Reviewing a post I made in 2009...

Veiled_light

My English is bad.... But was I wrong? 


"I hate MMOs is because they used to be good when they were complex and hard back in 2003 and before. Then WoW came along and dumbed down the genre so now all we have is a load of stupid WoW clones. Frigging I played WoW once, it sucked, I don't need to play it again and again. You end up going through the same process of leveling your characters, tutorial 1 - 10 areas and having to grind for a month just to get to the game you want to play. Frigging before WoW all the MMOs were innovative and UNIQUE. We had Planetside, Star Wars Galaxies (Pre CU) and Everquest, UO, EVE Online and Dark Age of Camelot all doing different things. Now all we have is WoW and WoWhammer and Age of Conan and Lotro all doing the same thing and they all suck compared to how WoW did it.

Frigging theres no death penalty anymore, no crafting anymore, no sense of there being a seamless world anymore. Theres no complexity, everyone looks the same and all cookie cutter classes. Games like EVE and SWG in 2003 were expanding beyond the flawed class concept and all we've done is gone back. Planetside introduced 300people + battles for an FPS and it was amazing. However SOE ruined the game with patches and a crap expansion so everyone left. However all we've done is gone back in the FPS genre because of the shitty consoles.

This is why I'm sick of MMOs and SWTOR looks like another WoW clone but with the annoying talking shit Bioware puts in all their games. They're all linear these days with linear built worlds so everyone gets to end level and then the rest of the world is dead. Content becomes about the grind and once you're end level then you grind content for gear instead of levels. Frigging again EVE and SWG Pre CU stopped this by having non linear worlds where quests are about fun and not rewards. Everyone was doing different content at the same time so no content was empty because it let you play the game at your own pace without levels. Frigging you could jump into Galaxies and EVE and frigging play with your friends straight away, but in WoW you have to grind for a month to get to them.

I'm sick of how the genre has gone backwards and it's all because of the retarded casual fad that is happening right now."

delete5230

A bit rough, but SPOT ON !....... You have to talk to posters here like that, its the only thing they understand. Even still they don't get it.

Problem here on this site is many of the hard posters don't have a clue to what their posting and not a clue of what a real mmorpg is. 

So your right, but expect a huge argument from all the posters that don't know what their talking about.


It had come down to very few topics here because mmorpgs are in the toilet for OVER 10 YEARS and nothing to talk about, but yet they stick to their guns.

KnightFalz

As to your opinion of how you feel things are it is not possible for you to be wrong. As to the accuracy of many of your assertions you're not so blessed.

Many of them are incorrect and your basis of analysis is quite small in comparison to the variety of games available.

Your post reads largely like a parroting of opinions others have expressed with little if anything otherwise.

As to a huge argument coming from other posters I don't know if they'll bother. You haven't said anything that hasn't been addressed countless times already.

delete5230

KnightFalz said:

As to your opinion of how you feel things are it is not possible for you to be wrong. As to the accuracy of many of your assertions you're not so blessed.

Many of them are incorrect and your basis of analysis is quite small in comparison to the variety of games available.

Your post reads largely like a parroting of opinions others have expressed with little if anything otherwise.

As to a huge argument coming from other posters I don't know if they'll bother. You haven't said anything that hasn't been addressed countless times already.

I've addressed the problem from countless angles, yet it never sinks in. Its too late, most will never understand what an mmorpg is.  All were getting are story quest easy solo games on line that last two months at best. 


Since it's all garbage, we don't have anything much to talk about.  Most here will argue this point to the bitter end.

AlBQuirky

Yes, KnightFalz said it best.

Your opinion is your own, but many assumptions are made about the genre as a whole.

 You describe the "Triple A" games fairly well, where the obvious "safe formula" is used.

Look at "the numbers." MORE players are playing the games now than before. Someone is enjoying them

You have to admit that it is difficult to "play with others"

Kyleran

For whatever reason a large part of the MMORPG player base enjoys the gear grinding design, I'm currently playing NW and it has exactly the same model as WOW and most others in the genre.

I'm not a fan, but since 2009 developers have learned how to monetize in many more ways than just the sub model which was prevalent back then, and several complement the gear grinding progression model quite well. (In terms of profitability)

I think we sometimes look at things backwards.  In the beginning, there were online games of limited popularity, which were largely dominated by MMORPG (and FPSer) designs.

Over time innovation occurred in online gaming, new genres arose or were spun off, giving rise to Fortnite, League of Legends, a hundred different survival games, mobile, each capturing a significant portion of the gaming revenue landscape which often dwarfs MMORPGs these days.

