D&D, the early days

Amaranthar

Another thread had the question of how the numbering system that games use came about, and if D&D started it. (Yes, D&D did.)

There was a magazine named "Dragon Magazine" that was very good. It was mostly about D&D, but really about table top war gaming, which is where D&D grew out of. 
Many topics were discussed, rules better defined (take it or leave it, per DM), and current news, of course. 

One thing to note is that the current topic about Level Grinds and Power Gaps were going on even way back then, or at least within a few years of D&D's beginnings. That's always been a hotly debated topic. 

The term "Monty Hall Campaign" came out of D&D, as some Dungeon Masters would give their players whatever they wanted, just to win their support for their DMing. Monty Hall was a famous game show host for "Lets Make A Deal", if you get that reference to handing out loads of loot. This was another hotly debated topic. And you can still see the echo of it today in the gear progression topics.  

The Class Based leveling system was widely accepted and loved. It just was the most fun, and it helped a Player feel in touch with their Character. 
Identity! It's important to people. 
However, the Class based system has always had the drawback of limiting a Character to "just that." And even back then there were debates about such things. But Skill Based systems were cumbersome on paper, and kind of sucked the fun out of the adventuring. It wasn't until computers that Skill Based started picking up steam. 

Some of you may be familiar with the name "Mordenkainen." That was the Character for one of the guys that helped develop D&D in it's beginnings. 
I think "Grayhawk" was another, but I'm not sure. 

Well, that's all I can think of at the moment. 
D&D sure started something. But if they hadn't, I'm sure someone else would have. 

Scot

Nothing ever changes, but also nothing ever stays the same.

bcbully

Amaranthar said:

Another thread had the question of how the numbering system that games use came about, and if D&D started it. (Yes, D&D did.)

There was a magazine named "Dragon Magazine" that was very good. It was mostly about D&D, but really about table top war gaming, which is where D&D grew out of. 
Many topics were discussed, rules better defined (take it or leave it, per DM), and current news, of course. 

One thing to note is that the current topic about Level Grinds and Power Gaps were going on even way back then, or at least within a few years of D&D's beginnings. That's always been a hotly debated topic. 

The term "Monty Hall Campaign" came out of D&D, as some Dungeon Masters would give their players whatever they wanted, just to win their support for their DMing. Monty Hall was a famous game show host for "Lets Make A Deal", if you get that reference to handing out loads of loot. This was another hotly debated topic. And you can still see the echo of it today in the gear progression topics.  

The Class Based leveling system was widely accepted and loved. It just was the most fun, and it helped a Player feel in touch with their Character. 
Identity! It's important to people. 
However, the Class based system has always had the drawback of limiting a Character to "just that." And even back then there were debates about such things. But Skill Based systems were cumbersome on paper, and kind of sucked the fun out of the adventuring. It wasn't until computers that Skill Based started picking up steam. 

Some of you may be familiar with the name "Mordenkainen." That was the Character for one of the guys that helped develop D&D in it's beginnings. 
I think "Grayhawk" was another, but I'm not sure. 

Well, that's all I can think of at the moment. 
D&D sure started something. But if they hadn't, I'm sure someone else would have. 

Me as a kid, to heck with the loot. I just wanted to roll my dice for attributes and use my skill points. My first use of spread sheets was making charter sheets. Remember when random character generators came out? "reroll reroll reroll" Ok ok I can only reroll 5 times this time. Choose wisely young BC choose wisely.

olepi

I didn't play D&D in the early days. My gaming was Avalon Hill board war games. I was happy when I could play a game like that on a computer.

I guess Baldur's Gate was my first real exposure to D&D.

Sovrath

My first exposure to D&D was to the basic set. The one in the box with the dragon on it. Simple dungeon, just my cousin and I. I thought it was the best thing ever though I wanted to rise in power to become "a dungeon master." We were kids so I didn't really have a grasp on the fact that anyone could be a dungeon master.

I still have hordes of books that I need to get rid of as I really don't play anymore and quite frankly, lists and spreadsheets and numbers don't excite me.

I remember making my first campaign and I felt they slowed down the action and the storytelling so I simplified quite a bit.

I never killed a player's character but always mad them think it could be killed. Worse thing would be some sort of curse or detriment that they would have to go on some adventure to have it reversed/removed.

