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Lost Ark Will Tweak Difficulty of Several Raids and Dungeons After Player Feedback | MMORPG.com

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  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 24,429
    edited March 2022
    Kyleran said:
    Scot said:
    One of these days we will see a article where a MMO has made something harder and I will fall of my chair. Ever easier is the direction gaming has been going in since the start of the millennium.

    Using player feedback is a double edged sword and they must know this, players will constantly ask for things which are bad for the game. The final decision is with them so no excuses, this is their baby not the players.
    Except that, there's little evidence that gamers quit when a game is too easy, however they will flee in droves if they hit a wall or feel the effort doesn't equal the rewards.

    I'll go so far as to say a greater majority of people play games to get a sense of accomplishment or progression, those seeking ever greater challenge are in the minority.

    I have seen games where developers actually amped up the difficulty at launch after being easier in beta and the howls of rage were legendary.  I think even New World had some of this.

    A developer can always make it easier and keep most players happy, making it more difficult after release is rarely welcomed unless the rewards are amped up extraordinarily.
    I am agreeing, but that is leading developers to make the wrong decisions. If we look at this just from the point of view "what will keep most players", then do exactly what the gaming industry is doing, they know this and that's why they do it. But do you think if they had a lot of feedback which said "make the game harder" they would take any notice of that?

    What I am getting at is the ever easier curve is pre-ordained and has nothing to do with "player feedback". At most that might make them bring something forward a couple of months or push something back a couple of months. Yet that is the excuse developers so often give.

    I am not surprised the developers in NW amped up the difficulty for launch, they have yet to prove to me they know how a MMORPG should be made.

    On the wider question of difficulty I am not arguing that we should go back to rogue like or corpse runs, just that like with nearly any aspect of the way the 'modern game' (WoW executive speak) has developed it has go too far. One golden rule I adhere to is 'if you make things easier you must give the players something else to do', you can't keep decreasing time sinks without consequences.
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 44,059
    Scot said:
    Kyleran said:
    Scot said:
    One of these days we will see a article where a MMO has made something harder and I will fall of my chair. Ever easier is the direction gaming has been going in since the start of the millennium.

    Using player feedback is a double edged sword and they must know this, players will constantly ask for things which are bad for the game. The final decision is with them so no excuses, this is their baby not the players.
    Except that, there's little evidence that gamers quit when a game is too easy, however they will flee in droves if they hit a wall or feel the effort doesn't equal the rewards.

    I'll go so far as to say a greater majority of people play games to get a sense of accomplishment or progression, those seeking ever greater challenge are in the minority.

    I have seen games where developers actually amped up the difficulty at launch after being easier in beta and the howls of rage were legendary.  I think even New World had some of this.

    A developer can always make it easier and keep most players happy, making it more difficult after release is rarely welcomed unless the rewards are amped up extraordinarily.
    I am agreeing, but that is leading developers to make the wrong decisions. If we look at this just from the point of view "what will keep most players", then do exactly what the gaming industry is doing, they know this and that's why they do it. But do you think if they had a lot of feedback which said "make the game harder" they would take any notice of that?

    What I am getting at is the ever easier curve is pre-ordained and has nothing to do with "player feedback". At most that might make them bring something forward a couple of months or push something back a couple of months. Yet that is the excuse developers so often give.

    I am not surprised the developers in NW amped up the difficulty for launch, they have yet to prove to me they know how a MMORPG should be made.

    On the wider question of difficulty I am not arguing that we should go back to rogue like or corpse runs, just that like with nearly any aspect of the way the 'modern game' (WoW executive speak) has developed it has go too far. One golden rule I adhere to is 'if you make things easier you must give the players something else to do', you can't keep decreasing time sinks without consequences.
    Are you talking about in difficulty or in duration when you speak about game devs making things easier?


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  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 24,429
    Kyleran said:
    Scot said:
    Kyleran said:
    Scot said:
    One of these days we will see a article where a MMO has made something harder and I will fall of my chair. Ever easier is the direction gaming has been going in since the start of the millennium.

    Using player feedback is a double edged sword and they must know this, players will constantly ask for things which are bad for the game. The final decision is with them so no excuses, this is their baby not the players.
    Except that, there's little evidence that gamers quit when a game is too easy, however they will flee in droves if they hit a wall or feel the effort doesn't equal the rewards.

