Has CCP finally crossed a bridge too far?

Kyleran

CCP has long permitted EVE players to pay for advantages many would decry as P2W but for the most part such sales didn't really impact the gameplay of others so was accepted by most.

CCP recently decided to start selling mining ships with skill points outright as part of a new player package which has EVE community up in arms for multiple reasons.

1) while not the first time ships were sold in a package, previously they were always special hulls of little impact (almost cosmetic) and not available in the game.
2) the mining ship included this time is one which player industrialists regularly sell to other players new and old alike which is setting more of a bad precedent than than significantly cutting into anyone's profits

3) the package included the skill training points to fit the ship to a new character which was a first.

4) the EVE CSM (player elected governing group) views this as a line they thought would never be crossed based on previous "promises" CCP made, but there are new Pearl Abyss masters who are now in charge.
5) so what's next, first they directly sell mining packages, who is to say they won't keep selling more, including the larger ships such as sub capitals or bigger? Imagine if they included the skill point training to fly a Dreadnaught?

It wouldn't just be new players lining up to buy them and I promise and they'd pay big money for the opportunity.

But Kyle, isn't most of what you said already possible today in EVE? Yes, definitely, the difference being in the past the player base was part of the solution, such advantages had to be purchased from the players in game.

The line crossed is CCP magically  creating ships and skill points directly out of thin air then selling them directly to players.

Mining ships are actually a very benign starting point but we all know the slippery slope principle and it is very unlikely CCP won't be tempted into offering packages which really are increasingly "P2W" as time marches on.

I left EVE over 5 years ago so no impact to me, just wanted to add a post in the EVE forum as it looks like not many have been created in a very long time.

Cheers.

Scot

Well their progression into P2W seems icily slow, but there is only one direction cash shops go in and that's towards P2W. I am actually surprised they have held back from that for so long which is a testament to the studio.

OldKingLog

At least they're real ships and not just pictures of them, like some other games.

Scot

Realer?

OldKingLog

tzervo said:

OldKingLog said:

At least they're real ships and not just pictures of them, like some other games.

Heh... real...

Not a jab at your post, don't get me wrong, I just had this thought reading it about how words such as "real" change when put into context.

Well actually modeled and added to game, not just some concept art.

BLNX

The part about selling a ship that people regularly sell and buy kind of irked me. Why sell a ship that fosters community, socialization, and economy? At least make it some dumb special ship.

Sandmanjw

Scot said:

Realer?

Heh the thought of a digital picture of a ship that you can just look at, VS a digital ship that you can occupy with a digital toon and fly around a digital world.....

Where does real still have any meaning?

And to the OP. I am kind of of two minds.

If all the "Former" EVE players were to re-join, the servers would definitely crash:) Meaning that there are so very many more "former" players than active.

1st There has always been multitude of reasons players leave vs stay. That has got to drive the dev's nuts, seeing all that cash walk away. Eve has always been one of the few games/dev's that pushed the envelope of what is okay to sell/allow to be sold for real world cash. So, is this a continuation of that or as you say a step too far?

Eve has for the longest time had this sorta version of Pay to Win in it. But with how easy it is to scam and suicide kill those that did not really know how to play, players did not really care.

2nd, this is in one way, a double down of them doing pay to win, but also vastly increasing it as you said. Making both skills and ships for anyone to buy really crosses way more boundaries.  So, do people really think it will stop here? I do not. I think that they will continue down the pay to win and selling more and more things to try to keep the income going. 

Still think that they will open a PVE server before they pull the plug....still want to be around to hear the screaming that would bring

Kyleran

tzervo said:

OldKingLog said:

At least they're real ships and not just pictures of them, like some other games.

Heh... real...

Not a jab at your post, don't get me wrong, I just had this thought reading it about how words such as "real" change when put into context.

It's a different era, where virtual goods are considered "real" even if not actually tangible.

Actually been going on ever since the computer age and electronic transactions got underway as most of our currency doesn't exist in a physical form anymore.