So developers see no value in revisiting older designs such as UO, EVE or others.  They already know what makes them big money for relatively low cost, gear grinders while anything else is an expensive risk with unknown results so the larger studios aren't going to be doing it anytime ever, unless they screw up and get lucky at the same time.

Most gamers who are unwilling to adapt to the standard model are back playing the originals as there aren't really any good options in the near horizon.

It isn't a matter of what posters here believe or think despite those who say we are deficient for adapting to the reality of what is rather than sit idle and play nothing like they prefer to do.

Scot

The closet thing you have to nonlinear now is a Survival MMO, a genre which also somewhat stands in for what we used to call Sandbox. They don't appeal to me; they are their own genre but if sandbox and non-linear appeals you might find a home there.

Oh, and that "casuals fad" you talked about is now the baulk of the player base. The only possibility we had to go against that tide of solo-casual play was crowd funded MMOs and look how that's turned out. We do have AO which many players rate and I think someone mentioned one other that was doing alright. Apart from that CF-MMOs have been a nightmare.

Iselin

Veiled_light said:

You end up going through the same process of leveling your characters, tutorial 1 - 10 areas and having to grind for a month just to get to the game you want to play. 

What is this game you want to play they're making you grind for a whole month (the cruel bastards!) before you get to play it?

The repetitive end-game gear grind? Dailies? Ranked PvP 15-minute matches? Raid locks?

You're kind of undermining your representation of yourself as a lover of pre-WOW games when you complain about having to grind for a month lol.

It took me months, plural, to get to 50 in Dark Age of Camelot and I wasn't even one of the slow ones.

TheDalaiBomba

Kyleran said:

For whatever reason a large part of the MMORPG player base enjoys the gear grinding design, I'm currently playing NW and it has exactly the same model as WOW and most others in the genre.

I'm not a fan, but since 2009 developers have learned how to monetize in many more ways than just the sub model which was prevalent back then, and several complement the gear grinding progression model quite well. (In terms of profitability)

I think we sometimes look at things backwards.  In the beginning, there were online games of limited popularity, which were largely dominated by MMORPG (and FPSer) designs.

Over time innovation occurred in online gaming, new genres arose or were spun off, giving rise to Fortnite, League of Legends, a hundred different survival games, mobile, each capturing a significant portion of the gaming revenue landscape which often dwarfs MMORPGs these days.

So developers see no value in revisiting older designs such as UO, EVE or others.  They already know what makes them big money for relatively low cost, gear grinders while anything else is an expensive risk with unknown results so the larger studios aren't going to be doing it anytime ever, unless they screw up and get lucky at the same time.

Most gamers who are unwilling to adapt to the standard model are back playing the originals as there aren't really any good options in the near horizon.

It isn't a matter of what posters here believe or think despite those who say we are deficient for adapting to the reality of what is rather than sit idle and play nothing like they prefer to do.

With the current rogue/emulated server scene, you don't have to play a game frozen in time or new releases.

SWG Legends added Bespin to their server, something that wasn't even ever launched in the live version if I'm not mistaken.  Other servers have added custom content, such as the CoH Homecoming server adding new costumers, proliferating power sets, revamping the same, adding new missions and arcs, etc.

In fact, I'd call SWG Legends one of the most complete MMORPG experiences available today.  It's got pretty much everything.

Veiled_light

Kyleran said:

For whatever reason a large part of the MMORPG player base enjoys the gear grinding design, I'm currently playing NW and it has exactly the same model as WOW and most others in the genre.

I'm not a fan, but since 2009 developers have learned how to monetize in many more ways than just the sub model which was prevalent back then, and several complement the gear grinding progression model quite well. (In terms of profitability)

I think we sometimes look at things backwards.  In the beginning, there were online games of limited popularity, which were largely dominated by MMORPG (and FPSer) designs.

Over time innovation occurred in online gaming, new genres arose or were spun off, giving rise to Fortnite, League of Legends, a hundred different survival games, mobile, each capturing a significant portion of the gaming revenue landscape which often dwarfs MMORPGs these days.

So developers see no value in revisiting older designs such as UO, EVE or others.  They already know what makes them big money for relatively low cost, gear grinders while anything else is an expensive risk with unknown results so the larger studios aren't going to be doing it anytime ever, unless they screw up and get lucky at the same time.

Most gamers who are unwilling to adapt to the standard model are back playing the originals as there aren't really any good options in the near horizon.

It isn't a matter of what posters here believe or think despite those who say we are deficient for adapting to the reality of what is rather than sit idle and play nothing like they prefer to do.

