The Trinity and Action Combat dont really mix well in MMOs

MMOExposed

Action Combat is good for DPS and games with no trinity group roles. But looking at the Trinity in Action Combat MMOs, the non DPS roles play style is really dull. Healing is much worse in those games. Everything has to be AoE Splash healing. 

Tanking is just as bad, because action combat usually have some kind of stamina/block bar that is usually never well optimized for all the areas of the game and its punishing towards output damage in games that centralize around DPS as the most important role. 

like I said, DPS becomes the main role. Reminds me of Vanilla Guild Wars 2, in which everything was centered around DPS builds. Was totally boring for group gameplay. 

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Amaranthar

I've never liked such refined roles in games not only because it gets boring, but also it affects the ability to solo in a game that doesn't define solo as a separate role in itself. 
In effect, you get stuck in roles and cannot break out of it. 

JudgeUK

Agree, it's the pattern of the different formats. Although differentiating mmos as outside 'action combat' isn't really accurate.

As you say, healers in the splash and dash games have the -throw aoe's into the general mob area where it's all going on - whilst doing a similar amount of dashing about yourself. Ok you'll get it done, there's just no real involvement to the role.

But, is this a real drawback? Both categories have their place with successful games going on. It's just the nature of the beast.

Iselin

Whenever I see a post like this it just makes me wonder what fights would look like if in real life we had long-range magical healing abilities and insults so effective that every opponent would totally disregard everyone except the only guy with heavy armor and a shield doing the taunting.

Let's start the discussion there with the implausibility of conventional tab target combat and its defined roles.

It works only as an abstract form of combat if you're willing to totally ignore simulation credibility. That trinity, tab-target stuff is barely better than other combat abstractions such as MTG, similar fantasy card games, or even chess.

Action combat, so often derided in these boards, is infinitely better for anyone that cares one iota about some measure of realism in combat simulations.

Talraekk

Realistically, in an mmo setting, everything has to be dps now.  The 'flavours' of tanking and healing are side gigs.  (Most dungeons will shoot me for saying that).  Outside of pure group activities (and even then I'd say dps should be more than half a role) being IN a group is far less time than being NOT in a group, ergo, you need to be able to overcome challenges yourself (dps).

lahnmir

Iselin said:

Whenever I see a post like this it just makes me wonder what fights would look like if in real life we had long-range magical healing abilities and insults so effective that every opponent would totally disregard everyone except the only guy with heavy armor and a shield doing the taunting.

Let's start the discussion there with the implausibility of conventional tab target combat and its defined roles.

It works only as an abstract form of combat if you're willing to totally ignore simulation credibility. That trinity, tab-target stuff is barely better than other combat abstractions such as MTG, similar fantasy card games, or even chess.

Action combat, so often derided in these boards, is infinitely better for anyone that cares one iota about some measure of realism in combat simulations.

I completely agree and would even go as far as stating that games like Sekiro, Elden Ring etc. have shown that action combat can easily rival tab target/actionbar combat when it comes to depth and tactics.

/Cheers,
Lahnmir

Angrakhan

Tanking is easy to solve by changing the agro mechanic to be based primarily off proximity not "threat". This is actually logical too. Think about it. You're in a gun fight against a squad. Who do you shoot at first? The guy 400 yards away or the guy 10 feet in front of you? The closest one, of course. At least I would. This is even more true if you're armed with a melee weapon. The guy 400 yards away doesn't even cross your mind because you can't realistically get to him without first dealing with the guy in your face.

Healing is a tougher nut to crack because the advantage tab targeting has is the fact you can just click on or press the hotkey for the party member you want to heal and cast. You typically don't even have to be facing them. Assuming they're in range and pass the line of sight check the ability works.

I can't think of a good way to replace that utility in action combat without doing some hybrid model that uses tab targeting for healers in an action combat game. However, maybe that's an answer.

Ralphie2449

Definitely hope games start moving away from trinity, Destiny 2 is a good example of that, no healers or tanks, it is all about playing and positioning well rather than have to depend on some healer/tank to be decent.

Scot

There are primarily two rules for multiplayer games, All Games Must Have The Same Gameplay and No Player Must Feel He Made A Choice That Disadvantaged Him. A new game should be like putting on a new glove, there must be nothing different in the gameplay whatsoever. Now that's not always possible to achieve, so instead designers go for the As Few Differences As Possible approach.

