Scorch is like the "Fonz," physically unable to say those words.
Nahh , now if you would like to go thru my history you would see that to be false ..
But , i did tell ya Crowfall would flop
Legend of Aria .. would flop
CoE would flop
CU would flop
Albion online i was wrong ...
Shroud i was wrong ..
Pantheon i have no real opinion yet
Ashes of Creation i have no opinion of yet ..I would lean towards never launching ..
SC i dont think will succeed they way the money spent would speak to..
I wont get into single/multi player games , those are the big MMO crowd fund seems im about 60%
Now you go chew more catnip or dirty socks , or whatever it is you do at nite
Mainly drink heavy, watch porn and play MMO's.
I mean I would work on the project bike if the sun was still shining, but it's snowing where I am right now, so.. fuck that till spring really starts.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Pantheon has only recently completed ViNL (but not yet implemented it). The project has been a mammoth task for years and if it works as promised, it will revolutionise MMO development in Unity. Here is a good overview.
Under the Unreal Engine, to my knowledge, there are no advanced projects regarding network backends for MMORPGs (Ashes of Creation has not presented anything in this regard to my knowledge).
There are other game engines besides Unity and Unreal; also many mmos have used Unreal. Modifying these battletested engines would be trivial compared to trying to reinvent the wheel with a barethread dev team.
There are other game engines besides Unity and Unreal; also many mmos have used Unreal. Modifying these battletested engines would be trivial compared to trying to reinvent the wheel with a barethread dev team.
One of the biggest advantages of UE and Unity is their asset shop, as it can significantly shorten the development process. But for an MMORPG this advantage does not apply, as most of these assets are not really made for the specific "networking needs" of MMORPGs.
The internal "data formats" are also not necessarily designed for massive network use. As far as I know, Pantheon's ViNL is the first network library to address this issue (but only for Unity). Again, the following video is a great overview:
There are other game engines besides Unity and Unreal; also many mmos have used Unreal. Modifying these battletested engines would be trivial compared to trying to reinvent the wheel with a barethread dev team.
One of the biggest advantages of UE and Unity is their asset shop, as it can significantly shorten the development process.
I've not seen any recent MMOs using Unreal or Unity to successfully supply 500 vs 500 player fights on a single battlefield, but am open to anyone who can share specific examples of released MMORPGs where it's currently happening.
Allegedly that is the size of fights CU's engine is striving to support, jury is still out whether it really can in their current beta environment.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Whether or not Unreal or Unity can handle 1000's of players in one area or not is simply a matter of graphical capability. I would wager with the right optimizations they definitely can.
The real technical challenge is the server. Unreal engine handles 100 players per built in server out of the box. Technically you can increase it, this is just the number that seems to be battle tested.
How would you go about making it work with thousands? One way would be something similar to what Albion has done. Their servers are completely decoupled from the Unity engine. Unity is simply a graphical front end for their game. Can their server "engine" handle 1000 players in a single battlefield? I have no idea.
They, and all single server mmos, also use server clustering. This is the process of running multiple instances of a server. Each server handling a set number of clients, let's say 100 per server. If you have 10 servers that's 1000 players. If you make it so these servers send each other their data, as if the other servers were simply relays sending the data to their connected clients then you have 1000 players that can all see each other and each server is still only responsible for processing 100 each.
Server clustering isn't restricted to a completely custom server. You could take unreal servers and have them relay information about their own clients to each other providing that info to their respective clients. I've done this myself in small scale just playing around. I wasn't using anything special, just udp sockets between servers, but scaling it up is very doable.
That's not to say it's "easy" to do, but it's doable. It's been done.
We are talking about indie games, not AAA studios that employ hundreds of people to create assets.
Creating a good game engine from scratch is significantly more difficult than creating assets, many of which are not tied to a specific game engine anyway.
Case in point, CU has spent 10 years bumbling around trying to reinvent the wheel, only to find out that its square-shaped design doesn't roll quite as nicely as a the many circle-shaped wheels already available.
How would you go about making it work with thousands? One way would be something similar to what Albion has done. Their servers are completely decoupled from the Unity engine. Unity is simply a graphical front end for their game.
One thing first: the programmers who work on Camelot Unchained, Pantheon, Corwfall etc. are all experienced. Every "suggestion" or "idea" that we laymen put forward here has certainly already been considered and very probably rejected for reasons we can't even guess at.
A mature engine like Unity has the advantage of being equipped with many useful functions, such as the burst compiler, the sophisticated job system, things like addressables, etc. These simplify and speed up the development of games and are therefore invaluable to indie developers.
The problem specifically for MMORPGs, however, is that there are no accessible, pre-built network libraries for the Unity game engine (and I'm sure the same is true for UE) that are suitable for a large number of players in an MMORPG. Specifically: There is no network library that can handle the amount of entities and actions in an MMORPG for which data needs to be sent over the network.
