Do you know what I find instinctively wrong about this? In the past I may have done a particular dungeon a hundred times and never gotten the drop I wanted. However every time I went in I was with a group and we were talking (in Everquest) laughing having fun and just generally playing the game.
Now people just swipe the credit card and call it playing. Of course I get that this is all about the mobile game philosophy and that we have already lost all the arguments a long time ago simply because of the colossal amount of money these games make.
What really grinds my gears is the people who continue to support and spend money on these games. How do you fight these blind and addictive followers and how can things improve?
I see people saying it's not their problem that some fool is spending their money in the thousands too I might add because they are not part of the problem. Guess what you in naivete have forgotten that you pay taxes and also much of the money spent in propping the families of these idiots is actually coming out of your pocket. We all lose, can't you see that?
There is a profound disconnect here and I blame the people supporting this cancer in our gaming.
The whales need F2P players - both as admirers (they need applause for buying whatever high status that particular game offers) and to let them do group content.
You obviously don't understand how Diablo's pay 2 win works. No "whale" will group with a F2P player, it will cripple them seriously to the point of stopping them being able to do the content they are aiming for.
Respect, walk, what did you say? Respect, walk Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me? - PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
Do you know what I find instinctively wrong about this? In the past I may have done a particular dungeon a hundred times and never gotten the drop I wanted. However every time I went in I was with a group and we were talking (in Everquest) laughing having fun and just generally playing the game.
Now people just swipe the credit card and call it playing. Of course I get that this is all about the mobile game philosophy and that we have already lost all the arguments a long time ago simply because of the colossal amount of money these games make.
What really grinds my gears is the people who continue to support and spend money on these games. How do you fight these blind and addictive followers and how can things improve?
I see people saying it's not their problem that some fool is spending their money in the thousands too I might add because they are not part of the problem. Guess what you in naivete have forgotten that you pay taxes and also much of the money spent in propping the families of these idiots is actually coming out of your pocket. We all lose, can't you see that?
There is a profound disconnect here and I blame the people supporting this cancer in our gaming.
Awesome post. 200% agreed. But that's not exactly new, sadly. Even back then in Everquest, you had elitism. The "pay2win" model just made it exponentially worse.
Respect, walk, what did you say? Respect, walk Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me? - PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
I think subscription games should have to publish their drop rates as well. While nowhere near the same level of jank, keeping people strung along in perpetual subscription with a micro chance at a drop is also predatory and hostile.
I would have hoped most MMORPGs would have included a system by which to alleviate this, instead.
For instance: each time you don't get a boss drop after participating, your character receives a token of some sort (however you want to couch that in-game). A certain number of tokens can be traded/refined/what have you inti a boss drop. Added on top of the drops, it means you progress even if your luck sucks.
Considering it usually gets data farmed somehow anyways, I don't see why including drop chances for bosses is a bad idea. It didn't ruin WoW classic for me to have chances shown in an add-on. I had to search that info out to see it, so it wasn't disruptive.
I think subscription games should have to publish their drop rates as well. While nowhere near the same level of jank, keeping people strung along in perpetual subscription with a micro chance at a drop is also predatory and hostile.
Not a bad point. For "big" games like WoW, you end having those stats on third party websites which collect the drops.
Respect, walk, what did you say? Respect, walk Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me? - PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
If you are in the game, as a whale, a dolphin or a remora (*) you are playing your part in the aquarium that is DI. Could the game exist without one of these three, maybe the dolphins as they were late comers as far as I can work out?
* A remora is a fish that hangs on to other fish for a free ride. I kid you not, they are not parasitic just after the ride and maybe protection.
Nonsense. A "pay2win" game can perfectly exists without your "remora". It only needs those who are paying. The others are so far behind anyway that the pay to winners don't play with them.
It depends on the game. Some are more population dependent than others. The rich will lose interest if there are not enough others around to do things with.
If you are in the game, as a whale, a dolphin or a remora (*) you are playing your part in the aquarium that is DI. Could the game exist without one of these three, maybe the dolphins as they were late comers as far as I can work out?
* A remora is a fish that hangs on to other fish for a free ride. I kid you not, they are not parasitic just after the ride and maybe protection.