    I'll go so far as to say a greater majority of people play games to get a sense of accomplishment or progression, those seeking ever greater challenge are in the minority.

    I have seen games where developers actually amped up the difficulty at launch after being easier in beta and the howls of rage were legendary.  I think even New World had some of this.

    A developer can always make it easier and keep most players happy, making it more difficult after release is rarely welcomed unless the rewards are amped up extraordinarily.
    I am agreeing, but that is leading developers to make the wrong decisions. If we look at this just from the point of view "what will keep most players", then do exactly what the gaming industry is doing, they know this and that's why they do it. But do you think if they had a lot of feedback which said "make the game harder" they would take any notice of that?

    What I am getting at is the ever easier curve is pre-ordained and has nothing to do with "player feedback". At most that might make them bring something forward a couple of months or push something back a couple of months. Yet that is the excuse developers so often give.

    I am not surprised the developers in NW amped up the difficulty for launch, they have yet to prove to me they know how a MMORPG should be made.

    On the wider question of difficulty I am not arguing that we should go back to rogue like or corpse runs, just that like with nearly any aspect of the way the 'modern game' (WoW executive speak) has developed it has go too far. One golden rule I adhere to is 'if you make things easier you must give the players something else to do', you can't keep decreasing time sinks without consequences.
    Are you talking about in difficulty or in duration when you speak about game devs making things easier?
    Well making things easier tends to speed up activities, so both. As an example if they are putting something, lets say another "level" in a multistage raid to make up for the fact you don't have to collect so many "moonbeams" to start the first stage that's fine. If you just keep making things easier and don't give players other time sinks, all you are doing is making the game have less depth and more instant gratification.
  • GroqstrongGroqstrong Member RarePosts: 826
    I can see where the nerfs are stemming from.  I dont have a problem with any of the content so far except for abyss dungeons.  The problem is not that its hard for me, but that my group often doesnt know the mechanics of the boss fight.  The boss's have mechanics that will insta wipe you if your timing is off.  
    [Deleted User]
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 17,652
    kitarad said:
    kitarad said:
    I think that the biggest issue is playing with strangers. People who don't know how to play and this exacerbates the grouping problems and while it might be possible to do these with players who don't know what they are doing you cannot call that a good grouping experience.


    But fairly easy to fix by grouping with people who know...
    I know that's kind of heresy today and we should just treat all the players around us like NPCs... but this is one issue that is 100% in the control of the player to "fix".
     
    You're expecting too much from a F2P game. The key here is to have as many players as possible playing so grouping with strangers will be happening a lot. We're not talking about what you would do but what an average F2Per would do.

    The majority of the feedback will also be from them complaining about the difficulties on the forum. Players who can handle it with friends are not going to grouse on forums. So they change it.

    When I played all the main story dungeons and daily dungeons in FFXIV I played with strangers all the time. Only the harder fights I grouped with guildees. Are you really saying that the majority of players only group among friends or is that less likely?

    The other thing is that we have people talking about MMORPGs having a world and playing with a huge population being a must ... if you're going to only play with friends or guildees that qualification is not necessary then is it. So as a game designer which tenet should you be encouraging, playing with friends or strangers.

    Of course ideally friends is best but those circumstances do not always come to be when one logs in.
    Yet every game of this type has guilds.  Lost Ark has a huge variety of them.  Many are purely casual.

    Again, this is 100% controllable and "fixable" on the end of the player. If you join a MMO type game, alone, and take no advantage of any of the socialization aspects of the game... well... yeah then everyone is always going to be a "stranger".

    F2P players who pay nothing... are only there to only add content for the paying folks.  And there is a limit to how many of those are beneficial.  
    [Deleted User]

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  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 44,059
    I can see where the nerfs are stemming from.  I dont have a problem with any of the content so far except for abyss dungeons.  The problem is not that its hard for me, but that my group often doesnt know the mechanics of the boss fight.  The boss's have mechanics that will insta wipe you if your timing is off.  
    So how do people learn the mechanics of the fight, unless the practice until they do?
    [Deleted User]

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

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  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 17,652
    Kyleran said:
    I can see where the nerfs are stemming from.  I dont have a problem with any of the content so far except for abyss dungeons.  The problem is not that its hard for me, but that my group often doesnt know the mechanics of the boss fight.  The boss's have mechanics that will insta wipe you if your timing is off.  
    So how do people learn the mechanics of the fight, unless the practice until they do?
    Let’s be honest.  90 percent today simply Google the fight and watch it.  

