I don't know how this can be a real question. The market is filthy with old school MMOs that are doing well. They even brought back classic WoW. There are the emulators for SWG and others. Runescape, everquest.....
You have to remember there is a huge population of people who grew up with these and want to play them. You also have to remember they have greater buying power than younger audiences. So they can affort to support these.
Is There Still a Market for 'Oldschool' MMORPGs? YES! It's a very niche crowd though. IMO
My mind follow that, but my hearth goes, I hope not there is a market because
I still hope for a "Newschool Mmorpg".
And what actual makes me sad is that this discussion looks like it is about old vs new in terms nostalgia vs money grabbing. And for me that is hardly productive.
I am still hopeful to the borderline naive, about that there is something in this genre that has not been explored and developed.
Something that can bring back the wonder and mystery, and engagement that could be found in the old worlds.
And the recipe for that is imho no longer to make a bigger new world, because the tools of reddit, streamers, discord and so on , do change the way those worlds are perceived before they are even experienced by most. And any argument about what you can do by yourself (ignoring this influence) miss the point of the multiplayer agenda that is attraktive salespoint in the first hand.
My logic is that the recipe must be to make a so dynamic changing world, that beta (or first weeks of powergaming ) have not "solved" the mysteries the game have to offer. And that we avoid that the game goes dormant until an expansion hits, because each week there is something new for everyone to engage with, and be together about.
This is where my "naive" thoughts about mmo's still have something new to bring we haven't seen yet, mostly go to.
I've been hunting for that "right" MMO for what seems like almost a decade now. Sure games like FF held my attention for a minute- but I feel the same way as a lot of these commenters on here.
Today we are missing that valued challenge to the mmo. The reason we want to be in a MMO in the first place is to play with other people, not solo our way up to some self-proclaiming legendary story line/gameplay.
We don't need to be all smoking aces out there. We need that class dependency, that symbiotic relationship between players, that drive and need to team up and take on some challenging mobs.
I MISS MOB PULLS!!!
Early days EQ when you had to plan your pulls, WIPE, replan your pulls, WIPE AGAIN, PLAN FURTHER AND PRAY TO GOD, WIN...
Where having players soley to control the battlefield, and not deal/heal damage.
Where we aren't just looking for the biggest fattest number you can think for damage or stats.
Where I walked into ONE particular zone, and it was like walking through a flipping bazaar/market because hundreds of people were trying to sell their loot and materials.
Where If I wanted to go somewhere, I either had to find someone with the spell to teleport me, or plan a trip on the boat!!!
Games now a days either rush you to end game content then flood you with a paywall or a grind, or start with a continuous grind.
Grinds do not equal challenges my Shareholders.
Wtb SoW
I've been hunting for that "right" MMO for what seems like almost a decade now. Sure games like FF held my attention for a minute- but I feel the same way as a lot of these commenters on here.
Today we are missing that valued challenge to the mmo. The reason we want to be in a MMO in the first place is to play with other people, not solo our way up to some self-proclaiming legendary story line/gameplay.
We don't need to be all smoking aces out there. We need that class dependency, that symbiotic relationship between players, that drive and need to team up and take on some challenging mobs.
I MISS MOB PULLS!!!
Early days EQ when you had to plan your pulls, WIPE, replan your pulls, WIPE AGAIN, PLAN FURTHER AND PRAY TO GOD, WIN...
Where having players soley to control the battlefield, and not deal/heal damage.
Where we aren't just looking for the biggest fattest number you can think for damage or stats.
Where I walked into ONE particular zone, and it was like walking through a flipping bazaar/market because hundreds of people were trying to sell their loot and materials.
Where If I wanted to go somewhere, I either had to find someone with the spell to teleport me, or plan a trip on the boat!!!
Games now a days either rush you to end game content then flood you with a paywall or a grind, or start with a continuous grind.
Grinds do not equal challenges my Shareholders.
Wtb SoW
Oldschool MMO players were massive back then because most MMOs were designed the same. Nowadays they only count a fraction of it since most have already moved on from gaming and focused on life.
So when a new oldschool MMO is being developed, they can only target such a small playerbase. Unless, there's a publisher who'd be willing to invest in graphics and combat to entice new/young playerbase.
Considering that you included Final Fantasy XIV as an old school MMORPG, I would say that since it is the most popular game in the world at the moment, old school MMORPGs have nothing to worry about.