BLNX

Star Citizen is the original seller of NFTs. "Hey, want a picture of this really cool starship? 3000 bucks."

Iselin

CCP and Eve have been on a P2W slippery slope for a long, long time. I'm actually surprised they haven't greased the slope more before now.

New owners want more $$$?

Kyleran

Iselin said:

CCP and Eve have been on a P2W slippery slope for a long, long time. I'm actually surprised they haven't greased the slope more before now.

New owners want more $$$?

That's what I'm thinking, Pearl Abyss needs to recover their $400M investment.

Also their core IP, BDO saw a significant downturn in revenues in 2021, even their mobile version while some other company's games were raking in the cash.

Strangely enough the Pearl Abys's annual report managed to show a net increase in revenues and profits despite declines by EVE / BDO from items not directly named which remain a mystery. (One article I read theorized it was in the area of crypto currency or NFT trading, but who can say)

WalkinGlenn

Meh, I'm ok with this. So some newb can be skilled up right away and start munching on some rock. 

Theocritus

WalkinGlenn said:

Meh, I'm ok with this. So some newb can be skilled up right away and start munching on some rock. 

Right I guess whatever it takes to bring in new players....I am sure after this many years it has to be harder and harder to lure new players

LynxJSA

Kyleran said:

The line crossed is CCP magically  creating ships and skill points directly out of thin air then selling them directly to players.

Do you have a link to this campaign? Interested in seeing what was done this time around that is causing a stir.  In 2015, we created Content Packs that we sold on Amazon and also on the EVE site when people upgraded their trial to a subscription.  

Digging thru old files, this is an example of one of the emails that we sent out about them: 

[Subject #1] 

EVE Content Packs

[Subject #2] 

Extend your trial with EVE Content Packs

[Preheader]

20 more days PLUS ships, skills, and supplies

[Header - line 1 25 chars, line 2 40 chars]

EVE CONTENT PACKS

GET YOU FURTHER, FASTER. 

[Body]

Greetings [CharacterName],

When it comes to gaming, this isn't your first rodeo. You have a path that you prefer, but you could probably use help getting started on it. EVE Online Content Packs pave the way with a 20-day trial extension and supplies to get you up and running. 

 

EXPLORER CONTENT PACK - Skills and supplies to scan, discover, and reveal the hidden riches of the universe. 

INDUSTRIALIST CONTENT PACK - Materials and blueprints to begin crafting much needed ships and ammo.

SKIRMISHER CONTENT PACK - Get right in the fight with a fully-equipped combat ship.

COLONIST CONTENT PACK - Command centers and supplies to harvest plentary resources. 

[Button: GET 20 MORE DAYS] < https://secure.eveonline.com/ContentPacks/ >

plus a full kit to kickstart your profession for only $4.99.

Jump right into the gameplay you came to play with an EVE Content Pack. 

 

Enjoy the journey!

 - The EVE Online Dev Team

*Only available for active trial accounts. Content Pack trial extension days can only be added once per trial. Additional packs will not add additional trial time.

Does their current campaign cross a line beyond this? 

Scorchien

There is no line for them to cross, as they have no competition for there demographic,  some players will piss and moan , then log into Eve...

Kyleran

LynxJSA said:

Kyleran said:

The line crossed is CCP magically  creating ships and skill points directly out of thin air then selling them directly to players.

Do you have a link to this campaign? Interested in seeing what was done this time around that is causing a stir.  In 2015, we created Content Packs that we sold on Amazon and also on the EVE site when people upgraded their trial to a subscription.  

Digging thru old files, this is an example of one of the emails that we sent out about them: 

[Subject #1] 

EVE Content Packs

[Subject #2] 

Extend your trial with EVE Content Packs

[Preheader]

20 more days PLUS ships, skills, and supplies

[Header - line 1 25 chars, line 2 40 chars]

EVE CONTENT PACKS

GET YOU FURTHER, FASTER. 

