IP's Double Edged Swords?

AlBQuirky

What are people's thoughts on IP usage?

I often see requests to see one IP jump to a different medium, be it gooks to games or books/games into movies/shows.

I see the double edged sword because I see IP usage as an attempt to garner fans of the original, yet this brings with it the fans' "expectations." These expectations many times will see it hard please most fans.

What are some IPs you've seen done well in other mediums, or IPs that have had good crossovers, like Smash Brothers bringing in multiple heroes from other games?

Scot

Entertainment has increasingly since the 90's been brand/IP led. But there are issues, in addition to what you mentioned you can get authors claiming more money at a later stage like the author of The Witcher or the author stopping a book series out of respect for an actress dying which happened to the Wallander follow up.

But the rewards of using a book IP are huge, how do you get attention for your new TV series or film before launch? Well with a preexisting book you have it made. Indeed studios do so many remakes of old series and spin offs of book to Tv series which don't have books themselves. I believe that if using IP's had no problems we would only see Tv and films based on books.

olepi

Using a known IP in a game is a problem, even if there are strict rules trying to make sure the IP is followed. For example, in the Lord of the Rings IP, there was almost no magic. No wizards, except two, really. The Elves even said they were confused about what the hobbits called "magic".

So in LoTRO the game, there is no mention of magic. It's called "tactical" damage. But there are several full-on magic classes, with wizards galore throwing fire-balls, calling down lightning, etc. And they tried very hard to stay true to the IP.

Rungar

Ip's can bring in a lot of players but I don't find they make the games any better really. As already said there is usually some disappointment on the expectations.  

personally i dont think they are needed at all. Good games will draw players anyway so the ip only really works if the game isnt that great. 

olepi

Rungar said:

Ip's can bring in a lot of players but I don't find they make the games any better really. As already said there is usually some disappointment on the expectations.  

personally i dont think they are needed at all. Good games will draw players anyway so the ip only really works if the game isnt that great. 

I'll disagree somewhat. I've loved the Lord of the Rings for years, decades, and I really enjoy running around the same places in the game. I play MMORPG's mostly for the virtual world, and Middle Earth is one of my favorite worlds.

I will agree that the game can't really exactly track the IP though, so if you wanted that you would be disappointed.

Mendel

IPs are a very sticky business.  Ultimately, the IP is a fully fleshed story with settings, characters and plot.  And because it is a fully fleshed out story, it can suffer issues when translating from one media to another.  The classic example is book-to-film.  We all know books that haven't translated well on film.  Part of this is the fundamental differences in the forms and conventions of the various media.  Books have dialog and narrative describing the events, where filmed versions rely more on visual manifestations to cover the narrative elements.

Games are no different.  When dealing with an IP, they have to convert the various conventions from the original media to the game engine.  Some IPs can make this transition far easier than others.  Frank Herbert's Dune relies on internal thoughts of the characters to carry the story.  There just isn't a good way to present this on film, and the various filmed versions have suffered because of this.

Scot

Mendel said:

IPs are a very sticky business.  Ultimately, the IP is a fully fleshed story with settings, characters and plot.  And because it is a fully fleshed out story, it can suffer issues when translating from one media to another.  The classic example is book-to-film.  We all know books that haven't translated well on film.  Part of this is the fundamental differences in the forms and conventions of the various media.  Books have dialog and narrative describing the events, where filmed versions rely more on visual manifestations to cover the narrative elements.

Games are no different.  When dealing with an IP, they have to convert the various conventions from the original media to the game engine.  Some IPs can make this transition far easier than others.  Frank Herbert's Dune relies on internal thoughts of the characters to carry the story.  There just isn't a good way to present this on film, and the various filmed versions have suffered because of this.

The obvious way to do Dune is with voice over, but that has a very checkered history take Troy for example. It can work well as is some film noir, but really when voice over gets mentioned that's a flag that maybe you should not be attempting this. Lynch's Dune still the best in my eyes.

AlBQuirky

Torval said:

I don't see it as a double-edged sword because people are going to create derivative works from the original. That's just how art has always worked. If I enjoy the medium and format it's present on and I like the IP then I'll engage, if not I'll ignore it.

