Crowfall Founder Gives Insight into Sale in Latest Blog Post | MMORPG.com

Scot

nurso said:

lashlash said:

I also think there were countless design decisions (often constrained by budget) that make the game inaccessible to a large audience.

Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/MMORPG/comments/riwax5/crowfall_blog_a_new_chapter_j_todd_coleman/hp1mrrz/

To be honest, I don't think the multiple hour long single-player PvE tutorial or the weird BR mode was created because of a tight budget.

They thought they could rake the cash in with the BR mode and instead squandered the budget on it, something tells me that those who came up with that idea and those that endorsed it are still there. 

nurso

Scot said:

They thought they could rake the cash in with the BR mode and instead squandered the budget on it, something tells me that those who came up with that idea and those that endorsed it are still there. 

I think it was more of a panic reaction. Somehow they wanted to increase the interest in CF and they knew that the pseudo-BR test mode could excite the testers right at the beginning of the alpha phase. That's where the "quick fix" came from, IMO.

Slapshot1188

nurso said:

Scot said:

They thought they could rake the cash in with the BR mode and instead squandered the budget on it, something tells me that those who came up with that idea and those that endorsed it are still there. 

I think it was more of a panic reaction. Somehow they wanted to increase the interest in CF and they knew that the pseudo-BR test mode could excite the testers right at the beginning of the alpha phase. That's where the "quick fix" came from, IMO.

I believe they knew the main game was going to fail.  Despite some folks around here shouting the game was ready and should launch,  the rational folks saw that interest was not there.  The BR was just a shot in the dark to pull off a Fortnite kind of change of direction.
 

nurso

Slapshot1188 said:

Despite some folks around here shouting the game was ready and should launch,  the rational folks saw that interest was not there. 

If the basic ideas of Crowfall had been implemented differently, there would have been a sufficient player base. Because a Shadowbane-like PvP MMORPG based on seasons is not that uninteresting. At least that is my opinion.

Ungood

Slapshot1188 said:

nurso said:

Scot said:

They thought they could rake the cash in with the BR mode and instead squandered the budget on it, something tells me that those who came up with that idea and those that endorsed it are still there. 

I think it was more of a panic reaction. Somehow they wanted to increase the interest in CF and they knew that the pseudo-BR test mode could excite the testers right at the beginning of the alpha phase. That's where the "quick fix" came from, IMO.

I believe they knew the main game was going to fail.  Despite some folks around here shouting the game was ready and should launch,  the rational folks saw that interest was not there.  The BR was just a shot in the dark to pull off a Fortnite kind of change of direction.
 

Perhaps they did know it was going to fail, which might explain why they left in some really bad features, and didn't listen to all the people that were trying to tell them that if they want a good PvP game, they can't build it like some MMO of yesteryear, and it needs to be more balanced for PvP.

Instead they listened to the DAOC players that cried that "Imbalance is Balance" and some such nonsense about how things would even out in larger battels, and then those same players wanted small scale skirmishes.

I suspect the BR was to test out their ability PvP Balance, and they sucked at it.. so.. maybe they knew it was DOA, and just rolled with whatever.

Personally I was somewhat amazed how much it decreased in QOL from Beta to Launch, like they managed to turn what was a fun (if not fully finished) game, into an Unfun Slog. 

nurso

Ungood said:

Perhaps they did know it was going to fail, which might explain why they left in some really bad features, and didn't listen to all the people that were trying to tell them that if they want a good PvP game, they can't build it like some MMO of yesteryear, and it needs to be more balanced for PvP.

Instead they listened to the DAOC players that cried that "Imbalance is Balance" and some such nonsense about how things would even out in larger battels, and then those same players wanted small scale skirmishes.

Reading through Todd Coleman's blog post, I don't get the feeling that they knew CF "was going to fail". Rather that "hope dies last". Coleman won't have invested so many years in the idea only to give up in the home stretch.

