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FTC sues to block Nvidia's acquisition of ARM

QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 25,499
https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/press-releases/2021/12/ftc-sues-block-40-billion-semiconductor-chip-merger

ARM is by far the most widely used CPU architecture in the world.  It powers everything from cell phones to cars.  These days, if there's a CPU inside and the product isn't a PC, server, or game console, it probably has ARM cores inside.  And even if it is one of those types of products, it might still be powered by ARM.  Even products such as SSD controllers, FPGAs, or x86 CPUs (!) sometimes have ARM cores inside to do something or other.

So it sent shockwaves through the industry late last year when it was announced that Nvidia was buying ARM.  ARM has a well-deserved reputation for being a terrific company to work with.  Whatever you want to use ARM cores for, they'll do their utmost to provide you with everything you need for a modest licensing fee.  

That is not Nvidia's reputation.  Nvidia has a well-deserved reputation for being a terrible business partner.  They'll try for vendor lock-in any way that they can get it.  And you absolutely do not want to be in a situation where at some future date, you have to buy some unspecified future product from Nvidia at some currently unspecified price.  Nvidia will make a good product, but they'll gouge you in every way that you can think of, plus also some creative ones that you can't.  From SLI to CUDA to G-Sync and many more, Nvidia has a long list of shenanigans that make the rest of the industry very leery of having their own future business plans rely on being in Nvidia's good graces.

For example, in the last three generations of game consoles, Sony and Microsoft have each had AMD design highly customized chips to power the console.  The Nintendo Switch uses an Nvidia chip.  There's no reason why Nintendo couldn't have hired Nvidia to make a highly customized chip for them.  Well, at least other than Nintendo not having a deathwish.  The Switch uses a completely off the shelf Nvidia Tegra chip that had already been designed before Nintendo agreed to buy a bunch of them.  Microsoft and Sony trust that AMD will try to do right by them in their console designs, as AMD has in the past.  No one trusts that of Nvidia.

So Nvidia is exactly who most of the industry doesn't want to buy ARM.  What harm could Nvidia do, you ask?  Suppose that you design and build computer chips that use ARM cores for whatever purpose.  Suppose that Nvidia makes their own chips that directly compete against yours.  Do you think that Nvidia is going to do the best that they can to help your product be as good as possible and arrive to market quickly?  ARM would, which is why you're using ARM cores.  If you're willing to bet your company that Nvidia will do likewise, that's not likely to end well for you.

The FTC complaint lists three examples of markets where Nvidia already has their own products using ARM cores.  If Nvidia buys ARM, they'll surely expand on that list.  So even if you're using ARM cores in a market where Nvidia has no competing product just yet, they might well do so soon if the ARM acquisition closes.

Another problem highlighted by the FTC complaint is that vendors that use ARM cores often have to share sensitive information with ARM.  If you're a major ARM customer and you want future ARM cores to be designed to your liking, you have to tell ARM what you're planning to do and what you need for it.  ARM will make sure that your secrets stay secret and won't share them with your competitors.  If Nvidia is your competitor, they can't make the same promise.  Being forced to share your future plans years in advance with your rival is not likely to end well.

These problems aren't the sort of thing that can be solved by Nvidia making promises up front, nor by litigation later.  If the acquisition goes through and then Nvidia drags their feet on doing what you need, even if you can sue them and win in court, if waiting for litigation delays your product coming to market by a year, you still lose.  If Nvidia nominally agrees to do what you want, but intentionally does it badly to cripple you as their competition, what's your recourse?

So why isn't there an industry stampede away from ARM?  Because what's the alternative?  x86 doesn't have a comparable ecosystem, as neither AMD's semi-custom unit nor Intel's more recent plans to do something analogous and fabricate the chips themselves are anywhere near as developed as what ARM offers.  For low power chips, ARM has an extensive portfolio of CPU cores that will burn well under a watt, while x86 has absolutely nothing at all.  Beyond that, the options only get bleaker, as MIPS is just about dead, Power is largely relegated to big iron, and RISC-V is still very immature.

In the long run, if the Nvidia acquisition of ARM goes through, there will be considerable industry movement away to some other architecture(s).  But even if in ten years, RISC-V has about the ecosystem that ARM does today, that won't do you any good if your company doesn't still exist because in the meantime, Nvidia was able to prevent you from launching any competitive products for several years until your company folded.