Fans are tribal and tie a part of their identity to some forms and feel entitled to gatekeep other forms. That's just human nature tribalizing like it always has. I try and ignore that when I can, but it's easy to get drawn into arguments over it.

Lord of the Rings is a good example and same with The Witcher. There are literary fans who don't want to see it explored outside the pages of a novel. Some gamers don't like to see a beloved IP in a genre format they're not interested in. Other IP fans like D&D and Warhammer are used to it.

So, I take what I like and ignore what I don't. What harm is there?

So, you do think IPs are a double edged sword with a set of baggage?

AlBQuirky

Mendel said:

IPs are a very sticky business.  Ultimately, the IP is a fully fleshed story with settings, characters and plot.  And because it is a fully fleshed out story, it can suffer issues when translating from one media to another.  The classic example is book-to-film.  We all know books that haven't translated well on film.  Part of this is the fundamental differences in the forms and conventions of the various media.  Books have dialog and narrative describing the events, where filmed versions rely more on visual manifestations to cover the narrative elements.

Games are no different.  When dealing with an IP, they have to convert the various conventions from the original media to the game engine.  Some IPs can make this transition far easier than others.  Frank Herbert's Dune relies on internal thoughts of the characters to carry the story.  There just isn't a good way to present this on film, and the various filmed versions have suffered because of this.

I'm in the same boat, pretty much. I empathize with people who want to see a favorite IP in another medium. I have beloved IPs, too.

The latest "book to TV" IPs that have come out lately and the "anime to live action" have reinforced my belief that every IP has its place to shine.

Arcane has shown me that a game IP can cross mediums, as long as they don't attempt a 1:1 conversion. I've heard that many other people have enjoyed watching Castlevania. I have not watched it, but another example of a game IP crossing over to another medium. Even the few "anime to live action" have yet impress me. You can't do with live action (no matter how much CGI is used) what one can do in animation

One question I had was what olepi cited: How is LotR Online compare to the series. I tried playing a couple of times but never made it to Bree, which I'm lead to believe is the first "major" gathering point.

I also agree with Torval's assessment that it is up to each individual to decide if it works or not. But the use of IPs is divisive by their very nature.

Nebless

Good or bad just depends on how it's handled and what medium it's being done in.

Granted for games you've got a pre-existing fan base, but they generally come with high expectations.

I'd say books are probably the most forgiving as most will accept it not sticking exactly to the source with games the least.

Movies of course can go either way; Troy with Brad Pitt stuck fairly well to the Iliad, but a later BBC Troy mini-series only vaguely did.  The Conan movies - while the Jason Momoa generally catches crap it was a lot closer to R.E.H.'s works than Arnie's were and something I'm getting ready to watch again - Shakespeare's Richard III with Ian McKellen set in the 1930's is brilliant.

For games - Lord of the Rings was pretty spot on in the beginning, but with the into of the Runekeeper class with the Moria DLC it started to wander.  At this point I'd say it's stretched the boundaries of the IP but hasn't totally busted it yet.

Age of Conan has translated very well from the IP to the game and it's a shame Funcom hasn't supported it more.

And D&D has gotten a mixed bag with DDO following the tabletop version I used to play very well and Neverwinter; while fun to play, not so much.

Finally I guess I should mention Star Wars.  Star Wars Galaxies had a very strong fan base and it showed in game.  While not 100% with the source it was close enough and worked they loved it. 

Fast forward to Star Wars the Old Republic.  It's 'Star Wars', but ....... not ... so you have the SW fan base and because the setting isn't as well known as the original 3 movies were, alot that play have no clue if it follows the IP or not and the game itself by adding original SWG concepts doesn't seem to care if they are.  So you end up with something Star Warish enough to satisfy the old and the new fans.

laserit

My thoughts are that if your going to go with an IP, you better stick with it.

Or your going to piss people off.

Arglebargle

The entertainment industry is absolutely chock full, all in on IP.  Probably because most of the big brass wouldn't know something good if it bit them on the ass.  Multiple times.  Having an IP brings a baked in fanbase, and an excuse if it fails.  (It was popular over there!)

Good or bad is independent of the fanbase, but making money on it probably isn't.

laserit

Torval said:

AlBQuirky said:

Torval said:

I don't see it as a double-edged sword because people are going to create derivative works from the original. That's just how art has always worked. If I enjoy the medium and format it's present on and I like the IP then I'll engage, if not I'll ignore it.