    I’d rather have my eyes scratched out… but that’s the trend today.

    Then they will complain that there isn’t enough content in the game.

    Also, there is apparently an amazing number of people that are in NA but previously played this game on Russian or Korean servers.  I’m absolutely shocked by how many folks…


    Me… I kind of hit a speed bump after Rohendel (sp?) and am doing island exploration pretty casually as I grind gear to 600.  Getting there… think I’m around 570 now.  

    There’s a ton of stuff in this game.  I’m pretty amazed at how much.



    Kyleran

    All time classic  MY NEW FAVORITE POST!  (Keep laying those bricks)

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

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  • GroqstrongGroqstrong Member RarePosts: 826
    Kyleran said:
    I can see where the nerfs are stemming from.  I dont have a problem with any of the content so far except for abyss dungeons.  The problem is not that its hard for me, but that my group often doesnt know the mechanics of the boss fight.  The boss's have mechanics that will insta wipe you if your timing is off.  
    So how do people learn the mechanics of the fight, unless the practice until they do?
    I wish you could see it before the patch but you won't.  I don't mind wiping and people learning, but some mechanics are insta wipe, not even high damage attacks.  In all honesty i don't mind wiping i even try to educate people before the fights on mechanics, but 15+ wipes with pugs in not uncommon and its a bit much. 
    ConstantineMerusKyleran
  • ConstantineMerusConstantineMerus Member EpicPosts: 3,338
    Kyleran said:
    I can see where the nerfs are stemming from.  I dont have a problem with any of the content so far except for abyss dungeons.  The problem is not that its hard for me, but that my group often doesnt know the mechanics of the boss fight.  The boss's have mechanics that will insta wipe you if your timing is off.  
    So how do people learn the mechanics of the fight, unless the practice until they do?
    I wish you could see it before the patch but you won't.  I don't mind wiping and people learning, but some mechanics are insta wipe, not even high damage attacks.  In all honesty i don't mind wiping i even try to educate people before the fights on mechanics, but 15+ wipes with pugs in not uncommon and its a bit much. 
    Problem is a lot of people are playing this game like Diablo. They really don't expect any mechanics, and would only rely their class optimum ability rotations and thinking with the recommended item level they should be fine.

    I don't mind wiping neither. But it is those players who get frustrated and leave, not me. 
    [Deleted User]GroqstrongKyleran
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  • kitaradkitarad Member LegendaryPosts: 8,177
    Kyleran said:
    I can see where the nerfs are stemming from.  I dont have a problem with any of the content so far except for abyss dungeons.  The problem is not that its hard for me, but that my group often doesnt know the mechanics of the boss fight.  The boss's have mechanics that will insta wipe you if your timing is off.  
    So how do people learn the mechanics of the fight, unless the practice until they do?
    Let’s be honest.  90 percent today simply Google the fight and watch it.  

    I’d rather have my eyes scratched out… but that’s the trend today.

    Then they will complain that there isn’t enough content in the game.

    Also, there is apparently an amazing number of people that are in NA but previously played this game on Russian or Korean servers.  I’m absolutely shocked by how many folks…


    Me… I kind of hit a speed bump after Rohendel (sp?) and am doing island exploration pretty casually as I grind gear to 600.  Getting there… think I’m around 570 now.  

    There’s a ton of stuff in this game.  I’m pretty amazed at how much.



    Everquest we wiped a lot while we learned and it took months sometimes to finally get the final boss down like may be when we did Cazic Thule or Temple of Veehsan it took almost 3 months to learn  and the penalties often involved loss of levels. Games these days don't even have those harsh penalties but the demographic has changed. There is no way a developer isn't going to change the difficulty of the lower tiers.

    Even with a guild, the guild can break up over their inability to handle the content like my old guild in WoW did. There is no way these days a majority of players who are F2P are going to stick around to slavishly throw themselves at the content and get one shotted.

    I don't see how people cannot understand why a developer would change this. They naturally would want to retain the player base longer. If you want people to handle the content you have to gradually get them into it and as they go up they might be invested enough to care to practice longer hours and try harder.

    There is however no way a group of pugs are going to handle the first tier if you make it hard. So you wean them in slowly until they enjoy the challenge then you bump up the difficulty.

