he realizes the game is fine as it is for casual gamers and suppose, rightly in my opinion, that those gamers represent the majority of the market and that's exactly why WoW is like that.
He even says that making a MMorpg like he would like would make it probably fail cause not many people would play on it.
What? you think WoW has no "gankers"? didn't think so. It has and everyone knows that any PvP game will have them. So what exactly is wrong with making hardcore ruleset servers if this would appease a part of the community? At least, many of them would maybe flock there and leave the rest of the servers free
... and if that is what the hardcore population wants, be welcome i say.
"If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day, if you teach him how to fish, you feed him for a lifetime"
Whatever "Captainrpg" you sound like a player thats frightened of losing your armor and probably terrified of losing in PvP.
World of Warcraft is the most carebear game ive ever had the displeasure of playing.No risk of losing anything other than faction no risk of anything.
Im not going to explain anything about those ideas because i dont have to.The 5 ideas i listed are all implemented in AO,L2 and Shadowbane.All 3 games doing well not like they used to but thats the market place as well.
WoW is for begginers and players terrified of losing any armor or weapons in PvP.What do you think most EVERY item is soulbound for?
Want to ENJOY an mmo?
Dont start a guild and dont be a leader or volunteer to be coleader or captain.
Just play the damn game:)
It has 3.5 million subscribers so obviously it's doing something RIGHT for that many people to join.
--- end quote.
When did the number of subscribers become the barometer for RIGHT, as in the sentence above? For that matter, the game may be the suckiest thing ever released and still be so mind-numbingly easy that it attracts hordes of players. Again, the merit of a game, it's "right" or "wrong", it's being "good" or "bad" has NOTHING to do with subscriber numbers. It has everything to do with WHY each of us plays MMORPGs. Was WoW "right" to me, a good game to me? Nope. Does that mean it's automatically "wrong" or "bad" for everyone else? Nope. Saying the above comment is as ridiculous as "this game suxs cause I say so".
I found WoW initially interesting, but after spending time with it, after putting several characters to 60, it stopped being "fun" at all. I had a blast with Everquest ONE because it felt like I had to actually think and put effort into earning my skills. WoW hands everything to you, requires very little in the way of involving thought, and utterly loses its way in the upper levels. My last character took such little time to get to 60, because by then each and every map had been seen, and given the utterly static nature of the maps (Blizzard having said they have no intention of having "events" or "time progression" that actually changes anything, it will remain utterly static going forward), it's autopilot. Never hit the "autopilot" feeling in any game prior to WoW -- AC1, AC2 (yuck, what a waste of potential), EQ1, EQ2, SWG, DAoC, and more (since the days of MUDs).
Again, does this mean that the game is bad? It is to me, because it's just too damned simple and too static. But that reason, being simple in design and not requiring, to me, much thought or effort, is EXACTLY why it has the huge subscriber base it has. Dumb anything down and you'll get the masses in throngs. Makes the game "right" for those people -- and "wrong" for me and many others.
It would go far if people would stop the idiotic "this game suxs cause i said so" garbage, and the "it's got the biggest subscribers therefore it's the best" junk too.
To me there is nothing wrong with the game.
There is a reason for that though. I came to WoW after Everquest (played for about 1 1/2). I couldn't stay in EQ because before that I came from MU Online. I am now sick of playing a game like a second job and WoW is a nice relief from the more difficult game. Everquest was good but after grinding forever for no reason in MU I wanted a change.
MU is possibly the worst MMORPG. You talk about ganking lower lvls in WoW. Try MU. The high lvls will gank you as soon as you walk out of town. Hackers are taking over MU. The economy is ruined after the bug exploit a while back that injected a LOT of money into the game.
Nothing bad to say about my Everquest time. It was fun but I was burnt out on MMORPGs after MU.
I tryed WoW and it was acually fun. Everything is well done. It's easy and you don't have to play constantly to get a good character.
I am not comparing MU to EQ or WoW or any other combination of the three. I am explaining why I don;t see anything wrong with WoW.
And that's my opinion.
Hey Guys,
Thanks for the responses.
The goal of my post was to give a potential reason to why players like spydermr2 have become unsatisfied with the game. I always thought to myself why would a company of MMORPG experts make a game that wouldn't appeal to purported hardcore gamers and MMORPG experts. I believe the reason is because most people are looking for fun and for relaxation, they do not want to be bothered with stress. If the game is very challenging then it will become stressful, it is just that, only the hardcore gamers will remain if that is the case and Blizzard will not make money.
I was just making a theory.