If there is to be any government review of acquisitions at all, this is exactly the sort of deal that it's supposed to block.  Fortunately, the United States Federal Trade Commission (FTC) seems to see it that way, too.  The commission voted unanimously to sue to stop Nvidia from buying ARM.  It's also worth noting that this isn't a partisan issue:  the commission currently has two Republicans and two Democrats, with three members appointed by Trump (including one of the Democrats) and one by Biden.

Even if the acquisition gets nixed, however, ARM could be seriously wounded.  Do you really want to stick with ARM forever even after SoftBank tried to sell the company to Nvidia?  How confident are you that they won't try again to sell it to some other company that will cause trouble for you?  RISC-V's open nature makes it immune to that sort of problem.  The nature of x86 cores being designed by both Intel and AMD (and VIA) makes it so that if one of them won't play ball with you, that doesn't shut you down, but only pushes you to buy from their competitor instead.  It will be interesting to see how this shakes out.
[Deleted User]MendelConstantineMerus
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Comments

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 25,499
    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-01-25/nvidia-is-said-to-quietly-prepare-to-abandon-takeover-of-arm

    Bloomberg is claiming that Nvidia is abandoning their effort at buying ARM, in recognition that it's not likely to be approved by regulators.  The deal was opposed by basically the entire tech industry except for Nvidia and ARM.

    Even without buying ARM, Nvidia could get an ARM architecture license and make their own ARM cores if so inclined.  What they won't be able to do without buying ARM is to artificially sabotage competitors that rely on ARM cores.  And the latter was most of the point of the acquisition.

    The big remaining question is what happens to ARM.  If their customers still expect ARM to be sold to someone who will try to crush them, then that could motivate them to try to move away from ARM if they can.  The article says that ARM is planning on an IPO, that is, becoming a publicly traded company.
    ConstantineMerus
  • The_KorriganThe_Korrigan Member RarePosts: 3,460
    nVidia already did their own ARM cores.
    The processor in the Shield devices.
    UngoodeoloeConstantineMerus
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  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 25,499
    nVidia already did their own ARM cores.
    The processor in the Shield devices.
    They did make their own "Denver" ARM cores, then abandoned that after a single generation.  They could do it again if they want to, and they don't need to own ARM to do that.
    ConstantineMerus
  • olepiolepi Member EpicPosts: 3,053
    edited February 2022
    I remember when the idea of RISC machines (Reduced Instruction Set Computer) first came out. Run a lot of really simple instructions really fast, instead of more complex (called CISC) instructions at a slower pace.

    Advanced Risc Machines (ARM) capitalized on the simple architecture and the ability to use CAD software to target the processor to any need. They don't give you a chip, they give you a file to create a chip. So everybody could make them for all kinds of purposes.

    I can see the problem with letting one company monopolize that.

    ------------
    2024: 47 years on the Net.


  • ChildoftheShadowsChildoftheShadows Member EpicPosts: 2,193
    Quizzical said:
    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-01-25/nvidia-is-said-to-quietly-prepare-to-abandon-takeover-of-arm

    Bloomberg is claiming that Nvidia is abandoning their effort at buying ARM, in recognition that it's not likely to be approved by regulators.  The deal was opposed by basically the entire tech industry except for Nvidia and ARM.

    Even without buying ARM, Nvidia could get an ARM architecture license and make their own ARM cores if so inclined.  What they won't be able to do without buying ARM is to artificially sabotage competitors that rely on ARM cores.  And the latter was most of the point of the acquisition.

    The big remaining question is what happens to ARM.  If their customers still expect ARM to be sold to someone who will try to crush them, then that could motivate them to try to move away from ARM if they can.  The article says that ARM is planning on an IPO, that is, becoming a publicly traded company.

    It all comes back to centralized government being a problem. Nvidia can't buy arm because government says so, but they only want to buy arm because of the control they would have... because government would say so.
    With every regulation comes more regulation and ultimately the largest corporations will benefit the most.
  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 25,499
    Quizzical said:
    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-01-25/nvidia-is-said-to-quietly-prepare-to-abandon-takeover-of-arm

    Bloomberg is claiming that Nvidia is abandoning their effort at buying ARM, in recognition that it's not likely to be approved by regulators.  The deal was opposed by basically the entire tech industry except for Nvidia and ARM.

