Hardcore/high end players are not better

Ralphie2449

A very common thing I notice in the more loud hardcore/high end community is the pure denial and even anger at accusations of elitism or toxicity, there have even been multiple youtubers that have complained about how casuals call them toxic and elitist and their own brain just cant understand how can other possible consider them bad people

They believe they are friendly, they even say how they helped others beat the game and just cant understand why anyone would call them elitist.

This all seems to be centered around the delusion that they are superior/better than casuals because they "beat the game", something that becomes very clear when they try to talk even though they think that is completely normal.

Of course, your instant reaction is to say that isnt true, but that is why words are meaningless and why actions reveal the truth, so let's check common arguments such people make.

1) Countless comments about how everyone should aspire to be like them aka "git gud". Which literally screams "I have achieved the end goal in this game and everyone else behind me should do the same". If you believe you are what others should aspire to, you believe you are better than them.

2) A ton of comments on how the devs should make a game that forces people to git gud therefore saying their way of play is how everyone should be forced to play, literally screaming "I am entitled to force everyone to play the same way as I". If you believe your way of thinking/playing is what everyone else should eventually reach, you believe you are better than them.

3) Countless comments about how high end raiders DESERVE the best items and everyone else should receive inferior items. A bit self explanatory and obvious here.

4) Often saying how they helped others improve and beat the raid which again shows how much they are repulsed by others not playing optimally, it is like they want to eradicate playing games for fun because they have that mentality of:

"Oh this boss takes 15% more fire damage, I better change to the fire weapon that isnt as fun but I dont care about enjoying the gameplay, all I care is beating the boss" (keep in mind that the encounter is absolutely mathematically beatable without said optimal weapon)

Completely failing to realize that people dont play to "win" because many casuals dont need to prove anything to anyone in a video game that is about "fun". In short, if you believe helping casuals become more like you aka git gud is good, you believe you are better than them.

All these suggest that people who make such arguments believe one very clear thing, that they are better, that they know better and that makes them feel ENTITLED to things they shouldnt be including how others should play the game.

A normal attitude would be live and let live, yet we dont see that, we see hardcore players demand special treatment and demand superior items than everyone else to the point you see some people getting triggered when FF14 makes a cool animated armor available to solo que LFR which is the normal and fair thing for all.

Let me suggest something very simple, healthy people dont really care about how others live their life or play a video game though sadly many people fall into this category.

And considering hardcore player behaviour screams of unhealthy issues, from attaching their self worth to achievements and items coming from beating a scripted predictable boss to obsessing over "winning" rather than enjoying the gameplay as if they have something to prove.

Uwakionna

"Let me suggest something very simple, healthy people dont really care about how others live their life or play a video game..."

Perhaps take a moment to get a little self-critical, and think about this comment in relation.

Creating an entire thread for topics that have been gone over ad-nauseam with you, seems more than a little quibbly. It's pushed all the more by looking to the prior threads like the one on challenge to see how you're also misrepresentative.

You are far too busy clutching at some pretty thin and straw manned reasons for hating other people. Gotta be more constructive ways to spend your time.

Try knitting or something.

Kyleran

Seriously, "normal" people don't suffer (much) jealousy from seeing others be rewarded for doing extra effort, or doing it better than they are personally willing or capable of achieving.

I've rarely, if ever achieved much of anything which was BiS since I gave up raiding back in early WOW, which is why I played EVE for 10 years.

There I could slowly earn enough ISK to buy pretty much everything I ever wanted except of course maybe some BOP tournament reward ships (assuming there actually are any which can't be resold, not sure)

Envy of others achievements to the point of belittling them is certainly something I still struggle against doing (game streamers, /rolls eyes) but most would agree it isn't healthy to let such thoughts ruin running our own race in both gaming and in real life.

Theocritus

I dont know...Last I heard some of these hardcore players get paid pretty well in Esports, so yeah they are better.

eoloe

Ralphie2449 said:

healthy people dont really care about how others live their life or play a video game

Please comply to your own statement .