Nonsense. A "pay2win" game can perfectly exists without your "remora". It only needs those who are paying. The others are so far behind anyway that the pay to winners don't play with them.
It depends on the game. Some are more population dependent than others. The rich will lose interest if there are not enough others around to do things with.
There's absolutely no point in playing with the "poor" in Diablo Immortal.
Respect, walk, what did you say? Respect, walk Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me? - PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
If you are in the game, as a whale, a dolphin or a remora (*) you are playing your part in the aquarium that is DI. Could the game exist without one of these three, maybe the dolphins as they were late comers as far as I can work out?
* A remora is a fish that hangs on to other fish for a free ride. I kid you not, they are not parasitic just after the ride and maybe protection.
Nonsense. A "pay2win" game can perfectly exists without your "remora". It only needs those who are paying. The others are so far behind anyway that the pay to winners don't play with them.
It depends on the game. Some are more population dependent than others. The rich will lose interest if there are not enough others around to do things with.
There's absolutely no point in playing with the "poor" in Diablo Immortal.
They don't seem to care for Elder Rift runs though. I've run many in a party with my one measly regular crest with people using 10 legendary ones. It actually surprises me just how often I run into those 10 crest whales.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
If you are in the game, as a whale, a dolphin or a remora (*) you are playing your part in the aquarium that is DI. Could the game exist without one of these three, maybe the dolphins as they were late comers as far as I can work out?
* A remora is a fish that hangs on to other fish for a free ride. I kid you not, they are not parasitic just after the ride and maybe protection.
Nonsense. A "pay2win" game can perfectly exists without your "remora". It only needs those who are paying. The others are so far behind anyway that the pay to winners don't play with them.
It depends on the game. Some are more population dependent than others. The rich will lose interest if there are not enough others around to do things with.
There's absolutely no point in playing with the "poor" in Diablo Immortal.
They don't seem to care for Elder Rift runs though. I've run many in a party with my one measly regular crest with people using 10 legendary ones. It actually surprises me just how often I run into those 10 crest whales.
Maybe they would care if they really knew how it worked and what a disadvantage they're at. After many of you posting how confusing and convoluted the various systems are it wouldn't surprise me if they just didn't know any better. But then again I don't play so maybe they do know and just don't care.
I don't know the details of how what others bring to a group affects those whales. I do know that by grouping I get more of those do-hickeys I need to craft a legendary gem with the possibility of it being 5 stars once every 9 days or so.
But those guys with their 10 legendary crests are just using the rift as their requirement to open their 10 loot boxes. I don't even know why they're grouping for their $35 CDN rift run unless it's just because the pre-loot foreplay is even quicker in a group.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
I have addicted gamblers in my family and I despise it to its very core. I will never support a game that uses this vile technique to ensnare players.
I can play this game probably and never use the gambling aspects but I have to admit many games have gambling to some extent but this game is so horrible in this aspect I have to on principle (even though I lack it most times) shun it.
My dad likes to have a bet on the horses, but he has never gone overboard, in fact I first heard how silly some people were in their betting from him. They could lose the equivalent of over a £1000 to 1500 (in today's money) in one day at the races and not bat an eyelid. That said my dad who would spend about £50 at the races was still "flushing it down the toilet" according to my mum.
My uncle gambled on horses too. Except being male his sisters were forced to take out loans because my grandmother treasured her sons over her useless daughters. The poor things who did nothing wrong were saddled with debts thanks to this good for nothing asshole.
The unfortunate reality of the Asian family where the sons can do no wrong and the daughters pay for the sins of the sons.
"...a lot like herding cats when there's cohesive teams of individuals working together to poke holes in your cat stable's walls and coax the cats out using treats."
You outdid yourself with that analogy. Well deserved awesome from me
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
The whales need F2P players - both as admirers (they need applause for buying whatever high status that particular game offers) and to let them do group content.
You obviously don't understand how Diablo's pay 2 win works. No "whale" will group with a F2P player, it will cripple them seriously to the point of stopping them being able to do the content they are aiming for.