And don't look down on DAoC players, because "Imbalance is Balance". But only in an RvR game where it's not the individual classes that are balanced, but the realms themselves. In a PvP game like CF, this makes no sense. But the developers should have known that and ignored interjections.

Ungood

nurso said:

Ungood said:

Perhaps they did know it was going to fail, which might explain why they left in some really bad features, and didn't listen to all the people that were trying to tell them that if they want a good PvP game, they can't build it like some MMO of yesteryear, and it needs to be more balanced for PvP.

Instead they listened to the DAOC players that cried that "Imbalance is Balance" and some such nonsense about how things would even out in larger battels, and then those same players wanted small scale skirmishes.

Reading through Todd Coleman's blog post, I don't get the feeling that they knew CF "was going to". Rather that "hope dies last". Coleman won't have invested so many years in the idea only to give up in the home stretch.

And don't look down on DAoC players, because "Imbalance is Balance". But only in an RvR game where it's not the individual classes that are balanced, but the realms themselves. In a PvP game like CF, this makes no sense. But the developers should have known that and ignored interjections.

I do. I blame both the Devs and the Whiners.

I tried to warn them years ago that when it comes to a PvP game like Crowfall, which, regardless of all the other crap, was all about PvP, the PvP was the driving force behind the game.

But the reality is, times have changed for PvP games, a whole slew of games have come out, and changed the way people see PvP games these days, and that they needed to balance out the classes, to allow for the fights to go from small, a few people skirmishes, to large battles.

If you balance for 1 vs 1, it will be balanced for 1000 vs 1000, I tried to explain that. But if balance for 50 vs 50, you can't go smaller, this sets you up in a bad spot if you don't have the population to make those fights happen, or you have a player population what suddenly wants small fights.

The DAOC players shouted me down, crying that "Imbalance is Balance", and the reality is, no it is not, and it never was, it may have worked, or at least given the illusion of working, way back when, 20 years ago, when it was this new unique thing. So people look upon it with rose colored glasses while blind as a bat to how badly it really was implemented in contrast to modern RvR games.

But, after the DAOC players cried incessantly that it would sort out due to large scale open world battels, or some such, they then showed up to fight with their tiny guilds, and wanted small skirmishes. Like really, WTF, you can't have imbalanced classes and small scale fights. 

So, Maybe after they trial tested the BR, they knew it was going to end badly, maybe they didn't.

Maybe it's didn't really matter to them, I mean, they made it clear that they were planning to make their bank by marketing out their custom engine, so, perhaps maybe they knew that Crowfall was just a live demo from the start and never planned for it to be their money maker, and that their real money was going to sit on marketing their Engine.. If that is the case, Hope that worked for them.

At least it showed that Imbalance is in fact not balance, no matter what some people might chant.

Might be why CU is revamping their combat and classes.. LOL.

Mendel

nurso said:

Slapshot1188 said:

Despite some folks around here shouting the game was ready and should launch,  the rational folks saw that interest was not there. 

If the basic ideas of Crowfall had been implemented differently, there would have been a sufficient player base. Because a Shadowbane-like PvP MMORPG based on seasons is not that uninteresting. At least that is my opinion.

That *might* have appeased the PvP player, but I think their biggest mistake was to completely dismiss the PvE side and treat it as an afterthought.  Too many companies seem to do that.  The PvE player seems to be the larger and more consistent of the market, and too often, it's ignored.

Brainy

nurso said:

Slapshot1188 said:

Despite some folks around here shouting the game was ready and should launch,  the rational folks saw that interest was not there. 

If the basic ideas of Crowfall had been implemented differently, there would have been a sufficient player base. Because a Shadowbane-like PvP MMORPG based on seasons is not that uninteresting. At least that is my opinion.

catering to hard core PVP will get you numbers like this

https://steamplayercount.com/app/1170950

How many more examples of this will it take before these game devs learn?