Sovrath

Ralphie2449 said:

This all seems to be centered around the delusion that they are superior/better than casuals because they "beat the game", something that becomes very clear when they try to talk even though they think that is completely normal.

Well, there seems to  be a lot here.

I would say that while "some" Elite Players are like that I bet dollars to donuts that all Elite players are not like that.

There seems to be  this weird thing with forums that if a small group of people from a certain demographic post something then they are representative for the entire demographic.

As far as being "better," while they are not inherently better people they are better players. 

I feel you have an axe to grind for some reason.

GrindcoreTHRALL

Git Gud and then you won't be worried about other players being elite and thinking you are casual.

Amaranthar

Sovrath said:

Ralphie2449 said:

This all seems to be centered around the delusion that they are superior/better than casuals because they "beat the game", something that becomes very clear when they try to talk even though they think that is completely normal.

Well, there seems to  be a lot here.

I would say that while "some" Elite Players are like that I bet dollars to donuts that all Elite players are not like that.

There seems to be  this weird thing with forums that if a small group of people from a certain demographic post something then they are representative for the entire demographic.

As far as being "better," while they are not inherently better people they are better players. 

I feel you have an axe to grind for some reason.

It seems to me that his real point is about games being designed to cater to certain play styles through best gear, best resources, availability. 
Yes, he's gotten a little lost at times, and his comments about "healthy" are a very poor way to look at it. 
But I have seen some of what he's talking about. Especially in games that have PvP zones, and top end gear or resources that you can't get anywhere else. Or when it is much more available. 

I don't like that, either, to be honest. 

The_Korrigan

Ralphie2449 said:

Let me suggest something very simple, healthy people dont really care about how others live their life or play a video game though sadly many people fall into this category.

So you aren't healthy ?

I'm sincerely sorry for you.

KnightFalz

Ralphie2449 said:

A normal attitude would be live and let live, yet we dont see that, we see hardcore players demand special treatment and demand superior items than everyone else to the point you see some people getting triggered when FF14 makes a cool animated armor available to solo que LFR which is the normal and fair thing for all.

We certainly don't see that normal attitude from you. I've never seen another so consumed by their distaste for the disparate rewards earned by those that choose to do content of disparate challenge.

Hardcore players don't need to demand rewards suited to the increased challenges they undertake. Most games provide them as your bleating complaints over that demonstrate you to be well aware.

Celebrating the exceptions you favour don't make them the standard.

Slapshot1188

I am better.

That is all.

Quizzical

People who can beat a game are better at beating that game than people who can't beat the game or could have beaten the game but didn't care to put in the time that it would have taken.  The latter is very common, after all, as a very common reason for not beating a game is that you get bored of it and quit.  That doesn't mean that the people who beat the game are morally better than people who didn't beat the game or even that they're better at a different game.  But there's really no sense in getting upset that someone else beat a game and you haven't.

There is a legitimate place in the world for games that are tuned to be easy enough that everyone wins if you put in enough time.  There is also a legitimate place in the world for games that are hard enough that most people can't beat the game at all, no matter how hard they try.  And there is a legitimate place in the world for a lot of difficulty levels in between those.  There is even a legitimate place in the world for games with adjustable difficulty so that the player can choose to set it anywhere from trivial to nearly impossible.

What I do not think is legitimate is insisting that all games ought to be tuned to whatever level of difficulty (or in your case, lack thereof) that you personally prefer so that no one else who has different preferences has anything to play at all.

Sovrath

Amaranthar said:

Sovrath said:

Ralphie2449 said:

This all seems to be centered around the delusion that they are superior/better than casuals because they "beat the game", something that becomes very clear when they try to talk even though they think that is completely normal.

Well, there seems to  be a lot here.

I would say that while "some" Elite Players are like that I bet dollars to donuts that all Elite players are not like that.

There seems to be  this weird thing with forums that if a small group of people from a certain demographic post something then they are representative for the entire demographic.

As far as being "better," while they are not inherently better people they are better players. 