I do not want what was old, but I want the spirit in a new package. Sadly today we do not get worlds anymore. 

Kyleran

Veiled_light said:

Kyleran said:

For whatever reason a large part of the MMORPG player base enjoys the gear grinding design, I'm currently playing NW and it has exactly the same model as WOW and most others in the genre.

I'm not a fan, but since 2009 developers have learned how to monetize in many more ways than just the sub model which was prevalent back then, and several complement the gear grinding progression model quite well. (In terms of profitability)

I think we sometimes look at things backwards.  In the beginning, there were online games of limited popularity, which were largely dominated by MMORPG (and FPSer) designs.

Over time innovation occurred in online gaming, new genres arose or were spun off, giving rise to Fortnite, League of Legends, a hundred different survival games, mobile, each capturing a significant portion of the gaming revenue landscape which often dwarfs MMORPGs these days.

So developers see no value in revisiting older designs such as UO, EVE or others.  They already know what makes them big money for relatively low cost, gear grinders while anything else is an expensive risk with unknown results so the larger studios aren't going to be doing it anytime ever, unless they screw up and get lucky at the same time.

Most gamers who are unwilling to adapt to the standard model are back playing the originals as there aren't really any good options in the near horizon.

It isn't a matter of what posters here believe or think despite those who say we are deficient for adapting to the reality of what is rather than sit idle and play nothing like they prefer to do.

I do not want what was old, but I want the spirit in a new package. Sadly today we do not get worlds anymore. 

Think about this. More than 12 years ago they had already stopped making MMORPGS based on the designs you favor with none released since then.

What are the odds of the situation changing?

My favorite pizza of all time was South Erie Pizza which closed about 40 years ago. It truly was a cut above all others at the time or ever since.

Now, did I stop eating pizza or continually bemoan the fact they just don't make pizza like that anymore?



Hope you one day find the new game you are seeking, I'll probably be right there next to you.

Champie

Kyleran said:

My favorite pizza of all time was South Erie Pizza which closed about 40 years ago. It truly was a cut above all others at the time or ever since.

Now, did I stop eating pizza or continually bemoan the fact they just don't make pizza like that anymore?

Never eating pizza again because you find every option to be substandard IS a REASONABLE response to things. The result is that you stop eating pizza because there is no accessible option that is satisfying and you don't have the skill, talent, experience to make your own.

I might even tell people my story of how I came to be a pizza rejectionist. I might even share the story on public platforms. People would probably dismiss me as eccentric.

KnightFalz

delete5230 said:

KnightFalz said:

As to your opinion of how you feel things are it is not possible for you to be wrong. As to the accuracy of many of your assertions you're not so blessed.

Many of them are incorrect and your basis of analysis is quite small in comparison to the variety of games available.

Your post reads largely like a parroting of opinions others have expressed with little if anything otherwise.

As to a huge argument coming from other posters I don't know if they'll bother. You haven't said anything that hasn't been addressed countless times already.

I've addressed the problem from countless angles, yet it never sinks in. Its too late, most will never understand what an mmorpg is.  All were getting are story quest easy solo games on line that last two months at best. 


Since it's all garbage, we don't have anything much to talk about.  Most here will argue this point to the bitter end.

Countless times, to be sure. I don't recall much variance in the way of angle. It all sinks in as none of has been hard to understand. The making of your points doesn't provide them the automatic validity you seem to think or necessitate agreement by others.

There are many MMORPGs that have been running for many years and show no signs of discontinuance. We are getting all of thoe so your claim all "last two months at best" is absolute rubbish. Embers Adrift is neither story quest focused or easy to play solo, further undermining your claim of "all", though it may yet satisfy your claim regarding duration of operation.

It's all garbage according to you and those of like opinion. It is not to those with contrary opinion. Both of these perspectives are represented on the forums.

Some here will argue it forever, but as for the bitter end... well that's already past by your stated preferences. What remains of that are outliers that have weathered the storm of change and a few niche games struggling to find a foothold among them.

KnightFalz

Champie said:

Kyleran said:

My favorite pizza of all time was South Erie Pizza which closed about 40 years ago. It truly was a cut above all others at the time or ever since.

Now, did I stop eating pizza or continually bemoan the fact they just don't make pizza like that anymore?

Never eating pizza again because you find every option to be substandard IS a REASONABLE response to things. The result is that you stop eating pizza because there is no accessible option that is satisfying and you don't have the skill, talent, experience to make your own.

I might even tell people my story of how I came to be a pizza rejectionist. I might even share the story on public platforms. People would probably dismiss me as eccentric.