    Even without buying ARM, Nvidia could get an ARM architecture license and make their own ARM cores if so inclined.  What they won't be able to do without buying ARM is to artificially sabotage competitors that rely on ARM cores.  And the latter was most of the point of the acquisition.

    The big remaining question is what happens to ARM.  If their customers still expect ARM to be sold to someone who will try to crush them, then that could motivate them to try to move away from ARM if they can.  The article says that ARM is planning on an IPO, that is, becoming a publicly traded company.

    It all comes back to centralized government being a problem. Nvidia can't buy arm because government says so, but they only want to buy arm because of the control they would have... because government would say so.
    With every regulation comes more regulation and ultimately the largest corporations will benefit the most.
    I'm not sure what you think the problem is here.  Are you saying that the government shouldn't have any role in preventing anti-competitive mergers?  If you think CPUs are expensive now, just wait until you see what they would cost after an Intel-AMD-ARM merger.

    Nvidia wanting control of ARM isn't because that would allow them to make the government to do things for them, unless you're calling for an end to government protections of intellectual property.  It's because they could selectively cripple competitors when they want to take over one market or another.

    The role of governments in protecting intellectual property isn't some novel fad.  It's in the US Constitution as written in 1787:

    "The Congress shall have Power... To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries"  (Article I, Section 8)
    Mendel
  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 25,499
    Torval said:
    Intel already has an ARM license. Are their ARM CPUs a lot more expensive... compared to their other CPUs or other ARM chips? It wouldn't be good, in my opinion, for Intel or AMD to control ARM licensing, but I'm also more in favor of open architectures than closed. I realize RISC-V isn't a panacea and still has some issues to iron out, but I like that approach more than I do ARM or proprietary CISC (x86/64) architectures.
    There's an enormous difference between licensing another company's product versus owning and controlling that other company.  If Intel controlled ARM, they could have ARM cripple their future products so that companies relying on ARM would have vastly inferior products and be nearly forced to use x86 instead in the markets that Intel cares about.  Merely licensing ARM cores or even having an architectural license to design your own custom ARM core doesn't let you do that.

    So long as ARM's business is one of licensing out their architecture and cores and that's the main way that they make money, their incentives are to make the best possible architecture and cores that they can.  That's exactly what you want if you're trying to license ARM cores to use them for something.

    But suppose instead that you license ARM cores for use in some particular market.  And then suppose that ARM gets bought by one of your competitors in your main market, and selling ARM core licenses is only a minor part of that company's revenue.  What stops them from crippling the ARM cores that they'll sell you as a way to weaken their competition and make their own product relatively stronger as a result?  That's not just a risk of Nvidia owning ARM, but also a risk if ARM were owned by Intel, AMD, Apple, Qualcomm, Samsung, or a number of other companies.

    You can license AMD's CPU cores for various purposes in their semi-custom unit, and Intel is pushing toward offering their own CPU cores available for license, too.  But they won't necessarily license their cores to you on favorable terms to do whatever you want, as they don't want you to create a competing product in their own major markets.  Thus, AMD has licensed out their CPU cores for a number of game consoles, but not for socketed desktop or laptop parts that would directly compete with their Ryzen line.  ARM doesn't have any such markets of their own outside of the licensing business, so they will license their cores for you to do whatever you want with them.
  • MendelMendel Member LegendaryPosts: 5,609
    Quizzical said:
    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-01-25/nvidia-is-said-to-quietly-prepare-to-abandon-takeover-of-arm

    Bloomberg is claiming that Nvidia is abandoning their effort at buying ARM, in recognition that it's not likely to be approved by regulators.  The deal was opposed by basically the entire tech industry except for Nvidia and ARM.

    Even without buying ARM, Nvidia could get an ARM architecture license and make their own ARM cores if so inclined.  What they won't be able to do without buying ARM is to artificially sabotage competitors that rely on ARM cores.  And the latter was most of the point of the acquisition.

    The big remaining question is what happens to ARM.  If their customers still expect ARM to be sold to someone who will try to crush them, then that could motivate them to try to move away from ARM if they can.  The article says that ARM is planning on an IPO, that is, becoming a publicly traded company.