I feel you have an axe to grind for some reason.

It seems to me that his real point is about games being designed to cater to certain play styles through best gear, best resources, availability. 
Yes, he's gotten a little lost at times, and his comments about "healthy" are a very poor way to look at it. 
But I have seen some of what he's talking about. Especially in games that have PvP zones, and top end gear or resources that you can't get anywhere else. Or when it is much more available. 

I don't like that, either, to be honest. 

Why is that bad?

I mean, not every game is for every person. 

I'm ok having games that require people to venture into dangerous areas for top resources if that's what the game is about.

I'm ok with there being games that have no pvp or even no combat.

Kyleran

Slapshot1188 said:

I am better.

That is all.

Well you know, it's not being "elitist" if one really is better at something than everyone else.



Amaranthar said:

Sovrath said:

Ralphie2449 said:

This all seems to be centered around the delusion that they are superior/better than casuals because they "beat the game", something that becomes very clear when they try to talk even though they think that is completely normal.

But I have seen some of what he's talking about. Especially in games that have PvP zones, and top end gear or resources that you can't get anywhere else. Or when it is much more available. 

I don't like that, either, to be honest. 

Yeah,  no one wants to be left out by developers in obtaining cool new rewards, but I'm OK with restricting certain rewards to those who complete specific content.

The "problem" is most prevalent in gear grinders where a player's "power" is greatly influenced by obtaining higher level gear.

Generally I think devs are catering less to fostering elitism, (the players make it all about that) rather they are just rewarding players with the necessary power to conquer future high level content.

If a player like me never raids, why do I need better gear in the first place?

Well, the answer is I /we just do, players who are progression addicts need goals to achieve and can feel left out when all the "coolest" rewards go to the "elite" raiders.

I've mostly come to terms with it over the years, but I don't blame the players like Ralphie does for being perhaps overly proud of their accomplishments vs mine, rather its the developers who are screwing up here.

Take Lost Ark for example, I was playing it recently, mostly enjoying it's storyline and other content as they had implemented a "pity" set of progression gear which was not as good as that which dropped for dungeon runners /raiders but was sufficient to let me progress thru all of the single player content, which I was fine with.

Until I cleared the final continent.....now there was no more content except to do hard mode raiding,  so no way to really progress your gear levels (I could still fine tune what I had) but that wasn't enough of an incentive to stay, so I quit playing and spending.

So devs risk losing their more casual players if their expectation is to either raid or suck it up...many will move on like I did.

Slapshot1188

Kyleran said:

Slapshot1188 said:

I am better.

That is all.

Well you know, it's not being "elitist" if one really is better at something than everyone else.

Exactly.  People over complicate things

Ralphie2449

Sovrath said:

I would say that while "some" Elite Players are like that I bet dollars to donuts that all Elite players are not like that.

There seems to be  this weird thing with forums that if a small group of people from a certain demographic post something then they are representative for the entire demographic.

I would agree on the first statement but do they use the argument I listed? Because like I said, we have seen even youtube/streamers whine about being called "elitist" and "bad" while having no idea why people see them like that.

Yet they make the same arguments I listed which scream "I believe I am better and everyone should be like me eventually" which is not an argument people will use hence why it is hidden behind things such as "I am just helping and I have no idea why others call me elitist and a terrible person "

Like i said, words mean very little, analyzing their arguments and actions reveal a lot more.

Sovrath said:

I mean, not every game is for every person.

I agree, what happens though when a game that is trying to be for all has said people scream at developers about how the game should be harder and everyone ELSE, should be more like them?

This literally shows that even if the game isnt for them, they want to make it to be for them and screw everyone else.

We can go into more specific examples in games like WoW where raidlogger complaints have turned the gaming into a raidlogging simulator while the devs keep desperately trying to say "its a game for all" while  mainly focusing around raidlogger complaints.

The thing is, there is no win win situation, you cant pander to both hardcore players and casuals at the same time, if you give something to casuals or make it more accessible the unhealthy hardcores will start moaning about how they are either forced to do casual dirty content or that their l33t serious item is now worthless cuz dirty casual plebs have it.