There definitely is a market for that, there are still many antisocial freaks who just want to play MMOs as a pure "old school" grinding simulators (where you grind killing dumb AI monsters in open world/dungeons/raids who always follow same pre-programmed attack patterns, or grind crafting/gathering using macro commands and third-party addons, in a semi-AFK state while watching Netflix on your second monitor/TV) and who see other players only as their personal "disposable dungeon/raid grinding slave" or a personal "buyer of crafted/gathered resources".
Thing is, as a developer you won't get a lot of income by catering towards such players, especially since there are plenty of similar games right now, so if you want to maximize your income - you should ALWAYS strive to make your game more accessible to more people with different gameplay preferences, with more tools given to players to create their own original content (instead of making yet another generic grind simulator). Of course, if you don't care about maximizing your income and don't care about the popularity of your game - then sure, you can continue with releasing yet another "old school" grind simulator.
Honestly, it wouldn't be a bad idea for the genre to split into sub-genres mirroring the single-player genres. I think Destiny and The Division has had moderate to good success in modern times representing the FPS genre and you have plenty of survival MMORPG's. If developers can forget about create a massive mediocre game that caters to everyone, but pleases no one, and instead laser focuses on whatever particular niche they want to develop content for, I believe you'll have less unhappy people and developers.
People will learn to stick to the genre's they're happiest with and you won't need to have casual vs hardcore wars, or PvP vs PvE wars, or hard content vs face roll content wars, and so on. Developers also need to quit designing their games to waste a player's time. If your game is good, players will come back when content is released and would even pay for the privilege. Who really enjoys doing daily quests or grinding reputations?
Well, a sizable chunk of players plays WOW classic, although calling WOW old school is a bit of a stretch. so yeah there's some interest.
Not me though. I like a lot of the things that are trendy to hate when old MMO vets congregate: fast-paced action combat, lean skill bars, fast travel, LFG, etc.
About the only thing of old-school MMOs I wish would make a comeback is the all-inclusive sub-model. I hate the modern, piecemeal, nickle and diming.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Short Version: Yes, the market exists...sorta. EQ1 itself would not re-sell to anyone today who was not already a fan, however EQ1 with modern QoL such as fast travel, better OoC recovery, and community-building features probably would. A more solo-able EQ1 that still encourages group play without compromising on being non-instanced would be a big hit, I feel.
A market exists for those games, same as a market exists for cRPGs that meld the past design paradigms with modern UIs and control schemes.
There isn't a market for "old school" MMORPGs that neglect the lessons learned by the industry over the years in terms of UI feedback to the player (specifically regarding game mechanics and systems), or for games that neglect to implement modern control schemes and other technical QoL features.
The biggest difference between these two genres is how much it costs to make one vs. the other, and how you can continuously monetize one vs. the other.
There were some things that old school MMORPGs did well, other things they did poorly.
Overall I feel that old school MMORPGs did a better job at providing depth and complexity, as well as creating systems that fostered better quality communities. These in turn resulted in better long term retention.
But, they often had quite clunky combat and the user interfaces were often terrible. New user onboarding was often shakey.
So, theres not a clear cut winner, it really depends on what sort of player you are. If you prefer being part of a community, setting yourself long term goals, if you enjoy learning and getting really stuck into the mechanics, then old school is for you. If you prefer a shallower, more approachable experience that requires less committment, then new school is for you.
And I definitely believe that there will always be a market for both. There will always be gamers looking for deep, long term experiences, just as there will always be gamers looking for simple drop-in-drop-out experiences.
Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr7X Black Orc | Scrotling rr6X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr4X Shaman
That has always been a significant issue. None of the games, either new or old, contain a clear and concise idea of 'how to catch up'. If you start later than someone else, they will always be ahead of you, no matter what you use to measure - progression, skill or gear. The only viable way to catch up is for the new player to play continuously while the existing player stops playing.
Some games, even old school games like EQ, have offered Upgraded or High Level characters to entice new players to join or older players to rejoin. It doesn't really work to increase the number of players, though. It appears that the only people taking advantage of this type of feature are those already playing, and want to catch up. Since these character Upgrades are often a paid feature, it can make even older games seem a bit P2W.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
That has always been a significant issue. None of the games, either new or old, contain a clear and concise idea of 'how to catch up'. If you start later than someone else, they will always be ahead of you, no matter what you use to measure - progression, skill or gear. The only viable way to catch up is for the new player to play continuously while the existing player stops playing.