The trick now is to redevelop the software layer that sits between the hardware and the more abstract Unity functions in such a way that, on the one hand, the advantages of Unity can be used and, at the same time, a massive amount of data can be received, processed and forwarded efficiently. This is the mega-task that Unity-based MMORPGs like Crowfall or Pantheon have to tackle: to design a network library or socket library that achieves the very specific performance goals of the respective MMORPG and ensures that the advantages of Unity can still be used.
On a side note: One of the main problems with open crowdfunded MMORPG development is that you are "forced" to develop in a milestone-oriented way. And if you focus heavily on delivering milestones instead of getting a "clean" codebase that is lean and easy to work with, it leads to an accumulation of technical debt that is piled up mainly because fast and, above all, presentable results are required. For this reason, one then also relies (as was the case with Pantheon) on generic bought-in solutions that quickly enable a proof-of-concept or a test environment, but only support a very small number of players.
And if these solutions are also designed in such a way that, for example, the code that controls the network is not cleanly separated from the part that controls the gameplay (because the purchased library requires it that way), then in the case of more serious problems, everything must first be painstakingly unravelled and worked through before major changes can be implemented.
Wow that's pretty interesting. I think Terry did the last news update as well that Mark usually does. Hopefully he is just tired and its not indicative of anything serious health related although it doesn't speak well for the game.
Wow that's pretty interesting. I think Terry did the last news update as well that Mark usually does. Hopefully he is just tired and its not indicative of anything serious health related although it doesn't speak well for the game.
If I understand Terry correctly, MJ now has COVID for the second time.
Wow that's pretty interesting. I think Terry did the last news update as well that Mark usually does. Hopefully he is just tired and its not indicative of anything serious health related although it doesn't speak well for the game.
If I understand Terry correctly, MJ now has COVID for the second time.
Must be really bad case of it when it prevents even logging into your own company's website for 3 months.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Yeap, that's pretty accurate. Mark just trying to hide from everyone now. All CSE have is that clown "Brian" who is supposedly a "Community Manager" but who can't provide any meaningful status updates to people who have been waiting for meaningful status updates since 2018:
And who can't even provide the reason for Mark's absence in a thread where people specifically wait for Mark's action (Mark is the only person who can do refunds).
I wouldn't be surprised if they shut the whole thing down and canned it tomorrow.
Ragnarok the other game is completely dead. MJ hasn't even logged into the site in 3 months. They are 9 years in and showing concept art. The writing is on the wall. What year 3 of people waiting for refunds?
90 day plan after 90 day plan and they haven't got jack to actually show and I've actually watched some of the streams MJ does hoping to see some actual gameplay. It's pathetic. This isn't happening and the sooner people realize it the better.
Any competent studio would actually have a playable game by now.
"You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
How would you go about making it work with thousands? One way would be something similar to what Albion has done. Their servers are completely decoupled from the Unity engine. Unity is simply a graphical front end for their game.
One thing first: the programmers who work on Camelot Unchained, Pantheon, Corwfall etc. are all experienced. Every "suggestion" or "idea" that we laymen put forward here has certainly already been considered and very probably rejected for reasons we can't even guess at.
A mature engine like Unity has the advantage of being equipped with many useful functions, such as the burst compiler, the sophisticated job system, things like addressables, etc. These simplify and speed up the development of games and are therefore invaluable to indie developers.
The problem specifically for MMORPGs, however, is that there are no accessible, pre-built network libraries for the Unity game engine (and I'm sure the same is true for UE) that are suitable for a large number of players in an MMORPG. Specifically: There is no network library that can handle the amount of entities and actions in an MMORPG for which data needs to be sent over the network.
The trick now is to redevelop the software layer that sits between the hardware and the more abstract Unity functions in such a way that, on the one hand, the advantages of Unity can be used and, at the same time, a massive amount of data can be received, processed and forwarded efficiently. This is the mega-task that Unity-based MMORPGs like Crowfall or Pantheon have to tackle: to design a network library or socket library that achieves the very specific performance goals of the respective MMORPG and ensures that the advantages of Unity can still be used.
On a side note: One of the main problems with open crowdfunded MMORPG development is that you are "forced" to develop in a milestone-oriented way. And if you focus heavily on delivering milestones instead of getting a "clean" codebase that is lean and easy to work with, it leads to an accumulation of technical debt that is piled up mainly because fast and, above all, presentable results are required. For this reason, one then also relies (as was the case with Pantheon) on generic bought-in solutions that quickly enable a proof-of-concept or a test environment, but only support a very small number of players.
And if these solutions are also designed in such a way that, for example, the code that controls the network is not cleanly separated from the part that controls the gameplay (because the purchased library requires it that way), then in the case of more serious problems, everything must first be painstakingly unravelled and worked through before major changes can be implemented.