Fans are tribal and tie a part of their identity to some forms and feel entitled to gatekeep other forms. That's just human nature tribalizing like it always has. I try and ignore that when I can, but it's easy to get drawn into arguments over it.

Lord of the Rings is a good example and same with The Witcher. There are literary fans who don't want to see it explored outside the pages of a novel. Some gamers don't like to see a beloved IP in a genre format they're not interested in. Other IP fans like D&D and Warhammer are used to it.

So, I take what I like and ignore what I don't. What harm is there?

So, you do think IPs are a double edged sword with a set of baggage?

No, I don't think that's inherent to an IP. I think it's inherent to tribal human nature regardless of the IP. The baggage comes from the entitled expectations of people. It happens whether an IP branches out across media/genres or stays within its original context. Fans argued over Star Wars, Empire, and Return of the Jedi. Tribal fan groups create baggage so they'll have something to ruminate over. This forum thrives on that.

I get where your coming from.

I'll take an example like ArcheAge, where they threw things in like race cars.

Things like that... just kills it for me.  

laserit

Torval said:

laserit said:

Torval said:

AlBQuirky said:

Torval said:

I don't see it as a double-edged sword because people are going to create derivative works from the original. That's just how art has always worked. If I enjoy the medium and format it's present on and I like the IP then I'll engage, if not I'll ignore it.

Fans are tribal and tie a part of their identity to some forms and feel entitled to gatekeep other forms. That's just human nature tribalizing like it always has. I try and ignore that when I can, but it's easy to get drawn into arguments over it.

Lord of the Rings is a good example and same with The Witcher. There are literary fans who don't want to see it explored outside the pages of a novel. Some gamers don't like to see a beloved IP in a genre format they're not interested in. Other IP fans like D&D and Warhammer are used to it.

So, I take what I like and ignore what I don't. What harm is there?

So, you do think IPs are a double edged sword with a set of baggage?

No, I don't think that's inherent to an IP. I think it's inherent to tribal human nature regardless of the IP. The baggage comes from the entitled expectations of people. It happens whether an IP branches out across media/genres or stays within its original context. Fans argued over Star Wars, Empire, and Return of the Jedi. Tribal fan groups create baggage so they'll have something to ruminate over. This forum thrives on that.

I get where your coming from.

I'll take an example like ArcheAge, where they threw things in like race cars.

Things like that... just kills it for me.  

Well, that is different from how I heard the OP. If I understood correctly the OP is talking about moving an IP across genres and media types. So instead of Warhammer being represented by its classic strategy roots, seeing it an RPG, mystery, interactive narrative/visual novel, movie, book, serial series, and so on.

A lot of fans hate that sort of format or genre change and then there are those who hold tightly to canon or assign canon to one format. Those various tribes don't always approve of those changes.

Adding something to the accepted format/genre that breaks the fourth wall is related, but not the always the same thing. Adding something ridiculous to a high fantasy setting like modern race cars breaks thematic consistency within the accepted format or media.

Sometimes though a format or genre change can also be perceived to break thematic consistency. For literary fans of Tolkien's work, the LotRO, Shadow of Mordor/War, and other LotR computer games absolutely does that. There are aspects to LotRO that are the equivalent of adding race cars to ArcheAge, like random dwarves wandering through Lothlorien and slew of other inconsistencies.

The racecar is the extreme example.

It shows how steep the slippery slope can get  

Scot

Torval said:

laserit said:

Torval said:

AlBQuirky said:

Torval said:

I don't see it as a double-edged sword because people are going to create derivative works from the original. That's just how art has always worked. If I enjoy the medium and format it's present on and I like the IP then I'll engage, if not I'll ignore it.

Fans are tribal and tie a part of their identity to some forms and feel entitled to gatekeep other forms. That's just human nature tribalizing like it always has. I try and ignore that when I can, but it's easy to get drawn into arguments over it.

Lord of the Rings is a good example and same with The Witcher. There are literary fans who don't want to see it explored outside the pages of a novel. Some gamers don't like to see a beloved IP in a genre format they're not interested in. Other IP fans like D&D and Warhammer are used to it.