Mendel

tzervo said:

olepi said:

I didn't play D&D in the early days. My gaming was Avalon Hill board war games. I was happy when I could play a game like that on a computer.

I guess Baldur's Gate was my first real exposure to D&D.

I wasn't that lucky. As a child, my friends liked D&D more. I bought some Avalon Hill games ("Republic of Rome", "Wooden Ships and Iron Men", "Russian Front") and they ended up gathering dust.

In retrospect, I think that if I had buddies that played board games, or if we had MMORPG's at that time, I would preferred playing these.

By the way, if you still play such board games, Republic of Rome highly recommended. Possibly the best board game I have ever played. Very rules-heavy though, needs friends with patience and the will to soldier through the rules.

I was in the WS&IM camp as far as the best board game.  To me, it was the best of the AH games.  But I was more influenced by SPI.  The 70s were a great time to be a board gamer.  (Oh, yeah, and all the role playing games).

Scot

D&D got me into table top, but once I had bought "Call of Cthulhu" I realised systems could be both easier and more aptly fit a roleplaying setting. I never looked back, but D20 evolved and some of the later "versions" like "Faded Suns" were very good.

Dibdabs

I used to play tabletop wargames and eventually our group happened upon the "Chainmail" book of rules which eventually grew into a set of rulebooks that became known at that time as the "White Box" D&D set because, obviously, the box was white.  Further down the line we saw the creation of the Basic D&D rules in the red box and after that the game really took off.  I worked in a games store during D&D and AD&Ds heyday, which also say the rise of a myriad of other role-playing games.

I wish I'd bought a few of the White Box set and tucked them away as they're worth a lot of money now.  I still have a large-ish collection of AD&D stuff (the Judge's Guild stuff as well as the official stuff) and Dragon mags from the 80's and 90's but I think I may have to get rid of it all because I need the space these days!

olepi

Mendel said:

tzervo said:

olepi said:

I didn't play D&D in the early days. My gaming was Avalon Hill board war games. I was happy when I could play a game like that on a computer.

I guess Baldur's Gate was my first real exposure to D&D.

I wasn't that lucky. As a child, my friends liked D&D more. I bought some Avalon Hill games ("Republic of Rome", "Wooden Ships and Iron Men", "Russian Front") and they ended up gathering dust.

In retrospect, I think that if I had buddies that played board games, or if we had MMORPG's at that time, I would preferred playing these.

By the way, if you still play such board games, Republic of Rome highly recommended. Possibly the best board game I have ever played. Very rules-heavy though, needs friends with patience and the will to soldier through the rules.

I was in the WS&IM camp as far as the best board game.  To me, it was the best of the AH games.  But I was more influenced by SPI.  The 70s were a great time to be a board gamer.  (Oh, yeah, and all the role playing games).

I played the Avalon Hill games in the 60's. I remember Jutland, where you had little ships and had to play outside, since it was to scale. Some of the ships were yards apart.

Gettysburg is probably my favorite, since I'm a history buff too.

By the 70's, I was already a sysadmin for a UNIX system on the Net. I remember when I first got the source code for Adventure. It was in Fortran. Of course I cheated and read the secret codes, etc

Theocritus

If not for The Hobbit and Lord of the RIngs you probably would not have had D&D....Really Tolkien set the stage for fantasy worlds.

Amaranthar

tzervo said:

Theocritus said:

If not for The Hobbit and Lord of the RIngs you probably would not have had D&D....Really Tolkien set the stage for fantasy worlds.

Or Homer, greek and norse mythology. Tolkien drew a lot of inspiration from these, as did the D&D creators. It is never a one-man show.

Yeah, Real World mythology is amazingly rich. I like to do searches on that stuff from time to time because it's enjoyable to read all about it. Even though it can be quite confusing as the stories often conflict, lol. 

Add in Scotch-Irish, because they had a very heavy influence when it comes to Elves and Magical Kingdoms and the like. Well, they are the best known, as other regions had similar mythologies, just not nearly as well known. 

Mythologies are a fascinating look into the minds of ancient man, as they tried to explain the mysteries of the universe. 

In these times they use languages to follow connections between ancient peoples and their movements. 
But I think you could do something like that with mythologies too. It's just harder because so much of that evidence is lost or changed. 