Tab targeted combat is one hell of a huge difference, in their eyes it has to go, the Trinity relies on different classes where players may think they picked the wrong class, it doubly had to go. Look at classes in Battlefield, change them the next match, in Plantside...quick change it for PS2!

On top of all that strategy favours grouping which brings us to a rule of designing MMOs, The Grouping Experience Musty Never Be Better than The Solo One. Everything in a MMO must make a solo player feel he is getting a better deal than someone who is grouping. Strategy had to go and a zerg is a lot easier for solo guys to join. Solo loving all round.

Yes, action combat in MMOs could be as strategic as Trinity but how often does that happen? Rather than accepting MMOs have some limitations and are expected to be played differently, MMO action combat was shoe horned in. Will we see better action combat, yes, will be see more strategic action combat I doubt it.

KnightFalz

Iselin said:

Action combat, so often derided in these boards, is infinitely better for anyone that cares one iota about some measure of realism in combat simulations.

Action combat can be so when the intent of design is to simulate realism or at least approximate it. Sometimes it is so far removed from that it isn't very realistic at all.

KnightFalz

Scot said:

Yes, action combat in MMOs could be as strategic as Trinity but how often does that happen? Rather than accepting MMOs have some limitations and are expected to be played differently, MMO action combat was shoe horned in. Will we see better action combat, yes, will be see more strategic action combat I doubt it.

I don't know. How often is the strategic element of the action combat in a MMORPG examined in depth rather than rejected out of hand? I don't know that either. but I expect the former is rarer than that latter.

Sovrath

I really loved being a tank in Tera.

We'd go through a dungeon and I'd grab adds with my chain skill and try to keep hate while the others either burned down the enemy or provided healing.

Not clear why you think this doesn't work. Was one of the best mmorpg combat experiences I've ever experienced.

MMOExposed

Iselin said:

Whenever I see a post like this it just makes me wonder what fights would look like if in real life we had long-range magical healing abilities and insults so effective that every opponent would totally disregard everyone except the only guy with heavy armor and a shield doing the taunting.

Let's start the discussion there with the implausibility of conventional tab target combat and its defined roles.

It works only as an abstract form of combat if you're willing to totally ignore simulation credibility. That trinity, tab-target stuff is barely better than other combat abstractions such as MTG, similar fantasy card games, or even chess.

Action combat, so often derided in these boards, is infinitely better for anyone that cares one iota about some measure of realism in combat simulations.

Well look no further than PvP in these same games. You still see the trinity,  it just functions differently, as it's not using AI mechanism,  but instead using actual emotional reactions.

I have explained this before on the old forums. 

But when you really look deep at the trinity and examine it, you can see ? how it works in a player vs player environment. 

*Tanks:
Generally in PvE, Tanks are heavy armored or high damage avoidance or both as in a Bear Druid ? in WoW. This is because the PvE mechanics of tanking is built to simulate front line brawlers. Tanks in PvE are almost always Melee fighters as well just like Brawlers.
In Player Vs Player, Tanks are all the Melee Brawlers. They rush in to the enemy front line with huge in your fact damage spikes which is a threat to your safety and the safety of your allies. You have two choices: handle the Melee attackers or ignore them to go after their support and weaker allies in the back. This isn't a easy choice because sometimes those Brawlers are a serious threat or are seriously mockly annoying. Hence why we use the term Threat, Taunt, and Aggro when talking about Tanks in the trinity since those are just AI simulation of what real life people experience.  A taunt could be somebody tea bagging, and a threat can be a melee Thief jumping around bursting people down from the shadows.

*Healers:
Healers are the second generator of threat. Because they keep people alive and counter incoming enemy debuffs and damage.  Brawlers seem far more menacing in the front lines when no matter how much damage is done to them the health just continues to keep coming back up. That can be a threat to enemies which makes them want to go after Healers. Just like AI mobs would target Healers if they generated too much threat and pulled away aggro from the tanks back in the day.

*DPS:
DPS is the same in PvP and PvE. But I say the ranged DPS fits this theory well since generally they are weaker damage absorbers than Brawlers, but dish out the most threatening damage of them all. Along with CC, they can be a threat,  that enemies have to make a judgement to ignore the menacing Brawlers and Healers to turn their attention to. Usually DPS in dungeons will sacrifice themselves to save Healers as a secondary line of defense, and same is said in Player vs Player. Ranged DPS will stay back with the Healers and when enemies go after Healers, the ranged DPS is there to CC and help slow down the attacks on their Healers until Brawlers can can draw them away or the Range DPS eliminate the threat. 

