Good PvE?

Gorwe

Lately I've been thinking: "what is it exactly that makes an MMO's PvE good". I came to this question because I often talk about Warhammer Online with its rabid PvP fans(it's kinda obvious what makes a good PvP, but if you want, we could discuss that later too) and ... besides them being PvP players and WAR's PvE being dropped by Mythic(for a bloody good business reason), what is there actually impacted the entire genre, perhaps even whole of gamingdom to a significant degree(Public Quests? Tome of Knowledge?). And it always had more of PvE, but, funnily enough, not as an endgame. Is the "endgame" really so important?

So, what differentiates bad PvE from average PvE and average PvE from good PvE? Besides $$$$$, obviously. Off topic: sometimes not even billions can help you, see: Rings of Power.

AlBQuirky

Good from bad PvE?

It is based on how it all fits together for me. It's not any ONE singular feature or activity. In fact, more activities one can partake in the better for me.

End Game?

For me, "end game" means just that: The end of the game. This when I make s new avatar (aka an alt) and start again. Raids are too hectic for me. Dungeons are fun for awhile, but once "mastered", there is no more point for me playing them, unless I'm helping friends/guild mates. When/If new content drops, I'll it a play with older, higher level character.

Scot

AlBQuirky said:

Good from bad PvE?

It is based on how it all fits together for me. It's not any ONE singular feature or activity. In fact, more activities one can partake in the better for me.

End Game?

For me, "end game" means just that: The end of the game. This when I make s new avatar (aka an alt) and start again. Raids are too hectic for me. Dungeons are fun for awhile, but once "mastered", there is no more point for me playing them, unless I'm helping friends/guild mates. When/If new content drops, I'll it a play with older, higher level character.

The trick is having gameplay systems at top level to keep players entertained, it is not easy and the many game flounder. SWTOR had a battleground, added sign up PvP scenarios and the BG was deserted. Many players didn't even know it existed. NW seems to have focused too much on one system, it isn't easy to get right.

Sovrath

For me I thought Tera's "BAMs" were great pve. More interesting and involved  fights.

I've recently restarted "Middle Earth: Shadow of War" and I absolutely love the fights one can get in, getting surrounded, having ranged join in, perhaps a Captain join is.

I wish more MMORPG's had those types of encounters.

Mendel

For me, good PvE is distinguished by some kind of meaning or purpose behind the fight.  That meaning could be from a quest (killing the mob because it is part of the quest requirement, not because of its loot) or (rarer) from an an overarching story.

A good example (and probably my current favorite) is the Run to Daylight quest in Old Blackburrow in EQ1.  There's a guard that you meet inside the dungeon, and you have to escort him past a lot of mobs to get him safely to the zone exit.  This quest is also part of the overarching progression story line for the Seeds of Destruction expansion, so it hits both of by requirements.

edit: paragraph added

Dattelis

'Good' PvE to me is a bit more ambiguous but I've floated towards the idea of 'being more important than the story' as it were. When I phrase it like that, I mean that I always saw the story as a vehicle that led me into more 'serious' situations that were yet to be explored. Kind of like how many old PS1 rpgs had almost a secret boss in each title that would tend to be more power than the final boss of the game. So when mmorpgs have 'big' fights that aren't usually tied to a main story (like world bosses or side dungeons/raids/etc) then I kind of view those as 'good.' Plus it can make the game feel more alive when you're seeing people flood into areas to try and take them down.

Gorwe

AlBQuirky said:

Good from bad PvE?

It is based on how it all fits together for me. It's not any ONE singular feature or activity. In fact, more activities one can partake in the better for me.

End Game?

For me, "end game" means just that: The end of the game. This when I make s new avatar (aka an alt) and start again. Raids are too hectic for me. Dungeons are fun for awhile, but once "mastered", there is no more point for me playing them, unless I'm helping friends/guild mates. When/If new content drops, I'll it a play with older, higher level character.