Scorchien

tzervo said:

Theocritus said:

If not for The Hobbit and Lord of the RIngs you probably would not have had D&D....Really Tolkien set the stage for fantasy worlds.

Or Homer, greek and norse mythology. Tolkien drew a lot of inspiration from these, as did the D&D creators. It is never a one-man show.

As well as WW1

Amaranthar

Scorchien said:

tzervo said:

Theocritus said:

If not for The Hobbit and Lord of the RIngs you probably would not have had D&D....Really Tolkien set the stage for fantasy worlds.

Or Homer, greek and norse mythology. Tolkien drew a lot of inspiration from these, as did the D&D creators. It is never a one-man show.

As well as WW1

It was WWII, unless there's something (that you mean) that I don't know about?

I confirmed that by going to Wikipedia where I noticed something very interesting.
Quoting Wikipedia:
"Tolkien presents The Lord of the Rings within a fictional frame story where he is not the original author, but merely the translator of part of an ancient document, the Red Book of Westmarch.[6] That book is modelled on the real Red Book of Hergest, which similarly presents an older mythology. Various details of the frame story appear in the Prologue, its "Note on Shire Records", and in the Appendices, notably Appendix F. In this frame story, the Red Book is the purported source of Tolkien's other works relating to Middle-earth: The Hobbit, The Silmarillion, and The Adventures of Tom Bombadil.[7]"

I haven't looked yet, but this "real Red Book of Hergest" sounds interesting. 

Amaranthar

Amaranthar said:

Scorchien said:

tzervo said:

Theocritus said:

If not for The Hobbit and Lord of the RIngs you probably would not have had D&D....Really Tolkien set the stage for fantasy worlds.

Or Homer, greek and norse mythology. Tolkien drew a lot of inspiration from these, as did the D&D creators. It is never a one-man show.

As well as WW1

It was WWII, unless there's something (that you mean) that I don't know about?

I confirmed that by going to Wikipedia where I noticed something very interesting.
Quoting Wikipedia:
"Tolkien presents The Lord of the Rings within a fictional frame story where he is not the original author, but merely the translator of part of an ancient document, the Red Book of Westmarch.[6] That book is modelled on the real Red Book of Hergest, which similarly presents an older mythology. Various details of the frame story appear in the Prologue, its "Note on Shire Records", and in the Appendices, notably Appendix F. In this frame story, the Red Book is the purported source of Tolkien's other works relating to Middle-earth: The Hobbit, The Silmarillion, and The Adventures of Tom Bombadil.[7]"

I haven't looked yet, but this "real Red Book of Hergest" sounds interesting. 

So I went to the page for the Red Book of Hergest, perused it briefly, and noticed this:

See also[edit]

• White Book of Hergest
• White Book of Rhydderch 

Someone above mentioned a "white book". I guess such ideas are as old as the hills. 

Scorchien

Amaranthar said:

Amaranthar said:

Scorchien said:

tzervo said:

Theocritus said:

If not for The Hobbit and Lord of the RIngs you probably would not have had D&D....Really Tolkien set the stage for fantasy worlds.

Or Homer, greek and norse mythology. Tolkien drew a lot of inspiration from these, as did the D&D creators. It is never a one-man show.

As well as WW1

It was WWII, unless there's something (that you mean) that I don't know about?

I confirmed that by going to Wikipedia where I noticed something very interesting.
Quoting Wikipedia:
"Tolkien presents The Lord of the Rings within a fictional frame story where he is not the original author, but merely the translator of part of an ancient document, the Red Book of Westmarch.[6] That book is modelled on the real Red Book of Hergest, which similarly presents an older mythology. Various details of the frame story appear in the Prologue, its "Note on Shire Records", and in the Appendices, notably Appendix F. In this frame story, the Red Book is the purported source of Tolkien's other works relating to Middle-earth: The Hobbit, The Silmarillion, and The Adventures of Tom Bombadil.[7]"

I haven't looked yet, but this "real Red Book of Hergest" sounds interesting. 

So I went to the page for the Red Book of Hergest, perused it briefly, and noticed this:

See also[edit]

• White Book of Hergest
• White Book of Rhydderch 

Someone above mentioned a "white book". I guess such ideas are as old as the hills. 

It was WW1 , he drew from his time fighting in WW1..

 And some of his son in WW2 ..

  technically both ..