I don't consider myself a laymen in this discussion, though I don't have as much experience as them, likely, I do have some. I also know that this is how spatialOS works. I also believe AOC was intending on using spatial until they realized the high costs and that they too could do something similar without using spatial.
If we all assumed something has been tried and failed we would never innovate.
I don't consider myself a laymen in this discussion, though I don't have as much experience as them, likely, I do have some. I also know that this is how spatialOS works. I also believe AOC was intending on using spatial until they realized the high costs and that they too could do something similar without using spatial.
I've said in another comment that, "SpatialOS was almost unusable and did not work well. The architecture was clunky and the scalability was not as good as promised."
I don't consider myself a laymen in this discussion, though I don't have as much experience as them, likely, I do have some. I also know that this is how spatialOS works. I also believe AOC was intending on using spatial until they realized the high costs and that they too could do something similar without using spatial.
I've said in another comment that, "SpatialOS was almost unusable and did not work well. The architecture was clunky and the scalability was not as good as promised."
Spatial is buggy, therefore the entire concept is useless.
That's not what I said.
SpatialOS itself was clunky and did not work well.
I would rate the idea behind SpatialOS like the idea of cryptocurrency: theoretically interesting, but practically useless. A solution that is looking for its problem.
Comments
I mean I would work on the project bike if the sun was still shining, but it's snowing where I am right now, so.. fuck that till spring really starts.
There are other game engines besides Unity and Unreal; also many mmos have used Unreal. Modifying these battletested engines would be trivial compared to trying to reinvent the wheel with a barethread dev team.
Allegedly that is the size of fights CU's engine is striving to support, jury is still out whether it really can in their current beta environment.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
The real technical challenge is the server. Unreal engine handles 100 players per built in server out of the box. Technically you can increase it, this is just the number that seems to be battle tested.
How would you go about making it work with thousands? One way would be something similar to what Albion has done. Their servers are completely decoupled from the Unity engine. Unity is simply a graphical front end for their game. Can their server "engine" handle 1000 players in a single battlefield? I have no idea.
They, and all single server mmos, also use server clustering. This is the process of running multiple instances of a server. Each server handling a set number of clients, let's say 100 per server. If you have 10 servers that's 1000 players. If you make it so these servers send each other their data, as if the other servers were simply relays sending the data to their connected clients then you have 1000 players that can all see each other and each server is still only responsible for processing 100 each.
Server clustering isn't restricted to a completely custom server. You could take unreal servers and have them relay information about their own clients to each other providing that info to their respective clients. I've done this myself in small scale just playing around. I wasn't using anything special, just udp sockets between servers, but scaling it up is very doable.
That's not to say it's "easy" to do, but it's doable. It's been done.
Case in point, CU has spent 10 years bumbling around trying to reinvent the wheel, only to find out that its square-shaped design doesn't roll quite as nicely as a the many circle-shaped wheels already available.
The trick now is to redevelop the software layer that sits between the hardware and the more abstract Unity functions in such a way that, on the one hand, the advantages of Unity can be used and, at the same time, a massive amount of data can be received, processed and forwarded efficiently. This is the mega-task that Unity-based MMORPGs like Crowfall or Pantheon have to tackle: to design a network library or socket library that achieves the very specific performance goals of the respective MMORPG and ensures that the advantages of Unity can still be used.
On a side note: One of the main problems with open crowdfunded MMORPG development is that you are "forced" to develop in a milestone-oriented way. And if you focus heavily on delivering milestones instead of getting a "clean" codebase that is lean and easy to work with, it leads to an accumulation of technical debt that is piled up mainly because fast and, above all, presentable results are required. For this reason, one then also relies (as was the case with Pantheon) on generic bought-in solutions that quickly enable a proof-of-concept or a test environment, but only support a very small number of players.
And if these solutions are also designed in such a way that, for example, the code that controls the network is not cleanly separated from the part that controls the gameplay (because the purchased library requires it that way), then in the case of more serious problems, everything must first be painstakingly unravelled and worked through before major changes can be implemented.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
And who can't even provide the reason for Mark's absence in a thread where people specifically wait for Mark's action (Mark is the only person who can do refunds).
Ragnarok the other game is completely dead. MJ hasn't even logged into the site in 3 months. They are 9 years in and showing concept art. The writing is on the wall. What year 3 of people waiting for refunds?
90 day plan after 90 day plan and they haven't got jack to actually show and I've actually watched some of the streams MJ does hoping to see some actual gameplay. It's pathetic. This isn't happening and the sooner people realize it the better.
Any competent studio would actually have a playable game by now.
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/If we all assumed something has been tried and failed we would never innovate.
To create anything new, you first have to examine what's already been done. And I'm sure that the devs of CU, Pantheon, Crowfall, etc. have done that.
I'll let you be.