    Besides they already changed the difficulty in Korea so even the Koreans had problems with it.
    Kyleran

  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 17,652
    kitarad said:




     There is no way these days a majority of players who are F2P are going to stick around to slavishly throw themselves at the content and get one shotted.

    I don't see how people cannot understand why a developer would change this. They naturally would want to retain the player base longer. 

    So if I am a developer, why do I need to add servers and change game mechanics to support players that will never pay a cent to me?  All I need are enough players so the ones paying have folks to interact with.

    The game already has a very, very low death penalty.. I have 4M silver already with nothing to really spend it on. Paying that 1000 silver repair bill from breaking my armor... well.. I could only afford to do that 4 thousand times...

    There is nothing I have encountered playing this game so far that is remotely hard.  It is almost entirely 100% solo friendly.. even running dungeons on "hard" is silly easy.

    Now maybe Tier 2 and 3 change that... but thats OK.

    I literally have 200 hours played on the game.  Now sure a big slice of that is sitting AFK to avoid queues for the first few weeks but I still have played this game a ton.  If there are a handful of "Raids" that end up requiring a coordinated group... well IMHO that would be a good thing.  As far as I know these are not 40 player Raids.  They are 4, some 8 person encounters. 

    My guild has 31 members.. ranging from the 200s to the 1100s. The general feedback from the higher folks is "Uhhh.. why would they nerf that?"


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  • kitaradkitarad Member LegendaryPosts: 8,177
    kitarad said:




     There is no way these days a majority of players who are F2P are going to stick around to slavishly throw themselves at the content and get one shotted.

    I don't see how people cannot understand why a developer would change this. They naturally would want to retain the player base longer. 

    So if I am a developer, why do I need to add servers and change game mechanics to support players that will never pay a cent to me?  All I need are enough players so the ones paying have folks to interact with.

    The game already has a very, very low death penalty.. I have 4M silver already with nothing to really spend it on. Paying that 1000 silver repair bill from breaking my armor... well.. I could only afford to do that 4 thousand times...

    There is nothing I have encountered playing this game so far that is remotely hard.  It is almost entirely 100% solo friendly.. even running dungeons on "hard" is silly easy.

    Now maybe Tier 2 and 3 change that... but thats OK.

    I literally have 200 hours played on the game.  Now sure a big slice of that is sitting AFK to avoid queues for the first few weeks but I still have played this game a ton.  If there are a handful of "Raids" that end up requiring a coordinated group... well IMHO that would be a good thing.  As far as I know these are not 40 player Raids.  They are 4, some 8 person encounters. 

    My guild has 31 members.. ranging from the 200s to the 1100s. The general feedback from the higher folks is "Uhhh.. why would they nerf that?"





    What gave you the impression that F2P players do not spend money on the game. They do buy cosmetics and other items. Just because you are not taking a sub or whatever system they have in place for the sub alternative does not mean they are not spending on other things. 

    We are all F2P players and we all spend money in various ways. In fact many hardcore players often put up videos saying how they never spent a dime on the game. F2P is the model and we are all F2P players and some of us spend more on the monthly purchases in the game but no developer is going to alienate the chance that more players might spend money.

    I always think that people only look at things from their perspective like you just did. ''Game is so easy for me so it must be so for the others. Game is dead easy for my guild so a majority of the players are like me and my guild.'' They're not. Many people have varying degrees of skill and not everyone considers the lower tier raids easy.

    Like I mentioned before they have reduced this in Korea so they are not doing this for the first time and they have better statistics and feedback than you would.
    Kyleran

  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 17,652
    edited March 2022
    kitarad said:
    kitarad said:




     There is no way these days a majority of players who are F2P are going to stick around to slavishly throw themselves at the content and get one shotted.

    I don't see how people cannot understand why a developer would change this. They naturally would want to retain the player base longer. 

    So if I am a developer, why do I need to add servers and change game mechanics to support players that will never pay a cent to me?  All I need are enough players so the ones paying have folks to interact with.

    The game already has a very, very low death penalty.. I have 4M silver already with nothing to really spend it on. Paying that 1000 silver repair bill from breaking my armor... well.. I could only afford to do that 4 thousand times...

    There is nothing I have encountered playing this game so far that is remotely hard.  It is almost entirely 100% solo friendly.. even running dungeons on "hard" is silly easy.