  But he drew from his own experiences in WW1 is a True statement ..

  He was not in WW2 .. altho his son was..

olepi

tzervo said:

Scorchien said:

Amaranthar said:

Amaranthar said:

Scorchien said:

As well as WW1

It was WWII, unless there's something (that you mean) that I don't know about?
...

...

It was WW1 , he drew from his time fighting in WW1

Yep: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_War_and_Middle-earth

J. R. R. Tolkien took part in the First World War, known then as the Great War, and began his fantasy Middle-earth writings at that time.

Tolkien worked as a news correspondent in WWII. He said he wrote some of the Lord of the Rings Trilogy during that time.

He started the Silmarilion much earlier, as an obscure work of mostly linguistic interest. He had no idea that people would really like it, and want more "lore".

Scorchien

olepi said:

tzervo said:

Scorchien said:

Amaranthar said:

Amaranthar said:

Scorchien said:

As well as WW1

It was WWII, unless there's something (that you mean) that I don't know about?
...

...

It was WW1 , he drew from his time fighting in WW1

Yep: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_War_and_Middle-earth

J. R. R. Tolkien took part in the First World War, known then as the Great War, and began his fantasy Middle-earth writings at that time.

Tolkien worked as a news correspondent in WWII. He said he wrote some of the Lord of the Rings Trilogy during that time.

He started the Silmarilion much earlier, as an obscure work of mostly linguistic interest. He had no idea that people would really like it, and want more "lore".

Tolkien was reluctant to explain influences on his writing, specifically denying that The Lord of the Rings was an allegory of the Second World War, but admitting to certain connections with the Great War(WW1)

olepi

Scorchien said:

olepi said:

tzervo said:

Scorchien said:

Amaranthar said:

Amaranthar said:

Scorchien said:

As well as WW1

It was WWII, unless there's something (that you mean) that I don't know about?
...

...

It was WW1 , he drew from his time fighting in WW1

Yep: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_War_and_Middle-earth

J. R. R. Tolkien took part in the First World War, known then as the Great War, and began his fantasy Middle-earth writings at that time.

Tolkien worked as a news correspondent in WWII. He said he wrote some of the Lord of the Rings Trilogy during that time.

He started the Silmarilion much earlier, as an obscure work of mostly linguistic interest. He had no idea that people would really like it, and want more "lore".

Tolkien was reluctant to explain influences on his writing, specifically denying that The Lord of the Rings was an allegory of the Second World War, but admitting to certain connections with the Great War(WW1)

Yeah, he said that he hates allegory, when he can detect it. And if LOTR was an allegory, then both sides would have their own One Ring, etc.

Amaranthar

olepi said:

Scorchien said:

olepi said:

tzervo said:

Scorchien said:

Amaranthar said:

Amaranthar said:

Scorchien said:

As well as WW1

It was WWII, unless there's something (that you mean) that I don't know about?
...

...

It was WW1 , he drew from his time fighting in WW1

Yep: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_War_and_Middle-earth

J. R. R. Tolkien took part in the First World War, known then as the Great War, and began his fantasy Middle-earth writings at that time.

Tolkien worked as a news correspondent in WWII. He said he wrote some of the Lord of the Rings Trilogy during that time.

He started the Silmarilion much earlier, as an obscure work of mostly linguistic interest. He had no idea that people would really like it, and want more "lore".

Tolkien was reluctant to explain influences on his writing, specifically denying that The Lord of the Rings was an allegory of the Second World War, but admitting to certain connections with the Great War(WW1)

Yeah, he said that he hates allegory, when he can detect it. And if LOTR was an allegory, then both sides would have their own One Ring, etc.

That's very interesting. 

TwistedSister77

olepi said:

Scorchien said:

olepi said:

tzervo said:

Scorchien said:

Amaranthar said:

Amaranthar said:

Scorchien said:

As well as WW1

It was WWII, unless there's something (that you mean) that I don't know about?
...

...

It was WW1 , he drew from his time fighting in WW1

Yep: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_War_and_Middle-earth

J. R. R. Tolkien took part in the First World War, known then as the Great War, and began his fantasy Middle-earth writings at that time.

Tolkien worked as a news correspondent in WWII. He said he wrote some of the Lord of the Rings Trilogy during that time.

He started the Silmarilion much earlier, as an obscure work of mostly linguistic interest. He had no idea that people would really like it, and want more "lore".