I'll agree about the endgame treadmill. It's a hyper nonsense to me. I just want to create a new character and experience new ... experiences. Why'd I keep doing one and the same experience over and over again, that gets super old, super fast. At least for me it does.

Sovrath said:

For me I thought Tera's "BAMs" were great pve. More interesting and involved  fights.

I've recently restarted "Middle Earth: Shadow of War" and I absolutely love the fights one can get in, getting surrounded, having ranged join in, perhaps a Captain join is.

I wish more MMORPG's had those types of encounters.

Even if those fights lead nowhere except more xp than a standard mob? What if they gave LESS xp per unit of time than an average mob? Would you still consider it "good PvE"?

delete5230

Any PvE that's not so easy it's built for 7 year old's and and below like ESO. 

Unfortunately every mmorpg is built like that anymore for some reasion

Uwakionna

Not sure what you're attributing to Warhammer Online there, Tabula Rasa had similar mechanics for dynamic public quests that affected the state of the whole zone and tome of knowledge a year prior. 

As far as the question goes, good PvE for me would be when a game can offer a consistent level of engagement and "puzzle solving". Biggest problem I have with many MMOs is how little I have to pay attention to the combat in order to succeed. If I can mentally check out in the middle of a fight, then the game is not keeping my attention.

And that's bad when the combat is the core loop of most games.

That's in part where puzzle solving comes in. A game does not need high-action combat to be engaging, it needs to give you cause to think. Even if on a basic level, you need to have curveballs and some variables which you have to watch for and react accordingly to which breaks up the usual routine.

KnightFalz

What differentiates good PvE from average or bad is that you feel it so.

KnightFalz

delete5230 said:

Any PvE that's not so easy it's built for 7 year old's and and below like ESO. 

Unfortunately every mmorpg is built like that anymore for some reasion

Your ignorance over ESO has been noted by many. Nothing you say about it has merit.

Sovrath

Gorwe said:

AlBQuirky said:

Good from bad PvE?

It is based on how it all fits together for me. It's not any ONE singular feature or activity. In fact, more activities one can partake in the better for me.

End Game?

For me, "end game" means just that: The end of the game. This when I make s new avatar (aka an alt) and start again. Raids are too hectic for me. Dungeons are fun for awhile, but once "mastered", there is no more point for me playing them, unless I'm helping friends/guild mates. When/If new content drops, I'll it a play with older, higher level character.

I'll agree about the endgame treadmill. It's a hyper nonsense to me. I just want to create a new character and experience new ... experiences. Why'd I keep doing one and the same experience over and over again, that gets super old, super fast. At least for me it does.

Sovrath said:

For me I thought Tera's "BAMs" were great pve. More interesting and involved  fights.

I've recently restarted "Middle Earth: Shadow of War" and I absolutely love the fights one can get in, getting surrounded, having ranged join in, perhaps a Captain join is.

I wish more MMORPG's had those types of encounters.

Even if those fights lead nowhere except more xp than a standard mob? What if they gave LESS xp per unit of time than an average mob? Would you still consider it "good PvE"?

That's part of my problem with the whole mmorpg thing. Everyone is doing it for "rewards." Better gear, better weapons and armor "moar xp."

What if fights didn't give xp but you just had to take whatever they had on them?

Because, if it's about the "xp" then it just goes back to what I've said about mobs (of any kind) for years: "they are just powerups."

Might as well just have a player level automatically over time played or some such thing.

What about mobs that matter? They are constantly attacking an outpose or raiding a trading route so they must be dealt with.

Instead, "pve" seems to boil down to mobs standing around in a field (or whatever) waiting for a player to destroy it so they can "power up."

Just boring.

I don't really pay attention to how xp is given in Shadow of Mordor but I can tell you that I don't sit there and count up the kills for orcs killed so that I can estimate my xp. I just have a blast, sometimes getting overwhelmed, running away, healing up, coming back and essentially playing for the fun.

I still like leveling up and getting better gear but it has to be fun.