So, I take what I like and ignore what I don't. What harm is there?

So, you do think IPs are a double edged sword with a set of baggage?

No, I don't think that's inherent to an IP. I think it's inherent to tribal human nature regardless of the IP. The baggage comes from the entitled expectations of people. It happens whether an IP branches out across media/genres or stays within its original context. Fans argued over Star Wars, Empire, and Return of the Jedi. Tribal fan groups create baggage so they'll have something to ruminate over. This forum thrives on that.

I get where your coming from.

I'll take an example like ArcheAge, where they threw things in like race cars.

Things like that... just kills it for me.  

Well, that is different from how I heard the OP. If I understood correctly the OP is talking about moving an IP across genres and media types. So instead of Warhammer being represented by its classic strategy roots, seeing it an RPG, mystery, interactive narrative/visual novel, movie, book, serial series, and so on.

A lot of fans hate that sort of format or genre change and then there are those who hold tightly to canon or assign canon to one format. Those various tribes don't always approve of those changes.

Adding something to the accepted format/genre that breaks the fourth wall is related, but not the always the same thing. Adding something ridiculous to a high fantasy setting like modern race cars breaks thematic consistency within the accepted format or media.

Sometimes though a format or genre change can also be perceived to break thematic consistency. For literary fans of Tolkien's work, the LotRO, Shadow of Mordor/War, and other LotR computer games absolutely does that. There are aspects to LotRO that are the equivalent of adding race cars to ArcheAge, like random dwarves wandering through Lothlorien and slew of other inconsistencies.

I think we can draw a line though, if it is there for gameplay reasons like those Dwarves in Lothlorien that's alright. If it is there for marketing reasons like Daleks in EvE that's going into the realm of commerce stamping all over lore. I know Tolkien fans who never wanted to see a game or film made of the books, I understand where they are coming from but feel that is going too far. Not every marketing led cross-over is necessarily bad but nearly all are; funnily enough I don't mind such nonsense so much in solo games, multiplayer is where I really complain.

AlBQuirky

Torval said:

laserit said:

Torval said:

AlBQuirky said:

Torval said:

I don't see it as a double-edged sword because people are going to create derivative works from the original. That's just how art has always worked. If I enjoy the medium and format it's present on and I like the IP then I'll engage, if not I'll ignore it.

Fans are tribal and tie a part of their identity to some forms and feel entitled to gatekeep other forms. That's just human nature tribalizing like it always has. I try and ignore that when I can, but it's easy to get drawn into arguments over it.

Lord of the Rings is a good example and same with The Witcher. There are literary fans who don't want to see it explored outside the pages of a novel. Some gamers don't like to see a beloved IP in a genre format they're not interested in. Other IP fans like D&D and Warhammer are used to it.

So, I take what I like and ignore what I don't. What harm is there?

So, you do think IPs are a double edged sword with a set of baggage?

No, I don't think that's inherent to an IP. I think it's inherent to tribal human nature regardless of the IP. The baggage comes from the entitled expectations of people. It happens whether an IP branches out across media/genres or stays within its original context. Fans argued over Star Wars, Empire, and Return of the Jedi. Tribal fan groups create baggage so they'll have something to ruminate over. This forum thrives on that.

I get where your coming from.

I'll take an example like ArcheAge, where they threw things in like race cars.

Things like that... just kills it for me.  

Well, that is different from how I heard the OP. If I understood correctly the OP is talking about moving an IP across genres and media types. So instead of Warhammer being represented by its classic strategy roots, seeing it an RPG, mystery, interactive narrative/visual novel, movie, book, serial series, and so on.

A lot of fans hate that sort of format or genre change and then there are those who hold tightly to canon or assign canon to one format. Those various tribes don't always approve of those changes.

Adding something to the accepted format/genre that breaks the fourth wall is related, but not the always the same thing. Adding something ridiculous to a high fantasy setting like modern race cars breaks thematic consistency within the accepted format or media.

Sometimes though a format or genre change can also be perceived to break thematic consistency. For literary fans of Tolkien's work, the LotRO, Shadow of Mordor/War, and other LotR computer games absolutely does that. There are aspects to LotRO that are the equivalent of adding race cars to ArcheAge, like random dwarves wandering through Lothlorien and slew of other inconsistencies.