Ungood

tzervo said:

Ungood said:

If you balance for 1 vs 1, it will be balanced for 1000 vs 1000, I tried to explain that. But if balance for 50 vs 50, you can't go smaller, this sets you up in a bad spot if you don't have the population to make those fights happen, or you have a player population what suddenly wants small fights.

No game with group PvP balances for 1v1 completely. You will always have the AoE guys/healers that have greater impact in groups, and the assassins that do better in 1v1/roaming etc, with some sort of counters. LoL does it, GW2 does it, Albion does it, every game with group PvP does it.

There is a lot of options and scales between balancing for 1v1 and balancing for 50v50. Most games go for groups of 5. Was Crowfall's 5v5 balanced? Was every class equally valuable in 5v5? Examples of imbalance?

Never played LoL or Albion, but, GW2 class and build balance was and still is a joke, and also why they never progressed into e-sports, despite how much they wanted to make that happen.

As for Crowfall, the balance was deplorable, I watched a Fae Assassin 1 vs 5 and win.

It was not 2 vs 5, because I stayed out of the fight with a My 1/2 Giant Champion, as I was playing a meta harvester build, the Fae was my bodyguard so I could harvest for the guild, and they obviously didn't need my help, and were very good at their job.

Added: With that said, the best PvP balance I ever witnessed, first hand, was in WH40KEC, LSM vs CSM. Balanced pretty well with the Rock-Scissors-Paper type of deal.. but.. legit, the Paper didn't always beat the Rock, there was always a chance you could win any encounter with smart gameplay.

Too bad that game was a train wreck in development, and over promised, thus alienating their player base. What they had was really good for what they had, and if they marketed it as that, it could have been great.

Slapshot1188

The revisionist history by some in this thread is fucking hilarious.  We know who was shouting “launch the game” and who was saying it wasn’t ready and would fail.  

Slapshot1188

Ungood said:

Slapshot1188 said:

nurso said:

Scot said:

They thought they could rake the cash in with the BR mode and instead squandered the budget on it, something tells me that those who came up with that idea and those that endorsed it are still there. 

I think it was more of a panic reaction. Somehow they wanted to increase the interest in CF and they knew that the pseudo-BR test mode could excite the testers right at the beginning of the alpha phase. That's where the "quick fix" came from, IMO.

I believe they knew the main game was going to fail.  Despite some folks around here shouting the game was ready and should launch,  the rational folks saw that interest was not there.  The BR was just a shot in the dark to pull off a Fortnite kind of change of direction.
 

Perhaps they did know it was going to fail, which might explain why they left in some really bad features, and didn't listen to all the people that were trying to tell them that if they want a good PvP game, they can't build it like some MMO of yesteryear, and it needs to be more balanced for PvP.

Instead they listened to the DAOC players that cried that "Imbalance is Balance" and some such nonsense about how things would even out in larger battels, and then those same players wanted small scale skirmishes.

I suspect the BR was to test out their ability PvP Balance, and they sucked at it.. so.. maybe they knew it was DOA, and just rolled with whatever.

Personally I was somewhat amazed how much it decreased in QOL from Beta to Launch, like they managed to turn what was a fun (if not fully finished) game, into an Unfun Slog. 

Sorry but this is simply an… uninformed… post.  To be polite.  DAOC had three realms with unique races and classes.   Crowfall did not restrict players in their choices at all.  Anyone, in any alliance, or guild, or solo could choose any class. 

That aside, if you think CF failed because there were a few OP builds then you didn’t play the game.  Oh right, you never did play past the tutorial at launch did you… some story about ordering a new video card that never appeared. 

CF failed because it wasn’t ready.  The parts never fit together. The zone sizes were dwarfed by the sizes of guilds and alliances.  The engine struggled in large battles.   Those are the main reasons. 

If individual class/build balance is on the list,  it’s pretty far down. 

Brainy

tzervo said:

Brainy said:

catering to hard core PVP will get you numbers like this

https://steamplayercount.com/app/1170950

How many more examples of this will it take before these game devs learn?