Like many on here I have not played it, that does not mean we can't look at videos and work out what is going on from what other posters say who have played. You do like to perpetuate this myth that you have to play a game to understand it.
I can't see that you are seriously suggesting that the whales are just playing solo, so that argument stands. The game has clans which compete in PvP, something which I don't think we have talked about on here, but I know about it, that must astonish you right?
Another thing is the game has we have not talked about is hubs, like Westmarch where all players can meet up just like the posters above were talking about.
So that creates a community where whales need to feed on dolphins who need to feed on remora. By feed depending on the game that means fight, show off, lead etc.
You are using your own experience to extrapolate out to what must be happening for all the F2P players. Now that's a fair thing to do up to a point, but you do realise your own experience is not that of every f2p player?
how many tier 5 gem are required to max a character?
I dont' know why bilzzard went this far. I play pokemon go, a mobile game, and I never felt the cash shop is that bad.
6 max.
6 BIS 5/5 gems is just the beginning There's still Awakening and Resonance to go through after that (for roughly 2-3 times more power) which require many more gems, to actually "max the character."
System is explained starting at 8:15
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
It seemed, with my limit understanding, diablo immortal seemed far worse in terms of pay 2 win than most of the top grossing mobile games.
In most gatcha games or card games you get new heros or new deck. But that dont' actually make you more powerful. And it usually don't take much to maximize and compete. You could compete just spending 50$ a month.
I think diablo immortal targeting whales also means dolphins just give up and stop paying them money. If people dont' think they can compete paying 50$ a month, they dont' bother paying 50$ a month.
I think diablo immortal targeting whales also means dolphins just give up and stop paying them money. If people dont' think they can compete paying 50$ a month, they dont' bother paying 50$ a month.
I've said pretty well he same in another thread. It's not just that the F2P players are disadvantaged, it's that the dolphins also are.
Time will tell how this plays out but I don't see a long term future for this game unless they make some serious changes.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
I think subscription games should have to publish their drop rates as well. While nowhere near the same level of jank, keeping people strung along in perpetual subscription with a micro chance at a drop is also predatory and hostile.
Although that is wishful thinking, many developers of older mmorpgs (ultima, earlier days of wow and even ffxi), admitted that low drop rates were initially used to stagger content, at least back then. So I doubt they would be forced to reveal actual drop rates. Especially too since you can't exactly 'directly' pay for items in those games with real money. Even D:I's 'lootboxes' (aka elder rifts) might be able to avoid general regulations since you need to play to get the item.
beat a large whale clan because they got careless.
Nice to see that the old standard refuge of dolphins in P2Win games "But we can beat the wales 'cause we have skill!" is alive and well.
Enjoy it while it lasts. You'll soon enough run into wales with enough skill to one-shot you.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
beat a large whale clan because they got careless.
Nice to see that the old standard refuge of dolphins in P2Win games "But we can beat the wales 'cause we have skill!" is alive and well.
Enjoy it while it lasts. You'll soon enough run into wales with enough skill to one-shot you.
Can you not take 1 sentence to be snarky with. I didn't mention anything about our skill, I said they got careless. Also our clan is Minnow at best, most are F2P. We don't even have dolphins. I'm well aware of the wall we will eventually hit, I also know that there is at least 2 clans on the server we have 0 chance of defeating if they can use a braincell.
I'm just pointing out, the industry is a lot lot worse than what we see in Diablo Immortal. This isn't a justification that D:I's systems are fine just that this is the norm not the outlier.
I'll stop when you stop hand waving stuff away explicitly or implicitly
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
beat a large whale clan because they got careless.
Nice to see that the old standard refuge of dolphins in P2Win games "But we can beat the wales 'cause we have skill!" is alive and well.
Enjoy it while it lasts. You'll soon enough run into wales with enough skill to one-shot you.
Can you not take 1 sentence to be snarky with. I didn't mention anything about our skill, I said they got careless. Also our clan is Minnow at best, most are F2P. We don't even have dolphins. I'm well aware of the wall we will eventually hit, I also know that there is at least 2 clans on the server we have 0 chance of defeating if they can use a braincell.
