WoW: Wotlk is coming out in 8 days. compared to the trash cans you've been digging in for a new MMO, WoW will be good.
They also aren't including the RDF, which is a requirement for me since I have limited time every day to play due to real life (career and wife/kid).
RDF didnt exist until the very last batch of dungeons released. it was about a year and a half after launch?
WotLK Classic is based on update 3.3.5
Dungeon Finder was introduced in update 3.3.0
So, WotLK should have Dungeon Finder. But, unfortunately, Blizzard was stupid and listened to the players and didn't include Dungeon Finder and now we have this server mess.
Also, what's "RDF"? Raid Dungeon Finder? Raid Finder wasn't until update 4.3.0 in Cataclysm.
By the looks of the queues, the folks pissed about LFD are in the clear minority.
The funny thing about trying to say that the LFD people are in the minority because of the queue times is that there being no cross server Dungeon Finder is what's causing the server over crowding and thus the queues.
No one wants to be left on a dead server and unable to find groups for dungeons. So, everyone is flooding into one server. We already saw this happen in Vanilla Classic and TBC Classic.
If they did put in a cross server Dungeon Finder people would still be able to find groups for dungeons even while on an under populated server and so, people would not need to flood into one server so there would be no queue time issues at all.
So, nice try but you get the DERP prize.
I think this illustrates quite well, the two main camps about "grouping" for dungeons and raids. One desires a more social experience and the other wants the loot at the end (or XP) as quickly as possible, not seeming to care about the people behind the avatar.
Maybe I'm "overthinking" this?
How much of a "social experience" is waiting in a server queue for 2 hours?
WoW: Wotlk is coming out in 8 days. compared to the trash cans you've been digging in for a new MMO, WoW will be good.
They also aren't including the RDF, which is a requirement for me since I have limited time every day to play due to real life (career and wife/kid).
RDF didnt exist until the very last batch of dungeons released. it was about a year and a half after launch?
WotLK Classic is based on update 3.3.5
Dungeon Finder was introduced in update 3.3.0
So, WotLK should have Dungeon Finder. But, unfortunately, Blizzard was stupid and listened to the players and didn't include Dungeon Finder and now we have this server mess.
Also, what's "RDF"? Raid Dungeon Finder? Raid Finder wasn't until update 4.3.0 in Cataclysm.
By the looks of the queues, the folks pissed about LFD are in the clear minority.
The funny thing about trying to say that the LFD people are in the minority because of the queue times is that there being no cross server Dungeon Finder is what's causing the server over crowding and thus the queues.
No one wants to be left on a dead server and unable to find groups for dungeons. So, everyone is flooding into one server. We already saw this happen in Vanilla Classic and TBC Classic.
If they did put in a cross server Dungeon Finder people would still be able to find groups for dungeons even while on an under populated server and so, people would not need to flood into one server so there would be no queue time issues at all.
So, nice try but you get the DERP prize.
I think this illustrates quite well, the two main camps about "grouping" for dungeons and raids. One desires a more social experience and the other wants the loot at the end (or XP) as quickly as possible, not seeming to care about the people behind the avatar.
Maybe I'm "overthinking" this?
How much of a "social experience" is waiting in a server queue for 2 hours?
Yes, I, too, like to conflate technical restraints with gameplay design paradigms.
WoW: Wotlk is coming out in 8 days. compared to the trash cans you've been digging in for a new MMO, WoW will be good.
They also aren't including the RDF, which is a requirement for me since I have limited time every day to play due to real life (career and wife/kid).
RDF didnt exist until the very last batch of dungeons released. it was about a year and a half after launch?
WotLK Classic is based on update 3.3.5
Dungeon Finder was introduced in update 3.3.0
So, WotLK should have Dungeon Finder. But, unfortunately, Blizzard was stupid and listened to the players and didn't include Dungeon Finder and now we have this server mess.
Also, what's "RDF"? Raid Dungeon Finder? Raid Finder wasn't until update 4.3.0 in Cataclysm.
By the looks of the queues, the folks pissed about LFD are in the clear minority.
The funny thing about trying to say that the LFD people are in the minority because of the queue times is that there being no cross server Dungeon Finder is what's causing the server over crowding and thus the queues.
No one wants to be left on a dead server and unable to find groups for dungeons. So, everyone is flooding into one server. We already saw this happen in Vanilla Classic and TBC Classic.
If they did put in a cross server Dungeon Finder people would still be able to find groups for dungeons even while on an under populated server and so, people would not need to flood into one server so there would be no queue time issues at all.
So, nice try but you get the DERP prize.
I think this illustrates quite well, the two main camps about "grouping" for dungeons and raids. One desires a more social experience and the other wants the loot at the end (or XP) as quickly as possible, not seeming to care about the people behind the avatar.
Maybe I'm "overthinking" this?
How much of a "social experience" is waiting in a server queue for 2 hours?
Zero. How much socialization go on while for players to show up outside the dungeon?
Point made. Thanks
PS: "Server Queue"? Am I misreading what you're talking about? Server Queues are about NOT even being the game, right? Or did I miss something?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
WoW: Wotlk is coming out in 8 days. compared to the trash cans you've been digging in for a new MMO, WoW will be good.
They also aren't including the RDF, which is a requirement for me since I have limited time every day to play due to real life (career and wife/kid).
RDF didnt exist until the very last batch of dungeons released. it was about a year and a half after launch?
WotLK Classic is based on update 3.3.5
Dungeon Finder was introduced in update 3.3.0
So, WotLK should have Dungeon Finder. But, unfortunately, Blizzard was stupid and listened to the players and didn't include Dungeon Finder and now we have this server mess.
Also, what's "RDF"? Raid Dungeon Finder? Raid Finder wasn't until update 4.3.0 in Cataclysm.
By the looks of the queues, the folks pissed about LFD are in the clear minority.
The funny thing about trying to say that the LFD people are in the minority because of the queue times is that there being no cross server Dungeon Finder is what's causing the server over crowding and thus the queues.
No one wants to be left on a dead server and unable to find groups for dungeons. So, everyone is flooding into one server. We already saw this happen in Vanilla Classic and TBC Classic.
If they did put in a cross server Dungeon Finder people would still be able to find groups for dungeons even while on an under populated server and so, people would not need to flood into one server so there would be no queue time issues at all.
So, nice try but you get the DERP prize.
I think this illustrates quite well, the two main camps about "grouping" for dungeons and raids. One desires a more social experience and the other wants the loot at the end (or XP) as quickly as possible, not seeming to care about the people behind the avatar.
Maybe I'm "overthinking" this?
How much of a "social experience" is waiting in a server queue for 2 hours?
Zero. How much socialization go on while for players to show up outside the dungeon?
Point made. Thanks
PS: "Server Queue"? Am I misreading what you're talking about? Server Queues are about NOT even being the game, right? Or did I miss something?
Why do players need to wait at all to find something to do? If you want to insure a Dungeon Run, plan ahead. You've got Guilds, and people on forums, and players can do a lot more for themselves with a little planning.
Of course, Power Gaps restrict things quite a bit. That's what we here in Sandbox DreamLand call "Player Division" as it's coupled with "Rails."
WoW: Wotlk is coming out in 8 days. compared to the trash cans you've been digging in for a new MMO, WoW will be good.
They also aren't including the RDF, which is a requirement for me since I have limited time every day to play due to real life (career and wife/kid).
RDF didnt exist until the very last batch of dungeons released. it was about a year and a half after launch?
WotLK Classic is based on update 3.3.5
Dungeon Finder was introduced in update 3.3.0
So, WotLK should have Dungeon Finder. But, unfortunately, Blizzard was stupid and listened to the players and didn't include Dungeon Finder and now we have this server mess.