Some games, even old school games like EQ, have offered Upgraded or High Level characters to entice new players to join or older players to rejoin. It doesn't really work to increase the number of players, though. It appears that the only people taking advantage of this type of feature are those already playing, and want to catch up. Since these character Upgrades are often a paid feature, it can make even older games seem a bit P2W.
This is something that's inevitable with the idea of permanence. Even in the relatively new SWGEmu server, new players will struggle to compete with the resources of the day one folks.
However, that game benefits from the fact that player power is capped pretty quickly, because it's a virtual world game about economy, combat, and player interaction. The "endgame" isn't a gear treadmill, it's participating in the Galactic Civil War somehow, either via offering services to players, selling crafted items to other players, or directly fighting in the war.
There's always a market for good old school mmos, rpgs, games, anything.
I recently got into.... dunno the actual genre, lets just call it Vampire Survivors.
I've played a ton of similar games, some of them almost carbon copies. And what I've found is the beautiful, perfect ui, game I'd think would be the end all, didn't even hold a candle to the crappy copy people say was abandoned by its dev (some similar games).
These old school mmos dont have bad uis, or generally shittyness of the bygone eras. They have what most new games lack. Which is FUN. (They might have all that too, but fun trumps all).
I personally don't know what it is that makes these game enjoyable. But go back and play NES games, SEGA games. SOME of them, even without good uis, stories, or even graphics, maintain something that keeps me coming back. While, nowadays, many, if not most, modern games don't.
I think that more people enjoy action combat and the games that are based on the old gameplay will not find enough players to be very successful any more. Things have changed a lot as time marches on from Everquest 1 and AC 1.
Well, a sizable chunk of players plays WOW classic, although calling WOW old school is a bit of a stretch. so yeah there's some interest.
Not me though. I like a lot of the things that are trendy to hate when old MMO vets congregate: fast-paced action combat, lean skill bars, fast travel, LFG, etc.
About the only thing of old-school MMOs I wish would make a comeback is the all-inclusive sub-model. I hate the modern, piecemeal, nickle and diming.
I thought you played UO???
" fast-paced action combat" By "action combat", people must be referring to the targeting mechanism? But UO's was plenty fast, and included timing even more so than what I've seen in modern games because you had to really stay tuned into the action with lots of timed actions pretty much all of the time. Watching New World's combat videos appears to be very similar to UO's, action wise. UO could have used special attacks earlier on, which they added some years after release. Even without that, though, the action all inclusive was very fast.
"lean skill bars" Do you mean just having a few choices? UO had keyboard mapping so that you could use all but a few keys to set up macros for all things you could do. If you want it lean in that sense, you could do that too. Most players didn't use many actions anyways.
"fast travel" UO had the best fast travel system I've ever seen. Permanent Gate, Gate spell, recall spell, mark runes spell, scrolls that required little mage skill for all but Gate spells. Fast travel was no problem at all. Also a short range teleport spell.
"LFG" Bah, you went to your Guild headquarters and met up with your mates. If that didn't work, you just went to a place and usually there were other players around. There wasn't any "group system" so you could play with anyone.
I don't really get lumping UO, AC, and EQ together in any conversations. They were each quite unique.
It's pretty obvious that talking about Old School games as new games is all about the very poor quality of the efforts to remake old school games over the years. At best, you got some games that were pretty good at some few things, mainly combat, but very lacking at all of the other stuff.
I didn't play is, but I have heard that Shadowbane had a very good design, except for bugs and a few important bad decisions (like flying over castle walls freely?). That game could probably be in this conversation as yet another unique game.
Nope. Couldn't stand the top-down perspective for an MMO and still can't. I played Asheron's Call and DAoC after that.
" fast-paced action combat" By "action combat", people must be referring to the targeting mechanism?
Nope. Action combat is all about active defenses for blocks, dodges, etc. instead of being abstracted into the damage calculations. They do tend to be faster-paced, have loose targeting done by your facing, and have short TTKs but that's not what defines it.
"lean skill bars" Do you mean just having a few choices?
No. I mean having a lot of choices including the choice of which few skills to slot for use at any given time. Kind of like Mages had to do in D&D but applied to everyone and for the same reason: it adds an extra layer of choice/strategy and fosters build diversity.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
For those of us still playing 'mostly' MMO type games, absolutely. I hear the arguments against the old school/traditional MMO's, and have agreed with many them and stopped playing those MMO's for said reasons. However, 4 of the top 5 most played MMO's, right now, are 'old school'/traditional style MMO's. FFXIV, Old School Runescape, WoW and WoW classic. So as much as these style MMO games are poo pooed on they still dominate the market and nothing made since FFXIV have came close to dethroning any of these much hated MMO's. s
So yeah there is a want/need and if done right, it will not be niche.