Or this:

LOL Albion Online, all I have to say is its completely FREE.  When the game had any required cost at all it had 450 players, which is just like all the rest.  You really cant compare active accounts  of completely FREE MMO's to ones that have a significant cost to them.  That can be 120k bot accounts for all we know.  Nobody even has to make a purchase 1 person can have infinite accounts for free.

Maybe Crowfall should have paid everyone $10 a month to play it, then maybe they would actually beat Albion numbers.  This is the future of these hardcore PVP games, they have to pay people to play just to compete with active user numbers of any other MMO.

YashaX

Ungood said:

Slapshot1188 said:

nurso said:

Scot said:

They thought they could rake the cash in with the BR mode and instead squandered the budget on it, something tells me that those who came up with that idea and those that endorsed it are still there. 

I think it was more of a panic reaction. Somehow they wanted to increase the interest in CF and they knew that the pseudo-BR test mode could excite the testers right at the beginning of the alpha phase. That's where the "quick fix" came from, IMO.

I believe they knew the main game was going to fail.  Despite some folks around here shouting the game was ready and should launch,  the rational folks saw that interest was not there.  The BR was just a shot in the dark to pull off a Fortnite kind of change of direction.
 

Perhaps they did know it was going to fail, which might explain why they left in some really bad features, and didn't listen to all the people that were trying to tell them that if they want a good PvP game, they can't build it like some MMO of yesteryear, and it needs to be more balanced for PvP.

Instead they listened to the DAOC players that cried that "Imbalance is Balance" and some such nonsense about how things would even out in larger battels, and then those same players wanted small scale skirmishes.

I suspect the BR was to test out their ability PvP Balance, and they sucked at it.. so.. maybe they knew it was DOA, and just rolled with whatever.

The balance between the classes was the least of the issues with CF, I am not sure why you always focus on that. It is as if you are missing the forest of fail for a single leaf on a tree.

Slapshot1188

YashaX said:

Ungood said:

Slapshot1188 said:

nurso said:

Scot said:

They thought they could rake the cash in with the BR mode and instead squandered the budget on it, something tells me that those who came up with that idea and those that endorsed it are still there. 

I think it was more of a panic reaction. Somehow they wanted to increase the interest in CF and they knew that the pseudo-BR test mode could excite the testers right at the beginning of the alpha phase. That's where the "quick fix" came from, IMO.

I believe they knew the main game was going to fail.  Despite some folks around here shouting the game was ready and should launch,  the rational folks saw that interest was not there.  The BR was just a shot in the dark to pull off a Fortnite kind of change of direction.
 

Perhaps they did know it was going to fail, which might explain why they left in some really bad features, and didn't listen to all the people that were trying to tell them that if they want a good PvP game, they can't build it like some MMO of yesteryear, and it needs to be more balanced for PvP.

Instead they listened to the DAOC players that cried that "Imbalance is Balance" and some such nonsense about how things would even out in larger battels, and then those same players wanted small scale skirmishes.

I suspect the BR was to test out their ability PvP Balance, and they sucked at it.. so.. maybe they knew it was DOA, and just rolled with whatever.

The balance between the classes was the least of the issues with CF, I am not sure why you always focus on that. It is as if you are missing the forest of fail for a single leaf on a tree.

Lame attempt to throw shade at DAOC because it’s my all time favorite.  Just another in a series of swings and misses.  Almost like some dude didn’t even play the game…

Brainy

tzervo said:

Brainy said:

LOL Albion Online, all I have to say is its completely FREE.  When the game had any required cost at all it had 450 players, which is just like all the rest.  You really cant compare active accounts  of completely FREE MMO's to ones that have a significant cost to them.  That can be 120k bot accounts for all we know.  Nobody even has to make a purchase 1 person can have infinite accounts for free.

As I told you here that number is incorrect and yet you keep repeating it. So I assume you Intentionally lie to get your narrative. Plus 450 players means really nothing. What 450? Concurrent? Care to give a link? "For all we know" doesn't cut it.