Also, what's "RDF"? Raid Dungeon Finder? Raid Finder wasn't until update 4.3.0 in Cataclysm.
By the looks of the queues, the folks pissed about LFD are in the clear minority.
The funny thing about trying to say that the LFD people are in the minority because of the queue times is that there being no cross server Dungeon Finder is what's causing the server over crowding and thus the queues.
No one wants to be left on a dead server and unable to find groups for dungeons. So, everyone is flooding into one server. We already saw this happen in Vanilla Classic and TBC Classic.
If they did put in a cross server Dungeon Finder people would still be able to find groups for dungeons even while on an under populated server and so, people would not need to flood into one server so there would be no queue time issues at all.
So, nice try but you get the DERP prize.
I think this illustrates quite well, the two main camps about "grouping" for dungeons and raids. One desires a more social experience and the other wants the loot at the end (or XP) as quickly as possible, not seeming to care about the people behind the avatar.
Maybe I'm "overthinking" this?
There are extremes with no chat and rush, rush and the equally anti-social situation of the one person who insists in going ultra slow when the rest of the group doesn't.
A good dungeon run with people you just met is to chat about the dungeon and go at a speed everyone is comfortable with and enjoys. No extra talk about real-world things required or wanted.
It's not hard. The only thing required is the willingness, flexibility and ability to "read the room."
The problems are usually all about someone (more often than not, the tank) who doesn't care about what the others want to do and just wants to do it their way.
That has zero to do with whether you formed the group in chat and walked uphill to get there or it was formed with an LFG tool and you got teleported. A selfish asshat can ruin the experience for all either way.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
I'm enjoying New World well enough, standard MMORPG gameplay at early levels (17 ATM)
You must definitely try out several weapon combos to find your favorite(s).
One of the strength of NW is "be what you want, not what you're told to be".
Err, any favorite combos? I'm totally winging it right now with a spear and ice gauntlet, the latter which I mostly use for those oh sh!t moments, drop an ice pylon and run the heck away.
Otherwise I just wack away with my spear skills, only two from the right side of the tree.
Works well enough, but now I'm putting points into the left side as there's an AOE skill I want there.
But.... Now the bad news... My gaming laptop crapped out, shipped it back to LA today so will be out of commission for a few weeks.
I'm trying to do a quick upgrade on my office desktop, bought a new video card only to find out power supply didn't have an 8 pin PCI.
Now waiting on new 500W power supply, which of course its proprietary since it's an HP and uses a 4 pin MB power connector, vs some other standard (12 pin?) the rest of industry uses.
Maybe I'll be back up by the weekend, otherwise might be a long wait.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I'm enjoying New World well enough, standard MMORPG gameplay at early levels (17 ATM)
You must definitely try out several weapon combos to find your favorite(s).
One of the strength of NW is "be what you want, not what you're told to be".
Err, any favorite combos? I'm totally winging it right now with a spear and ice gauntlet, the latter which I mostly use for those oh sh!t moments, drop an ice pylon and run the heck away.
Otherwise I just wack away with my spear skills, only two from the right side of the tree.
Works well enough, but now I'm putting points into the left side as there's an AOE skill I want there.
You usually want to use 2 weapons that share one of the stats for either its primary or secondary so you can focus on adding points to a couple of stats instead of spreading them out too much. There are some very nice bonuses for stacking enough of one stat at different amounts.
You can see the bonuses on the screen by just hovering your mouse over the stat breakpoints at 50, 100, 200, etc.
Having said that, I leveled as a healer with healing staff and ice gauntlet but added the totally off-spec hatchet to the mix because I hate stagger and the hatchet has a skill that gives you stagger immunity among other things. Hatchet and life staff was my solo build. Winging it is just fine
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
There are extremes with no chat and rush, rush and the equally anti-social situation of the one person who insists in going ultra slow when the rest of the group doesn't.
A good dungeon run with people you just met is to chat about the dungeon and go at a speed everyone is comfortable with and enjoys. No extra talk about real-world things required or wanted.
It's not hard. The only thing required is the willingness, flexibility and ability to "read the room."
The problems are usually all about someone (more often than not, the tank) who doesn't care about what the others want to do and just wants to do it their way.
That has zero to do with whether you formed the group in chat and walked uphill to get there or it was formed with an LFG tool and you got teleported. A selfish asshat can ruin the experience for all either way.
Speaking from experience: LFG tools with ports do, in fact, encourage completely silent, fast as possible dungeon runs, and it doesn't need an asshat in chat to trigger it, specifically when the pool is cross-realm/server.
That doesn't dictate that every run will be that way, but developers shouldn't design based merely on what is possible, but also what is probable and what their game systems encourage of the average gamer.
If the predominant way to progress as a player is queuing up, waiting for a pop, and rushing through 9 times out of 10, then there are much better games at that game loop than MMORPGs on both the PvE and PvP sides. Destiny 2. Deep Rock Galactic. The Hunt: Showdown. MOBAs. Battle Royales. Vermintide. Warframe. Hell Let Loose. Squad. Etc., Etc. Because at that point, you're essentially creating a session-based game.
Much better, imo, to focus on how to prevent "Instance running" from becoming the normal mode of progression in the first place.
There are extremes with no chat and rush, rush and the equally anti-social situation of the one person who insists in going ultra slow when the rest of the group doesn't.
A good dungeon run with people you just met is to chat about the dungeon and go at a speed everyone is comfortable with and enjoys. No extra talk about real-world things required or wanted.
It's not hard. The only thing required is the willingness, flexibility and ability to "read the room."
The problems are usually all about someone (more often than not, the tank) who doesn't care about what the others want to do and just wants to do it their way.
That has zero to do with whether you formed the group in chat and walked uphill to get there or it was formed with an LFG tool and you got teleported. A selfish asshat can ruin the experience for all either way.
Speaking from experience: LFG tools with ports do, in fact, encourage completely silent, fast as possible dungeon runs, and it doesn't need an asshat in chat to trigger it, specifically when the pool is cross-realm/server.
That doesn't dictate that every run will be that way, but developers shouldn't design based merely on what is possible, but what is probable and what their game systems encourage of the average gamer.
Speaking from very recent experience (as in more than 100 PUG dungeon runs last week due to an event that was all about that ) I can tell you that using an LFG + teleport system led to a variety of good and bad dungeon run experiences but mostly good.
It all comes down to individuals and their attitude toward group mates. It has zilch to do with how you got to the dungeon.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Speaking from experience: LFG tools with ports do, in fact, encourage completely silent, fast as possible dungeon runs, and it doesn't need an asshat in chat to trigger it, specifically when the pool is cross-realm/server.
That doesn't dictate that every run will be that way, but developers shouldn't design based merely on what is possible, but what is probable and what their game systems encourage of the average gamer.
Speaking from very recent experience (as in more than 100 PUG dungeon runs last week due to an event that was all about that
100 PUGs in a week?
That would probably be about 95 more than I've run since 2008 or so.
Hmm, that is probably 20 or 30 more than my total number of dungeon runs done with a group either in the same time frame, well, not counting fleeting up in EVE of course or Fallout 76 Queen fights.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Speaking from experience: LFG tools with ports do, in fact, encourage completely silent, fast as possible dungeon runs, and it doesn't need an asshat in chat to trigger it, specifically when the pool is cross-realm/server.
That doesn't dictate that every run will be that way, but developers shouldn't design based merely on what is possible, but what is probable and what their game systems encourage of the average gamer.
Speaking from very recent experience (as in more than 100 PUG dungeon runs last week due to an event that was all about that
100 PUGs in a week?
That would probably be about 95 more than I've run since 2008 or so.
