I think the answer is quite simple. All MMORPG worlds aren't dynamic enough. If you had a real ecosystem, the game could generate quests depending on the actual situation of each part of the world. You'd basically never encounter the same situation twice.
Imagine a village having a wolf problem. Adventurers come and exterminate most wolves. A few weeks later, they come back, and because of the lack of predators, they now have an infestation of rabbits. And that's just a very simple example.
While I am not sure how well a real ecosystem would work in a game world filled with a bunch of murder hobo's (read some dev blogs from UO about how badly this failed)
But I love the idea of ambiance having meaning.
I would love for seasons, but I would settle for, say something like the various environments in different zones to have meaning.
To use.. yet another example from GW2.. fucking hell this game sucked me in harder than a gas powered Dyson ball vacuum.
Anyway, using GW2 as an example, you have various zones, like the Shiverpeaks, which are snow covered Nordic style mountain ranges, and on the flip side of this, you have Ascalon which is mainly a hot desert region.
Then you have the Crystal Deserts, the Heart of Magumma which is a deep topical jungle like setting.
and through all this.. you are wearing the exact same gear.
Personally, I would love the if idea that the setting would affect what gear you could wear, like needing cold weather gear to endure the lands in the Shiverpeaks, and needing something more lightweight and moisture wicking to deal with the deserts.
Just the idea that the ambient environment mattered, would be stupid cool!
And don't even get me started on things like swimming in full plate armor, which makes no sense at all. I really think games should make it so that player need to consider what they are wearing for where they are. I like what GW2 has done, but I think it could be expanded upon, to make it so much better.
Anyway, just that kind of dynamic would totally change how players played an MMO, where you needed gear for different environments.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
While I am not sure how well a real ecosystem would work in a game world filled with a bunch of murder hobo's (read some dev blogs from UO about how badly this failed)
But I love the idea of ambiance having meaning.
This is where you realize that combat in most games, being trivial and the most common way to interact with the world, needs to be more dangerous.
Then, it implies that for people to have fun in the games, there is combat but not just combat.
While I am not sure how well a real ecosystem would work in a game world filled with a bunch of murder hobo's (read some dev blogs from UO about how badly this failed)
But I love the idea of ambiance having meaning.
This is where you realize that combat in most games, being trivial and the most common way to interact with the world, needs to be more dangerous.
Then, it implies that for people to have fun in the games, there is combat but not just combat.
Ah yes, Feng Shui, I mean Sun Tzu , nahh.. legit, I have no idea what you are saying.
Can you explain this better.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
While I am not sure how well a real ecosystem would work in a game world filled with a bunch of murder hobo's (read some dev blogs from UO about how badly this failed)
But I love the idea of ambiance having meaning.
This is where you realize that combat in most games, being trivial and the most common way to interact with the world, needs to be more dangerous.
Then, it implies that for people to have fun in the games, there is combat but not just combat.
Ah yes, Feng Shui, I mean Sun Tzu , nahh.. legit, I have no idea what you are saying.
Can you explain this better.
Yes.
What do we do in most games? We kill stuff for fun. Because, yes combat is fun (or supposed to be).
In MMOs this is usually the main way to interact with the world. We kill stuff and in return we get XP, loot, materials, and even gold.
Breathing in a MMO means usually: I see, I kill, I loot.
So devs introduced some other activites, like trading and crafting and even sometimes life-skilling, but it doesn't change the fact that the main activity is killing.
For the slaughter to be successful, it implies the combat has to be largely in favor of the players (killing any feeling of epicness in the process).
And this is exactly what happened in the UO example you mentioned. They had a nice ecosystem, and then they unleashed a horde of mass-murderers with disastrous consequences.
But what if combat would actually be really dangerous? Like scary?
Well people would still fight but only when it is really necessary, and most likely your ecosystem would be able to function.
However, since combat would suddenly not be the main source of enjoyment, then the devs would have to implement other ways to have fun in this breathing/living world or the game would die quickly.
There are other ways to make the world more dynamic. Like UO which had treasure maps. Very simple to implement. I'm appalled no more modern game has those. Well, ESO has them, kinda. But not exactly the same, and there's a finished number, they are not generated.
I've never seen another MMORPG where the game opened the door for Player Initiatives like "The Fishing Council of Britannia", and all the other things Players did on their own.
See EVE.
Really? I never read anything on this. But then Eve isn't what I want in an MMORPG, although it seems like one of the all-time greats to me. Out of curiosity, can you give a brief rundown?
Well, since EVE is famously known for being challenging for newcomers there are a multitude of player run training corporation's, with of perhaps the most famous and long running being EVE University. I would have linked their website, but appears they are currently under a DDOS attack because, you know, EVE.
"2022EVE University is a corporation in EVE Online and a member of the Ivy League Alliance. We are a neutral, non-profit training corporation in New Eden. Founded in March of 2004 by Morning Maniac, EVE University has taught over 25,000 pilots and continues to take new pilots and train them in all aspects of EVE Online."
Then there's the long running and infamous New World Order of High Sec, aka "The Code" keeping the universe "safe" from unsanctioned carebear miners. (These folks take miner griefing into a whole new level.)
"Without rules, there is no such thing as freedom. By enforcing a system of just laws, I give the miners liberation from their own worst instincts. And through this process, the miners can be molded into better people, the kind worthy of joining the new community of EVE. I'm no idealist to believe, firmly, in the integrity of the Code and the New Order of Highsec. It's no ideal to me: It is a living, working reality."
Now, EVE has often had out of game casinos, where players gambled ISK for fun and profit. Back in 2016 one of these casinos bankrolled World War Bee, aka the Casino Wars with the goal of exterminating the notorious Goonswarm Alliance (of 4 Chan fame).
Now while the war ended years ago, it resulted in the casino owners in game account was banished and CCP uncharacteristically clamping down hard on casinos in general.