The links in that thread show the lowest recorded number of weekly active PVP players ever were about 6500. That does not count those that just did not participate in PVP but did crafting/trading/PVE-expeditions (like me). Around the time that the unofficial chart was giving 8500 weekly active PVPers, official source was giving around 28000 weekly active in total. Also note that the game had a public API to source those numbers, so anyone could refute the unofficial numbers if they were untrue.

And that was the lowest point. The game went f2p on 10 April 2019. Just before that date, the weekly active PVPers were around 30000, which again excludes crafters, traders, and PVEers, and the trend was already upward. and five times better than the lowest point. That trend shows that the game was already recovering and becoming more popular, regardless of the f2p move.

Albion Online Playerbase Continues To Decline 19 Weeks After Release - MMOs.com
Albion Weekly PVP Population Records - Google Sheets

Albion had 450 concurrent prior to FTP which is in line with Crowfall and Mortal online.  Albion only starting getting more active due to people trying to get the jump on all the FTP players. I was playing during that time, I was around to hear all the jazzed up FTP hype.

The game was struggling just like Crowfall and Mortal online prior to FTP and No Subs.

According to steam they have exactly the same population now as when they went FTP.

https://steamcharts.com/app/761890

Sure not everyone plays steam but it does show the trend. Which is not good.

When a game is completely FREE they are going to see way more active users then if they have required subscriptions or B2P.  They are also going to have WAY more bots, and customers playing multiple accounts.

You keep pushing this game as some huge success story that is on par with the TOP MMO's just because of MAU numbers alone.  But as far as revenue goes its mediocre at best.  Their CEO left for less than 150k per year job.

I wont disagree this game may be showing a profit, but it looks like they make around $6.5 mil a year in revenue.  Not even close to the top MMO's.

Ungood

tzervo said:

Ungood said:

Never played LoL or Albion, but, GW2 class and build balance was and still is a joke, and also why they never progressed into e-sports, despite how much they wanted to make that happen.

As for Crowfall, the balance was deplorable, I watched a Fae Assassin 1 vs 5 and win.

It was not 2 vs 5, because I stayed out of the fight with a My 1/2 Giant Champion, as I was playing a meta harvester build, the Fae was my bodyguard so I could harvest for the guild, and they obviously didn't need my help, and were very good at their job.

Re GW2 balance being a joke: People vaguely cry about balance in every game. LoL is a good example because people complain about balance there too, but Riot publishes win percentage ratios. Sometimes players are right, sometimes they are wrong. So people complaining about balance means absolutely nothing without numbers to back it up.

The reason that GW2 never broke into e-sports was simply because its main audience was and is different: that of the average MMO player doing open world PVE content.

Re the 1v5 fight, this is a single anecdotal example where you could have had skill, level or gear imbalance, all of which are normal in any PvP MMO, including successful ones. Again, more holistic numbers and facts are needed.

The Devs themselves have come out and admitted that they always had a huge balance issues with GW2, they flat out admitted that a meta build could output 10x the DPS of a non-meta build, and that this disparity in balance within their game was so bad that it even impeded the devs themselves from being able to design and build challenging PvE content, so yah, the Balance issues in GW2 were even by MMO's standards ridiculous. 

In fact I witnessed this first hand, as I used to play an Core Shout Guard, that I had not updated till PoF, and while in a T4 fractal run, a guildmate linked me a new build layout, after telling me my DPS was shit (They no doubt were running a DPS meter), and without changing anything else with my build, not my gear, weapons, not even my attack rotations, nothing changed, just updating the trait lines with the new link, I was, according to my guildmate, outputting over 8x what my previous build was doing, and being viable to the group at that point.

Now I admit that build was really out of date this build was, I am talking, wearing Knights Armor with Solder Runes kind of out of date, and yet it still held it's own in Open World.