[Body]

Greetings [CharacterName],

When it comes to gaming, this isn't your first rodeo. You have a path that you prefer, but you could probably use help getting started on it. EVE Online Content Packs pave the way with a 20-day trial extension and supplies to get you up and running. 

 

EXPLORER CONTENT PACK - Skills and supplies to scan, discover, and reveal the hidden riches of the universe. 

INDUSTRIALIST CONTENT PACK - Materials and blueprints to begin crafting much needed ships and ammo.

SKIRMISHER CONTENT PACK - Get right in the fight with a fully-equipped combat ship.

COLONIST CONTENT PACK - Command centers and supplies to harvest plentary resources. 

[Button: GET 20 MORE DAYS] < https://secure.eveonline.com/ContentPacks/ >

plus a full kit to kickstart your profession for only $4.99.

Jump right into the gameplay you came to play with an EVE Content Pack. 

 

Enjoy the journey!

 - The EVE Online Dev Team

*Only available for active trial accounts. Content Pack trial extension days can only be added once per trial. Additional packs will not add additional trial time.

Does their current campaign cross a line beyond this? 

Was posted in the open letter the CSM posted. Does seem like more of a 2nd step.

"CCP has been selling a new player "destroyer" pack in some form for many years now (with the newest incarnation coming out in June 2021), and despite repeated statements of concern from the CSM, you continue to sell this today. Many players are unaware of this, because it's targeted at new players, and it's also less egregious because new players receive free, fitted destroyers as part of the rewards for engaging in the New Player Experience (NPE). 

Today, you announced a $25 sale that includes a fully fitted mining barge. While this is not the first time that the bright line against the selling of fitted ships has been crossed, it is certainly the most egregious example of it. 

Let me be clear - we do not support this sale, we cannot speak for all of our colleagues but we have not yet spoken with a single existing player who supports this sale, and we think it represents a serious misjudgment on the part of senior CCP leadership that the player base would accept such a sale. "

https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/tahi0l/an_open_letter_to_ccp_from_current_and_former/

LynxJSA

Interesting. I wonder if it's being done for the cash or for economy management. 

Theocritus

Scorchien said:

There is no line for them to cross, as they have no competition for there demographic,  some players will piss and moan , then log into Eve...

and pay their 5 subs.......

Kyleran

Scorchien said:

There is no line for them to cross, as they have no competition for there demographic,  some players will piss and moan , then log into Eve...

Well it appears sometimes "pissing and moaning" gets companies to walk back on a bad idea. Skip to the last paragraph for the TLDR summary.

"EVE Online Forums

An Open Letter to CCP from Current and Former CSM Members on the “Prospector Pack”

Communications Center

General Discussion

csm

1d

Capsuleers,

We hear your concerns about the Prospector Pack.

"As all EVE players know and remember, being a new pilot in New Eden has many challenges. Some players are lucky enough to make their way into player corporations quickly, where they are shown the ropes and supported by our veterans. For others, however, this path can be hard to find or feel intimidating, so they go it alone. We’ve spent much of 2020 and 2021 devoting resources to researching these players and trying to find ways to help them through early content barriers. Recently, we added a whole new chapter dedicated to mining in New Eden to the New Player Experience (NPE), as well as a new tutorial on Invention and T2 Production to our regularly updated EVE Academy.

Part of our experimentation in the new player journey has included the introduction of various packs and sales that give new players strong but limited options to jump forward and catch up with their peers. The destroyer-themed starter packs showed that there is not only an appetite for this kind of option but that these pilots transition into bona fide EVE players; they have aspirations, desire to interact with others, and contribute to EVE’s thriving ecosystem – they become tenured and impactful citizens of New Eden.

The prospector pack expands this concept to offer a more significant upgrade for young pilots in theme with our updated Mining NPE. We hear your worries about the continued escalation of this kind of sale and want to reassure you that our design will remain directed towards new players finding their footing in New Eden.