It is a reasonable response to feel all pizza to be substandard and quit eating them, eccentric as it may be. It is not reasonable to elevate your opinion to the level of uncompromising fact such that any other view is incontestably wrong.

Ralphie2449

I much more prefer the linear design, gear chase, specific classes and casual relaxed games where I can just login and que for some content that I enjoy and be rewarded for my time.

As for complexity that has become a joke, doesnt matter how complex a game is, the metaslaves will just copy paste whatever is optimal based on popular guides so customization is proven to be utterly pointless.

Though I guess people with serious self esteem issues do unironically believe changing to a fire build to fight a boss with weakness to fire is somekind of genius 5d chess move that they are proud for and believe that it makes them great players xD

As one of the few people who can genuinely say like customization because I make my own builds instead of metaslave I am definitely feeling the FF14 model is superior, customization is pointless when 90% of players will just copy what a streamer told them is "meta", not only that the obvious balance issues will often make more fun builds perform worse so might as well remove customization and just stick to making different classes that feel different in terms of gameplay and fantasy.

KnightFalz

Ralphie2449 said:

I much more prefer the linear design, gear chase, specific classes and casual relaxed games where I can just login and que for some content that I enjoy and be rewarded for my time.

As for complexity that has become a joke, doesnt matter how complex a game is, the metaslaves will just copy paste whatever is optimal based on popular guides so customization is proven to be utterly pointless.

Though I guess people with serious self esteem issues do unironically believe changing to a fire build to fight a boss with weakness to fire is somekind of genius 5d chess move that they are proud for and believe that it makes them great players xD

As one of the few people who can genuinely say like customization because I make my own builds instead of metaslave I am definitely feeling the FF14 model is superior, customization is pointless when 90% of players will just copy what a streamer told them is "meta", not only that the obvious balance issues will often make more fun builds perform worse so might as well remove customization and just stick to making different classes that feel different in terms of gameplay and fantasy.

There are no meta slaves, but many that choose to play meta builds. There are also those that play builds other than. The ability to do either prevents customization from being utterly pointless.

Changing to a fire build to fight a boss weak to fire isn't genius. It is both obvious and generally effective making that choice ideal unless there are other factors that would be prohibitive in some way.

Good for you. Go trailblazer go! Why then campaign for something that will negate your ability to customize? It seems rather contrary to your build creativity.

Ralphie2449

KnightFalz said:

There are no meta slaves, but many that choose to play meta builds. There are also those that play builds other than. The ability to do either prevents customization from being utterly pointless.

Changing to a fire build to fight a boss weak to fire isn't genius. It is both obvious and generally effective making that choice ideal unless there are other factors that would be prohibitive in some way.

Good for you. Go trailblazer go! Why then campaign for something that will negate your ability to customize? It seems rather contrary to your build creativity.

WoW Shadowlands, before blizzard started to crush and burn for multiple reasons.

Introduces covenants, players can choose one out of four covenants based on theme and/or abilities you receive.

Statistics showed that even at the extremely casual level you had people playing the "meta" covenant for their class, percentages would get even more ridiculous once you filtered by high m+ for example with some classes having 98% in one covenant.

I would be the one to play non meta covenant, the VAST VAST VAST majority of players in mmos dont care about customization because they are slaves to the meta, they are told this is best, they copy paste the build because they cant even imagine playing something "inefficient"

So when even casuals copy paste whatever bs wowhead tells them to, what is the point of customization?

Many people here I am certain love to tell themselves they want customization and then copy paste whatever the meta build is according to popular guys showing they dont truly care about customization.

I literally had to write my own excels to figure out optimal rotation on builds that arent meta because metaslaves dont even bother researching talents that arent near max performance.

Fun builds underperform often, classes or specs that arent "meta" can spend hours searching for pugs.

So why are we even keeping all that customization considering all these problems it causes while being IRRELEVANT for the majority of the players? There's really no real benefit for the majority zuz customization only really matters to a minority of players like myself, and we are very very few that we genuinely use customization.

Scot

Ralphie2449 said:

KnightFalz said:

There are no meta slaves, but many that choose to play meta builds. There are also those that play builds other than. The ability to do either prevents customization from being utterly pointless.

Changing to a fire build to fight a boss weak to fire isn't genius. It is both obvious and generally effective making that choice ideal unless there are other factors that would be prohibitive in some way.

Good for you. Go trailblazer go! Why then campaign for something that will negate your ability to customize? It seems rather contrary to your build creativity.

WoW Shadowlands, before blizzard started to crush and burn for multiple reasons.

Introduces covenants, players can choose one out of four covenants based on theme and/or abilities you receive.