    It all comes back to centralized government being a problem. Nvidia can't buy arm because government says so, but they only want to buy arm because of the control they would have... because government would say so.
    With every regulation comes more regulation and ultimately the largest corporations will benefit the most.

    I think this is one area where a centralized government is the simplest and best way to go.  Imagine if a company with the business practices/ethics of nVidia controlled most of the chips that went into cars.  Putting nVidia in a position of being a primary source for the automobile industry is a sure way to ensure that future generations will be able to afford cars.  Maybe the only thing worse would be to wire NFTs into cars.  (Obligatory crypto venting).

    I love nVidia graphics cards, used their product for years, but I don't want to put up with the shenanigans (and inflated prices) that nVidia has traditionally approved.  Let's keep them as terrors of small-ticket consumer goods rather than letting them loose on higher cost items.



    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • ChildoftheShadowsChildoftheShadows Member EpicPosts: 2,193
    Quizzical said:
    Mendel said:
    Centralized government is what allows a company to become a monopoly to begin with.
    BrotherMaynard
  • VrikaVrika Member LegendaryPosts: 7,989
    Quizzical said:
    Mendel said:
    Centralized government is what allows a company to become a monopoly to begin with.
    No. Controlling the market is more profitable than competing. Without government control we'd see a lot more monopolies and a lot less competition.
    MendelRidelynn
     
  • ChildoftheShadowsChildoftheShadows Member EpicPosts: 2,193
    Vrika said:
    Quizzical said:
    Mendel said:
    Centralized government is what allows a company to become a monopoly to begin with.
    No. Controlling the market is more profitable than competing. Without government control we'd see a lot more monopolies and a lot less competition.
    Without government forcing you to abide competition would run rampant.
  • VrikaVrika Member LegendaryPosts: 7,989
    Vrika said:
    Quizzical said:
    Mendel said:
    Centralized government is what allows a company to become a monopoly to begin with.
    No. Controlling the market is more profitable than competing. Without government control we'd see a lot more monopolies and a lot less competition.
    Without government forcing you to abide competition would run rampant.
    Without government forcing you to abide large companies would form a cartel.

    Anyone trying to compete would
     -Be boycotted to hell as the cartel members would demand that their suppliers and retailers refuse business with any competitor
     -Face predatory pricing if the rich cartel can drive them out of market that way
     -Be bought and shut down to eliminate competition

    MendelQuizzical
     
  • ChildoftheShadowsChildoftheShadows Member EpicPosts: 2,193
    Vrika said:
    Vrika said:
    Quizzical said:
    Mendel said:
    Centralized government is what allows a company to become a monopoly to begin with.
    No. Controlling the market is more profitable than competing. Without government control we'd see a lot more monopolies and a lot less competition.
    Without government forcing you to abide competition would run rampant.
    Without government forcing you to abide large companies would form a cartel.

    Anyone trying to compete would
     -Be boycotted to hell as the cartel members would demand that their suppliers and retailers refuse business with any competitor
     -Face predatory pricing if the rich cartel can drive them out of market that way
     -Be bought and shut down to eliminate competition

    I'm not sure what world you live in where these cartels don't exist and protected by the laws government enforce. But ok.
  • The user and all related content has been deleted.
    Sometimes we need fantasy to survive reality 
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    Beyond the shadows there's always light
  • MendelMendel Member LegendaryPosts: 5,609
    Vrika said:
    Vrika said:
    Quizzical said:
    Mendel said:
    Centralized government is what allows a company to become a monopoly to begin with.
    No. Controlling the market is more profitable than competing. Without government control we'd see a lot more monopolies and a lot less competition.
    Without government forcing you to abide competition would run rampant.
    Without government forcing you to abide large companies would form a cartel.

    Anyone trying to compete would
     -Be boycotted to hell as the cartel members would demand that their suppliers and retailers refuse business with any competitor
     -Face predatory pricing if the rich cartel can drive them out of market that way
     -Be bought and shut down to eliminate competition

    The US did this in the mid-late 1800s.  A few big fish eating small fish.  Let's not do that again.