Hmm, that is probably 20 or 30 more than my total number of dungeon runs done with a group either in the same time frame, well, not counting fleeting up in EVE of course or Fallout 76 Queen fights.
What can I say? I like playing with others.
When you queue for a random in ESO not only am I getting 1 of 50 dungeons (exactly 50 currently in fact--I just checked) but 3 other people with their own skill levels and personalities.
Doing that with the same insular little group would get to be very routine and boring pretty quickly. I like variety in my games.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
There are extremes with no chat and rush, rush and the equally anti-social situation of the one person who insists in going ultra slow when the rest of the group doesn't.
A good dungeon run with people you just met is to chat about the dungeon and go at a speed everyone is comfortable with and enjoys. No extra talk about real-world things required or wanted.
It's not hard. The only thing required is the willingness, flexibility and ability to "read the room."
The problems are usually all about someone (more often than not, the tank) who doesn't care about what the others want to do and just wants to do it their way.
That has zero to do with whether you formed the group in chat and walked uphill to get there or it was formed with an LFG tool and you got teleported. A selfish asshat can ruin the experience for all either way.
Speaking from experience: LFG tools with ports do, in fact, encourage completely silent, fast as possible dungeon runs, and it doesn't need an asshat in chat to trigger it, specifically when the pool is cross-realm/server.
That doesn't dictate that every run will be that way, but developers shouldn't design based merely on what is possible, but what is probable and what their game systems encourage of the average gamer.
Speaking from very recent experience (as in more than 100 PUG dungeon runs last week due to an event that was all about that ) I can tell you that using an LFG + teleport system led to a variety of good and bad dungeon run experiences but mostly good.
It all comes down to individuals and their attitude toward group mates. It has zilch to do with how you got to the dungeon.
Respectfully, I disagree. And again, I submit that it's not about what's strictly possible, but about what is encouraged by the game's design.
I could tell you about how I never got ganked in EVE, ever. But that doesn't change that the game's systems encourage that player mentality in a way other MMORPGs don't, or that the overall experience is altered based on that reality. I could tell you how nobody I ever talked to in game told me they supported ganking newbies, but it wouldn't change that newbies get ganked regularly because the game's systems are conducive to that reality.
Similarly, playing a Jedi on the Resto server I'm on will create player bounties. It's certainly possible that a Jedi only ever gets hunted by a single Bounty Hunter at a time, and that Bounty Hunter will allow the Jedi to finish their current battle before engaging, ensuring both sides enjoy the most fair encounter possible. However, the game's systems do not encourage or make that the norm. Multiple players can share a bounty. You get the bounty even if the player was engaged with a Rancor when you attacked. And a smart Bounty Hunter player will not take those things for granted, because the game is encouraging the opposite. Jedis on that server can and should expect gangs of Bounty Hunters to attack them at their most vulnerable points as a rule. I'm happy for any Jedi that doesn't endure that, for sure, but it changes nothing about how the game is designed, and it certainly doesn't prevent other Jedi from enduring it because that's the way the game was designed.
Most folks don't go into an MMORPG hoping to ignore the virtual world in favor of turning the game world into what is essentially a very big, very pretty matchmaking lobby. They treat WoW's open world leveling zones that way because the game systems have encouraged players to do so by making LFD queues, by far, the most efficient path to progression. None of that means there should be no quick travel- WoW included teleports before it ever considered LFG matchmaking via both Mages and Warlocks. It means the progression systems incentivize players to ignore most of the game's content in favor of replaying small slices over and over, as fast as they can, because that's the best way to progress in the game.
There are extremes with no chat and rush, rush and the equally anti-social situation of the one person who insists in going ultra slow when the rest of the group doesn't.
A good dungeon run with people you just met is to chat about the dungeon and go at a speed everyone is comfortable with and enjoys. No extra talk about real-world things required or wanted.
It's not hard. The only thing required is the willingness, flexibility and ability to "read the room."
The problems are usually all about someone (more often than not, the tank) who doesn't care about what the others want to do and just wants to do it their way.
That has zero to do with whether you formed the group in chat and walked uphill to get there or it was formed with an LFG tool and you got teleported. A selfish asshat can ruin the experience for all either way.
Speaking from experience: LFG tools with ports do, in fact, encourage completely silent, fast as possible dungeon runs, and it doesn't need an asshat in chat to trigger it, specifically when the pool is cross-realm/server.
That doesn't dictate that every run will be that way, but developers shouldn't design based merely on what is possible, but what is probable and what their game systems encourage of the average gamer.
Speaking from very recent experience (as in more than 100 PUG dungeon runs last week due to an event that was all about that ) I can tell you that using an LFG + teleport system led to a variety of good and bad dungeon run experiences but mostly good.
It all comes down to individuals and their attitude toward group mates. It has zilch to do with how you got to the dungeon.
Respectfully, I disagree. And again, I submit that it's not about what's strictly possible, but about what is encouraged by the game's design.
I could tell you about how I never got ganked in EVE, ever. But that doesn't change that the game's systems encourage that player mentality in a way other MMORPGs don't, or that the overall experience is altered based on that reality. I could tell you how nobody I ever talked to in game told me they supported tanking newbies, but it wouldn't change that newbies get ganked regularly because the game's systems are conducive to that reality.
Similarly, playing a Jedi on the Resto server I'm on will create player bounties. It's certainly possible that a Jedi only ever gets hunted by a single Bounty Hunter at a time, and that Bounty Hunter will allow the Jedi to finish their current battle before engaging, ensuring both sides enjoy the most fair encounter possible. However, the game's systems do not encourage or make that the norm. Multiple players can share a bounty. You get the bounty even if the player was engaged with a Rancor when you attacked. And a smart Bounty Hunter player will not take those things for granted, because the game is encouraging the opposite. Jedis on that server can and should expect gangs of Bounty Hunters to attack them at their most vulnerable points as a rule. I'm happy for any Jedi that doesn't endure that, for sure, but it changes nothing about how the game is designed, and it certainly doesn't prevent other Jedi from enduring it because that's the way the game was designed.
I'm not talking about exceptions to things encouraged by the game, I'm talking about actual, hands-on, experience of running literally thousands of dungeons in various games with LFG + teleport systems and I'm saying that the experience of running those dungeons with strangers is actually good.
You can choose to believe that I'm lying if you wish but I'm not theorizing, I'm reporting on actual things. LFG+ teleport does no harm to the interpersonal dynamics of the dungeon experience from what I have seen in my vast experience doing them.
Obnoxious and selfish individuals? Yeah, they cause problems.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
There are extremes with no chat and rush, rush and the equally anti-social situation of the one person who insists in going ultra slow when the rest of the group doesn't.
A good dungeon run with people you just met is to chat about the dungeon and go at a speed everyone is comfortable with and enjoys. No extra talk about real-world things required or wanted.
It's not hard. The only thing required is the willingness, flexibility and ability to "read the room."
The problems are usually all about someone (more often than not, the tank) who doesn't care about what the others want to do and just wants to do it their way.
That has zero to do with whether you formed the group in chat and walked uphill to get there or it was formed with an LFG tool and you got teleported. A selfish asshat can ruin the experience for all either way.
Speaking from experience: LFG tools with ports do, in fact, encourage completely silent, fast as possible dungeon runs, and it doesn't need an asshat in chat to trigger it, specifically when the pool is cross-realm/server.
That doesn't dictate that every run will be that way, but developers shouldn't design based merely on what is possible, but what is probable and what their game systems encourage of the average gamer.