Statistics showed that even at the extremely casual level you had people playing the "meta" covenant for their class, percentages would get even more ridiculous once you filtered by high m+ for example with some classes having 98% in one covenant.

I would be the one to play non meta covenant, the VAST VAST VAST majority of players in mmos dont care about customization because they are slaves to the meta, they are told this is best, they copy paste the build because they cant even imagine playing something "inefficient"

So when even casuals copy paste whatever bs wowhead tells them to, what is the point of customization?

Many people here I am certain love to tell themselves they want customization and then copy paste whatever the meta build is according to popular guys showing they dont truly care about customization.

I literally had to write my own excels to figure out optimal rotation on builds that arent meta because metaslaves dont even bother researching talents that arent near max performance.

Fun builds underperform often, classes or specs that arent "meta" can spend hours searching for pugs.

So why are we even keeping all that customization considering all these problems it causes while being IRRELEVANT for the majority of the players? There's really no real benefit for the majority zuz customization only really matters to a minority of players like myself, and we are very very few that we genuinely use customization.

Quite simply, the way you make customization important is to diversify what players come up against. How players then customise should be based on the frequency and travel considerations involved with the variegated content. So, for example you may put in a lot of variation and mobs that need appropriate builds, use the Rifts idea and have players able to change from one sort of warrior to another with time limits. If you stick with unique dungeon like locations forming the right group makes for a better gaming experience.

I say quite simply but the Rifts like idea (not saying they had a ton of unique mobs here) is far harder to program for than the dungeon method, hence we have only really seen this done the dungeon group way.

AAAMEOW

I just think people playing wow or any (wow clone) are brain dead zombie.  It's kind of like playing ARPG, you just keep grinding and grinding forever.

But that is why precisely people playing wow are the most dedicated player.  They are likely to stick and playing it forever.  Kind of like ARPG player.  So you can't blame developer to make that kind of game.

There are actually many other mmorpg released.  I just play a few hours and quit.  

KnightFalz

Ralphie2449 said:

KnightFalz said:

There are no meta slaves, but many that choose to play meta builds. There are also those that play builds other than. The ability to do either prevents customization from being utterly pointless.

Changing to a fire build to fight a boss weak to fire isn't genius. It is both obvious and generally effective making that choice ideal unless there are other factors that would be prohibitive in some way.

Good for you. Go trailblazer go! Why then campaign for something that will negate your ability to customize? It seems rather contrary to your build creativity.

WoW Shadowlands, before blizzard started to crush and burn for multiple reasons.

Introduces covenants, players can choose one out of four covenants based on theme and/or abilities you receive.

Statistics showed that even at the extremely casual level you had people playing the "meta" covenant for their class, percentages would get even more ridiculous once you filtered by high m+ for example with some classes having 98% in one covenant.

I would be the one to play non meta covenant, the VAST VAST VAST majority of players in mmos dont care about customization because they are slaves to the meta, they are told this is best, they copy paste the build because they cant even imagine playing something "inefficient"

So when even casuals copy paste whatever bs wowhead tells them to, what is the point of customization?

Many people here I am certain love to tell themselves they want customization and then copy paste whatever the meta build is according to popular guys showing they dont truly care about customization.

I literally had to write my own excels to figure out optimal rotation on builds that arent meta because metaslaves dont even bother researching talents that arent near max performance.

Fun builds underperform often, classes or specs that arent "meta" can spend hours searching for pugs.

So why are we even keeping all that customization considering all these problems it causes while being IRRELEVANT for the majority of the players? There's really no real benefit for the majority zuz customization only really matters to a minority of players like myself, and we are very very few that we genuinely use customization.

You wouldn't be the one to play the non meta covenant if it were not for the possibility to do so. Customization is preserved to provide choice so that the player has agency over their character. Removing that choice produces the true meta slave as the player has no choice to be other than.

Your cure for the predominance of meta players to make them the only players is akin to releasing more-flea ridden rats to end the bubonic plague. Counter-productive.

Kyleran

AAAMEOW said:

I just think people playing wow or any (wow clone) are brain dead zombie.  It's kind of like playing ARPG, you just keep grinding and grinding forever.

But that is why precisely people playing wow are the most dedicated player.  They are likely to stick and playing it forever.  Kind of like ARPG player.  So you can't blame developer to make that kind of game.



There are actually many other mmorpg released.  I just play a few hours and quit.  

I think anyone who doesn't like playing EVE are spineless children without the ability to use the brains God gave them.

  

No I don't.  Some of the best people I know play WOW and hate EVE. 