Just another day in EVE, however those events reverberated until four years later EVE saw a former Goon fleet commander who had lost his job come back at his former boss for vengeance in 2020.
Wormholes in EVE close after a certain period of time passes or a certain amount of ship mass fly through.
As some wormhole system types are much more desirable than others players often push mass through to close a "bad" hole in the hopes of getting a better one.
I was once a member of a huge worm hole corp who figured out the "pattern" behind the wormhole generation mechanic so they could not only generate at will very desirable WH systems for their use, but also generate "crap" wormhole systems for other "competitors."
Took CCP a while to find out, and they did issue a cease and desist order but did not fix it because they didn't have a better way.
Of course the Corp didn't desist, so I left before the inevitable ban hammer came down on the worst offenders and the corp was forced to disolve.
So many stories to be told, all driven by players utilizing tools within and outside the game to create a "true" universe and sandbox experience.
Organizations rise and fall for PVP such as Red vs Blue, faction war alliances battle for control of low Sec space, countless pirate and mercenary organizations.
Back in the day wardec group could be hired to torment other players and groups in EVE. (I once spent some ISK to remove some competitors from a dead end star system in Amarr space I considered "mine.")
I once joined a group of like minded pilots who kept each other company as they "explored" as many star systems in EVE as they could and sometimes help arrange their safe passage through the space controlled by the Alliance I was in. (Also proved to be a decent source of Intel at times, if you could befriend them enough to break their neutrality oath)
That's the stuff that "worlds" are made of.
UO had some very secretive (at least to me) groups. They were known, but the things they did weren't very public. Only the "connected" seemed to know details until some came out due to Dev actions to curtail the.
An example was certain guilds that figured out how to kill NPC Guards, uber powerful guards to prevent crime in guard zones. They had a powerful sword that did lightning damage, and that was what these players were after and got by killing these guards. The UO Devs wanted to maintain this sort of world, where if you can do it, it was allowed. But they couldn't allow these Guard's Swords in play, so they told them they could keep them as long as they didn't use them. But they got into a big fight, and went and got their Guard Swords to get revenge, and the Devs stepped in and took the swords away. (I'm not sure if they actually did or if that was just PR, or if they got them all.)
I think there may well be stories buried deep that we may never know, but that may be just a desire for such deep worlds.
As a vanilla wow raider there just weren't that many ways to make money which forced many raiders to grind spots for runecloth or do RMT. Dailies were just a way to limit that sort of grinding and just have people to do some 30-60 minute quick money grind.
It wasn't until sunwell patch (which tbc classic is in now) that dailies became such a huge part of everyone's game, while it still existed before that not many did them, Blizzard noticed how many people did them and just made more and more of it, and tied more and more items to it.
The problem was that the creation of so much money created a gold inflation in the game.
In itself its mostly low effort content to keep people playing the game inbetween proper content patches.
Iselin: And the next person who says "but it's a business, they need to make money" can just go fuck yourself.
While I am not sure how well a real ecosystem would work in a game world filled with a bunch of murder hobo's (read some dev blogs from UO about how badly this failed)
But I love the idea of ambiance having meaning.
This is where you realize that combat in most games, being trivial and the most common way to interact with the world, needs to be more dangerous.
Then, it implies that for people to have fun in the games, there is combat but not just combat.
Ah yes, Feng Shui, I mean Sun Tzu , nahh.. legit, I have no idea what you are saying.
Can you explain this better.
Yes.
What do we do in most games? We kill stuff for fun. Because, yes combat is fun (or supposed to be).
In MMOs this is usually the main way to interact with the world. We kill stuff and in return we get XP, loot, materials, and even gold.
Breathing in a MMO means usually: I see, I kill, I loot.
So devs introduced some other activites, like trading and crafting and even sometimes life-skilling, but it doesn't change the fact that the main activity is killing.
For the slaughter to be successful, it implies the combat has to be largely in favor of the players (killing any feeling of epicness in the process).
And this is exactly what happened in the UO example you mentioned. They had a nice ecosystem, and then they unleashed a horde of mass-murderers with disastrous consequences.
But what if combat would actually be really dangerous? Like scary?
Well people would still fight but only when it is really necessary, and most likely your ecosystem would be able to function.
However, since combat would suddenly not be the main source of enjoyment, then the devs would have to implement other ways to have fun in this breathing/living world or the game would die quickly.
Very good points. But UO's ecosystem had a couple of huge issues. While the world was overrun by "a horde of mass-murderers" (players working up skills killing anything that moved), a big problem was that the game world was pretty small. But this is a problem, no matter what. Game worlds need to be much bigger for the numbers of players, I think.
Another issue that UO had was that their critters moved slowly, their run speed was half that of Player's. Also, prey types didn't just run at first sight. They'd attack if you attacked them. So critters were basically ducks in a shooting gallery.
In a nutshell, larger worlds and better basic AI can fix a lot of problems with ecosystems.
There are other ways to make the world more dynamic. Like UO which had treasure maps. Very simple to implement. I'm appalled no more modern game has those. Well, ESO has them, kinda. But not exactly the same, and there's a finished number, they are not generated.
I've never seen another MMORPG where the game opened the door for Player Initiatives like "The Fishing Council of Britannia", and all the other things Players did on their own.
See EVE.
There's fishing in EvE ? What do you catch, space whales ?
Respect, walk, what did you say? Respect, walk Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me? - PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
While I am not sure how well a real ecosystem would work in a game world filled with a bunch of murder hobo's (read some dev blogs from UO about how badly this failed)
But I love the idea of ambiance having meaning.
This is where you realize that combat in most games, being trivial and the most common way to interact with the world, needs to be more dangerous.
Then, it implies that for people to have fun in the games, there is combat but not just combat.
Ah yes, Feng Shui, I mean Sun Tzu , nahh.. legit, I have no idea what you are saying.
Can you explain this better.
Yes.
What do we do in most games? We kill stuff for fun. Because, yes combat is fun (or supposed to be).