Speaking from very recent experience (as in more than 100 PUG dungeon runs last week due to an event that was all about that ) I can tell you that using an LFG + teleport system led to a variety of good and bad dungeon run experiences but mostly good.
It all comes down to individuals and their attitude toward group mates. It has zilch to do with how you got to the dungeon.
Respectfully, I disagree. And again, I submit that it's not about what's strictly possible, but about what is encouraged by the game's design.
I could tell you about how I never got ganked in EVE, ever. But that doesn't change that the game's systems encourage that player mentality in a way other MMORPGs don't, or that the overall experience is altered based on that reality. I could tell you how nobody I ever talked to in game told me they supported tanking newbies, but it wouldn't change that newbies get ganked regularly because the game's systems are conducive to that reality.
Similarly, playing a Jedi on the Resto server I'm on will create player bounties. It's certainly possible that a Jedi only ever gets hunted by a single Bounty Hunter at a time, and that Bounty Hunter will allow the Jedi to finish their current battle before engaging, ensuring both sides enjoy the most fair encounter possible. However, the game's systems do not encourage or make that the norm. Multiple players can share a bounty. You get the bounty even if the player was engaged with a Rancor when you attacked. And a smart Bounty Hunter player will not take those things for granted, because the game is encouraging the opposite. Jedis on that server can and should expect gangs of Bounty Hunters to attack them at their most vulnerable points as a rule. I'm happy for any Jedi that doesn't endure that, for sure, but it changes nothing about how the game is designed, and it certainly doesn't prevent other Jedi from enduring it because that's the way the game was designed.
I'm not talking about exceptions to things encouraged by the game, I'm talking about actual, hands-on, experience of running literally thousands of dungeons in various games with LFG + teleport systems and I'm saying that the experience of running those dungeons with strangers is actually good.
You can choose to believe that I'm lying if you wish but I'm not theorizing, I'm reporting on actual things. LFG+ teleport does no harm to the interpersonal dynamics of the dungeon experience from what I have seen in my vast experience doing them.
Obnoxious and selfish individuals? Yeah, they cause problems.
We've had very different experiences, then.
Edit-- I should clarify that I never claimed you were lying, and I also never claimed that players couldn't find silent dungeon runs an enjoyable experience. However, my most social experiences in WoW were original and Classic WoW. I played Retail WoW across the past 3 expacs and leveled multiple toons using LFD, and I can tell you for sure I enjoyed far less opportunities for interpersonal dynamics in retail than I did in those Classic experiences. Additionally, I've found the SWG servers I'm on to offer infinitely more interpersonal experiences than any of the modern MMORPGs I've played. Again, that isn't conjecture - like you, it's based on actual experience.
There are extremes with no chat and rush, rush and the equally anti-social situation of the one person who insists in going ultra slow when the rest of the group doesn't.
A good dungeon run with people you just met is to chat about the dungeon and go at a speed everyone is comfortable with and enjoys. No extra talk about real-world things required or wanted.
It's not hard. The only thing required is the willingness, flexibility and ability to "read the room."
The problems are usually all about someone (more often than not, the tank) who doesn't care about what the others want to do and just wants to do it their way.
That has zero to do with whether you formed the group in chat and walked uphill to get there or it was formed with an LFG tool and you got teleported. A selfish asshat can ruin the experience for all either way.
Speaking from experience: LFG tools with ports do, in fact, encourage completely silent, fast as possible dungeon runs, and it doesn't need an asshat in chat to trigger it, specifically when the pool is cross-realm/server.
That doesn't dictate that every run will be that way, but developers shouldn't design based merely on what is possible, but what is probable and what their game systems encourage of the average gamer.
Speaking from very recent experience (as in more than 100 PUG dungeon runs last week due to an event that was all about that ) I can tell you that using an LFG + teleport system led to a variety of good and bad dungeon run experiences but mostly good.
It all comes down to individuals and their attitude toward group mates. It has zilch to do with how you got to the dungeon.
Respectfully, I disagree. And again, I submit that it's not about what's strictly possible, but about what is encouraged by the game's design.
I could tell you about how I never got ganked in EVE, ever. But that doesn't change that the game's systems encourage that player mentality in a way other MMORPGs don't, or that the overall experience is altered based on that reality. I could tell you how nobody I ever talked to in game told me they supported tanking newbies, but it wouldn't change that newbies get ganked regularly because the game's systems are conducive to that reality.
Similarly, playing a Jedi on the Resto server I'm on will create player bounties. It's certainly possible that a Jedi only ever gets hunted by a single Bounty Hunter at a time, and that Bounty Hunter will allow the Jedi to finish their current battle before engaging, ensuring both sides enjoy the most fair encounter possible. However, the game's systems do not encourage or make that the norm. Multiple players can share a bounty. You get the bounty even if the player was engaged with a Rancor when you attacked. And a smart Bounty Hunter player will not take those things for granted, because the game is encouraging the opposite. Jedis on that server can and should expect gangs of Bounty Hunters to attack them at their most vulnerable points as a rule. I'm happy for any Jedi that doesn't endure that, for sure, but it changes nothing about how the game is designed, and it certainly doesn't prevent other Jedi from enduring it because that's the way the game was designed.
I'm not talking about exceptions to things encouraged by the game, I'm talking about actual, hands-on, experience of running literally thousands of dungeons in various games with LFG + teleport systems and I'm saying that the experience of running those dungeons with strangers is actually good.
You can choose to believe that I'm lying if you wish but I'm not theorizing, I'm reporting on actual things. LFG+ teleport does no harm to the interpersonal dynamics of the dungeon experience from what I have seen in my vast experience doing them.
Obnoxious and selfish individuals? Yeah, they cause problems.
We've had very different experiences, then.
Edit-- I should clarify that I never claimed you were lying, and I also never claimed that players couldn't find silent dungeon runs an enjoyable experience. However, my most social experiences in WoW were original and Classic WoW. I played Retail WoW across the past 3 expacs and leveled multiple toons using LFD, and I can tell you for sure I enjoyed far less opportunities for interpersonal dynamics in retail than I did in those Classic experiences. Additionally, I've found the SWG servers I'm on to offer infinitely more interpersonal experiences than any of the modern MMORPGs I've played. Again, that isn't conjecture - like you, it's based on actual experience.
I never said you called me a liar. I said you can choose to believe that I'm lying
I agree that the dungeon experience in early WoW was more fun and there was much more communication but that was because the game was newish, more coordination was required with a CC specialist also in the mix, not just the 3 modern roles, and the fights were tuned to be harder and last longer. You needed to communicate because those game mechanics demanded it.
But that had nothing to do with how the group was formed or how you got there. It's a different issue altogether.
It's also one of the reasons I like New World expeditions (dungeons) as much as I do. The mobs, bosses, many mini-bosses, and other mechanics in there also demand communication (and built-in voice chat to facilitate it.) They even have a lot of locked door puzzles so there's no running past stuff in those until you unlock the next area.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
I never said you called me a liar. I said you can choose to believe that I'm lying
I agree that the dungeon experience in early WoW was more fun and there was much more communication but that was because the game was newish, more coordination was required with a CC specialist also in the mix, not just the 3 modern roles, and the fights were tuned to be harder and last longer. You needed to communicate because those game mechanics demanded it.
But that had nothing to do with how the group was formed or how you got there. It's a different issue altogether.
It's also one of the reasons I like New World expeditions (dungeons) as much as I do. The mobs, bosses, many mini-bosses, and other mechanics in there also demand communication (and built-in voice chat to facilitate it.) They even have a lot of locked door puzzles so there's no running past stuff in those until you unlock the next area.
I like that they've decided to include mechanics beyond clearing up to and through a series of bosses. I don't like games where your weapons determine your abilities, so I can't get into NW myself.