In that regard, I kind of feel bad for the Devs, but at the same time, they designed that system to be that stupidly out of wack, so it's also hard to feel bad for someone that did that to themselves. 

To their Credit however, The Dev's knew this was an issue and fully admitted it, they even tried to revise / fix it a bit, with the WvW update a while back, you might remember it, when everyone's DPS tanked for about 2 weeks, and people cried they were going to quit the game over the nerfs, that was till a new Meta arose, but that was little more a band aid fix, and in short time, didn't amount to much, and AFIK, they have no intent to change what they have at this point.

So yah.. GW2, class/build balance is a well known issue among anyone that PvP's in that game. The only thing that gives the PvP in that game any semblance of Balance is that all the PvP guilds expect all their players to run the best meta builds, so when serious PvP guilds collide, it has the illusion of a somewhat even fight.

And no one who is really serious about PvP or e-sports is going to play a crap system like that.

Ungood

YashaX said:

Ungood said:

Slapshot1188 said:

nurso said:

Scot said:

They thought they could rake the cash in with the BR mode and instead squandered the budget on it, something tells me that those who came up with that idea and those that endorsed it are still there. 

I think it was more of a panic reaction. Somehow they wanted to increase the interest in CF and they knew that the pseudo-BR test mode could excite the testers right at the beginning of the alpha phase. That's where the "quick fix" came from, IMO.

I believe they knew the main game was going to fail.  Despite some folks around here shouting the game was ready and should launch,  the rational folks saw that interest was not there.  The BR was just a shot in the dark to pull off a Fortnite kind of change of direction.
 

Perhaps they did know it was going to fail, which might explain why they left in some really bad features, and didn't listen to all the people that were trying to tell them that if they want a good PvP game, they can't build it like some MMO of yesteryear, and it needs to be more balanced for PvP.

Instead they listened to the DAOC players that cried that "Imbalance is Balance" and some such nonsense about how things would even out in larger battels, and then those same players wanted small scale skirmishes.

I suspect the BR was to test out their ability PvP Balance, and they sucked at it.. so.. maybe they knew it was DOA, and just rolled with whatever.

The balance between the classes was the least of the issues with CF, I am not sure why you always focus on that. It is as if you are missing the forest of fail for a single leaf on a tree.

It's a PvP Game. 

Really, I am going to say that again, and I want you to really read this, Crowfall is a PvP game.

Everything else in the game is just there to fuel and support the PvP of the game.

As such, If they don't get the PvP set up right.. nothing else they may do right matters.

That is why I focus on the balance. If they had built the game to have the PvP feel fun and engaging, players would have been killing each other for months before they even bothered to realize there might be more to the game.

I mean, I might be missing something with this, but if you plan to make a PvP game, I think it behooves you to make the PvP good at least right?

But.. what the fuck do I know.. right... care to tell me what you think killed the game..

Maybe you plan to blame some PvE stuff for killing what is a PvP game.

Ungood

Slapshot1188 said:

YashaX said:

Ungood said:

Slapshot1188 said:

nurso said:

Scot said:

They thought they could rake the cash in with the BR mode and instead squandered the budget on it, something tells me that those who came up with that idea and those that endorsed it are still there. 

I think it was more of a panic reaction. Somehow they wanted to increase the interest in CF and they knew that the pseudo-BR test mode could excite the testers right at the beginning of the alpha phase. That's where the "quick fix" came from, IMO.

I believe they knew the main game was going to fail.  Despite some folks around here shouting the game was ready and should launch,  the rational folks saw that interest was not there.  The BR was just a shot in the dark to pull off a Fortnite kind of change of direction.
 

Perhaps they did know it was going to fail, which might explain why they left in some really bad features, and didn't listen to all the people that were trying to tell them that if they want a good PvP game, they can't build it like some MMO of yesteryear, and it needs to be more balanced for PvP.

Instead they listened to the DAOC players that cried that "Imbalance is Balance" and some such nonsense about how things would even out in larger battels, and then those same players wanted small scale skirmishes.