Sovrath

I'll add, in Tera, I could have been doing quests for better xp but I preferred fighting the BAMS as they were at least fun.

delete5230

KnightFalz said:

delete5230 said:

Any PvE that's not so easy it's built for 7 year old's and and below like ESO. 

Unfortunately every mmorpg is built like that anymore for some reasion

Your ignorance over ESO has been noted by many. Nothing you say about it has merit.

A monkey can play this, cant you see that ?
I found this video at random in less than one minute. 
Do You Like The Combat System In ESO? | Elder Scrolls Online - YouTube

Sovrath

delete5230 said:

KnightFalz said:

delete5230 said:

Any PvE that's not so easy it's built for 7 year old's and and below like ESO. 

Unfortunately every mmorpg is built like that anymore for some reasion

Your ignorance over ESO has been noted by many. Nothing you say about it has merit.

A monkey can play this, cant you see that ?
I found this video at random in less than one minute. 
Do You Like The Combat System In ESO? | Elder Scrolls Online - YouTube

Did you watch the video?

That he says that one reason players  don't like the combat is "weaving and animation canceling" and even though he doesn't find it difficult he realizes that many players will find it difficult and would prefer to just use the skills as they come.

So you're saying a monkey can "weave and animation cancel" in order to maximize their combat effectiveness?

While you might have found the video in less than a minute it took me a minute and 38 seconds to learn that first point in a 6 minute video.

cameltosis

What determines good PvE? For me, there are the following things:

1) The player determines the outcome

By this, I mean that success or failure is entirely dependent on what the player does. In an action combat game, this means I'll win if I block/dodge/attack at the right times, or fail if I miss a block. In a tactical game, this means winning if I use the right skill at the right time, or fail if I forget to use my "oh shit" skills.

This is the opposite of combat that is based more on stats. Whilst I enjoy a good meta-game, I don't want combat to be determined primarily by the meta-game.

2) There are multiple routes to success

This point is all about the game being open to whatever your playstyle is, but also helps with replayability. If the game supports multiple playstyles then im gonna have more fun, rather than being forced down a specific gear / spec / playstyle route that may not suit me. Enrage timers are the enemy!

3) A great input <--> feedback loop

This encompasses UI design, animations and sounds. The game needs to provide me with a variety of information so that I can plan and react properly, and not obscure the actual fight with dodgy UI elements or crappy viewpoints or over-the-top effects.

4) A range of difficulties

I don't know about the rest of you, but my skill at any given game changes over time. As my skill goes up (or down...), there needs to be content to match my skill level. I'm looking for "achievable challenges", content I can beat only if im playing well. Also, sometimes I just wanna chill out with easy stuff!

5) Exciting enemy aesthetics and locations

A big part of my motivation for PvE is searching out the coolest enemies to fight. I get bored with wolves, bears and humans, give me exciting monsters! I want to fight that Balrog, I want to fight the big cave troll. Location is nearly as important, but location is more about motivating me to explore an area, rather than being important to the combat itself.

cameltosis

Also, im really curious why WAR has been mentioned in relation to good PvE. WAR's PvE sucked balls, the only thing it had going for it was great aesthetics.

Most of WAR's depth came from it's CC, all of which was useless in PvE. The public quests were generally shit, the only good thing was the drop-in / drop-out nature of forming groups for the PQ. The UI design was awful, there were so many buffs and debuffs that they didn't really factor into decision making, u just put them into your rotation and hoped for the best.

Also, there was so much vertical progression that success or failure was more about your gear than your skill.

Finally, the 2-2-2 role setup (2 tanks, 2 healers and 2 dps per 6man group) made it a bit of a nightmare trying to form groups. Granted, WAR had better tanks and healers than other games, but they were still less played than DPS. Requiring 2/3rds of your community to play unpopular roles wasn't smart.

Gorwe

cameltosis said:

Also, im really curious why WAR has been mentioned in relation to good PvE. WAR's PvE sucked balls, the only thing it had going for it was great aesthetics.