Point being probably better not to paint people who play games you do not like with broad, disparaging comments about their worthiness as human beings.

Unless they play mobile games, then it's OK. 

Ralphie2449

Scot said:

Quite simply, the way you make customization important is to diversify what players come up against. How players then customise should be based on the frequency and travel considerations involved with the variegated content. So, for example you may put in a lot of variation and mobs that need appropriate builds, use the Rifts idea and have players able to change from one sort of warrior to another with time limits.

How does that solve anything?

It will be extremely easy to find what is optimal, when to change and to what and metaslaves would blindly follow. The very design that "you should change to fit X enemy group" ALWAYS leads to metaslavery because people always sooner or later find what is meta and when they need to change. Even if enemies were to be RNG people would still know when to change and to what unless you are thinking of literally putting equal amount of all enemy types per area at which point what is the point of it.

Like in wow where in m+ dungeons people unironically changed trinkets and gear for boss fights until blizzard stopped allowing it.

The design of "You should change your build to fit X" achieves only the following:

-Rampart metaslavery aka no point for customization when 90% of your playerbase plays what a guide tells them is "optimal"

-Gamers TM with low self esteem that believe changing to fit the situation makes them ultra smart and skilled players resulting in some really delusional people with very fragile egos (Only reason why metaslaves tell themselves they like customization while ignoring it)

-Turning any fun build or class one could enjoy into "Oh yeah, your fun class/build is shit for this content/area so you cant play it unless you want to do half the damage"

You did not solve the problem, you just made it worse.

Like i said before, changing to a fire build to beat a fire weak boss is not somekind of utlra skillful 5d chess move, it is obvious, it is not something to be proud about so the existence of the design you promote achieves nothing but delusions and fragile egos because that is the only reason I can justify metaslave's """"love"""" for customization.

If you want skill competition that can easily be achieved without customization, there's always a number of harder to optimally play classes in ff14 like Black mage, machinist etc in high end content.

How about the metaslaves prove their """""skill""""" by playing well and not failing mechanics instead of telling themselves they are great players for copy pasting a wowhead guide which is what the majority of average metaslaves do, they dont perform anywhere near high.

The point is simple, metaslaves aka vast majority of high end players which i am certain includes most people here dont give a damn about their build and if it is something that fits them as a theme or gameplay, all they care about is that it is "optimal", so customization has not achieved anything other than cause problems.

KnightFalz said:
You wouldn't be the one to play the non meta covenant if it were not for the possibility to do so. Customization is preserved to provide choice so that the player has agency over their character.

Yes but me and the people who genuinely use customization are a TINY minority, what happened during shadowlands proves it quite blatantly, customization is ignored even by some casuals for the sake of the meta choice.

Doesnt even matter if they suck at the game, they have told themselves it is important to metaslave.

Not only that, I had to work more and spend more effort for less dps and people who played more non meta classes(even with optimal builds) still had to spend hours trying to find more high end content groups.

So what you are telling me is that customization is great because it causes all those problems and provides nothing of value, or the value it provides is only relevant to a minority like myself.

What is the point of a system if only 5% of your playerbase uses it and the rest of the community ignores it while discriminating against said 5% and cause all those problems.

Dont think we are worth it but thank you for considering us so special xD

Kyleran

Ralphie2449 said:

Scot said:

Quite simply, the way you make customization important is to diversify what players come up against. How players then customise should be based on the frequency and travel considerations involved with the variegated content. So, for example you may put in a lot of variation and mobs that need appropriate builds, use the Rifts idea and have players able to change from one sort of warrior to another with time limits.

How does that solve anything?

It will be extremely easy to find what is optimal, when to change and to what and metaslaves would blindly follow. The very design that "you should change to fit X enemy group" ALWAYS leads to metaslavery because people always sooner or later find what is meta and when they need to change. Even if enemies were to be RNG people would still know when to change and to what unless you are thinking of literally putting equal amount of all enemy types per area at which point what is the point of it.

Like in wow where in m+ dungeons people unironically changed trinkets and gear for boss fights until blizzard stopped allowing it.

The design of "You should change your build to fit X" achieves only the following:

-Rampart metaslavery aka no point for customization when 90% of your playerbase plays what a guide tells them is "optimal"

-Gamers TM with low self esteem that believe changing to fit the situation makes them ultra smart and skilled players resulting in some really delusional people with very fragile egos (Only reason why metaslaves tell themselves they like customization while ignoring it)

-Turning any fun build or class one could enjoy into "Oh yeah, your fun class/build is shit for this content/area so you cant play it unless you want to do half the damage"

You did not solve the problem, you just made it worse.