In MMOs this is usually the main way to interact with the world. We kill stuff and in return we get XP, loot, materials, and even gold.
Breathing in a MMO means usually: I see, I kill, I loot.
So devs introduced some other activites, like trading and crafting and even sometimes life-skilling, but it doesn't change the fact that the main activity is killing.
For the slaughter to be successful, it implies the combat has to be largely in favor of the players (killing any feeling of epicness in the process).
And this is exactly what happened in the UO example you mentioned. They had a nice ecosystem, and then they unleashed a horde of mass-murderers with disastrous consequences.
But what if combat would actually be really dangerous? Like scary?
Well people would still fight but only when it is really necessary, and most likely your ecosystem would be able to function.
However, since combat would suddenly not be the main source of enjoyment, then the devs would have to implement other ways to have fun in this breathing/living world or the game would die quickly.
Well, that non-combat fun, would be a huge ass challenge.
A lot of games make combat a challenge, mainly via PvP, or Perma-death or whatever, so dying is not enjoyed, and even greatly discouraged, so safe, assured wins, become the flavor of the game.
With that said, most RPG's involve combat, some kind of ability to be an ass kicker, I think it was Life is Feudal that discovered that very few people enjoyed playing peasants and pounding sand to progress.
The idea of slaying a dragon is the stuff of legends, so, obviously, when players get into a game, the goal is to kill their way up the food chain till they get to gods and dragons.
This is not a game issue, this is a player one, so how would that get fixed.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
While I am not sure how well a real ecosystem would work in a game world filled with a bunch of murder hobo's (read some dev blogs from UO about how badly this failed)
But I love the idea of ambiance having meaning.
This is where you realize that combat in most games, being trivial and the most common way to interact with the world, needs to be more dangerous.
Then, it implies that for people to have fun in the games, there is combat but not just combat.
Ah yes, Feng Shui, I mean Sun Tzu , nahh.. legit, I have no idea what you are saying.
Can you explain this better.
Yes.
What do we do in most games? We kill stuff for fun. Because, yes combat is fun (or supposed to be).
In MMOs this is usually the main way to interact with the world. We kill stuff and in return we get XP, loot, materials, and even gold.
Breathing in a MMO means usually: I see, I kill, I loot.
So devs introduced some other activites, like trading and crafting and even sometimes life-skilling, but it doesn't change the fact that the main activity is killing.
For the slaughter to be successful, it implies the combat has to be largely in favor of the players (killing any feeling of epicness in the process).
And this is exactly what happened in the UO example you mentioned. They had a nice ecosystem, and then they unleashed a horde of mass-murderers with disastrous consequences.
But what if combat would actually be really dangerous? Like scary?
Well people would still fight but only when it is really necessary, and most likely your ecosystem would be able to function.
However, since combat would suddenly not be the main source of enjoyment, then the devs would have to implement other ways to have fun in this breathing/living world or the game would die quickly.
Well, that non-combat fun, would be a huge ass challenge.
A lot of games make combat a challenge, mainly via PvP, or Perma-death or whatever, so dying is not enjoyed, and even greatly discouraged, so safe, assured wins, become the flavor of the game.
With that said, most RPG's involve combat, some kind of ability to be an ass kicker, I think it was Life is Feudal that discovered that very few people enjoyed playing peasants and pounding sand to progress.
The idea of slaying a dragon is the stuff of legends, so, obviously, when players get into a game, the goal is to kill their way up the food chain till they get to gods and dragons.
This is not a game issue, this is a player one, so how would that get fixed.
The goal would not be to make the combat unfun but to make it dangerous, risky.
In Elden Ring, the combat is fun. And it is dangerous for two reasons:
- it is hard.
- you may possibly lose XP (but not levels = there is a decent limit to punishment)
And victory is way more satisfying than in most games.
And I am pretty sure there are other ways without reaching the extreme permadeath.
Maybe Life is Feudal is boring (did not play it), however in BDO they managed to attract a strong community of life-skillers. How?
First, life skilling has its own gear progression (like combat). Second, life skilling contributes to the progress of your character because it brings money that can buy combat gear. Life skilling is less efficient than combat, but some players exclusively do that.
Yes, people want to slay the dragons and the gods.
But in the perspective of a living world, should everybody be able to do so?
In such a fantasy world, should not we have some monsters that everybody is scared of?
While I am not sure how well a real ecosystem would work in a game world filled with a bunch of murder hobo's (read some dev blogs from UO about how badly this failed)
But I love the idea of ambiance having meaning.
This is where you realize that combat in most games, being trivial and the most common way to interact with the world, needs to be more dangerous.
Then, it implies that for people to have fun in the games, there is combat but not just combat.
Ah yes, Feng Shui, I mean Sun Tzu , nahh.. legit, I have no idea what you are saying.
Can you explain this better.
Yes.
What do we do in most games? We kill stuff for fun. Because, yes combat is fun (or supposed to be).
In MMOs this is usually the main way to interact with the world. We kill stuff and in return we get XP, loot, materials, and even gold.
Breathing in a MMO means usually: I see, I kill, I loot.
So devs introduced some other activites, like trading and crafting and even sometimes life-skilling, but it doesn't change the fact that the main activity is killing.
For the slaughter to be successful, it implies the combat has to be largely in favor of the players (killing any feeling of epicness in the process).
And this is exactly what happened in the UO example you mentioned. They had a nice ecosystem, and then they unleashed a horde of mass-murderers with disastrous consequences.
But what if combat would actually be really dangerous? Like scary?
Well people would still fight but only when it is really necessary, and most likely your ecosystem would be able to function.
However, since combat would suddenly not be the main source of enjoyment, then the devs would have to implement other ways to have fun in this breathing/living world or the game would die quickly.
Well, that non-combat fun, would be a huge ass challenge.
A lot of games make combat a challenge, mainly via PvP, or Perma-death or whatever, so dying is not enjoyed, and even greatly discouraged, so safe, assured wins, become the flavor of the game.