Iselin

MMOExposed said:

Iselin said:

Whenever I see a post like this it just makes me wonder what fights would look like if in real life we had long-range magical healing abilities and insults so effective that every opponent would totally disregard everyone except the only guy with heavy armor and a shield doing the taunting.

Let's start the discussion there with the implausibility of conventional tab target combat and its defined roles.

It works only as an abstract form of combat if you're willing to totally ignore simulation credibility. That trinity, tab-target stuff is barely better than other combat abstractions such as MTG, similar fantasy card games, or even chess.

Action combat, so often derided in these boards, is infinitely better for anyone that cares one iota about some measure of realism in combat simulations.

Well look no further than PvP in these same games. You still see the trinity,  it just functions differently, as it's not using AI mechanism,  but instead using actual emotional reactions.

I have explained this before on the old forums. 

But when you really look deep at the trinity and examine it, you can see ? how it works in a player vs player environment. 

*Tanks:
Generally in PvE, Tanks are heavy armored or high damage avoidance or both as in a Bear Druid ? in WoW. This is because the PvE mechanics of tanking is built to simulate front line brawlers. Tanks in PvE are almost always Melee fighters as well just like Brawlers.
In Player Vs Player, Tanks are all the Melee Brawlers. They rush in to the enemy front line with huge in your fact damage spikes which is a threat to your safety and the safety of your allies. You have two choices: handle the Melee attackers or ignore them to go after their support and weaker allies in the back. This isn't a easy choice because sometimes those Brawlers are a serious threat or are seriously mockly annoying. Hence why we use the term Threat, Taunt, and Aggro when talking about Tanks in the trinity since those are just AI simulation of what real life people experience.  A taunt could be somebody tea bagging, and a threat can be a melee Thief jumping around bursting people down from the shadows.

*Healers:
Healers are the second generator of threat. Because they keep people alive and counter incoming enemy debuffs and damage.  Brawlers seem far more menacing in the front lines when no matter how much damage is done to them the health just continues to keep coming back up. That can be a threat to enemies which makes them want to go after Healers. Just like AI mobs would target Healers if they generated too much threat and pulled away aggro from the tanks back in the day.

*DPS:
DPS is the same in PvP and PvE. But I say the ranged DPS fits this theory well since generally they are weaker damage absorbers than Brawlers, but dish out the most threatening damage of them all. Along with CC, they can be a threat,  that enemies have to make a judgement to ignore the menacing Brawlers and Healers to turn their attention to. Usually DPS in dungeons will sacrifice themselves to save Healers as a secondary line of defense, and same is said in Player vs Player. Ranged DPS will stay back with the Healers and when enemies go after Healers, the ranged DPS is there to CC and help slow down the attacks on their Healers until Brawlers can can draw them away or the Range DPS eliminate the threat. 

That's nonsense. Any good PvPer knows you go after the healers first. End of story.

They are not a secondary target. They are THE target. whether they are overhealing the brawlers or not.

The AI in MMOs is scripted to allow the illusion of tank aggro to make things nice and simple.

The only legitimate examples I have ever seen of tanks tanking in PvP is by using player collision to have well-armored, high-health players try to body block attempting to keep melee players from getting through to the squishes in the back. but any good ranged players will be trying to identify and focus fire the healers anyway.

Theocritus

The trinity feels more like what an RPG should be.....Action combat not so much.

cheyane

From my experience when I played Wildstar as a healer I was completely unable make any strategic decisions on what buttons to press because it was all too fast and overwhelming and the worst thing was that I felt I was rushing and making mistakes and not having enough time to correctly pick a skill/spell or target the heals properly. I was madly moving out of the way of the red indicators a lot of them were criss-crossing or coming at me and I just picked the first heal button and then trying and failing to aim the heals. It was an unmitigated disaster.

Hats off to all of you who can choose skills from several action bars and have the time to think and choose and target them properly because you're a god in my book. I guess there must obviously be a severe difference between my capacity to make proper decisions in a short space of time and the quality of my response. I am definitely many,many leagues behind most MMORPG players.

Uwakionna

I'd argue the more classic trinity actually works very well with action gameplay.