On another note, to respond to findulias, yes it is true I haven't played WoW, I almost bought it today, but then decided against it. But, If you look at the goal of my post, I am merely using WoW as a concrete example of a much broader point that video game companies make games that will in general, after a time, be unsatisfying to hardcore gamers and the reason is to get the most subscribers. I believe most WoW players love the game because they come on and play for 1-2 hours a day and after a few months they'll get to level 60, it will be their release after work. They don't play the game too much that it gets old and it is perfect for them, nice and easy and stress free. Essentially, when Blizzard creates a game, they are creating it for that audience.
Finally, Findulias, were you aware that when Watson and Crick discovered the structure of DNA that they just took all the research papers about DNA, synthesized and analyzed them, then published a paper without doing one experiment, it was essentially a library project and they won the noble prize for it.
Have a nice day guys,
Cryomatrix
You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
The lack of logical advancement and logical reward.
A soloer cant be the best soloer in the game...unless he raid. A soloer level for 60 levels, he think the game is decent and nice for soloers...then he come to realise that if he dont raid, he never "win" the game, he will always be a second class hero, way weakers then folks who dont solo and raid.
Talk of a bad ending that feel unsatisfying...cant be any worser, first Blizzard product to behave this way, and it is crippling Blizzard fanbase, everyday...on 3.5 millions players, who were at 80%+ already Blizzard fan, I am sure a decent amount leave the game, not a Blizzard fan anymore, on a daily basic, because of that "must raid ending". Taking a "SoE/Verant" approach for this problematic will leave Blizzard in a similar situation that SoE meets years after abusing it...with a crippled fanbase.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Reread Cryomatrix post and find out he realizes the game is fine as it is for casual gamers and suppose, rightly in my opinion, that those gamers represent the majority of the market and that's exactly why WoW is like that.
Nope, only 300,000 people in both Europe and America bought brought Guild Wars, which is a game for the casual gamer, for total of 600,000 players. The majority of the people up the market arent the causal player by all means.
By the way, half the players you play with, have at least 2 MMORPGs under their name.
The goal of my post was to give a potential reason to why players like spydermr2 have become unsatisfied with the game. I always thought to myself why would a company of MMORPG experts make a game that wouldn't appeal to purported hardcore gamers and MMORPG experts. I believe the reason is because most people are looking for fun and for relaxation, they do not want to be bothered with stress. If the game is very challenging then it will become stressful, it is just that, only the hardcore gamers will remain if that is the case and Blizzard will not make money.
Dont buy games then. All games cause stress to everyone. Everyone is going to find something they dont like in a game, and its going to cause stress. You arent even hardcore gamer to even be speak for every hardcore game. Hardcore gamer would ask for more challenge. They wouldnt expect less of them. As you go through the game, the responsibilities of players and teams because more colossal.
Need I remind you and the others on this topic who complain about the aspects of WoW are minority in a 3 mil populate game.
When did the number of subscribers become the barometer for RIGHT, as in the sentence above?
OMG! Its its its Delusion of Grandeur. You must be confusing philosophies The majority doesnt speak with one person with The Crowd has a voice.
3 mil people are pretty sound. Sorry, but the world doesnt revolve around you.
Whatever "Captainrpg" you sound like a player thats frightened of losing your armor and probably terrified of losing in PvP.
I havent played the PvP servers of WoW (though I have played WoW), but I have played Never Winter Night on servers with the ability to loot the bodies of dead players and Lineage 2. People will hunt you to take your stuff and sell it. And looking at the news in this game and other games, they ARE people presently in these games making a profit selling items they find or loot after a gank. Might I add, that WoW is trying to get rid of Ebay gankers.
I believe most WoW players love the game because they come on and play for 1-2 hours a day and after a few months they'll get to level 60
Most people who play MMORPGs in general play up to 4 to 8 hours.
Reread Cryomatrix post and find out he realizes the game is fine as it is for casual gamers and suppose, rightly in my opinion, that those gamers represent the majority of the market and that's exactly why WoW is like that.
Nope, only 300,000 people in both Europe and America bought brought Guild Wars, which is a game for the casual gamer, for total of 600,000 players. The majority of the people up the market arent the causal player by all means.
--- end quote ----
No, Guild Wars isn't for the "casual gamer", but a very limited subset of gamers who want to be able to PvP freely and has a general game that doesn't take much effort. Usually the phrase 'casual gamer' and PvP DON'T go together, so it's unusual to see someone lumping them together.