I can admit when something i enjoy isnt unpopular, build making is unpopular because majority of endgame content players will just metaslave and copy paste what a guide tells them, there is no argument about that, I completely understand why FF14 decided to go that way and even if I dont enjoy it I am not gonna start screaming that the game should change the entire design philosophy and direction for me.

But what we see from high end people is this entitlement that the game should be about them and they should decide what is right for everyone else which absolutely has hurt games in the past.

I still remember Preach saying how much of a nice person he is then throwing a tantrum during WoD that LFR got a decent trinket too and started moaning about it until it was removed or nerfed so he doesnt have to do dirty casual content.

But he will go on streams saying how he has no idea why people call him elitists

Ralphie2449

KnightFalz said:

We certainly don't see that normal attitude from you. I've never seen another so consumed by their distaste for the disparate rewards earned by those that choose to do content of disparate challenge.

I aint the one making the listed arguments, but I am sure you believe people who repeat those popular hardcore arguments are very healthy xd

KnightFalz said:

Hardcore players don't need to demand rewards suited to the increased challenges they undertake. Most games provide them as your bleating complaints over that demonstrate you to be well aware

Which is slowly changing and we have a lot of people getting very mad at accessibility, the mere fact that FF14 made some cool animated set available to LFR certainty triggered some very healthy hardcore players who repeat your points

Or literally any time a game makes something more accessible, we see the hardcore tirades in the forums.

This very forum is filled with the examples of the argument I listed, if they were so healthy why do they stop treating a video game like a video game and obsess over "winning" by treating it like work even through unfun methods as if their self worth and value comes from it?

This was a rhetorical question obviously.

eoloe

Let me enlighten y'all with my inherent divine knowledge. It is not "casuals" vs "elitists" anymore. "Casuals" is so 2000-2010. There is no more casuals. Everybody is on their screen 24/7.

In fact, there are two types of gamers:

- Group A: basement dwellers that manage to group despite obvious social deficiencies

- Group B: basement dwellers that are hopeless socially speaking

Both types waste an indecent time playing useless games for vain digital rewards and so-called "fun". The only difference is that Group A outperforms Group B for obvious reasons making them horribly jealous and posting their lamentations on gaming forums.

GrindcoreTHRALL

eoloe said:

Let me enlighten y'all with my inherent divine knowledge. It is not "casuals" vs "elitists" anymore. "Casuals" is so 2000-2010. There is no more casuals. Everybody is on their screen 24/7.

In fact, there are two types of gamers:

- Group A: basement dwellers that manage to group despite obvious social deficiencies

- Group B: basement dwellers that are hopeless socially speaking

Both types waste an indecent time playing useless games for vain digital rewards and so-called "fun". The only difference is that Group A outperforms Group B for obvious reasons making them horribly jealous and posting their lamentations on gaming forums.

Casual is mad.

DigDuggy

Better at what?  People?...no.  Melee combat?... depending on the system, yes.  Manipulating the various systems the game has?  probably yes.  Being Asswipes?  Often.  People who play more, tend to be better at many aspects of a game.  It's nothing against new or casual players.  However, time investing in a game will probably increase a persons skill.  Just like most things in this world.

I say this as a non hardcore person, who pretty much gets owned in pvp.  Still like it though.

Ralphie2449

Qbertq said:

Better at what?  People?...no.  Melee combat?... depending on the system, yes.  Manipulating the various systems the game has?  probably yes.  Being Asswipes?  Often. 

Believing themselves to be better in such a way that makes them feel entitled to tell others how they should enjoy a game or what the game should be designed around(aka around themselves).

delete5230

eoloe said:

Let me enlighten y'all with my inherent divine knowledge. It is not "casuals" vs "elitists" anymore. "Casuals" is so 2000-2010. There is no more casuals. Everybody is on their screen 24/7.