Thing is, instead of hard tanking and focusing on healing as two parts of the trinity, swap that out for CC and a broader support role.

That said, even DPS and the trinity in general is not as fundamental to the RPG experience as some seem to make it out to be.

Just think of D&D. The fighter and the paladin could tank, but half their job is positioning not just soaking damage. On top of that, every class has some mechanic for effective damage against some window of enemies.

There's multiple classes where instead of tanking, it's about creating optimal situations to exploit enemy weakness.

Yeah sure, the cleric is "the healer", but you intentionally have multiple classes with what's considered at least off-heals, with things like the bard being a very capable healer and, guess what? Also a support role for manipulating combat. Cleric similarly isn't just a healer, they have effective spells and skills for combating undead or even other focuses based on domain chosen.

The most classic of RPGs does not itself adhere to the principle of a holy trinity, because combat itself has more moving parts and more strategic possibilities than that for players to leverage.

The holy trinity as people think of it is a crutch of overly simplistic game design.

cameltosis

Iselin said:

Action combat, so often derided in these boards, is infinitely better for anyone that cares one iota about some measure of realism in combat simulations.

On this point, I absolutely disagree. I have never seen or played any action combat games that come even remotely close to realism. The complete lack of options is one of the biggest detractors from realism.

Maybe in the future, action combat will approach realism (because, in real life combat is action-based). But we're a hell of a long way away from that point, because we lack the input devices that can translate our actions into our characters actions.

More on topic, I don't think action combat and combat roles are incompatible. I think it's usually implemented poorly, but then plenty of tab-target games implement combat roles poorly too.

Also, I never like talking about the trinity. The trinity feels far too limited to me, it's like the bare minimum when it comes to combat roles. Dream bigger! More roles = a better roleplaying game. Lets bring back buffers, debuffers, crowd-control, off-tanks etc. Get creative!

KnightFalz

Theocritus said:

The trinity feels more like what an RPG should be.....Action combat not so much.

The trinity and action combat aren't mutually exclusive. It's not by necessity one or the other.

Iselin

Uwakionna said:

The holy trinity as people think of it is a crutch of overly simplistic game design.

It is exactly that.

Scot

Iselin said:

Uwakionna said:

The holy trinity as people think of it is a crutch of overly simplistic game design.

It is exactly that.

But it works really well, so if you are going to replace it make sure you do so with something that works really well. So-so action combat does not cut it, yet it could at least as action combat.

Theocritus

cheyane said:

From my experience when I played Wildstar as a healer I was completely unable make any strategic decisions on what buttons to press because it was all too fast and overwhelming and the worst thing was that I felt I was rushing and making mistakes and not having enough time to correctly pick a skill/spell or target the heals properly. I was madly moving out of the way of the red indicators a lot of them were criss-crossing or coming at me and I just picked the first heal button and then trying and failing to aim the heals. It was an unmitigated disaster.

Hats off to all of you who can choose skills from several action bars and have the time to think and choose and target them properly because you're a god in my book. I guess there must obviously be a severe difference between my capacity to make proper decisions in a short space of time and the quality of my response. I am definitely many,many leagues behind most MMORPG players.

I wasnt the greatest healer either, but I generally just focused on the main tank or used group heals....I never got far enough in Wildstar to know how hectic it was to heal there.

cheyane

Theocritus said:

cheyane said:

From my experience when I played Wildstar as a healer I was completely unable make any strategic decisions on what buttons to press because it was all too fast and overwhelming and the worst thing was that I felt I was rushing and making mistakes and not having enough time to correctly pick a skill/spell or target the heals properly. I was madly moving out of the way of the red indicators a lot of them were criss-crossing or coming at me and I just picked the first heal button and then trying and failing to aim the heals. It was an unmitigated disaster.

Hats off to all of you who can choose skills from several action bars and have the time to think and choose and target them properly because you're a god in my book. I guess there must obviously be a severe difference between my capacity to make proper decisions in a short space of time and the quality of my response. I am definitely many,many leagues behind most MMORPG players.

I wasnt the greatest healer either, but I generally just focused on the main tank or used group heals....I never got far enough in Wildstar to know how hectic it was to heal there.

I used to be okay in games like FFXIV, WoW but in an action MMORPG I am completely hopeless. I acknowledge it. In a game like that you need more general skills that allow everyone to have some form of healing and be responsible for themselves and trinity healers playing more crowd control and debuff roles.