Like i said before, changing to a fire build to beat a fire weak boss is not somekind of utlra skillful 5d chess move, it is obvious, it is not something to be proud about so the existence of the design you promote achieves nothing but delusions and fragile egos because that is the only reason I can justify metaslave's """"love"""" for customization.

If you want skill competition that can easily be achieved without customization, there's always a number of harder to optimally play classes in ff14 like Black mage, machinist etc in high end content.

How about the metaslaves prove their """""skill""""" by playing well and not failing mechanics instead of telling themselves they are great players for copy pasting a wowhead guide which is what the majority of average metaslaves do, they dont perform anywhere near high.

The point is simple, metaslaves aka vast majority of high end players which i am certain includes most people here dont give a damn about their build and if it is something that fits them as a theme or gameplay, all they care about is that it is "optimal", so customization has not achieved anything other than cause problems.

KnightFalz said:
You wouldn't be the one to play the non meta covenant if it were not for the possibility to do so. Customization is preserved to provide choice so that the player has agency over their character.

Yes but me and the people who genuinely use customization are a TINY minority, what happened during shadowlands proves it quite blatantly, customization is ignored even by some casuals for the sake of the meta choice.

Doesnt even matter if they suck at the game, they have told themselves it is important to metaslave.

Not only that, I had to work more and spend more effort for less dps and people who played more non meta classes(even with optimal builds) still had to spend hours trying to find more high end content groups.

So what you are telling me is that customization is great because it causes all those problems and provides nothing of value, or the value it provides is only relevant to a minority like myself.

What is the point of a system if only 5% of your playerbase uses it and the rest of the community ignores it while discriminating against said 5% and cause all those problems.

Dont think we are worth it but thank you for considering us so special xD

You toss around a lot of statistics, 5%, 90%, any links to support your claims?

My friends and I are all playing New World and none of us are meta slaves.
Sure, the top tier players follow but for the more casual players it just isn't the case in my experience.

Ralphie2449

Kyleran said:

You toss around a lot of statistics, 5%, 90%, any links to support your claims?

My friends and I are all playing New World and none of us are meta slaves.
Sure, the top tier players follow but for the more casual players it just isn't the case in my experience.

Known statistics from WoW during the covenant era, I am sure WoWhead articles talking about covenant balance and showing statistics between class and covenant are still there, the issue was very known to anyone who was playing WoW at the time.

Also you are playing new world.
Are you telling me when you are gonna do high end mutated expeditions are you not gonna change your weapon to the element that does the most damage and remove the weapon that does the least damage? Oh you like void gauntlet let's say? too bad its shit for certain weeks/expeditions

New world went for your model of damage types so expeditions often have bosses and enemies that require certain damage time else you are doing far less damage.

People are complaining in the forums lately that with party finder their previous 15 minute metaslave clears are taking 40 minutes showing what big of a difference in damage optimal weapons make, when New world adds raids are you not gonna change weapon to the one that does 20% more damage to the boss?

Or do you believe you will retain this clueless big new world feeling forever like in the early days of any mmo?

Classic wow proved this, people were clueless back in the day, when they launched classic their ""hard"" raids died in literally minutes and were a joke, that is because the communities are not the same anymore, cluelessness is gone once it becomes more popular/big.

There's only ONE way to break metaslavery, and that is to make all skill values change within a specified range every day or two so meta never truly settles and people arent allowed to figure it out so they are FORCED god forbid, to play what they like. Frequent changes is the only way.

KnightFalz

Ralphie2449 said:

KnightFalz said:
You wouldn't be the one to play the non meta covenant if it were not for the possibility to do so. Customization is preserved to provide choice so that the player has agency over their character.

Yes but me and the people who genuinely use customization are a TINY minority, what happened during shadowlands proves it quite blatantly, customization is ignored even by some casuals for the sake of the meta choice.

Doesnt even matter if they suck at the game, they have told themselves it is important to metaslave.

Not only that, I had to work more and spend more effort for less dps and people who played more non meta classes(even with optimal builds) still had to spend hours trying to find more high end content groups.

So what you are telling me is that customization is great because it causes all those problems and provides nothing of value, or the value it provides is only relevant to a minority like myself.

What is the point of a system if only 5% of your playerbase uses it and the rest of the community ignores it while discriminating against said 5% and cause all those problems.

Dont think we are worth it but thank you for considering us so special xD

It doesn't matter if it is a tiny minority that use off-meta builds. What matters is the ability to use off-meta builds for those that want to.

If you want the maximum return for your effort play the meta build. That's what they are designed to do. Anything else will likely not perform as well.