Most of WAR's depth came from it's CC, all of which was useless in PvE. The public quests were generally shit, the only good thing was the drop-in / drop-out nature of forming groups for the PQ. The UI design was awful, there were so many buffs and debuffs that they didn't really factor into decision making, u just put them into your rotation and hoped for the best.

Also, there was so much vertical progression that success or failure was more about your gear than your skill.

Finally, the 2-2-2 role setup (2 tanks, 2 healers and 2 dps per 6man group) made it a bit of a nightmare trying to form groups. Granted, WAR had better tanks and healers than other games, but they were still less played than DPS. Requiring 2/3rds of your community to play unpopular roles wasn't smart.

Great aesthetics it had(has). Now, some of these things aren't true. Idk for dungeons, but you can knock down most enemies, extending stuff like Taunt, for example. So, no, it isn't useless in PvE. But it depends on which CC we are talking about. I mean, it was(is) a simple game. I keep saying that more classes needed to be designed like, idk, Marauder. Fully solo capable, useful in groups...take Chosen. Would it really hurt anyone if he had that AoE, idk, at level 15 or something? Or other stuff. Leading most to conclude that for the most of the game, Knight is better. Which honestly? It is.

Fully agreed about the vertical progression, it was too steep and that helped kill ... everything! Especially something like PvP shouldn't rely on gear any more than some procs and some general strategy. The amount of stats WAR had was ... beyond ridiculous.

But, damn me if the gameplay isn't fun in its braindead state once it actually goes live so to speak. The game becomes more like Diablo, fun gameplay, sure. But the entire design of classes is ... I've never seen such a mess.

With that said, I'd really like a proper Warhammer Fantasy (MMO)RPG. WAR was ... a good attempt. Nothing more imo.

Theocritus

If winning is in question and death is a possibility, then its good PVE...If it just mind numbing button mashing or following a pre-scripted story,  then it is not going to be good PVE.

Quizzical

What makes PVE in an MMO good is the same basic thing as makes any other sort of gameplay good:  lots of interesting gameplay decisions.  Players need to make a lot of non-trivial choices that substantially affect the outcome.  It could be twitchy reactions, strategic choices, cooperative teamwork, various other things, or a combination of several types of things.  But the decisions need to be interesting as opposed to always choosing the same thing, and they need to substantially affect the outcome.

KnightFalz

delete5230 said:

KnightFalz said:

delete5230 said:

Any PvE that's not so easy it's built for 7 year old's and and below like ESO. 

Unfortunately every mmorpg is built like that anymore for some reasion

Your ignorance over ESO has been noted by many. Nothing you say about it has merit.

A monkey can play this, cant you see that ?
I found this video at random in less than one minute. 
Do You Like The Combat System In ESO? | Elder Scrolls Online - YouTube

I know a monkey can watch it.

Get back to me when you can do it and then tell me how easy it is.

Scot

Sovrath said:

delete5230 said:

KnightFalz said:

delete5230 said:

Any PvE that's not so easy it's built for 7 year old's and and below like ESO. 

Unfortunately every mmorpg is built like that anymore for some reasion

Your ignorance over ESO has been noted by many. Nothing you say about it has merit.

A monkey can play this, cant you see that ?
I found this video at random in less than one minute. 
Do You Like The Combat System In ESO? | Elder Scrolls Online - YouTube

Did you watch the video?

That he says that one reason players  don't like the combat is "weaving and animation canceling" and even though he doesn't find it difficult he realizes that many players will find it difficult and would prefer to just use the skills as they come.

So you're saying a monkey can "weave and animation cancel" in order to maximize their combat effectiveness?

While you might have found the video in less than a minute it took me a minute and 38 seconds to learn that first point in a 6 minute video.

Some find it difficult but not many I would hazard. For me it was just so yesteryear, animation canceling should be a thing of the past, like bunny jumping in a FPS game. I felt the same about TSW's original combat system, it reminded me of old bash them up games.