In fact, there are two types of gamers:

- Group A: basement dwellers that manage to group despite obvious social deficiencies

- Group B: basement dwellers that are hopeless socially speaking

Both types waste an indecent time playing useless games for vain digital rewards and so-called "fun". The only difference is that Group A outperforms Group B for obvious reasons making them horribly jealous and posting their lamentations on gaming forums.

Well when the big bombs hit you'll wish you were a basement dweller !!

  radiation meter.. check
  hot pockets.. check
  monster drink.. check  

KnightFalz

Ralphie2449 said:

KnightFalz said:

We certainly don't see that normal attitude from you. I've never seen another so consumed by their distaste for the disparate rewards earned by those that choose to do content of disparate challenge.

I aint the one making the listed arguments, but I am sure you believe people who repeat those popular hardcore arguments are very healthy xd

KnightFalz said:

Hardcore players don't need to demand rewards suited to the increased challenges they undertake. Most games provide them as your bleating complaints over that demonstrate you to be well aware

Which is slowly changing and we have a lot of people getting very mad at accessibility, the mere fact that FF14 made some cool animated set available to LFR certainty triggered some very healthy hardcore players who repeat your points

Or literally any time a game makes something more accessible, we see the hardcore tirades in the forums.

This very forum is filled with the examples of the argument I listed, if they were so healthy why do they stop treating a video game like a video game and obsess over "winning" by treating it like work even through unfun methods as if their self worth and value comes from it?

This was a rhetorical question obviously.

I'm talking about what you say, not whatever you imagine me to be referencing. It is a rather easy distinction to make with your name being clearly attached to it.

Many MMORPG players are frequently very mad at a great many things such that complaint has become the default trend of gaming forums. That complaint is happening means nothing in of itself any more. It is always happening.

This very forum is filled with numerous arguments against your contention not so characterized as you go on and on about.

Your entire argument on this has been rhetorical. There is no need for redundant specificity in this regard.

lahnmir

KnightFalz said:

Ralphie2449 said:

KnightFalz said:

We certainly don't see that normal attitude from you. I've never seen another so consumed by their distaste for the disparate rewards earned by those that choose to do content of disparate challenge.

I aint the one making the listed arguments, but I am sure you believe people who repeat those popular hardcore arguments are very healthy xd

KnightFalz said:

Hardcore players don't need to demand rewards suited to the increased challenges they undertake. Most games provide them as your bleating complaints over that demonstrate you to be well aware

Which is slowly changing and we have a lot of people getting very mad at accessibility, the mere fact that FF14 made some cool animated set available to LFR certainty triggered some very healthy hardcore players who repeat your points

Or literally any time a game makes something more accessible, we see the hardcore tirades in the forums.

This very forum is filled with the examples of the argument I listed, if they were so healthy why do they stop treating a video game like a video game and obsess over "winning" by treating it like work even through unfun methods as if their self worth and value comes from it?

This was a rhetorical question obviously.

I'm talking about what you say, not whatever you imagine me to be referencing. It is a rather easy distinction to make with your name being clearly attached to it.

Many MMORPG players are frequently very mad at a great many things such that complaint has become the default trend of gaming forums. That complaint is happening means nothing in of itself any more. It is always happening.

This very forum is filled with numerous arguments against your contention not so characterized as you go on and on about.

Your entire argument on this has been rhetorical. There is no need for redundant specificity in this regard.

It is a monologue disguised as a dialogue.

/Cheers,
Lahnmir

KnightFalz

Qbertq said:

Better at what?  People?...no.  Melee combat?... depending on the system, yes.  Manipulating the various systems the game has?  probably yes.  Being Asswipes?  Often.  People who play more, tend to be better at many aspects of a game.  It's nothing against new or casual players.  However, time investing in a game will probably increase a persons skill.  Just like most things in this world.

I say this as a non hardcore person, who pretty much gets owned in pvp.  Still like it though.

Ideally players are good at enjoying the games they choose to play in the manner they choose to play them. Any so able will be in a great spot. Those less able will always be left wanting to varying degree.

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