What you get in exchange for that loss in DPS is the ability to the character as you want to rather than follow the dictates of the meta,

I'm telling you customization is great because it allows people to customize.

I'm telling you customization doesn't cause you any problems than the meta. They each have their own advantages and disadvantages. Choose the bundle you like and be happy you aren't instead forced into a default you may not.

The point of any system is the use of it, and everyone is. What isn't the point is that the system be used in the manner of your preference.

I don't consider you all special and I'm certain you're not especially worth it. The ability to customize builds is quite common in MMORPGs and all those that play them are equally worth it. Whether they use that ability to emulate or originate is entirely up to them, as it should be.

You have your own choices to manage. You don't need those of everyone else as well.

Scot

Ralphie2449 said:

Scot said:

Quite simply, the way you make customization important is to diversify what players come up against. How players then customise should be based on the frequency and travel considerations involved with the variegated content. So, for example you may put in a lot of variation and mobs that need appropriate builds, use the Rifts idea and have players able to change from one sort of warrior to another with time limits.

How does that solve anything?

It will be extremely easy to find what is optimal, when to change and to what and metaslaves would blindly follow. The very design that "you should change to fit X enemy group" ALWAYS leads to metaslavery because people always sooner or later find what is meta and when they need to change. Even if enemies were to be RNG people would still know when to change and to what unless you are thinking of literally putting equal amount of all enemy types per area at which point what is the point of it.

Like in wow where in m+ dungeons people unironically changed trinkets and gear for boss fights until blizzard stopped allowing it.

The design of "You should change your build to fit X" achieves only the following:

-Rampart metaslavery aka no point for customization when 90% of your playerbase plays what a guide tells them is "optimal"

-Gamers TM with low self esteem that believe changing to fit the situation makes them ultra smart and skilled players resulting in some really delusional people with very fragile egos (Only reason why metaslaves tell themselves they like customization while ignoring it)

-Turning any fun build or class one could enjoy into "Oh yeah, your fun class/build is shit for this content/area so you cant play it unless you want to do half the damage"

You did not solve the problem, you just made it worse.

Like i said before, changing to a fire build to beat a fire weak boss is not somekind of utlra skillful 5d chess move, it is obvious, it is not something to be proud about so the existence of the design you promote achieves nothing but delusions and fragile egos because that is the only reason I can justify metaslave's """"love"""" for customization.

If you want skill competition that can easily be achieved without customization, there's always a number of harder to optimally play classes in ff14 like Black mage, machinist etc in high end content.

How about the metaslaves prove their """""skill""""" by playing well and not failing mechanics instead of telling themselves they are great players for copy pasting a wowhead guide which is what the majority of average metaslaves do, they dont perform anywhere near high.

The point is simple, metaslaves aka vast majority of high end players which i am certain includes most people here dont give a damn about their build and if it is something that fits them as a theme or gameplay, all they care about is that it is "optimal", so customization has not achieved anything other than cause problems.

KnightFalz said:
You wouldn't be the one to play the non meta covenant if it were not for the possibility to do so. Customization is preserved to provide choice so that the player has agency over their character.

Yes but me and the people who genuinely use customization are a TINY minority, what happened during shadowlands proves it quite blatantly, customization is ignored even by some casuals for the sake of the meta choice.

Doesnt even matter if they suck at the game, they have told themselves it is important to metaslave.

Not only that, I had to work more and spend more effort for less dps and people who played more non meta classes(even with optimal builds) still had to spend hours trying to find more high end content groups.

So what you are telling me is that customization is great because it causes all those problems and provides nothing of value, or the value it provides is only relevant to a minority like myself.

What is the point of a system if only 5% of your playerbase uses it and the rest of the community ignores it while discriminating against said 5% and cause all those problems.

Dont think we are worth it but thank you for considering us so special xD

How does that solve anything? It depends how far you want to go, if mobs have varying abilities you would have to change your build on the fly. I can't see how there is always going to be one answer with some random thrown in.

Looking at this from a group point of view, if you have to choose your build for a group based on the classes of the group and the opposition, I doubt there are perfect builds. To a certain extent that's what you did in Rift when you grouped, I can remember on long runs players changing their build after they/we realised they/we had made a mistake. But Rifts did not tend to punish you that much for such a blunder, so it was about right in my eyes.

Don't wipe the team, make them realise it is not working and they need to change the composition. The glitch there is how often you can change; I can remember us limping along a few times until a couple of players were able to change build. I am talking the tougher stuff here; general questing was a walkover (like every other MMO), where you rarely had to bother with builds in a group.