I suspect the BR was to test out their ability PvP Balance, and they sucked at it.. so.. maybe they knew it was DOA, and just rolled with whatever.

The balance between the classes was the least of the issues with CF, I am not sure why you always focus on that. It is as if you are missing the forest of fail for a single leaf on a tree.

Lame attempt to throw shade at DAOC because it’s my all time favorite.  Just another in a series of swings and misses.  Almost like some dude didn’t even play the game…

Given you didn't know about the graphic update from Beta to Live, tells me you didn't play beta, funny how easy it is expose your lies.

But then, I mean, you lying, has been, what a 4 year ongoing trend between us now?

When I first met you 4 years ago, I told you that you should know what contracts you agree to, and you treated that like a cardinal sin, and have since been on a butthurt rummage with me since, to avenge your sore butt.

Then you tell me that you sign off on huge construction contracts.. Nahh, you gotta be full of shit on that one, or the dumbest mutherfukker that ever existed, if you had two brain cells to rub together when dealing with contracts, especially building ones, you would know that it's imperative to know what you signed and what the agreement it, on all levels, and who is reasonable for what, and would not have been a childish butthurt little snot all those years ago, when I told you that you really should know what you agreed to.

Funny how us bricklayers, seem to know more about that kind of stuff then some posing a big shot suit.

But, if you were one of the many dumbass on the Crowfall forums that cried "Imbalance is balance", then yes, you are 100% among the legion of other dumbasses that helped kill the game, and yes, I blame you directly for it's failing.

Just so we are clear on that.

Slapshot1188

Another example of wasted typing.  Guy never played the game past the tutorial but thinks he’s an expert on it.  Proven wrong over and over and over again.  Just makes stuff up that nobody believes.  Keep layin those bricks. Someone has to do it, for now.. but I did see an awesome robot bricklayer demoed at a trade show.  Not too far off.

But anyhow, for the rest of us…. I think this move cant hurt the game.  It’s unlikely theY can right the ship, but I’m willing to give them a chance.   As others have said, we have nothing to lose at this point.

Ungood

tzervo said:

Ungood said:

The Devs themselves have come out and admitted that they always had a huge balance issues with GW2, they flat out admitted that a meta build could output 10x the DPS of a non-meta build, and that this disparity in balance within their game was so bad that it even impeded the devs themselves from being able to design and build challenging PvE content, so yah, the Balance issues in GW2 were even by MMO's standards ridiculous. 

In fact I witnessed this first hand, as I used to play an Core Shout Guard, that I had not updated till PoF, and while in a T4 fractal run, a guildmate linked me a new build layout, after telling me my DPS was shit (They no doubt were running a DPS meter), and without changing anything else with my build, not my gear, weapons, not even my attack rotations, nothing changed, just updating the trait lines with the new link, I was, according to my guildmate, outputting over 8x what my previous build was doing, and being viable to the group at that point.

Now I admit that build was really out of date this build was, I am talking, wearing Knights Armor with Solder Runes kind of out of date, and yet it still held it's own in Open World.

Link about the 10x? Or the devs admitting to huge imbalances? I also remember the 10x being mentioned as a number that an unskilled player with a suboptimal build compared to the best player with the best build (I think in a WP vid, I will try to find it). But here you are talking about differences in the same profession (class). What does that have to do with balance? All that says is that the game has meta and useless builds like any other, and that the expacs introduced power creep, like in any other game. 

Did you really just ask; What does massive power disparity between builds have to do with balance?

.... 

Brainy

tzervo said:

1) Your link (steam) gives an incomplete picture. You even admit it, which means you admit to lying.

2) The fact that steam does not show an upward trend since f2p when their official report on the number of weekly players does, further correlates to the fact that Steam gives an incomplete and, more importantly, a more pessimistic picture than the truth, and that it does not even capture the trend. It is obvious why you would want to use it for your fake narrative.