    Now maybe Tier 2 and 3 change that... but thats OK.

    I literally have 200 hours played on the game.  Now sure a big slice of that is sitting AFK to avoid queues for the first few weeks but I still have played this game a ton.  If there are a handful of "Raids" that end up requiring a coordinated group... well IMHO that would be a good thing.  As far as I know these are not 40 player Raids.  They are 4, some 8 person encounters. 

    My guild has 31 members.. ranging from the 200s to the 1100s. The general feedback from the higher folks is "Uhhh.. why would they nerf that?"





    What gave you the impression that F2P players do not spend money on the game. They do buy cosmetics and other items. Just because you are not taking a sub or whatever system they have in place for the sub alternative does not mean they are not spending on other things. 

    We are all F2P players and we all spend money in various ways. In fact many hardcore players often put up videos saying how they never spent a dime on the game. F2P is the model and we are all F2P players and some of us spend more on the monthly purchases in the game but no developer is going to alienate the chance that more players might spend money.

    I always think that people only look at things from their perspective like you just did. ''Game is so easy for me so it must be so for the others. Game is dead easy for my guild so a majority of the players are like me and my guild.'' They're not. Many people have varying degrees of skill and not everyone considers the lower tier raids easy.

    Like I mentioned before they have reduced this in Korea so they are not doing this for the first time and they have better statistics and feedback than you would.
    You seemed to infer that F2P players were some kind of single group in your prior post.  If we are ALL F2P players, as you now state, then why mentions F2P at all?  I am having a lot of trouble following your arguments here...

    So just to be crystal clear here.  98% of the content in this game is extraordinarily easy. This is not even debatable.  It may be mind-numbingly boring to run from point A to Point B to clap your hands and then Back to point A to /dance...  but you can literally solo "hard" mode dungeons with practically no danger up to Tier 2.. Maybe all the way to the end.. I just haven't been there.  There is also, practically no death penalty.

    So is the argument really that everyone has to be able to mindlessly solo, or random pug the remaining 2 percent of the game that requires a minimal amount of coordination?

    This certainly isn't going to ruin the game for me or anything like that, but it just seems silly to make changes less than a month after launch when the other 98% of the game can be run on ez-mode. 

    As for the Korean comparison...  do you have data that shows the strength of the encounters in each version?  Are they exactly the same?  Was the Western version easier at launch than the Korean version at launch?  Are the classes the same?  Without knowing any of that... it really doesn't tell much.

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  • kitaradkitarad Member LegendaryPosts: 8,177
    edited March 2022
    They have already implemented the changes. So have to see what the feedback is now. This is a fluid thing they can up or reduce the difficulty as they think is necessary.

    I have no wish to argue about the difficulty of the game because it is like talking to those people who come and post l2p on threads.

    Also this guy says the nerfs were because the fights were tedious. I don't have any idea myself since I am low level and have never tried these dungeons.


    [Deleted User]

  • FrodoFraginsFrodoFragins Member EpicPosts: 6,057
    edited March 2022
    I tested an abyssal before and after the patch both with pugs. One mistake no longer no longer caused you to die but two players still died on the first boss.  The second boss still caused a wipe on the first attempt  but that was due to poor execution and communication.  

    I don't have a strong opinion on abyssal dungeon nerfs.  Personally I just want to do puggable content that doesn't require voice communication.  So I mostly avoided abyssals before the patch.  I'm much more likely to do them and they do boost your power a bit and give some mats.

    I 100% support the guardian raid HP nerfs.  They were often just tedious especially as most players are new to the game and aren't going to have all of the secondary power boosts in place.  So burning them down became the issue rather than mechanics.  Nerfing that wipe mechanic  would make zero sense as it's super straight forward.

    I do strongly feel that T3 shouldn't even be in the game, let alone them adding ilvl 1370 content soon.  The Argos raid will cater  to like 0.001% of the playerbase.  I have to wonder if catch up mechanics are on the way to get more players at 1370.

     
    [Deleted User]
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 17,652

    I do strongly feel that T3 shouldn't even be in the game, let alone them adding ilvl 1370 content soon.  The Argos raid will cater  to like 0.001% of the playerbase.  I have to wonder if catch up mechanics are on the way to get more players at 1370.

     
    Not so sure...  I just hit tier 2 and had so many shards saved up that I got to 1000+ GS instantly...

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