With that said, most RPG's involve combat, some kind of ability to be an ass kicker, I think it was Life is Feudal that discovered that very few people enjoyed playing peasants and pounding sand to progress.
The idea of slaying a dragon is the stuff of legends, so, obviously, when players get into a game, the goal is to kill their way up the food chain till they get to gods and dragons.
This is not a game issue, this is a player one, so how would that get fixed.
The goal would not be to make the combat unfun but to make it dangerous, risky.
In Elden Ring, the combat is fun. And it is dangerous for two reasons:
- it is hard.
- you may possibly lose XP (but not levels = there is a decent limit to punishment)
And victory is way more satisfying than in most games.
And I am pretty sure there are other ways without reaching the extreme permadeath.
Maybe Life is Feudal is boring (did not play it), however in BDO they managed to attract a strong community of life-skillers. How?
First, life skilling has its own gear progression (like combat). Second, life skilling contributes to the progress of your character because it brings money that can buy combat gear. Life skilling is less efficient than combat, but some players exclusively do that.
Yes, people want to slay the dragons and the gods.
But in the perspective of a living world, should everybody be able to do so?
In such a fantasy world, should not we have some monsters that everybody is scared of?
I think you hit a good point on something where, as you called it, "Skilling" gives solid rewards, and can be it's own style of play.
A lot of times, in most games, killing is what funds crafting, you go out, kill mobs for gold and loot, then use that loot in crafting.
I think if they made games were there were adventure classes and crafting classes, it would go a long way in making for some deep level of gameplay.
I mean when you think about it, a Lumberjack, is often someone that is not to be trifled with, while maybe not as cool and fantasy as a Ranger, they would still need the combat prowess to deal with whatever they faced in the woods, as they went to chop down trees, with the added boon of needing to be able to haul off the tress.
I mean, thinking about it, a Lumberjack, if made into a class, would be proficient with all axes, most knives and daggers, spears, polearms, and the like, because they use things like Timberjacks, Peavy Points, etc.
Toss in an large hauling animal like a Draft Horse, Ox, even things like Dire Boars, Rhinos, even things like Dinosaurs, which would be like Triceratops, just these huge beasts of burden, that would count as their mount, pet, and hauling animal, that would use to haul massive trees out of the woods, to the mill. Where they would make some solid coin off that, and head out and do it again.
Now toss in things like Ents, Dryads, Nyad's, angry druids, Sprites, Elementals, and all the other things that want to kill you, and being a Lumberjack is no joke, sure, you are not there to slay dragons, and the like, in fact, the days when you topple that 100 foot, red oak tree, and haul it to town without needing to fight for your life, are the good days, very profitable.
Sure, the Rangers can go off and die trying to slay dragons, it's cooler, but make a game where you have both, and see how many people would enjoy that whole process of making 100 gold off toppling a huge ass tree and dragging it to the mill, vs that same 100 gold to run a series of dungeon crawls.
Make it so they have their own daily rewards, or the mills have demands, as opposed to just going out and randomly chopping trees, like the Mills will pay extra for redwood, and currently are not accepting balsa or most really soft pines. Also they would get a bonus if they brought past some amount of wood, like a bonus for meeting quota.
That way it also is a thinking game for the player, they would have their own Daily Rewards kinds of things going on.
Sure the combat classes get rewards for killing 100 rabbits, the lumberjack gets a reward for dragging in 100 feet of tree.
Then when the Lumberjack gets high enough level, they can open their own mill, or take Woodcraft and become a carpenter as an Elite Spec.
Now that would be some cool shit to put in a game.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
I think the answer is quite simple. All MMORPG worlds aren't dynamic enough. If you had a real ecosystem, the game could generate quests depending on the actual situation of each part of the world. You'd basically never encounter the same situation twice.
Imagine a village having a wolf problem. Adventurers come and exterminate most wolves. A few weeks later, they come back, and because of the lack of predators, they now have an infestation of rabbits. And that's just a very simple example.
I like the idea, but wonder "how long" it would take for the wolves to be exterminated. Didn't UO have a kind of ecosystem in place to start off?
I do like the idea of a "dynamic world", though. These static worlds we've had become boring quickly for me.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
I think the answer is quite simple. All MMORPG worlds aren't dynamic enough. If you had a real ecosystem, the game could generate quests depending on the actual situation of each part of the world. You'd basically never encounter the same situation twice.
Imagine a village having a wolf problem. Adventurers come and exterminate most wolves. A few weeks later, they come back, and because of the lack of predators, they now have an infestation of rabbits. And that's just a very simple example.
I like the idea, but wonder "how long" it would take for the wolves to be exterminated. Didn't UO have a kind of ecosystem in place to start off?
I do like the idea of a "dynamic world", though. These static worlds we've had become boring quickly for me.
yah.. it did.. it was a bloodbath.
They were not ready for a bunch of Murder hobo's who could not give a fuck about what they killed as long as it gave loot and exp.
AFIK, the devs still laugh about that to this day.
Just like EQ`1 Devs talking about guilds killing pretty much everything, even quest givers and guild leaders.
Which is what brought us to modern MMO where they don't let you attack anything they don't want you to kill.
The long and short of it with gamers is, if it has HP, it's gonna get killed.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
I think the answer is quite simple. All MMORPG worlds aren't dynamic enough. If you had a real ecosystem, the game could generate quests depending on the actual situation of each part of the world. You'd basically never encounter the same situation twice.
Imagine a village having a wolf problem. Adventurers come and exterminate most wolves. A few weeks later, they come back, and because of the lack of predators, they now have an infestation of rabbits. And that's just a very simple example.
I like the idea, but wonder "how long" it would take for the wolves to be exterminated. Didn't UO have a kind of ecosystem in place to start off?
I do like the idea of a "dynamic world", though. These static worlds we've had become boring quickly for me.