I'm just pointing out, the industry is a lot lot worse than what we see in Diablo Immortal. This isn't a justification that D:I's systems are fine just that this is the norm not the outlier.
I'll stop when you stop hand waving stuff away explicitly or implicitly
What am I waving away? The guy thought this is the worst the industry has to offer. I'm saying there is a lot worse and in greater frequency.
When we're talking about Blizzard, not Joe Schmoe Inc., doing it with one of their iconic franchises, and the response is "Guys, guys, settle down, this is not even as bad as mobile games get," that is a form of hand waving, is it not?
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Comments
Now people just swipe the credit card and call it playing. Of course I get that this is all about the mobile game philosophy and that we have already lost all the arguments a long time ago simply because of the colossal amount of money these games make.
What really grinds my gears is the people who continue to support and spend money on these games. How do you fight these blind and addictive followers and how can things improve?
I see people saying it's not their problem that some fool is spending their money in the thousands too I might add because they are not part of the problem. Guess what you in naivete have forgotten that you pay taxes and also much of the money spent in propping the families of these idiots is actually coming out of your pocket. We all lose, can't you see that?
There is a profound disconnect here and I blame the people supporting this cancer in our gaming.
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
Awesome post. 200% agreed.
But that's not exactly new, sadly. Even back then in Everquest, you had elitism. The "pay2win" model just made it exponentially worse.
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
For instance: each time you don't get a boss drop after participating, your character receives a token of some sort (however you want to couch that in-game). A certain number of tokens can be traded/refined/what have you inti a boss drop. Added on top of the drops, it means you progress even if your luck sucks.
Considering it usually gets data farmed somehow anyways, I don't see why including drop chances for bosses is a bad idea. It didn't ruin WoW classic for me to have chances shown in an add-on. I had to search that info out to see it, so it wasn't disruptive.
Not a bad point. For "big" games like WoW, you end having those stats on third party websites which collect the drops.
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
It depends on the game. Some are more population dependent than others. The rich will lose interest if there are not enough others around to do things with.
There's absolutely no point in playing with the "poor" in Diablo Immortal.
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
But those guys with their 10 legendary crests are just using the rift as their requirement to open their 10 loot boxes. I don't even know why they're grouping for their $35 CDN rift run unless it's just because the pre-loot foreplay is even quicker in a group.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
The unfortunate reality of the Asian family where the sons can do no wrong and the daughters pay for the sins of the sons.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I dont' know why bilzzard went this far. I play pokemon go, a mobile game, and I never felt the cash shop is that bad.
https://biturl.top/rU7bY3
Beyond the shadows there's always light
https://biturl.top/rU7bY3
Beyond the shadows there's always light
I can't see that you are seriously suggesting that the whales are just playing solo, so that argument stands. The game has clans which compete in PvP, something which I don't think we have talked about on here, but I know about it, that must astonish you right?
Another thing is the game has we have not talked about is hubs, like Westmarch where all players can meet up just like the posters above were talking about.
So that creates a community where whales need to feed on dolphins who need to feed on remora. By feed depending on the game that means fight, show off, lead etc.
You are using your own experience to extrapolate out to what must be happening for all the F2P players. Now that's a fair thing to do up to a point, but you do realise your own experience is not that of every f2p player?
System is explained starting at 8:15
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
In most gatcha games or card games you get new heros or new deck. But that dont' actually make you more powerful. And it usually don't take much to maximize and compete. You could compete just spending 50$ a month.
I think diablo immortal targeting whales also means dolphins just give up and stop paying them money. If people dont' think they can compete paying 50$ a month, they dont' bother paying 50$ a month.
Time will tell how this plays out but I don't see a long term future for this game unless they make some serious changes.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Although that is wishful thinking, many developers of older mmorpgs (ultima, earlier days of wow and even ffxi), admitted that low drop rates were initially used to stagger content, at least back then. So I doubt they would be forced to reveal actual drop rates. Especially too since you can't exactly 'directly' pay for items in those games with real money. Even D:I's 'lootboxes' (aka elder rifts) might be able to avoid general regulations since you need to play to get the item.
Enjoy it while it lasts. You'll soon enough run into wales with enough skill to one-shot you.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED