Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
Group-Based PvE MMORPG Embers Adrift is Launching October 15th 2022 | MMORPG.com
This discussion has been closed.
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Comments
You can try and evoke "same point as before on that", but it's a rather silly position to take, as it is a direct point on questioning the value of pushing the graphical updates. Ultimately they did not save DAOCs live/official state, and as already pointed out we can see a good chunk of the population still interested in the game leaning towards private servers with novel rules/mechanics.
Also still the case that it's one of multiple MMOs that have all done the upgrade shindig without success, with WoW remaining an outlier. When the sheer scale of WoW's player base and the subject of gameplay/mechanics is also in there, it again makes it a strained argument to say updating the graphics contributed all that greatly to it's longevity compared to all the other things.
This isn't to say visual updates shouldn't happen, especially to a live service, but there is indeed a reason many developers write it off.
I'm not about to engage you in another of your silly "my guess is better than your guess" debates.
You have an OPINION that tech upgrades are a waste of money. My OPINION is exactly the opposite of yours.
I'm not saying my opinion is anything more than that. You, OTOH...
Have a nice day.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Knowing full well that even post-WoW MMO's generally never hit that user count either?
The retention rate could be ten times as good for DAOC and their raw number comparison would still suck. That's a terribly dishonest way to make an argument as you're completely devaluing the impact that popularity scale and visibility to the broader market has on user count and retention.
(EDIT: Though this does extend my point, you can look at WoW, but don't forget all the conditions that define it. You want to look at WoW's retail chunk compared to others? Then make sure you're doing an honest comparison and accounting for all the factors that made the game popular, what it's user count was a launch, when it's user count hit peak, and what it's rate of decline has been.
These are all important considerations in regards to even considering what kind of impact individual features done during a game's lifecycle has been. Some of their largest visual upgrades have come in later expansions that were the worst received as well, so what correlations are we to be making there?)
You are also mistaking my opinion and inserting something I never said as a point of opposition. Do not make boogeymen to argue against.
What I pointed out was fact, not opinion. More MMO have factually pushed for visual and engine updates and saw no benefit in user count, than MMOs that have seen benefit. You have one example as an exception compared to the multiple I have referenced in this thread already. That is not a subject of opinion.
The subsequent statement that I did make was that it's more cost effective for developers to make a new title compared to banking on updating an old title. You even acknowledged as much yourself already only a couple posts ago;
"And I'm not disputing that "New" doesn't have superior appeal to "old but improved." New always wins that comparison."
So why you're trying to argue against it now, makes no sense. Even saying this is simply an argument of opinion, this is a flip from you.
Perhaps take a moment to breathe and consider what the argument is actually stating. Don't pull an Ungood.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
I think most games today just try to appeal to as many possible players as they can...They're kinda like Walmart...They try to lure in every kind of customer possible, whether they are there for a loaf of bread, a pillow for the bed, a quart of oil for the car, or any other thing on the planet.....and most of the gamers are OK with this kind of gaming...
This makes no sense to me, if Game Devs are trying to appeal to every possible player, then why are they so unpopular? If they are trying as you say, then they are failing in that effort. The vast majority of MMO's have less players than they did 20 years ago. And almost every single new MMO has lost over 99% of its player base within a short period of time. That seems like games that are failing to appeal to everyone.
Walmart on the other hand has the most customers of any retail store in history, so they actually accomplished the goal of appealing to a wide customer base.
What is more likely, is they are just pushing out trash games hoping to get an ROI on that very lackluster work.
Embers is a perfect example. This game if launched 15-20 years ago against UO/DAOC/SWG/EQ/Lineage/WoW etc.. would have been laughed out of business for such a poor product. Yet here we are releasing this POS in 2022. Its probably still going to be out of business, but what is going on thinking people want trash? I suppose peoples standards have fallen so low, even the trash is starting to look doable.
We live in sad times in MMO genre.
Every time NCSoft had their source code stolen for Lineage 1 and 2 a half dozen literal clones would pop up everywhere as the next big thing.
No doubt the genre has seen a lot of crap come out over the years, Embers can do no worse than just be added on to pile of failures gamers have come to expect.
Or, it might eek out some small measure of success such as SotA, Project Gorgon, or any of the many smaller games which continue to run in spite of everything.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
However, keep in mind, if we are going to talk about graphic updates, lets not forget EQ, with their complete overhaul done around 2001, which did prove to be fiscally adventitious.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
It combines the worst stuff from old school and leaves out most of the cool things. I cant think of anything Embers does better than the old school games. I also cannot think of 1 single system that feels completed. I have asked people on embers forums what system feels completed enough to be checked off the list. Nobody can even come up with anything. During beta optimists would just respond that its still in Beta and work in progress. Well now its releasing and these system have not changed.
Its discouraging these studios consistently pushing out subpar quality MMO's.
Pretty cut and dried.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Adventitious may be the right word there, as the choice for the upgrade was random and kind of eh in consequence. Same sort of path and consequence as most visual updates. Even WoW is not necessarily an exception to that if we are to spend time mapping subscription numbers over time.
Separately, wish I could say giving this thread some time before looking back at it helped make some sense of the arguments, but honestly I'm more confused to the stance a few people have taken. It's like they actually agree, but feel the need to do so via argument or don't realize their argument contradicts stance.
EDIT: To also address another subject mentioned, I'd say it's less MMO or games trying to have something for everyone to attain broad appeal, and more so trying to appeal to the lowest common denominator. Not a major difference, but does mean a direct difference in scope of focus on features.
Its not that a bunch of people want old graphics. Its just people understand that if a game goes all in on graphics, then it leaves less time to spend on gameplay mechanics. There is a huge correlation of high end graphics linked to low level gameplay mechanics.
If you could give me high end graphics and awesome gameplay, then sure count me in. When does that ever happen?
I bet if you could equate levels of graphics with levels of gameplay then 1 level of graphics probably costs the same amount of time/money as 3 levels of gameplay.
What good is great graphics if the game sucks.
Part of why we got comments like this for reviews from the likes of Game Informer back in the day;
"As far as the game goes, Verant has pulled the old Origin move of releasing a game no one without some significant bank can play"
GameStop, Computer Gaming World, GameSpy, PC Action, Joystick, etc. The reviews of the time were pretty unanimous on the performance penalty and subsequent restriction the new visual component had on the game. The new zones and expanded content was lauded though.
Speaks directly to the subject I and Quiz had mentioned regarding challenges faced in trying to drag old technology upwards. Not exactly a strong feature if it's met with the off button.
EDIT: And further the point the repeat question of what within such expansions is actually the part that does offer extended value to the general users. IE, the playable content versus the visual.
And yet these same people cry that the graphics of modern games look old and dated, yet, like, pick a fucking stand, do they matter or do they not matter.. you can't have it both ways.
Old game looking old, well, goes with the "no duh".
When the subject was old games updating graphics, and the relevance of that in contrast to other features of the game, or even the tipping point of where it's just more viable to make a new game, then it not anyone crying about modern games looking old either.
That was just an argument from nothing, for nothing.
As for the last comment, QoL updating and changes to gameplay/content is actually quite relevant to a remaster. Take D2 for example. Maintaining the core game features was a must, but they still changed surrounding mechanics to bring up the experience.
This also speaks to something that was mentioned before. Even when trying to make a 1:1, the interpretation and implementation of features and details is ultimately subject to interpretation. A good example is the Tribes games, where each successive title tried to replicate the physics and sledding element of the first couple titles, but the advancing physics models got in the way of what was once a relatively simple system. You might think it's a linear thing to just match the old content, but recreating things in new systems isn't a drag and drop experience.
[mod edit]
An MMO is a GAAS, as such, it should always strive to be up to date, upgrading, improving as best as it can, and a part of that, is in fact keeping the graphics up to date as well, either through remasters, or complete overhauls.
That is the whole point to have a dev team for the game to start with, to keep it up to date, to fix the bugs as they arise, add in new features, and also, keep the graphics current.
It's like people have this idea that while a game can get expansions, tech improvements, and all kinds of upgrades.. Oh No! Graphics can't be a part of that.. like what the fuck?
No, really, having a Dev team keep a GAAS game up to current, is not a hard concept to grasp, but some really can't seem to figure that one out.
When that great and glorious day finally arrives.....
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
No, What was said was "Old game looking old, well, goes with the "no duh".". IE, it's not a surprise when an old game looks like an old game.
It's better not to try and straw man multiple times in a row.
As for your second argument there, that ultimately only ever applies up to a point. Again, devs can only do so much with a codebase over time, and the moment you talk about remasters and "complete overhauls" you've already stepped past updates into functionally, if not truly, making a new game.
Which just puts you at explaining to yourself why your previous post was short sighted and proving your own stance wrong.
Smaller updates and stepwise improvements to systems and even visuals, no one ever argued against. What was argued was the effective value of massive overhauls to older games/systems, and notably the visuals.
You are making up an argument that never existed, and in the process you're only arguing against yourself and against your own prior stance.
I mean, I'm glad you've turned around a bit and actually agree with Quiz and me now. You've chosen to do so in a pretty funny way though.
Which means whoever said this, thinks that old MMO's should look old.
I totally disagree with this whole premise, it is faulty and it is flawed right from it's foundation, as if they are going to offer the game as a GAAS, it should be always being updated, ergo, it does not stay an old game, it changes with the times.
I want to be very clear, I have not agreed with this person in any way shape or form, I still stand by the belief that as opposed to wanting to remake or invest in "Old School" style new games, we should instead take that money, and development, and just update the older games to Modern. If the mechanics are good, there is simply no good reason not to do this.
On top of that, If we suddenly have 17 million to piss in a pot for an unknown game that might crash and burn at launch, we should be able to have 17 million, to update an older enduring game, and even more-so, if the new game is supposedly based on the older game.
I believe at the very least, any active MMO's should be getting continual upgrades and updates, this is a bare minimum, not an alternative to an overhaul, but in addition to.
I think an MMO that has proved it's staying power should be updated routinely, Ideally, with full overhauls when there is a direct jump in technology for them to rise up to, as opposed to the patch system we have.
The only reason why this is not done, no matter what anyone says, the absolute only reason why this is not done, is that it would cut in profits and the suits want money more then they want to make a good game, that is the only reason why they would rather pay to patch a game, as opposed to updating it.