When Ultima Online launched it did have an ecosystem for animals that didnt work but they also vastly underestimated how many people would be playing the game and therefor the players overwhelmed the ecosystem. The map size of UO at launch was also quite small so players were not able to spread out.
A fully dynamic MMO world could work it would just have to be huge.
I think the answer is quite simple. All MMORPG worlds aren't dynamic enough. If you had a real ecosystem, the game could generate quests depending on the actual situation of each part of the world. You'd basically never encounter the same situation twice.
Imagine a village having a wolf problem. Adventurers come and exterminate most wolves. A few weeks later, they come back, and because of the lack of predators, they now have an infestation of rabbits. And that's just a very simple example.
I like the idea, but wonder "how long" it would take for the wolves to be exterminated. Didn't UO have a kind of ecosystem in place to start off?
I do like the idea of a "dynamic world", though. These static worlds we've had become boring quickly for me.
yah.. it did.. it was a bloodbath.
They were not ready for a bunch of Murder hobo's who could not give a fuck about what they killed as long as it gave loot and exp.
AFIK, the devs still laugh about that to this day.
Just like EQ`1 Devs talking about guilds killing pretty much everything, even quest givers and guild leaders.
Which is what brought us to modern MMO where they don't let you attack anything they don't want you to kill.
The long and short of it with gamers is, if it has HP, it's gonna get killed.
Developers are always so naive about their player base. They always think their players have limits.
I think the answer is quite simple. All MMORPG worlds aren't dynamic enough. If you had a real ecosystem, the game could generate quests depending on the actual situation of each part of the world. You'd basically never encounter the same situation twice.
Imagine a village having a wolf problem. Adventurers come and exterminate most wolves. A few weeks later, they come back, and because of the lack of predators, they now have an infestation of rabbits. And that's just a very simple example.
I like the idea, but wonder "how long" it would take for the wolves to be exterminated. Didn't UO have a kind of ecosystem in place to start off?
I do like the idea of a "dynamic world", though. These static worlds we've had become boring quickly for me.
You'd definitely need to create a certain equilibrium that the system constantly edges itself back towards.
This way, players can affect the ecosystem, but they would need to offer up a constant presence to make that effect permanent.
Of course, server events that changed that equilibrium could be included to provide the feeling of an evolving world. It would also help keep things fresh for leveling alts.
I think the answer is quite simple. All MMORPG worlds aren't dynamic enough. If you had a real ecosystem, the game could generate quests depending on the actual situation of each part of the world. You'd basically never encounter the same situation twice.
Imagine a village having a wolf problem. Adventurers come and exterminate most wolves. A few weeks later, they come back, and because of the lack of predators, they now have an infestation of rabbits. And that's just a very simple example.
I like the idea, but wonder "how long" it would take for the wolves to be exterminated. Didn't UO have a kind of ecosystem in place to start off?
I do like the idea of a "dynamic world", though. These static worlds we've had become boring quickly for me.
You'd definitely need to create a certain equilibrium that the system constantly edges itself back towards.
This way, players can affect the ecosystem, but they would need to offer up a constant presence to make that effect permanent.
Of course, server events that changed that equilibrium could be included to provide the feeling of an evolving world. It would also help keep things fresh for leveling alts.
Yes. Or you can say FU#$%! to the players! Deal with your own sh!t!
Let's pretend that wolves' heart are a component for whatever spell. You have also a rare species of rabbit that is called the "pestilence" rabbit because, yes, it is spreading a sickness that is contagious to humans. The pestilence rabbit is usually a non problem, because its population is largely controlled by the wolves.
Now, mages want more wolves hearts.
Everybody goes on wolf hunting to get the precious wolves hearts. Now, the wolves are almost exterminated in this region (may be there are more in an other continent), and the pestilence rabbits start to thrive. People have a hard time to control their population while having to fight the sickness they spread. Also mages are sad because the wolves heart became really rare and therefore sell at a crazy price on the market.
Here, no event is coming to save the players.
They have to make choices. Kill rabbits? Find remedies? Find more wolves to kill somewhere else?
Maybe it's too late, and they should just leave this area? That would allow the wolf population to regrow and solve the problem.
Meanwhile, taking advantage of this super growth rate, one of the pestilence rabbit mutated into something bigger and scarier, that is now haunting this place.
I think the answer is quite simple. All MMORPG worlds aren't dynamic enough. If you had a real ecosystem, the game could generate quests depending on the actual situation of each part of the world. You'd basically never encounter the same situation twice.
Imagine a village having a wolf problem. Adventurers come and exterminate most wolves. A few weeks later, they come back, and because of the lack of predators, they now have an infestation of rabbits. And that's just a very simple example.
I like the idea, but wonder "how long" it would take for the wolves to be exterminated. Didn't UO have a kind of ecosystem in place to start off?
I do like the idea of a "dynamic world", though. These static worlds we've had become boring quickly for me.
You'd definitely need to create a certain equilibrium that the system constantly edges itself back towards.
This way, players can affect the ecosystem, but they would need to offer up a constant presence to make that effect permanent.
Of course, server events that changed that equilibrium could be included to provide the feeling of an evolving world. It would also help keep things fresh for leveling alts.
Yes. Or you can say FU#$%! to the players! Deal with your own sh!t!
Let's pretend that wolves' heart are a component for whatever spell. You have also a rare species of rabbit that is called the "pestilence" rabbit because, yes, it is spreading a sickness that is contagious to humans. The pestilence rabbit is usually a non problem, because its population is largely controlled by the wolves.
Now, mages want more wolves hearts.
Everybody goes on wolf hunting to get the precious wolves hearts. Now, the wolves are almost exterminated in this region (may be there are more in an other continent), and the pestilence rabbits start to thrive. People have a hard time to control their population while having to fight the sickness they spread. Also mages are sad because the wolves heart became really rare and therefore sell at a crazy price on the market.
Here, no event is coming to save the players.
They have to make choices. Kill rabbits? Find remedies? Find more wolves to kill somewhere else?