If by "old school MMORPG" we understand cluttered UI, uninspired 2 frames-based animations, dated 3D graphics, clumsy gameplay, slow-motion movement, and overall lack of QoL, then please...
Do not count me in.
Or you can be one of the graphics snobs who are never satisfied and only play where the masses play......
Yes there is a market for them. I for one started with UO in 97, then DAoC, WAR, etc. Every MMO at this point in time will have its specific community regardless, some like old school with separated pvp, otehrs like old school with open pvp, others like new style with instanced pvp, others want instanced pve, others enjoy small scale match style content, others want massive warfare without instanced warfare, other like hybrid, some hate crafting, others enjoy complicated crafting, etc.
Not a single MMO can provide all the play styles to every player. Back in the 90s and early 2000s the amount of MMO's could be counted with one hand, that's why their population was so massive. Now there are so many that it spreads the MMO community and creates what its being called as "niche". It's just different play styles for different player bases.
There will always be a market for old school MMORPG, the question is how long they will last. In a PvE centric MMO it all comes down to providing "new" content periodically, not just adding different difficulties to the same content. For PvP if it's open PvP it comes down to retaining population, when there's no one to kill the game becomes boring, and so on.
Also don't forget that there's a market that enjoys the "daily" model, that others find that becomes a second job.
Why hasn't everquest 1 been remade using Unreal Engine 5? Can someone please buy Life is Fuedal: Your Own, and update it? Can some rich folks please Update Darkfall's graphics and add meaningful PVE and more transport options? Can Henrick please finish Mortal Online 2 and focus on quality of life enhancements and easter eggs?
Comments
You have to remember there is a huge population of people who grew up with these and want to play them. You also have to remember they have greater buying power than younger audiences. So they can affort to support these.
My mind follow that, but my hearth goes, I hope not there is a market because
I still hope for a "Newschool Mmorpg".
And what actual makes me sad is that this discussion looks like it is about old vs new in terms nostalgia vs money grabbing. And for me that is hardly productive.
I am still hopeful to the borderline naive, about that there is something in this genre that has not been explored and developed.
Something that can bring back the wonder and mystery, and engagement that could be found in the old worlds.
And the recipe for that is imho no longer to make a bigger new world, because the tools of reddit, streamers, discord and so on , do change the way those worlds are perceived before they are even experienced by most. And any argument about what you can do by yourself (ignoring this influence) miss the point of the multiplayer agenda that is attraktive salespoint in the first hand.
My logic is that the recipe must be to make a so dynamic changing world, that beta (or first weeks of powergaming ) have not "solved" the mysteries the game have to offer. And that we avoid that the game goes dormant until an expansion hits, because each week there is something new for everyone to engage with, and be together about.
This is where my "naive" thoughts about mmo's still have something new to bring we haven't seen yet, mostly go to.
Today we are missing that valued challenge to the mmo. The reason we want to be in a MMO in the first place is to play with other people, not solo our way up to some self-proclaiming legendary story line/gameplay.
We don't need to be all smoking aces out there. We need that class dependency, that symbiotic relationship between players, that drive and need to team up and take on some challenging mobs.
I MISS MOB PULLS!!!
Early days EQ when you had to plan your pulls, WIPE, replan your pulls, WIPE AGAIN, PLAN FURTHER AND PRAY TO GOD, WIN...
Where having players soley to control the battlefield, and not deal/heal damage.
Where we aren't just looking for the biggest fattest number you can think for damage or stats.
Where I walked into ONE particular zone, and it was like walking through a flipping bazaar/market because hundreds of people were trying to sell their loot and materials.
Where If I wanted to go somewhere, I either had to find someone with the spell to teleport me, or plan a trip on the boat!!!
Games now a days either rush you to end game content then flood you with a paywall or a grind, or start with a continuous grind.
Grinds do not equal challenges my Shareholders.
Wtb SoW
So when a new oldschool MMO is being developed, they can only target such a small playerbase. Unless, there's a publisher who'd be willing to invest in graphics and combat to entice new/young playerbase.