I was trying to look at anyone wanting to use an IP. More often than not, they decide to use an IP and pay good money for it because they know it comes with its own built in fan base. Easy advertising with name recognition. This is the double-edged sword I'm talking about.

I'm looking at many of the attempts for IPs to cross into other mediums and wonder if using them is worth it, or if it would better to be create something new with zero expectations.

When using IPs works, it can be lucrative. Maybe that is what keeps companies trying?

I hope that explains what I'm trying to convey better

laserit

Scot said:

Torval said:

laserit said:

Torval said:

AlBQuirky said:

Torval said:

I don't see it as a double-edged sword because people are going to create derivative works from the original. That's just how art has always worked. If I enjoy the medium and format it's present on and I like the IP then I'll engage, if not I'll ignore it.

Fans are tribal and tie a part of their identity to some forms and feel entitled to gatekeep other forms. That's just human nature tribalizing like it always has. I try and ignore that when I can, but it's easy to get drawn into arguments over it.

Lord of the Rings is a good example and same with The Witcher. There are literary fans who don't want to see it explored outside the pages of a novel. Some gamers don't like to see a beloved IP in a genre format they're not interested in. Other IP fans like D&D and Warhammer are used to it.

So, I take what I like and ignore what I don't. What harm is there?

So, you do think IPs are a double edged sword with a set of baggage?

No, I don't think that's inherent to an IP. I think it's inherent to tribal human nature regardless of the IP. The baggage comes from the entitled expectations of people. It happens whether an IP branches out across media/genres or stays within its original context. Fans argued over Star Wars, Empire, and Return of the Jedi. Tribal fan groups create baggage so they'll have something to ruminate over. This forum thrives on that.

I get where your coming from.

I'll take an example like ArcheAge, where they threw things in like race cars.

Things like that... just kills it for me.  

Well, that is different from how I heard the OP. If I understood correctly the OP is talking about moving an IP across genres and media types. So instead of Warhammer being represented by its classic strategy roots, seeing it an RPG, mystery, interactive narrative/visual novel, movie, book, serial series, and so on.

A lot of fans hate that sort of format or genre change and then there are those who hold tightly to canon or assign canon to one format. Those various tribes don't always approve of those changes.

Adding something to the accepted format/genre that breaks the fourth wall is related, but not the always the same thing. Adding something ridiculous to a high fantasy setting like modern race cars breaks thematic consistency within the accepted format or media.

Sometimes though a format or genre change can also be perceived to break thematic consistency. For literary fans of Tolkien's work, the LotRO, Shadow of Mordor/War, and other LotR computer games absolutely does that. There are aspects to LotRO that are the equivalent of adding race cars to ArcheAge, like random dwarves wandering through Lothlorien and slew of other inconsistencies.

I think we can draw a line though, if it is there for gameplay reasons like those Dwarves in Lothlorien that's alright. If it is there for marketing reasons like Daleks in EvE that's going into the realm of commerce stamping all over lore. I know Tolkien fans who never wanted to see a game or film made of the books, I understand where they are coming from but feel that is going too far. Not every marketing led cross-over is necessarily bad but nearly all are; funnily enough I don't mind such nonsense so much in solo games, multiplayer is where I really complain.

LotR is such a wonderful example.

So let’s take SoM and SoW

I think taking liberties on an ip is great in situations like this.

 I think keeping to the spirit of the ip is what’s important.

laserit

AlBQuirky said:

Torval said:

laserit said:

Torval said:

AlBQuirky said:

Torval said:

I don't see it as a double-edged sword because people are going to create derivative works from the original. That's just how art has always worked. If I enjoy the medium and format it's present on and I like the IP then I'll engage, if not I'll ignore it.

Fans are tribal and tie a part of their identity to some forms and feel entitled to gatekeep other forms. That's just human nature tribalizing like it always has. I try and ignore that when I can, but it's easy to get drawn into arguments over it.

Lord of the Rings is a good example and same with The Witcher. There are literary fans who don't want to see it explored outside the pages of a novel. Some gamers don't like to see a beloved IP in a genre format they're not interested in. Other IP fans like D&D and Warhammer are used to it.