    Quizzical

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • The user and all related content has been deleted.
    Sometimes we need fantasy to survive reality 
    https://biturl.top/rU7bY3
    Beyond the shadows there's always light
  • MendelMendel Member LegendaryPosts: 5,609
    Deathkon1 said:
    Mendel said:
    Vrika said:
    Vrika said:
    Quizzical said:
    Mendel said:
    Centralized government is what allows a company to become a monopoly to begin with.
    No. Controlling the market is more profitable than competing. Without government control we'd see a lot more monopolies and a lot less competition.
    Without government forcing you to abide competition would run rampant.
    Without government forcing you to abide large companies would form a cartel.

    Anyone trying to compete would
     -Be boycotted to hell as the cartel members would demand that their suppliers and retailers refuse business with any competitor
     -Face predatory pricing if the rich cartel can drive them out of market that way
     -Be bought and shut down to eliminate competition

    The US did this in the mid-late 1800s.  A few big fish eating small fish.  Let's not do that again.



    idk man with how people are getting programmed and the twitter crusades happening daily maybe we should repeat history and let nature take its course so the younger generation get educated on how the world really works

    The hard way is the best way to learn its fast and painful but it just works

    Only problem, there are more than just the younger generations around.  We're already seeing hints of the tech corporations trying to do this whole monopoly thing.  When I'm no longer around, the younger generations can run the country into the ground.

    Not asking anyone to listen to 'their elders'; just to wait a bit until I'm clear before the repeating history really starts.



    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 25,499
    Vrika said:
    Quizzical said:
    Mendel said:
    Centralized government is what allows a company to become a monopoly to begin with.
    No. Controlling the market is more profitable than competing. Without government control we'd see a lot more monopolies and a lot less competition.
    Without government forcing you to abide competition would run rampant.
    It all depends on just how "without government" we're talking here.  Without a government to provide basic law and order, capital-intensive industries such as computer chips would be impossible.
  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 25,499
    Mendel said:
    Deathkon1 said:
    Mendel said:
    Vrika said:
    Vrika said:
    Centralized government is what allows a company to become a monopoly to begin with.
    No. Controlling the market is more profitable than competing. Without government control we'd see a lot more monopolies and a lot less competition.
    Without government forcing you to abide competition would run rampant.
    Without government forcing you to abide large companies would form a cartel.

    Anyone trying to compete would
     -Be boycotted to hell as the cartel members would demand that their suppliers and retailers refuse business with any competitor
     -Face predatory pricing if the rich cartel can drive them out of market that way
     -Be bought and shut down to eliminate competition

    The US did this in the mid-late 1800s.  A few big fish eating small fish.  Let's not do that again.



    idk man with how people are getting programmed and the twitter crusades happening daily maybe we should repeat history and let nature take its course so the younger generation get educated on how the world really works

    The hard way is the best way to learn its fast and painful but it just works

    Only problem, there are more than just the younger generations around.  We're already seeing hints of the tech corporations trying to do this whole monopoly thing.  When I'm no longer around, the younger generations can run the country into the ground.

    Not asking anyone to listen to 'their elders'; just to wait a bit until I'm clear before the repeating history really starts.
    One great thing about democracy is that:

    1)  The crazy experiments that society runs will be the ones that a lot of people actually want to see, not just some idiot dictator,
    2)  The crazy experiment will be selectively run in places where the people want to see it, and mostly not in places where everyone thinks it's crazy, and
    3)  The system is self-correcting so that society will change course if a crazy experiment has catastrophic results.  In most cases, you don't even have to wait for the next election, as politicians will release that they'd better change course before then to avoid getting crushed in a landslide.

    For a recent example that wasn't on anyone's radar a decade ago, see "defund the police".
  • ChildoftheShadowsChildoftheShadows Member EpicPosts: 2,193
    Quizzical said:
    Mendel said:
    Deathkon1 said:
    Mendel said:
    Vrika said:
    Vrika said:
    Centralized government is what allows a company to become a monopoly to begin with.
    No. Controlling the market is more profitable than competing. Without government control we'd see a lot more monopolies and a lot less competition.
    Without government forcing you to abide competition would run rampant.
    Without government forcing you to abide large companies would form a cartel.