Maybe it's too late, and they should just leave this area? That would allow the wolf population to regrow and solve the problem.
Meanwhile, taking advantage of this super growth rate, one of the pestilence rabbit mutated into something bigger and scarier, that is now haunting this place.
Who will defeat it?
I think some mmorpgs tried to do this to an extend: Rift comes to mind. Rift had zone events that would kill off key npcs in areas across the zone and take over that area if left unchecked.
I think the answer is quite simple. All MMORPG worlds aren't dynamic enough. If you had a real ecosystem, the game could generate quests depending on the actual situation of each part of the world. You'd basically never encounter the same situation twice.
Imagine a village having a wolf problem. Adventurers come and exterminate most wolves. A few weeks later, they come back, and because of the lack of predators, they now have an infestation of rabbits. And that's just a very simple example.
I like the idea, but wonder "how long" it would take for the wolves to be exterminated. Didn't UO have a kind of ecosystem in place to start off?
I do like the idea of a "dynamic world", though. These static worlds we've had become boring quickly for me.
You'd definitely need to create a certain equilibrium that the system constantly edges itself back towards.
This way, players can affect the ecosystem, but they would need to offer up a constant presence to make that effect permanent.
Of course, server events that changed that equilibrium could be included to provide the feeling of an evolving world. It would also help keep things fresh for leveling alts.
Yes. Or you can say FU#$%! to the players! Deal with your own sh!t!
Let's pretend that wolves' heart are a component for whatever spell. You have also a rare species of rabbit that is called the "pestilence" rabbit because, yes, it is spreading a sickness that is contagious to humans. The pestilence rabbit is usually a non problem, because its population is largely controlled by the wolves.
Now, mages want more wolves hearts.
Everybody goes on wolf hunting to get the precious wolves hearts. Now, the wolves are almost exterminated in this region (may be there are more in an other continent), and the pestilence rabbits start to thrive. People have a hard time to control their population while having to fight the sickness they spread. Also mages are sad because the wolves heart became really rare and therefore sell at a crazy price on the market.
Here, no event is coming to save the players.
They have to make choices. Kill rabbits? Find remedies? Find more wolves to kill somewhere else?
Maybe it's too late, and they should just leave this area? That would allow the wolf population to regrow and solve the problem.
Meanwhile, taking advantage of this super growth rate, one of the pestilence rabbit mutated into something bigger and scarier, that is now haunting this place.
Who will defeat it?
I think some mmorpgs tried to do this to an extend: Rift comes to mind. Rift had zone events that would kill off key npcs in areas across the zone and take over that area if left unchecked.
Yes many times because of where I was playing from, I would be trapped in an inn unable to go out because no one was about to help kill those monsters.
I think the answer is quite simple. All MMORPG worlds aren't dynamic enough. If you had a real ecosystem, the game could generate quests depending on the actual situation of each part of the world. You'd basically never encounter the same situation twice.
Imagine a village having a wolf problem. Adventurers come and exterminate most wolves. A few weeks later, they come back, and because of the lack of predators, they now have an infestation of rabbits. And that's just a very simple example.
I like the idea, but wonder "how long" it would take for the wolves to be exterminated. Didn't UO have a kind of ecosystem in place to start off?
I do like the idea of a "dynamic world", though. These static worlds we've had become boring quickly for me.
yah.. it did.. it was a bloodbath.
They were not ready for a bunch of Murder hobo's who could not give a fuck about what they killed as long as it gave loot and exp.
AFIK, the devs still laugh about that to this day.
Just like EQ`1 Devs talking about guilds killing pretty much everything, even quest givers and guild leaders.
Which is what brought us to modern MMO where they don't let you attack anything they don't want you to kill.
The long and short of it with gamers is, if it has HP, it's gonna get killed.
Developers are always so naive about their player base. They always think their players have limits.
This is so painfully true.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Players before MMO dailies were a thing - "There isnt enough content, give me something to do when I log on every single day for months or even years
Cant speak of other MMORPGs -- but I never got to do finish what I started in Vanguard. I think it had dailies, too, but I rarely did them.
The time when I really learned to hate dailies was in No Man's Sky, where you have to work endlessly on your frigattes, constantly hunting for hopeful candidates and throwing out failed experiments.
There are other ways to make the world more dynamic. Like UO which had treasure maps. Very simple to implement. I'm appalled no more modern game has those. Well, ESO has them, kinda. But not exactly the same, and there's a finished number, they are not generated.
I've never seen another MMORPG where the game opened the door for Player Initiatives like "The Fishing Council of Britannia", and all the other things Players did on their own.
See EVE.
Really? I never read anything on this. But then Eve isn't what I want in an MMORPG, although it seems like one of the all-time greats to me. Out of curiosity, can you give a brief rundown?
Well, since EVE is famously known for being challenging for newcomers there are a multitude of player run training corporation's, with of perhaps the most famous and long running being EVE University. I would have linked their website, but appears they are currently under a DDOS attack because, you know, EVE.
"2022EVE University is a corporation in EVE Online and a member of the Ivy League Alliance. We are a neutral, non-profit training corporation in New Eden. Founded in March of 2004 by Morning Maniac, EVE University has taught over 25,000 pilots and continues to take new pilots and train them in all aspects of EVE Online."
Then there's the long running and infamous New World Order of High Sec, aka "The Code" keeping the universe "safe" from unsanctioned carebear miners. (These folks take miner griefing into a whole new level.)
"Without rules, there is no such thing as freedom. By enforcing a system of just laws, I give the miners liberation from their own worst instincts. And through this process, the miners can be molded into better people, the kind worthy of joining the new community of EVE. I'm no idealist to believe, firmly, in the integrity of the Code and the New Order of Highsec. It's no ideal to me: It is a living, working reality."
Now, EVE has often had out of game casinos, where players gambled ISK for fun and profit. Back in 2016 one of these casinos bankrolled World War Bee, aka the Casino Wars with the goal of exterminating the notorious Goonswarm Alliance (of 4 Chan fame).