Tolkien was reluctant to explain influences on his writing, specifically denying that The Lord of the Rings was an allegory of the Second World War, but admitting to certain connections with the Great War(WW1)

Yeah, he said that he hates allegory, when he can detect it. And if LOTR was an allegory, then both sides would have their own One Ring, etc.

Yes and one of his best friends, and fellow professor C.S. Lewis... unapologetically wrote a straight up allegory for Christianity in the Cronicles of Narnia books for children.  CS Lewis saw an early draft for the universe of Middle-earth..  and encouraged Tolkien to keep writing it out.  Tolkien stayed up all night and helped CS Lewis return to Christianity (Lewis was having massive doubts and only a Chistian for 3 years at that point)

Cool stuff that 2 of the most influential writers were buddy professors at Oxford.

TwistedSister77

Playing D&D and other dice RPGs are awesome at night inside your tent camping w/friends.  Makes the sessions more  immersive, and it's a fun thing to do before bed camping.  Or outside by a campfire.  It's like you are an adventurer in the story.

Unfortunately, kids these days won't play with me (nieces and nephews)... they have very little attention span, imagination, and also patience for learning game rules.

Theocritus

TwistedSister77 said:

Playing D&D and other dice RPGs are awesome at night inside your tent camping w/friends.  Makes the sessions more  immersive, and it's a fun thing to do before bed camping.  Or outside by a campfire.  It's like you are an adventurer in the story.

Unfortunately, kids these days won't play with me (nieces and nephews)... they have very little attention span, imagination, and also patience for learning game rules.

You probably need a D&D phone app to get the kids ineterested these days......

TwistedSister77

Theocritus said:

TwistedSister77 said:

Playing D&D and other dice RPGs are awesome at night inside your tent camping w/friends.  Makes the sessions more  immersive, and it's a fun thing to do before bed camping.  Or outside by a campfire.  It's like you are an adventurer in the story.

Unfortunately, kids these days won't play with me (nieces and nephews)... they have very little attention span, imagination, and also patience for learning game rules.

You probably need a D&D phone app to get the kids ineterested these days......

Yep, and to read a book too.  Speaking of which, on the Google store (not sure about apple):  "D&D Style Choice Game".

  This is a great book that is a "game book"( e.g. choose your own adventure type of book, but you have resources and certain choices use up resources... making you double think when to use your resources to pick a better *potentially* choice).

I read the Wizard's book, going to try the other character stories.

eoloe

I started with the Dark Eye. I had fun. But when our GM bought AdC, I discovered the real potential of tabletop RPGs.

D&D, AD&D, and their clones (Pathfinder, the Dark Eye, etc.) are too anchored in their wargames roots.

All the too-heavy-rules games are killing the mood and the narration by excess of simulationism.

For example GURPS or Middle Earth (I still cannot fathom how they botched this one).

I had too much fun with:

- AdC (Awesome memories at night by the chimney - we were really scared)

- Stormbringer (loved the summoning system and the fact that the DM was making us play characters of major importance)

- Cyperpunk (did not like the rules - loved the universe)

- Nephilim (among the best memories, esoteric stories during various moment of the human History, the scenarii were really impressive)

- Vampire the Masquerade (one of the best for sure - loved the shovel of dice system - loved the intrigues - loved the sandbox that Chicago by Night allowed)

- Special mention for Rêve: the Dream Ouroboros one of the most original medieval fantastic RPG ever made (the universe is dreamt by dragons - nothing is real - watch for nightmare creatures! - Being a magician = manipulating the dream - a lot of scenarii are based on understanding weird cultural differences instead of dungeon bashing)

Akulas

Am I the only one who thinks that a non computerised skill based character would be enjoyable. I mean, who wouldn't want to engage in non combat activities and go through the process of gathering, manufacturing into a final product. Except it's in a dungeon and dragon rule set and with dice rolls and there is 75 other skills to choose from including actual combat. Would give a more accomplished feeling and is probably what I would do in my spare time if electronic game play died for what ever reason.

D&D most likely would have been inspired by war generals sitting around a table discussing strat and it branched off from there.

laserit

I've only had the pleasure of playing the fucked up kid version of D&D


Motorcycles and girls changed me

edit: Not true, the motorcycles didn't lol