ROFL.  Me linking steam and agreeing that not every player plays on steam is me lying?  This might come as a shock but I didn't create Steam chart.  I didn't manipulate steam chart, all I did was link it.  I would trust steam way more than some spreadsheet that is missing some years you linked.

Who knows the truth?  When these MMO's actually show the real numbers especially these hardcore PVP mmo's like Crowfall was doing, then people actually get to see how small the numbers really are.  So they only post the numbers when they think they will be good, and hide them when they are bad.

I don't know where steam chart is getting its numbers exactly but I am pretty sure they try to be standard across all the games on the platform regardless of if they are good or bad.  I will trust steam way more than some guy in a basement filling in unverified numbers into some spreadsheet who is doing who knows what with the numbers.

You don't know if 90% of Albion numbers are bot accounts or just simply BS to confuse people. Do you have any unbiased 3rd party accounts other than Steam which I linked?  How about some revenue numbers?  Lets see, New world has less than 90k concurrent players and is going to make 1 Billion dollars in a few months, you claim Albion has 120k+ users but is making $6.5 mil per year.  Do the math because this is a huge difference.

Ungood

tzervo said:

Ungood said:

tzervo said:

Ungood said:

The Devs themselves have come out and admitted that they always had a huge balance issues with GW2, they flat out admitted that a meta build could output 10x the DPS of a non-meta build, and that this disparity in balance within their game was so bad that it even impeded the devs themselves from being able to design and build challenging PvE content, so yah, the Balance issues in GW2 were even by MMO's standards ridiculous. 

In fact I witnessed this first hand, as I used to play an Core Shout Guard, that I had not updated till PoF, and while in a T4 fractal run, a guildmate linked me a new build layout, after telling me my DPS was shit (They no doubt were running a DPS meter), and without changing anything else with my build, not my gear, weapons, not even my attack rotations, nothing changed, just updating the trait lines with the new link, I was, according to my guildmate, outputting over 8x what my previous build was doing, and being viable to the group at that point.

Now I admit that build was really out of date this build was, I am talking, wearing Knights Armor with Solder Runes kind of out of date, and yet it still held it's own in Open World.

Link about the 10x? Or the devs admitting to huge imbalances? I also remember the 10x being mentioned as a number that an unskilled player with a suboptimal build compared to the best player with the best build (I think in a WP vid, I will try to find it). But here you are talking about differences in the same profession (class). What does that have to do with balance? All that says is that the game has meta and useless builds like any other, and that the expacs introduced power creep, like in any other game. 

Did you really just ask; What does massive power disparity between builds have to do with balance?

.... 

For the same class. Yes.

So, just for my own understanding, you are telling me, that, for example, having two Engineers, and one can optimize their traits to output 10K DPS, and another which is not optimized will only output 1K DPS, and you do not understand how this is a balance issue? 

lahnmir

I have said it before, but man, if all this forum PVP had actually taken place ingame, Crowfall would have been highly successful 

/Cheers,
Lahnmir

Ungood

lahnmir said:

I have said it before, but man, if all this forum PVP had actually taken place ingame, Crowfall would have been highly successful 

/Cheers,
Lahnmir

Yah.. too bad the people that think they are good at PvP, really aren't, and their glory years were 20 years past due, and all they have at this point are bravado, lies, and pitiful jabs, and no doubt spend way too much on hemorrhoid cream for their butthurt.

Personally, I think if Crowfall worked out to make more balanced and engaging PvP, and dropped a lot of the PvE crap, they could have made a pretty fun game.

In fact, in their Beta, which was a short and sweet intro, and then right to the fights, was in fact super fun, and no joke had me excited for it to go live.

Live, as others have also pointed out, was devoid of the fun factor, just like I said as well, and yet some people still think I didn't play the game, rather pitiful they cling to that illusion really.

But Truth was, they simply didn't build a good PvP game, because they tried to build a game for people that the last time they were any good at PvP was 20 years ago.