So, I take what I like and ignore what I don't. What harm is there?

So, you do think IPs are a double edged sword with a set of baggage?

No, I don't think that's inherent to an IP. I think it's inherent to tribal human nature regardless of the IP. The baggage comes from the entitled expectations of people. It happens whether an IP branches out across media/genres or stays within its original context. Fans argued over Star Wars, Empire, and Return of the Jedi. Tribal fan groups create baggage so they'll have something to ruminate over. This forum thrives on that.

I get where your coming from.

I'll take an example like ArcheAge, where they threw things in like race cars.

Things like that... just kills it for me.  

Well, that is different from how I heard the OP. If I understood correctly the OP is talking about moving an IP across genres and media types. So instead of Warhammer being represented by its classic strategy roots, seeing it an RPG, mystery, interactive narrative/visual novel, movie, book, serial series, and so on.

A lot of fans hate that sort of format or genre change and then there are those who hold tightly to canon or assign canon to one format. Those various tribes don't always approve of those changes.

Adding something to the accepted format/genre that breaks the fourth wall is related, but not the always the same thing. Adding something ridiculous to a high fantasy setting like modern race cars breaks thematic consistency within the accepted format or media.

Sometimes though a format or genre change can also be perceived to break thematic consistency. For literary fans of Tolkien's work, the LotRO, Shadow of Mordor/War, and other LotR computer games absolutely does that. There are aspects to LotRO that are the equivalent of adding race cars to ArcheAge, like random dwarves wandering through Lothlorien and slew of other inconsistencies.

I was trying to look at anyone wanting to use an IP. More often than not, they decide to use an IP and pay good money for it because they know it comes with its own built in fan base. Easy advertising with name recognition. This is the double-edged sword I'm talking about.

I'm looking at many of the attempts for IPs to cross into other mediums and wonder if using them is worth it, or if it would better to be create something new with zero expectations.

When using IPs works, it can be lucrative. Maybe that is what keeps companies trying?

I hope that explains what I'm trying to convey better

I think about the same thing pretty much.

IP's are such wonderful things, such great foundations to build from. But I fear that Artists these days and the holder of their works have come to a point in greed where I believe that IP's have become more of a deterrent towards creativity.

cheyane

I think the expectations are inherent but that does not mean that the IP is restrictive. It just means that you have to weigh the consequences of the changes. Some are very jarring but some things fit like steampunk can fit well into a lot of gadgetry it all depends on how far you want to the take it.

I believe in creativity and I love it when mods are done and creators make wonderful iterations of their interpretations of a world. 

Take Buffy and Angel and when the characters from Buffy came to Angel's show. I was delighted although people complained about it but they belonged to the same world. I think crossovers do poorly when they make no sense at all. If you have a good story behind it then go for it I say.

laserit

We have to admit that the quality of the writing will have a tremendous effect on the fans acceptance of the material.

Nebless

cheyane said:

Take Buffy and Angel and when the characters from Buffy came to Angel's show. I was delighted although people complained about it but they belonged to the same world. I think crossovers do poorly when they make no sense at all. If you have a good story behind it then go for it I say.

I think the tone of the shows as helps drive if cross-over's work or not.  The more tongue in cheek the easier it is to make it work.  My example would be when the CW does it's annual superhero cross-over event.

Those range from kind of serious (Arrow / Flash) to tongue in cheek (Legends of Tomorrow) and while they're not in the same world, so fit your 'makes no sense at all' comment.  the simple concept of parallel dimensions / multi-verse allows it to happen and you end up with a fairly decent cross-over.  The tongue in cheek element is what helps.

Hercules and Xena, Herc being more tongue in cheek, but they and the various supporting casts could cross-over with ease.

Iselin

I think what you're really looking at is the role of lore fanatics reacting on social media (and mainstream media reporting those social media reactions) any time their precious is touched by anyone in a way they don't envision as appropriate.

It doesn't even need to be a different medium. The hate and backlash can happen with sequels in the same medium (as happened with the latest 3 SW movies or the previous 3.)

I recently saw the "done in different media" version of that in December with the Wheel of Time TV show on Amazon with lore obsessives trashing what is actually a very good show. I have no idea how they expected their bloated, 14 volume, 8,000 page precious to be made into a TV series but they're sure this is not it and they're mad as hell about it lol.