However, I will quibble with your claim it has nothing to do with how groups are formed or getting there. Classic WoW presented the same dungeons, but it also presented me the same level of interpersonal experience as original did. Sure, there were also boosters because gamers had min/maxed builds and mob AI to death, but that was not the majority of players.
What I saw encourage that interpersonal action the most was truly the server community and content difficulty both in instances and in the open world. You went slower through dungeons than in retail, even with great gear. And folks still talk about Grobbulus as a server community- it's still one of the premier server communities in classic WoW, one of the most referenced. It exists as its own entity, whereas cross-server LFD in retail renders one's server a redundant suffix to their namelates.
There really is a delicate balance between the massively multiplayer part, and what I would term an intimate community, that fosters the strongest and most reliable social bonds between gamer groups. My SWG server has cliches based on whether one is an Imp or Rebel, and the rivalry between the two serves to foster stronger bonds within each. We recognize people and guilds, and we have opinions of them based on prior interactions.
Edit-- I skimmed the part where you mentioned content tuning was part of the reason folks communicated more in classic/original WoW. On that we agree! But it would've been degraded by a system in which players are blindly matched. Folks have less patience with new/lower skilled players if those players can be replaced in seconds or minutes by an automated process. It devalues the individual player in favor of turning them into merely a role.
The devaluation isn't limited to video games, either. Check out the effect dating apps like Tinder have had on dating in general. More convenience is not always the answer to a problem.
There are extremes with no chat and rush, rush and the equally anti-social situation of the one person who insists in going ultra slow when the rest of the group doesn't.
A good dungeon run with people you just met is to chat about the dungeon and go at a speed everyone is comfortable with and enjoys. No extra talk about real-world things required or wanted.
It's not hard. The only thing required is the willingness, flexibility and ability to "read the room."
The problems are usually all about someone (more often than not, the tank) who doesn't care about what the others want to do and just wants to do it their way.
That has zero to do with whether you formed the group in chat and walked uphill to get there or it was formed with an LFG tool and you got teleported. A selfish asshat can ruin the experience for all either way.
Speaking from experience: LFG tools with ports do, in fact, encourage completely silent, fast as possible dungeon runs, and it doesn't need an asshat in chat to trigger it, specifically when the pool is cross-realm/server.
That doesn't dictate that every run will be that way, but developers shouldn't design based merely on what is possible, but what is probable and what their game systems encourage of the average gamer.
Speaking from very recent experience (as in more than 100 PUG dungeon runs last week due to an event that was all about that ) I can tell you that using an LFG + teleport system led to a variety of good and bad dungeon run experiences but mostly good.
It all comes down to individuals and their attitude toward group mates. It has zilch to do with how you got to the dungeon.
Respectfully, I disagree. And again, I submit that it's not about what's strictly possible, but about what is encouraged by the game's design.
I could tell you about how I never got ganked in EVE, ever. But that doesn't change that the game's systems encourage that player mentality in a way other MMORPGs don't, or that the overall experience is altered based on that reality. I could tell you how nobody I ever talked to in game told me they supported tanking newbies, but it wouldn't change that newbies get ganked regularly because the game's systems are conducive to that reality.
Similarly, playing a Jedi on the Resto server I'm on will create player bounties. It's certainly possible that a Jedi only ever gets hunted by a single Bounty Hunter at a time, and that Bounty Hunter will allow the Jedi to finish their current battle before engaging, ensuring both sides enjoy the most fair encounter possible. However, the game's systems do not encourage or make that the norm. Multiple players can share a bounty. You get the bounty even if the player was engaged with a Rancor when you attacked. And a smart Bounty Hunter player will not take those things for granted, because the game is encouraging the opposite. Jedis on that server can and should expect gangs of Bounty Hunters to attack them at their most vulnerable points as a rule. I'm happy for any Jedi that doesn't endure that, for sure, but it changes nothing about how the game is designed, and it certainly doesn't prevent other Jedi from enduring it because that's the way the game was designed.
I'm not talking about exceptions to things encouraged by the game, I'm talking about actual, hands-on, experience of running literally thousands of dungeons in various games with LFG + teleport systems and I'm saying that the experience of running those dungeons with strangers is actually good.
You can choose to believe that I'm lying if you wish but I'm not theorizing, I'm reporting on actual things. LFG+ teleport does no harm to the interpersonal dynamics of the dungeon experience from what I have seen in my vast experience doing them.
Obnoxious and selfish individuals? Yeah, they cause problems.
Ahh, now I understand why I never get in any groups.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
There are extremes with no chat and rush, rush and the equally anti-social situation of the one person who insists in going ultra slow when the rest of the group doesn't.
A good dungeon run with people you just met is to chat about the dungeon and go at a speed everyone is comfortable with and enjoys. No extra talk about real-world things required or wanted.
It's not hard. The only thing required is the willingness, flexibility and ability to "read the room."
The problems are usually all about someone (more often than not, the tank) who doesn't care about what the others want to do and just wants to do it their way.
That has zero to do with whether you formed the group in chat and walked uphill to get there or it was formed with an LFG tool and you got teleported. A selfish asshat can ruin the experience for all either way.
Speaking from experience: LFG tools with ports do, in fact, encourage completely silent, fast as possible dungeon runs, and it doesn't need an asshat in chat to trigger it, specifically when the pool is cross-realm/server.
That doesn't dictate that every run will be that way, but developers shouldn't design based merely on what is possible, but what is probable and what their game systems encourage of the average gamer.
Speaking from very recent experience (as in more than 100 PUG dungeon runs last week due to an event that was all about that ) I can tell you that using an LFG + teleport system led to a variety of good and bad dungeon run experiences but mostly good.
It all comes down to individuals and their attitude toward group mates. It has zilch to do with how you got to the dungeon.
Respectfully, I disagree. And again, I submit that it's not about what's strictly possible, but about what is encouraged by the game's design.
I could tell you about how I never got ganked in EVE, ever. But that doesn't change that the game's systems encourage that player mentality in a way other MMORPGs don't, or that the overall experience is altered based on that reality. I could tell you how nobody I ever talked to in game told me they supported tanking newbies, but it wouldn't change that newbies get ganked regularly because the game's systems are conducive to that reality.
Similarly, playing a Jedi on the Resto server I'm on will create player bounties. It's certainly possible that a Jedi only ever gets hunted by a single Bounty Hunter at a time, and that Bounty Hunter will allow the Jedi to finish their current battle before engaging, ensuring both sides enjoy the most fair encounter possible. However, the game's systems do not encourage or make that the norm. Multiple players can share a bounty. You get the bounty even if the player was engaged with a Rancor when you attacked. And a smart Bounty Hunter player will not take those things for granted, because the game is encouraging the opposite. Jedis on that server can and should expect gangs of Bounty Hunters to attack them at their most vulnerable points as a rule. I'm happy for any Jedi that doesn't endure that, for sure, but it changes nothing about how the game is designed, and it certainly doesn't prevent other Jedi from enduring it because that's the way the game was designed.
I'm not talking about exceptions to things encouraged by the game, I'm talking about actual, hands-on, experience of running literally thousands of dungeons in various games with LFG + teleport systems and I'm saying that the experience of running those dungeons with strangers is actually good.
You can choose to believe that I'm lying if you wish but I'm not theorizing, I'm reporting on actual things. LFG+ teleport does no harm to the interpersonal dynamics of the dungeon experience from what I have seen in my vast experience doing them.
Obnoxious and selfish individuals? Yeah, they cause problems.
Everyone has different experiences. You can literally be in the same group and 1 person says it sucked, another said it was great, and the third doesn't remember being in a group.