Economic impact and the integrity of the player economy are a top priority. We have limited this pack to one per account and are closely monitoring its effect on the player market. One of the topics for Fanfest is a new project that we’re in the middle of developing, that will transform these and any future packs - a paradigm where packs of this type will be supplied by players, ensuring that any ship we offer to new players through sales, will have origins from actual player work in New Eden: Made for new players, by veterans. This feature will also not only supply each ship from the player base but allow the community to influence which ships will be put in these packs. Additionally, the CSM will now have a quarterly meeting to discuss specifically these types of packs and other commerce topics. Not only to be in the room and have discussions on future packs but also to share feedback that the community desires.

On that note, we have removed the Prospector pack from secure.eveonline.com until this program is in place, intending to introduce a career-entry level option for mining in the future."

kitarad

On that note, we have removed the Prospector pack from secure.eveonline.com until this program is in place, intending to introduce a career-entry level option for mining in the future.

Even if they might not have any competition for their type of game, it seems they are scared to lose the players that they have.

Scorchien

tzervo said:

kitarad said:

On that note, we have removed the Prospector pack from secure.eveonline.com until this program is in place, intending to introduce a career-entry level option for mining in the future.

Even if they might not have any competition for their type of game, it seems they are scared to lose the players that they have.

Scorchien said:

There is no line for them to cross, as they have no competition for there demographic,  some players will piss and moan , then log into Eve...

Not a 100% substitute, but they can still lose players to Albion Online. The differentiation of the two games comes largely from the sci-fi setting, the combat system and EVE's gameplay loops being more complicated.

Otherwise the two games have lots of similarities (fool-loot PVP with security tiers, deep economy gameplay loops, large scale territory warfare between guilds etc.). People that mostly play EVE for those elements can still switch. Albion has a lot of former EVE players.

2010 -2014 was Eve heyday in concurrent players , 2015 to present has little change 20-35k peaks daily ..

  They have remained very stable in this regard the core isnt moving much ..

 Personally , i dont see Albion as a replacement to Eve .. sooo Apples and  jeeesh not even oranges for me ..

 Be more like Apples and Hotdogs .. but that is IMO

hebdus

I left some years ago, needing a style more "casual" , but things ending in "paying for others to play".. Plex was a gaming killer for me, as also a P2W. i try in alpha, very limited, to peek , but changes dont appeal.. I miss the good eve before plex and CSM, but is only my irrelevant opimion...

Unintended

The whole game needs a shake up, from the boring combat to the skill system that serves no purpose and hasn't done for a long time as all the veteran players have no use for it.... Basically it just becomes a put off for new players.

I say make combat real time and player skill based and have a character progression system based on skills you grind up and drop actively, not time based.

Scot

hebdus said:

I left some years ago, needing a style more "casual" , but things ending in "paying for others to play".. Plex was a gaming killer for me, as also a P2W. i try in alpha, very limited, to peek , but changes dont appeal.. I miss the good eve before plex and CSM, but is only my irrelevant opimion...

Welcome to the forums!

Kyleran

Unintended said:

The whole game needs a shake up, from the boring combat to the skill system that serves no purpose and hasn't done for a long time as all the veteran players have no use for it.... Basically it just becomes a put off for new players.

I say make combat real time and player skill based and have a character progression system based on skills you grind up and drop actively, not time based.

Sounds more like Star Citizen I think.

Slapshot1188

Kyleran said:

Unintended said:

The whole game needs a shake up, from the boring combat to the skill system that serves no purpose and hasn't done for a long time as all the veteran players have no use for it.... Basically it just becomes a put off for new players.

I say make combat real time and player skill based and have a character progression system based on skills you grind up and drop actively, not time based.

Sounds more like Star Citizen I think.

Well now that we have 2+ years hindsight.  What was the answer?  Did CCP go too far?  Or was it just 1 more degree for the frogs to not feel in the pot?