So I get what you mean by double-edged sword and IMO, it's not worth doing it for the sake of bringing the already knowledgeable and committed along for the ride.

You should do it if you think the source material is rich and worth reimagining in a new medium and not count on old fans of the work to be your buddies. They will be your worst, nit-picking enemies who should be ignored since this is their default as it has always been but is now amplified by social media. 

laserit

Iselin said:

I think what you're really looking at is the role of lore fanatics reacting on social media (and mainstream media reporting those social media reactions) any time their precious is touched by anyone in a way they don't envision as appropriate.

It doesn't even need to be a different medium. The hate and backlash can happen with sequels in the same medium (as happened with the latest 3 SW movies or the previous 3.)

I recently saw the "done in different media" version of that in December with the Wheel of Time TV show on Amazon with lore obsessives trashing what is actually a very good show. I have no idea how they expected their bloated, 14 volume, 8,000 page precious to be made into a TV series but they're sure this is not it and they're mad as hell about it lol.

So I get what you mean by double-edged sword and IMO, it's not worth doing it for the sake of bringing the already knowledgeable and committed along for the ride.

You should do it if you think the source material is rich and worth reimagining in a new medium and not count on old fans of the work to be your buddies. They will be your worst, nit-picking enemies who should be ignored since this is their default as it has always been but is now amplified by social media. 

Agreed

You would think that the fanatics could see that the new medium is bringing in new fans who might want to read the books after they are done with the movies.

But such is the life of a fanatic.

Quizzical

A gaming IP moving to another game is commonly fine.  Trying to bring non-gaming IPs in to be the basis of a game is often trouble.  The problem is that any effort at trying to be faithful to the IP is not effort at making a good game.  If making a good game isn't your primary focus in game design, then you're unlikely to accidentally succeed at it.

That doesn't mean that all games based on non-gaming IPs are bad.  But it does mean that it's harder to make a game that is good and also faithful to an IP than it is to just make a good game.  And the latter is hard enough as it is.

I suppose that one could make a game that is nominally based on some IP without trying to be faithful to the IP.  But it would be really jarring for fans of the IP to see familiar characters acting in ways that are totally out of character.  That would defeat the point of licensing the IP.

laserit

Torval said:

laserit said:

Iselin said:

I think what you're really looking at is the role of lore fanatics reacting on social media (and mainstream media reporting those social media reactions) any time their precious is touched by anyone in a way they don't envision as appropriate.

It doesn't even need to be a different medium. The hate and backlash can happen with sequels in the same medium (as happened with the latest 3 SW movies or the previous 3.)

I recently saw the "done in different media" version of that in December with the Wheel of Time TV show on Amazon with lore obsessives trashing what is actually a very good show. I have no idea how they expected their bloated, 14 volume, 8,000 page precious to be made into a TV series but they're sure this is not it and they're mad as hell about it lol.

So I get what you mean by double-edged sword and IMO, it's not worth doing it for the sake of bringing the already knowledgeable and committed along for the ride.

You should do it if you think the source material is rich and worth reimagining in a new medium and not count on old fans of the work to be your buddies. They will be your worst, nit-picking enemies who should be ignored since this is their default as it has always been but is now amplified by social media. 

Agreed

You would think that the fanatics could see that the new medium is bringing in new fans who might want to read the books after they are done with the movies.

But such is the life of a fanatic.

In that sense I can definitely see the argument of the double-edged sword. That sort of goes back to my original point that an original set of fans feel entitled to own and gatekeep derivative works of any kind. I see it as an expected display of tribalistic possessive human traits. It's also in our nature to observe, imitate, and derive. The two usually don't mix well in my opinion.

That is because it is exactly how you see it imho

Scot

laserit said:

We have to admit that the quality of the writing will have a tremendous effect on the fans acceptance of the material.

I have never spoken to a Tolkien fan who objected to the Elves turning up at Helms Deep, do it well and you will be forgiven. But some things may go beyond the pale no matter how well written. I am not sure how I ever would have accepted changing the looks and relative heights/body mass of two Dwarves just to set up a Dwarf/Elf romance no matter how good the writing.