There are extremes with no chat and rush, rush and the equally anti-social situation of the one person who insists in going ultra slow when the rest of the group doesn't.
A good dungeon run with people you just met is to chat about the dungeon and go at a speed everyone is comfortable with and enjoys. No extra talk about real-world things required or wanted.
It's not hard. The only thing required is the willingness, flexibility and ability to "read the room."
The problems are usually all about someone (more often than not, the tank) who doesn't care about what the others want to do and just wants to do it their way.
That has zero to do with whether you formed the group in chat and walked uphill to get there or it was formed with an LFG tool and you got teleported. A selfish asshat can ruin the experience for all either way.
Speaking from experience: LFG tools with ports do, in fact, encourage completely silent, fast as possible dungeon runs, and it doesn't need an asshat in chat to trigger it, specifically when the pool is cross-realm/server.
That doesn't dictate that every run will be that way, but developers shouldn't design based merely on what is possible, but what is probable and what their game systems encourage of the average gamer.
Speaking from very recent experience (as in more than 100 PUG dungeon runs last week due to an event that was all about that ) I can tell you that using an LFG + teleport system led to a variety of good and bad dungeon run experiences but mostly good.
It all comes down to individuals and their attitude toward group mates. It has zilch to do with how you got to the dungeon.
Respectfully, I disagree. And again, I submit that it's not about what's strictly possible, but about what is encouraged by the game's design.
I could tell you about how I never got ganked in EVE, ever. But that doesn't change that the game's systems encourage that player mentality in a way other MMORPGs don't, or that the overall experience is altered based on that reality. I could tell you how nobody I ever talked to in game told me they supported tanking newbies, but it wouldn't change that newbies get ganked regularly because the game's systems are conducive to that reality.
Similarly, playing a Jedi on the Resto server I'm on will create player bounties. It's certainly possible that a Jedi only ever gets hunted by a single Bounty Hunter at a time, and that Bounty Hunter will allow the Jedi to finish their current battle before engaging, ensuring both sides enjoy the most fair encounter possible. However, the game's systems do not encourage or make that the norm. Multiple players can share a bounty. You get the bounty even if the player was engaged with a Rancor when you attacked. And a smart Bounty Hunter player will not take those things for granted, because the game is encouraging the opposite. Jedis on that server can and should expect gangs of Bounty Hunters to attack them at their most vulnerable points as a rule. I'm happy for any Jedi that doesn't endure that, for sure, but it changes nothing about how the game is designed, and it certainly doesn't prevent other Jedi from enduring it because that's the way the game was designed.
I'm not talking about exceptions to things encouraged by the game, I'm talking about actual, hands-on, experience of running literally thousands of dungeons in various games with LFG + teleport systems and I'm saying that the experience of running those dungeons with strangers is actually good.
You can choose to believe that I'm lying if you wish but I'm not theorizing, I'm reporting on actual things. LFG+ teleport does no harm to the interpersonal dynamics of the dungeon experience from what I have seen in my vast experience doing them.
Obnoxious and selfish individuals? Yeah, they cause problems.
Everyone has different experiences. You can literally be in the same group and 1 person says it sucked, another said it was great, and the third doesn't remember being in a group.
Yes. I wondered what all the players in all 100 PUGs thought of the experience.
One can assume that most enjoyed it since they decided to play the game and participate in the event
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
There are extremes with no chat and rush, rush and the equally anti-social situation of the one person who insists in going ultra slow when the rest of the group doesn't.
A good dungeon run with people you just met is to chat about the dungeon and go at a speed everyone is comfortable with and enjoys. No extra talk about real-world things required or wanted.
It's not hard. The only thing required is the willingness, flexibility and ability to "read the room."
The problems are usually all about someone (more often than not, the tank) who doesn't care about what the others want to do and just wants to do it their way.
That has zero to do with whether you formed the group in chat and walked uphill to get there or it was formed with an LFG tool and you got teleported. A selfish asshat can ruin the experience for all either way.
Speaking from experience: LFG tools with ports do, in fact, encourage completely silent, fast as possible dungeon runs, and it doesn't need an asshat in chat to trigger it, specifically when the pool is cross-realm/server.
That doesn't dictate that every run will be that way, but developers shouldn't design based merely on what is possible, but what is probable and what their game systems encourage of the average gamer.
Speaking from very recent experience (as in more than 100 PUG dungeon runs last week due to an event that was all about that ) I can tell you that using an LFG + teleport system led to a variety of good and bad dungeon run experiences but mostly good.
It all comes down to individuals and their attitude toward group mates. It has zilch to do with how you got to the dungeon.
Respectfully, I disagree. And again, I submit that it's not about what's strictly possible, but about what is encouraged by the game's design.
I could tell you about how I never got ganked in EVE, ever. But that doesn't change that the game's systems encourage that player mentality in a way other MMORPGs don't, or that the overall experience is altered based on that reality. I could tell you how nobody I ever talked to in game told me they supported tanking newbies, but it wouldn't change that newbies get ganked regularly because the game's systems are conducive to that reality.
Similarly, playing a Jedi on the Resto server I'm on will create player bounties. It's certainly possible that a Jedi only ever gets hunted by a single Bounty Hunter at a time, and that Bounty Hunter will allow the Jedi to finish their current battle before engaging, ensuring both sides enjoy the most fair encounter possible. However, the game's systems do not encourage or make that the norm. Multiple players can share a bounty. You get the bounty even if the player was engaged with a Rancor when you attacked. And a smart Bounty Hunter player will not take those things for granted, because the game is encouraging the opposite. Jedis on that server can and should expect gangs of Bounty Hunters to attack them at their most vulnerable points as a rule. I'm happy for any Jedi that doesn't endure that, for sure, but it changes nothing about how the game is designed, and it certainly doesn't prevent other Jedi from enduring it because that's the way the game was designed.
I'm not talking about exceptions to things encouraged by the game, I'm talking about actual, hands-on, experience of running literally thousands of dungeons in various games with LFG + teleport systems and I'm saying that the experience of running those dungeons with strangers is actually good.
You can choose to believe that I'm lying if you wish but I'm not theorizing, I'm reporting on actual things. LFG+ teleport does no harm to the interpersonal dynamics of the dungeon experience from what I have seen in my vast experience doing them.
Obnoxious and selfish individuals? Yeah, they cause problems.
Everyone has different experiences. You can literally be in the same group and 1 person says it sucked, another said it was great, and the third doesn't remember being in a group.
Yes. I wondered what all the players in all 100 PUGs thought of the experience.
One can assume that most enjoyed it since they decided to play the game and participate in the event
Ha, I guarantee, in a large group like this, you'll have some that are on the verge of mental collapse, a few megalomaniacs who are convinced that the game would have lost, if not for their brilliant leadership, another group of psychopaths that you need to glad can't find you, because YOU single handily coat the game.
There are extremes with no chat and rush, rush and the equally anti-social situation of the one person who insists in going ultra slow when the rest of the group doesn't.
A good dungeon run with people you just met is to chat about the dungeon and go at a speed everyone is comfortable with and enjoys. No extra talk about real-world things required or wanted.
It's not hard. The only thing required is the willingness, flexibility and ability to "read the room."
The problems are usually all about someone (more often than not, the tank) who doesn't care about what the others want to do and just wants to do it their way.
That has zero to do with whether you formed the group in chat and walked uphill to get there or it was formed with an LFG tool and you got teleported. A selfish asshat can ruin the experience for all either way.
Speaking from experience: LFG tools with ports do, in fact, encourage completely silent, fast as possible dungeon runs, and it doesn't need an asshat in chat to trigger it, specifically when the pool is cross-realm/server.