Now while the war ended years ago, it resulted in the casino owners in game account was banished and CCP uncharacteristically clamping down hard on casinos in general.
Just another day in EVE, however those events reverberated until four years later EVE saw a former Goon fleet commander who had lost his job come back at his former boss for vengeance in 2020.
Wormholes in EVE close after a certain period of time passes or a certain amount of ship mass fly through.
As some wormhole system types are much more desirable than others players often push mass through to close a "bad" hole in the hopes of getting a better one.
I was once a member of a huge worm hole corp who figured out the "pattern" behind the wormhole generation mechanic so they could not only generate at will very desirable WH systems for their use, but also generate "crap" wormhole systems for other "competitors."
Took CCP a while to find out, and they did issue a cease and desist order but did not fix it because they didn't have a better way.
Of course the Corp didn't desist, so I left before the inevitable ban hammer came down on the worst offenders and the corp was forced to disolve.
So many stories to be told, all driven by players utilizing tools within and outside the game to create a "true" universe and sandbox experience.
Organizations rise and fall for PVP such as Red vs Blue, faction war alliances battle for control of low Sec space, countless pirate and mercenary organizations.
Back in the day wardec group could be hired to torment other players and groups in EVE. (I once spent some ISK to remove some competitors from a dead end star system in Amarr space I considered "mine.")
I once joined a group of like minded pilots who kept each other company as they "explored" as many star systems in EVE as they could and sometimes help arrange their safe passage through the space controlled by the Alliance I was in. (Also proved to be a decent source of Intel at times, if you could befriend them enough to break their neutrality oath)
That's the stuff that "worlds" are made of.
UO had some very secretive (at least to me) groups. They were known, but the things they did weren't very public. Only the "connected" seemed to know details until some came out due to Dev actions to curtail the.
An example was certain guilds that figured out how to kill NPC Guards, uber powerful guards to prevent crime in guard zones. They had a powerful sword that did lightning damage, and that was what these players were after and got by killing these guards. The UO Devs wanted to maintain this sort of world, where if you can do it, it was allowed. But they couldn't allow these Guard's Swords in play, so they told them they could keep them as long as they didn't use them. But they got into a big fight, and went and got their Guard Swords to get revenge, and the Devs stepped in and took the swords away. (I'm not sure if they actually did or if that was just PR, or if they got them all.)
I think there may well be stories buried deep that we may never know, but that may be just a desire for such deep worlds.
Hey MOD, you closed the post I linked? It has everything to do as an example of freedom, and the opposite to the entire concept of "daily slavery."
That post will eventually fall off the list of saved posts, and that's a shame as that kind of game design is the only way to move MMORPGs back to "worlds" instead of just more meaningless games of the same old design. I put a lot of work into that, and even though few here care, a healthy market would bring a lot more players, who do care, back into the MMORPG scene. Hell, it's even for YOUR own good.
The fact that they closed that discussion, yet we have a poster who has been keeping a thread going for years posting the exact same thing over and over- crowdfunding milestone updates- is absolutely silly.
Specifically considering that thread rarely ever garners any attention other than the same folks sarcastically criticizing the project periodically.
The fact that they closed that discussion, yet we have a poster who has been keeping a thread going for years posting the exact same thing over and over- crowdfunding milestone updates- is absolutely silly.
Specifically considering that thread rarely ever garners any attention other than the same folks sarcastically criticizing the project periodically.
Crowdfunding milestones thread is a bit silly, but it's a thread where people post updates to the situation and have discussion. Imho the mods should almost never close a thread because it's "on-topic but too silly".
Whereas Amaranthar necroed a thread by bumping it. I don't think it's the mod's job to go out of their way to to evaluate "Whether this thread is special enough that we'll make exception and allow necroing by bumping it".
I'm not a mod on these forums and not speaking for these forum's moderators, but it would take too much time to evaluate threads like that, and also threads importance is too subjective question. A website with multiple moderators would have too hard time trying to draw any consistent line on what's allowed and what gets locked.
I would question if you could call that a necro, but if I was in a hurry I might have made the same decision myself. If the idea though is to do things quickly which is quite reasonable, leaving it would have been quicker. I questioned their last decision and the guy who got banned eventually explained why it happened, we never know the full story.
Comments
But I love the idea of ambiance having meaning.
I would love for seasons, but I would settle for, say something like the various environments in different zones to have meaning.
To use.. yet another example from GW2.. fucking hell this game sucked me in harder than a gas powered Dyson ball vacuum.
Anyway, using GW2 as an example, you have various zones, like the Shiverpeaks, which are snow covered Nordic style mountain ranges, and on the flip side of this, you have Ascalon which is mainly a hot desert region.
Then you have the Crystal Deserts, the Heart of Magumma which is a deep topical jungle like setting.
and through all this.. you are wearing the exact same gear.
Personally, I would love the if idea that the setting would affect what gear you could wear, like needing cold weather gear to endure the lands in the Shiverpeaks, and needing something more lightweight and moisture wicking to deal with the deserts.
Just the idea that the ambient environment mattered, would be stupid cool!
And don't even get me started on things like swimming in full plate armor, which makes no sense at all. I really think games should make it so that player need to consider what they are wearing for where they are. I like what GW2 has done, but I think it could be expanded upon, to make it so much better.
Anyway, just that kind of dynamic would totally change how players played an MMO, where you needed gear for different environments.
Can you explain this better.
UO had some very secretive (at least to me) groups. They were known, but the things they did weren't very public. Only the "connected" seemed to know details until some came out due to Dev actions to curtail the.
An example was certain guilds that figured out how to kill NPC Guards, uber powerful guards to prevent crime in guard zones. They had a powerful sword that did lightning damage, and that was what these players were after and got by killing these guards.
The UO Devs wanted to maintain this sort of world, where if you can do it, it was allowed. But they couldn't allow these Guard's Swords in play, so they told them they could keep them as long as they didn't use them.