Blizzard is every bit as confused as SOE is with their product (EQ2). Neither one seems to be able to break away from the rigid, fixed definition of what "endgame" means. And because of that, they're both trying to figure out how to keep their base and expand from there. Blizzard has a "solo"-great game that self-destructs for those very solo-ers when they reach the "endgame"; EQ2 has a group-oriented game that hits the "endgame" and turns into a Raiding game -- except that they just spent months trying to appeal to the "solo" player, so now they're lost trying to appeal to divergent interests (that don't overlap completely or nicely).
Both of them need to decide what they want their games to be and they should focus on that. Blizzard has a more financially-successful model (so far), which gives them the luxury of money/time, though by no means can a game like EQ2 that has 300-400,000 subscribers be considered a failure (it's profitable, ergo it's not a failure).
So what's different? EQ2 ends up being a raid-game with a "group"-centric focus. WoW spends the whole way up to lvl 60 being a "solo"-centric game and then turns that on its head by turning into a raid-game with a "group"-centric focus and very few satisfying places to do that. What WoW needs to do is what I've argued EQ2 should do -- THROW OUT the predefined term "endgame" (and the raid-centric nature of that) and get CREATIVE and come up with a new, RPG-centric "endgame" that isn't an "end" to anything but a new way to progress.
For instance, and i'll use the human city as the example here: create a "nobility" structure, where once a character gets above lvl 50, they can earn titles as the city's nobility. That can be its own tree to progress up, with quests geared entirely to that progression and rewards also so geared. They could give the "Noble" the power to allocate quests that he/she, as the Noble, have open to them, so that the Noble, in turn, could gather lower-levels as his "vassals" and send them out to do the quests. This, in turn, would actually help develop a COOPERATIVE nature to the community, where people HELP each other instead of the usual l33t-speaking nOOb-hating crap that's so prevalent in the game. Just keep fleshing out the ideas -- an Arena, where nobles could (like medieval England) go to satisfy "duels of Honor", with rewards AND, more importantly, the ability to earn reputation/Honor (Honor NOT being the poorly-used word for their PvP system), which in turn they need to sustain their Noble rank.
Further, they could keep RAIDs and create a structure of RAIDs where the King comes to the Noble with quests that involve RAIDING the opposing side (wow, putting WAR into WARCRAFT), and making it the responsibility of the Noble to assemble the raid and see it to its conclusion. Success could spell special XP and reputation rewards.
Anyway. That's just one idea that took little time to come up with -- but it represents a replacement for the "endgame" that emphasizes community and ROLEPLAYING and involving the players in the community. There's a lot more that could be done with this -- but no one, not Blizzard, not Sony, are trying to break the "trap" of the pre-existing ideas of what they "have to do" in the "endgame".
Just adding more thoughts to the "alternate endgame" I offered up a sec ago. This would also create a structure for the lower-levels to play within, as they earn their own reputation points, which can be used toward special quests only available once they've acquired a certain amount of "reputation" (notoriety, infamy, etc. -- you've been out doing, and your reputation represents how much the "word" has spread of your deeds). It could also open up special rewards, like items that could only be earned through this system, or recipes or access to special forges that add to your skill when using them, etc. Also, this could be a good way to bring in player housing, by opening up, for instance, new islands (easiest way to get land for housing into the game) where there's the general (bought) housing and special housing that has to be EARNED via the reputation system. And no, just "killing" doesn't generate reputation (which is the failing of the so-called "honor" system, which fails only because it misuses the word "honor" when it should just have been "kill" or some such word).
Anyway. The ideas are there. Some of this was touched on in Asheron's Call 1 (patron/vassal, though not as detailed as I've gone into here), some of it in other PvP games. Though nothing here specifically calls for PvP (other than the Tournament Arenas), though nothing forbids it either. The point is to create a system that redefines the "endgame", actually adds significantly to the entire game, and adds incentives to the MMORPG to actually have some RPG ... and some CONSTRUCTIVE attitudes between players instead of the usual moronic endless-duel-requests/Uber-this/pWNd-that crap.
Flame away!
Actually, Guild Wars site indicates this and any GW fanboy will tell you that GW is for the casual gamer. Not to mention, it has level 20 cap limit and you can level up very fast. It only takes a weekened to get to level 20 and three days to a week to beat the game. There is a huge lack of content. You cannot taken up a talent to make money as money and equipment are not a big part of the game. The PvE is easy, so easy in fact, that you can use henchmen for the majority of the game. The game relies heavily on PvP, very good PvP, which eventually gets old.
I'm not deluded you to the fact it was a long term game, but GW isn't.