That doesn't dictate that every run will be that way, but developers shouldn't design based merely on what is possible, but what is probable and what their game systems encourage of the average gamer.
Speaking from very recent experience (as in more than 100 PUG dungeon runs last week due to an event that was all about that ) I can tell you that using an LFG + teleport system led to a variety of good and bad dungeon run experiences but mostly good.
It all comes down to individuals and their attitude toward group mates. It has zilch to do with how you got to the dungeon.
Respectfully, I disagree. And again, I submit that it's not about what's strictly possible, but about what is encouraged by the game's design.
I could tell you about how I never got ganked in EVE, ever. But that doesn't change that the game's systems encourage that player mentality in a way other MMORPGs don't, or that the overall experience is altered based on that reality. I could tell you how nobody I ever talked to in game told me they supported tanking newbies, but it wouldn't change that newbies get ganked regularly because the game's systems are conducive to that reality.
Similarly, playing a Jedi on the Resto server I'm on will create player bounties. It's certainly possible that a Jedi only ever gets hunted by a single Bounty Hunter at a time, and that Bounty Hunter will allow the Jedi to finish their current battle before engaging, ensuring both sides enjoy the most fair encounter possible. However, the game's systems do not encourage or make that the norm. Multiple players can share a bounty. You get the bounty even if the player was engaged with a Rancor when you attacked. And a smart Bounty Hunter player will not take those things for granted, because the game is encouraging the opposite. Jedis on that server can and should expect gangs of Bounty Hunters to attack them at their most vulnerable points as a rule. I'm happy for any Jedi that doesn't endure that, for sure, but it changes nothing about how the game is designed, and it certainly doesn't prevent other Jedi from enduring it because that's the way the game was designed.
I'm not talking about exceptions to things encouraged by the game, I'm talking about actual, hands-on, experience of running literally thousands of dungeons in various games with LFG + teleport systems and I'm saying that the experience of running those dungeons with strangers is actually good.
You can choose to believe that I'm lying if you wish but I'm not theorizing, I'm reporting on actual things. LFG+ teleport does no harm to the interpersonal dynamics of the dungeon experience from what I have seen in my vast experience doing them.
Obnoxious and selfish individuals? Yeah, they cause problems.
Everyone has different experiences. You can literally be in the same group and 1 person says it sucked, another said it was great, and the third doesn't remember being in a group.
Yes. I wondered what all the players in all 100 PUGs thought of the experience.
One can assume that most enjoyed it since they decided to play the game and participate in the event
Most people are not shy about expressing disgust, quitting in a huff, or commenting on good things if they had fun. I take that into account when talking about good runs or bad runs.
Good try for you both trying to turn this into just being my rose-colored glasses and missing the point of the large volume of experience.
Try again.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
There are extremes with no chat and rush, rush and the equally anti-social situation of the one person who insists in going ultra slow when the rest of the group doesn't.
A good dungeon run with people you just met is to chat about the dungeon and go at a speed everyone is comfortable with and enjoys. No extra talk about real-world things required or wanted.
It's not hard. The only thing required is the willingness, flexibility and ability to "read the room."
The problems are usually all about someone (more often than not, the tank) who doesn't care about what the others want to do and just wants to do it their way.
That has zero to do with whether you formed the group in chat and walked uphill to get there or it was formed with an LFG tool and you got teleported. A selfish asshat can ruin the experience for all either way.
Speaking from experience: LFG tools with ports do, in fact, encourage completely silent, fast as possible dungeon runs, and it doesn't need an asshat in chat to trigger it, specifically when the pool is cross-realm/server.
That doesn't dictate that every run will be that way, but developers shouldn't design based merely on what is possible, but what is probable and what their game systems encourage of the average gamer.
Speaking from very recent experience (as in more than 100 PUG dungeon runs last week due to an event that was all about that ) I can tell you that using an LFG + teleport system led to a variety of good and bad dungeon run experiences but mostly good.
It all comes down to individuals and their attitude toward group mates. It has zilch to do with how you got to the dungeon.
Respectfully, I disagree. And again, I submit that it's not about what's strictly possible, but about what is encouraged by the game's design.
I could tell you about how I never got ganked in EVE, ever. But that doesn't change that the game's systems encourage that player mentality in a way other MMORPGs don't, or that the overall experience is altered based on that reality. I could tell you how nobody I ever talked to in game told me they supported tanking newbies, but it wouldn't change that newbies get ganked regularly because the game's systems are conducive to that reality.
Similarly, playing a Jedi on the Resto server I'm on will create player bounties. It's certainly possible that a Jedi only ever gets hunted by a single Bounty Hunter at a time, and that Bounty Hunter will allow the Jedi to finish their current battle before engaging, ensuring both sides enjoy the most fair encounter possible. However, the game's systems do not encourage or make that the norm. Multiple players can share a bounty. You get the bounty even if the player was engaged with a Rancor when you attacked. And a smart Bounty Hunter player will not take those things for granted, because the game is encouraging the opposite. Jedis on that server can and should expect gangs of Bounty Hunters to attack them at their most vulnerable points as a rule. I'm happy for any Jedi that doesn't endure that, for sure, but it changes nothing about how the game is designed, and it certainly doesn't prevent other Jedi from enduring it because that's the way the game was designed.
I'm not talking about exceptions to things encouraged by the game, I'm talking about actual, hands-on, experience of running literally thousands of dungeons in various games with LFG + teleport systems and I'm saying that the experience of running those dungeons with strangers is actually good.
You can choose to believe that I'm lying if you wish but I'm not theorizing, I'm reporting on actual things. LFG+ teleport does no harm to the interpersonal dynamics of the dungeon experience from what I have seen in my vast experience doing them.
Obnoxious and selfish individuals? Yeah, they cause problems.
Everyone has different experiences. You can literally be in the same group and 1 person says it sucked, another said it was great, and the third doesn't remember being in a group.
Yes. I wondered what all the players in all 100 PUGs thought of the experience.
One can assume that most enjoyed it since they decided to play the game and participate in the event
Most people are not shy about expressing disgust, quitting in a huff, or commenting on good things if they had fun. I take that into account when talking about good runs or bad runs.
Good try for you both trying to turn this into just being my rose-colored glasses and missing the point of the large volume of experience.
Try again.
I'm not "trying" anything. I was curios is all. Usually, a "one person account" is dismissed outright by the usual "lack of evidence" defense. (trying to recall the specific term used to illustrate ONE piece of data used as an overall proof...)
Like I said, I assume that most players shared your opinion since they chose to partake, too
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
@AlBQuirky Argument from Anecdote Also called anecdotal argument or anecdotal evidence. It's a hard argument to move away from in many cases. It's natural to build perspective from personal experience even if contradicted by broader data, just because that data hasn't been personally experienced.
As it applies to the present conversation, I'm disinclined to offer an opinion on that part. I'd only be speaking from personal experience on that matter as well and grouping in games like ESO tends to lean towards just sprinting dailies and the other players not really mattering. I'll carry a PUG if I have to.
Comments
How much of a "social experience" is waiting in a server queue for 2 hours?
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
If you want to insure a Dungeon Run, plan ahead. You've got Guilds, and people on forums, and players can do a lot more for themselves with a little planning.
Of course, Power Gaps restrict things quite a bit. That's what we here in Sandbox DreamLand call "Player Division" as it's coupled with "Rails."
Once upon a time....
A good dungeon run with people you just met is to chat about the dungeon and go at a speed everyone is comfortable with and enjoys. No extra talk about real-world things required or wanted.
It's not hard. The only thing required is the willingness, flexibility and ability to "read the room."