Thing is, as a developer you won't get a lot of income by catering towards such players, especially since there are plenty of similar games right now, so if you want to maximize your income - you should ALWAYS strive to make your game more accessible to more people with different gameplay preferences, with more tools given to players to create their own original content (instead of making yet another generic grind simulator). Of course, if you don't care about maximizing your income and don't care about the popularity of your game - then sure, you can continue with releasing yet another "old school" grind simulator.
The last MMORPG I played was World of Warcraft when it first launched.
After that... it's all junk.
People will learn to stick to the genre's they're happiest with and you won't need to have casual vs hardcore wars, or PvP vs PvE wars, or hard content vs face roll content wars, and so on. Developers also need to quit designing their games to waste a player's time. If your game is good, players will come back when content is released and would even pay for the privilege. Who really enjoys doing daily quests or grinding reputations?
Not me though. I like a lot of the things that are trendy to hate when old MMO vets congregate: fast-paced action combat, lean skill bars, fast travel, LFG, etc.
About the only thing of old-school MMOs I wish would make a comeback is the all-inclusive sub-model. I hate the modern, piecemeal, nickle and diming.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
There isn't a market for "old school" MMORPGs that neglect the lessons learned by the industry over the years in terms of UI feedback to the player (specifically regarding game mechanics and systems), or for games that neglect to implement modern control schemes and other technical QoL features.
The biggest difference between these two genres is how much it costs to make one vs. the other, and how you can continuously monetize one vs. the other.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
However, that game benefits from the fact that player power is capped pretty quickly, because it's a virtual world game about economy, combat, and player interaction. The "endgame" isn't a gear treadmill, it's participating in the Galactic Civil War somehow, either via offering services to players, selling crafted items to other players, or directly fighting in the war.
Thankfully I can still play Everquest on P99.
" fast-paced action combat"
By "action combat", people must be referring to the targeting mechanism?
But UO's was plenty fast, and included timing even more so than what I've seen in modern games because you had to really stay tuned into the action with lots of timed actions pretty much all of the time.
Watching New World's combat videos appears to be very similar to UO's, action wise.
UO could have used special attacks earlier on, which they added some years after release. Even without that, though, the action all inclusive was very fast.
"lean skill bars"
Do you mean just having a few choices?
UO had keyboard mapping so that you could use all but a few keys to set up macros for all things you could do.
If you want it lean in that sense, you could do that too. Most players didn't use many actions anyways.
"fast travel"
UO had the best fast travel system I've ever seen.
Permanent Gate, Gate spell, recall spell, mark runes spell, scrolls that required little mage skill for all but Gate spells. Fast travel was no problem at all.
Also a short range teleport spell.
"LFG"
Bah, you went to your Guild headquarters and met up with your mates. If that didn't work, you just went to a place and usually there were other players around. There wasn't any "group system" so you could play with anyone.
I don't really get lumping UO, AC, and EQ together in any conversations. They were each quite unique.
It's pretty obvious that talking about Old School games as new games is all about the very poor quality of the efforts to remake old school games over the years.
At best, you got some games that were pretty good at some few things, mainly combat, but very lacking at all of the other stuff.
I didn't play is, but I have heard that Shadowbane had a very good design, except for bugs and a few important bad decisions (like flying over castle walls freely?). That game could probably be in this conversation as yet another unique game.
Once upon a time....
Nope. Action combat is all about active defenses for blocks, dodges, etc. instead of being abstracted into the damage calculations. They do tend to be faster-paced, have loose targeting done by your facing, and have short TTKs but that's not what defines it.
No. I mean having a lot of choices including the choice of which few skills to slot for use at any given time. Kind of like Mages had to do in D&D but applied to everyone and for the same reason: it adds an extra layer of choice/strategy and fosters build diversity.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
So yeah there is a want/need and if done right, it will not be niche.
Or you can be one of the graphics snobs who are never satisfied and only play where the masses play......
Not a single MMO can provide all the play styles to every player. Back in the 90s and early 2000s the amount of MMO's could be counted with one hand, that's why their population was so massive. Now there are so many that it spreads the MMO community and creates what its being called as "niche". It's just different play styles for different player bases.
There will always be a market for old school MMORPG, the question is how long they will last. In a PvE centric MMO it all comes down to providing "new" content periodically, not just adding different difficulties to the same content. For PvP if it's open PvP it comes down to retaining population, when there's no one to kill the game becomes boring, and so on.
Also don't forget that there's a market that enjoys the "daily" model, that others find that becomes a second job.