But they got into a big fight, and went and got their Guard Swords to get revenge, and the Devs stepped in and took the swords away. (I'm not sure if they actually did or if that was just PR, or if they got them all.)
I think there may well be stories buried deep that we may never know, but that may be just a desire for such deep worlds.
My "Greatest Quest Artifact" post:
https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/487824/the-greatest-quest-artifact-to-ever-exist-in-mmorpgs
...stemmed from this kind of background.
Once upon a time....
It wasn't until sunwell patch (which tbc classic is in now) that dailies became such a huge part of everyone's game, while it still existed before that not many did them, Blizzard noticed how many people did them and just made more and more of it, and tied more and more items to it.
The problem was that the creation of so much money created a gold inflation in the game.
In itself its mostly low effort content to keep people playing the game inbetween proper content patches.
While the world was overrun by "a horde of mass-murderers" (players working up skills killing anything that moved), a big problem was that the game world was pretty small.
But this is a problem, no matter what.
Game worlds need to be much bigger for the numbers of players, I think.
Another issue that UO had was that their critters moved slowly, their run speed was half that of Player's.
Also, prey types didn't just run at first sight. They'd attack if you attacked them.
So critters were basically ducks in a shooting gallery.
In a nutshell, larger worlds and better basic AI can fix a lot of problems with ecosystems.
Once upon a time....
There's fishing in EvE ? What do you catch, space whales ?
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
A lot of games make combat a challenge, mainly via PvP, or Perma-death or whatever, so dying is not enjoyed, and even greatly discouraged, so safe, assured wins, become the flavor of the game.
With that said, most RPG's involve combat, some kind of ability to be an ass kicker, I think it was Life is Feudal that discovered that very few people enjoyed playing peasants and pounding sand to progress.
The idea of slaying a dragon is the stuff of legends, so, obviously, when players get into a game, the goal is to kill their way up the food chain till they get to gods and dragons.
This is not a game issue, this is a player one, so how would that get fixed.
A lot of times, in most games, killing is what funds crafting, you go out, kill mobs for gold and loot, then use that loot in crafting.
I think if they made games were there were adventure classes and crafting classes, it would go a long way in making for some deep level of gameplay.
I mean when you think about it, a Lumberjack, is often someone that is not to be trifled with, while maybe not as cool and fantasy as a Ranger, they would still need the combat prowess to deal with whatever they faced in the woods, as they went to chop down trees, with the added boon of needing to be able to haul off the tress.
I mean, thinking about it, a Lumberjack, if made into a class, would be proficient with all axes, most knives and daggers, spears, polearms, and the like, because they use things like Timberjacks, Peavy Points, etc.
Toss in an large hauling animal like a Draft Horse, Ox, even things like Dire Boars, Rhinos, even things like Dinosaurs, which would be like Triceratops, just these huge beasts of burden, that would count as their mount, pet, and hauling animal, that would use to haul massive trees out of the woods, to the mill. Where they would make some solid coin off that, and head out and do it again.
Now toss in things like Ents, Dryads, Nyad's, angry druids, Sprites, Elementals, and all the other things that want to kill you, and being a Lumberjack is no joke, sure, you are not there to slay dragons, and the like, in fact, the days when you topple that 100 foot, red oak tree, and haul it to town without needing to fight for your life, are the good days, very profitable.
Sure, the Rangers can go off and die trying to slay dragons, it's cooler, but make a game where you have both, and see how many people would enjoy that whole process of making 100 gold off toppling a huge ass tree and dragging it to the mill, vs that same 100 gold to run a series of dungeon crawls.
Make it so they have their own daily rewards, or the mills have demands, as opposed to just going out and randomly chopping trees, like the Mills will pay extra for redwood, and currently are not accepting balsa or most really soft pines. Also they would get a bonus if they brought past some amount of wood, like a bonus for meeting quota.
That way it also is a thinking game for the player, they would have their own Daily Rewards kinds of things going on.
Sure the combat classes get rewards for killing 100 rabbits, the lumberjack gets a reward for dragging in 100 feet of tree.
Then when the Lumberjack gets high enough level, they can open their own mill, or take Woodcraft and become a carpenter as an Elite Spec.
Now that would be some cool shit to put in a game.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
They were not ready for a bunch of Murder hobo's who could not give a fuck about what they killed as long as it gave loot and exp.
AFIK, the devs still laugh about that to this day.
Just like EQ`1 Devs talking about guilds killing pretty much everything, even quest givers and guild leaders.
Which is what brought us to modern MMO where they don't let you attack anything they don't want you to kill.
The long and short of it with gamers is, if it has HP, it's gonna get killed.
This way, players can affect the ecosystem, but they would need to offer up a constant presence to make that effect permanent.
Of course, server events that changed that equilibrium could be included to provide the feeling of an evolving world. It would also help keep things fresh for leveling alts.
I think some mmorpgs tried to do this to an extend: Rift comes to mind. Rift had zone events that would kill off key npcs in areas across the zone and take over that area if left unchecked.
That post will eventually fall off the list of saved posts, and that's a shame as that kind of game design is the only way to move MMORPGs back to "worlds" instead of just more meaningless games of the same old design.
I put a lot of work into that, and even though few here care, a healthy market would bring a lot more players, who do care, back into the MMORPG scene.
Hell, it's even for YOUR own good.
I PROTEST!
Once upon a time....
Specifically considering that thread rarely ever garners any attention other than the same folks sarcastically criticizing the project periodically.
Whereas Amaranthar necroed a thread by bumping it. I don't think it's the mod's job to go out of their way to to evaluate "Whether this thread is special enough that we'll make exception and allow necroing by bumping it".
I'm not a mod on these forums and not speaking for these forum's moderators, but it would take too much time to evaluate threads like that, and also threads importance is too subjective question. A website with multiple moderators would have too hard time trying to draw any consistent line on what's allowed and what gets locked.