The problems are usually all about someone (more often than not, the tank) who doesn't care about what the others want to do and just wants to do it their way.
That has zero to do with whether you formed the group in chat and walked uphill to get there or it was formed with an LFG tool and you got teleported. A selfish asshat can ruin the experience for all either way.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Otherwise I just wack away with my spear skills, only two from the right side of the tree.
Works well enough, but now I'm putting points into the left side as there's an AOE skill I want there.
But.... Now the bad news... My gaming laptop crapped out, shipped it back to LA today so will be out of commission for a few weeks.
I'm trying to do a quick upgrade on my office desktop, bought a new video card only to find out power supply didn't have an 8 pin PCI.
Now waiting on new 500W power supply, which of course its proprietary since it's an HP and uses a 4 pin MB power connector, vs some other standard (12 pin?) the rest of industry uses.
Maybe I'll be back up by the weekend, otherwise might be a long wait.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
You can see the bonuses on the screen by just hovering your mouse over the stat breakpoints at 50, 100, 200, etc.
Having said that, I leveled as a healer with healing staff and ice gauntlet but added the totally off-spec hatchet to the mix because I hate stagger and the hatchet has a skill that gives you stagger immunity among other things. Hatchet and life staff was my solo build. Winging it is just fine
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
That doesn't dictate that every run will be that way, but developers shouldn't design based merely on what is possible, but also what is probable and what their game systems encourage of the average gamer.
If the predominant way to progress as a player is queuing up, waiting for a pop, and rushing through 9 times out of 10, then there are much better games at that game loop than MMORPGs on both the PvE and PvP sides. Destiny 2. Deep Rock Galactic. The Hunt: Showdown. MOBAs. Battle Royales. Vermintide. Warframe. Hell Let Loose. Squad. Etc., Etc. Because at that point, you're essentially creating a session-based game.
Much better, imo, to focus on how to prevent "Instance running" from becoming the normal mode of progression in the first place.
It all comes down to individuals and their attitude toward group mates. It has zilch to do with how you got to the dungeon.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
That would probably be about 95 more than I've run since 2008 or so.
Hmm, that is probably 20 or 30 more than my total number of dungeon runs done with a group either in the same time frame, well, not counting fleeting up in EVE of course or Fallout 76 Queen fights.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
When you queue for a random in ESO not only am I getting 1 of 50 dungeons (exactly 50 currently in fact--I just checked) but 3 other people with their own skill levels and personalities.
Doing that with the same insular little group would get to be very routine and boring pretty quickly. I like variety in my games.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
I could tell you about how I never got ganked in EVE, ever. But that doesn't change that the game's systems encourage that player mentality in a way other MMORPGs don't, or that the overall experience is altered based on that reality. I could tell you how nobody I ever talked to in game told me they supported ganking newbies, but it wouldn't change that newbies get ganked regularly because the game's systems are conducive to that reality.
Similarly, playing a Jedi on the Resto server I'm on will create player bounties. It's certainly possible that a Jedi only ever gets hunted by a single Bounty Hunter at a time, and that Bounty Hunter will allow the Jedi to finish their current battle before engaging, ensuring both sides enjoy the most fair encounter possible. However, the game's systems do not encourage or make that the norm. Multiple players can share a bounty. You get the bounty even if the player was engaged with a Rancor when you attacked. And a smart Bounty Hunter player will not take those things for granted, because the game is encouraging the opposite. Jedis on that server can and should expect gangs of Bounty Hunters to attack them at their most vulnerable points as a rule. I'm happy for any Jedi that doesn't endure that, for sure, but it changes nothing about how the game is designed, and it certainly doesn't prevent other Jedi from enduring it because that's the way the game was designed.
Most folks don't go into an MMORPG hoping to ignore the virtual world in favor of turning the game world into what is essentially a very big, very pretty matchmaking lobby. They treat WoW's open world leveling zones that way because the game systems have encouraged players to do so by making LFD queues, by far, the most efficient path to progression. None of that means there should be no quick travel- WoW included teleports before it ever considered LFG matchmaking via both Mages and Warlocks. It means the progression systems incentivize players to ignore most of the game's content in favor of replaying small slices over and over, as fast as they can, because that's the best way to progress in the game.
You can choose to believe that I'm lying if you wish but I'm not theorizing, I'm reporting on actual things. LFG+ teleport does no harm to the interpersonal dynamics of the dungeon experience from what I have seen in my vast experience doing them.
Obnoxious and selfish individuals? Yeah, they cause problems.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Edit-- I should clarify that I never claimed you were lying, and I also never claimed that players couldn't find silent dungeon runs an enjoyable experience. However, my most social experiences in WoW were original and Classic WoW. I played Retail WoW across the past 3 expacs and leveled multiple toons using LFD, and I can tell you for sure I enjoyed far less opportunities for interpersonal dynamics in retail than I did in those Classic experiences. Additionally, I've found the SWG servers I'm on to offer infinitely more interpersonal experiences than any of the modern MMORPGs I've played. Again, that isn't conjecture - like you, it's based on actual experience.
I agree that the dungeon experience in early WoW was more fun and there was much more communication but that was because the game was newish, more coordination was required with a CC specialist also in the mix, not just the 3 modern roles, and the fights were tuned to be harder and last longer. You needed to communicate because those game mechanics demanded it.
But that had nothing to do with how the group was formed or how you got there. It's a different issue altogether.
It's also one of the reasons I like New World expeditions (dungeons) as much as I do. The mobs, bosses, many mini-bosses, and other mechanics in there also demand communication (and built-in voice chat to facilitate it.) They even have a lot of locked door puzzles so there's no running past stuff in those until you unlock the next area.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
However, I will quibble with your claim it has nothing to do with how groups are formed or getting there. Classic WoW presented the same dungeons, but it also presented me the same level of interpersonal experience as original did. Sure, there were also boosters because gamers had min/maxed builds and mob AI to death, but that was not the majority of players.
What I saw encourage that interpersonal action the most was truly the server community and content difficulty both in instances and in the open world. You went slower through dungeons than in retail, even with great gear. And folks still talk about Grobbulus as a server community- it's still one of the premier server communities in classic WoW, one of the most referenced. It exists as its own entity, whereas cross-server LFD in retail renders one's server a redundant suffix to their namelates.
There really is a delicate balance between the massively multiplayer part, and what I would term an intimate community, that fosters the strongest and most reliable social bonds between gamer groups. My SWG server has cliches based on whether one is an Imp or Rebel, and the rivalry between the two serves to foster stronger bonds within each. We recognize people and guilds, and we have opinions of them based on prior interactions.
Edit-- I skimmed the part where you mentioned content tuning was part of the reason folks communicated more in classic/original WoW. On that we agree! But it would've been degraded by a system in which players are blindly matched. Folks have less patience with new/lower skilled players if those players can be replaced in seconds or minutes by an automated process. It devalues the individual player in favor of turning them into merely a role.
The devaluation isn't limited to video games, either. Check out the effect dating apps like Tinder have had on dating in general. More convenience is not always the answer to a problem.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Good try for you both trying to turn this into just being my rose-colored glasses and missing the point of the large volume of experience.
Try again.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Argument from Anecdote
Also called anecdotal argument or anecdotal evidence. It's a hard argument to move away from in many cases. It's natural to build perspective from personal experience even if contradicted by broader data, just because that data hasn't been personally experienced.
As it applies to the present conversation, I'm disinclined to offer an opinion on that part. I'd only be speaking from personal experience on that matter as well and grouping in games like ESO tends to lean towards just sprinting dailies and the other players not really mattering. I'll carry a PUG if I have to.