    Anyone trying to compete would
     -Be boycotted to hell as the cartel members would demand that their suppliers and retailers refuse business with any competitor
     -Face predatory pricing if the rich cartel can drive them out of market that way
     -Be bought and shut down to eliminate competition

    The US did this in the mid-late 1800s.  A few big fish eating small fish.  Let's not do that again.



    idk man with how people are getting programmed and the twitter crusades happening daily maybe we should repeat history and let nature take its course so the younger generation get educated on how the world really works

    The hard way is the best way to learn its fast and painful but it just works

    Only problem, there are more than just the younger generations around.  We're already seeing hints of the tech corporations trying to do this whole monopoly thing.  When I'm no longer around, the younger generations can run the country into the ground.

    Not asking anyone to listen to 'their elders'; just to wait a bit until I'm clear before the repeating history really starts.
    One great thing about democracy is that:

    1)  The crazy experiments that society runs will be the ones that a lot of people actually want to see, not just some idiot dictator,
    2)  The crazy experiment will be selectively run in places where the people want to see it, and mostly not in places where everyone thinks it's crazy, and
    3)  The system is self-correcting so that society will change course if a crazy experiment has catastrophic results.  In most cases, you don't even have to wait for the next election, as politicians will release that they'd better change course before then to avoid getting crushed in a landslide.

    For a recent example that wasn't on anyone's radar a decade ago, see "defund the police".
    Defund the police wasn't an experiment. It was a way to generate chaos so people would again be convinced that police are required.

    You can't slow policing to the point crime increases and still not allow law abiding citizens the ability to defend themselves. That's designed chaos.
  • ConstantineMerusConstantineMerus Member EpicPosts: 3,338
    Torval said:
    Think of all the trickle-down this unregulated capitalism will bring. Blue-pill Libertarians are easy to spot a mile away. Wake up and believe whatever you want and ignore how lax regulation brought us to late stage necrotic capitalism.

    Competition is there and what we've found are those with the most power and money buy it all up and consolidate it.
    The thing is true free-market does not oppose monopolies. 
    [Deleted User]
    Constantine, The Console Poster

    • "One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others may despise it, is the invention of good games and it cannot be done by men out of touch with their instinctive selves." - Carl Jung
  • TwistedSister77TwistedSister77 Member EpicPosts: 1,144
    edited February 2022
    I won't quote people here... they have a certain belief on the topic of "capitalism".

    A once great public education system once taught the difference between laissez-faire capitalism vs a capitalism with some government consequences (e.g. a thousand years ago, scamming on weight scales... more recently... read about the barrons of the industrial revolution in the US).  

    However, on topic... Nvidia (which I buy GPUs from)... this is worth another look for this transaction.

    FYI- Intel could have smashed AMD into dust 15 years ago (or bought them for pennies on the dollar )... instead it's an oligarchy (because if Intel did that it was a monopoly, they would be under anti-trust regulations).


    FYI - Microsoft acquisition Activism/Blizzard is not a monopoly reasonably, as I posted elsewhere... case by case basis.
    ConstantineMerus
  • ConstantineMerusConstantineMerus Member EpicPosts: 3,338
    When it comes to economics I'm pretty retarded. I know this is a bit off topic but I would love to learn how a business can be really not anti competitive. I'm guessing, which again could be retarded, that there are just laws for certain practices, not being anti competitive in general. 
    TwistedSister77
    Constantine, The Console Poster

    • "One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others may despise it, is the invention of good games and it cannot be done by men out of touch with their instinctive selves." - Carl Jung
  • TwistedSister77TwistedSister77 Member EpicPosts: 1,144
    edited February 2022
    When it comes to economics I'm pretty retarded. I know this is a bit off topic but I would love to learn how a business can be really not anti competitive. I'm guessing, which again could be retarded, that there are just laws for certain practices, not being anti competitive in general. 
    You used the R word multiple times... canceled!  #2022 

    In all seriousness (and yes I have a Down Syndrome adult family member who is awesome... and wouldn't give a crap about the R word.. because people use it interchangeablely for many things)... 

    I don't sniff my own educational and 20+ work experience farts towards others as awesomeness.  

    So, just read/watch history (not Wikipedia... one of the own site founders has said many times it's edited by bad faith actors).

    Everything you read and learn, challenge if something nags at you as "off".  

    I love history and cultures... and put in context for their respective day and age (not retroactive standards of 2022)...  yes, even in those cultural ethos... there is so much tragedy, but some greatness too..  
    ConstantineMerus
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