What happened to mmorpgs ?...Most of them sucked !

delete5230

The right people and companies never materialized. 

In a nutshell this is how it went:
1st generation, invented them
2nd generation, molded them a bit better
3rd generation, greed wiped them out. Very quickly I may add. 


Very amateur.  Strictly game programmers and managers with no motivation to please players, only money.  

The above happened too quickly. GREED TOOK OVER DIRECTLY AFTER WORLD OF WARCRAFT. 


When I noticed it was starting to suck ?.... Warhammer and Guild Wars 2.  Now, Guild Wars 2 could fool many people because it was built well, large and advertised.

Carrot on a stick game play.
Easy combat, in fact easy everything.
Dynamic events where you didn't need anyone. 

The beginning of the end, shortly after it started ! 


(edit)
I remember GW2 release, I built up so much hype because nothing preceded it failed.  A failed mmorpg was not herd of at this early stage.  Well right from the beginning I was put into a cinematic, wasn't expecting that and didn't like it but pressed on.  Soon I I noticed everything died quickly in combat with no challenge a little disappointing but pressed on..... About an hour into the game I found one quest lead into another then another, and the quest line was forcing me north. No other quest around just the one it was pushing.... Strange !..... Usually you go anyplace you want, it was up to the player, but not this, they seem to force you around..... Few hours later I opened the map. It made me go in one direction like reading a book. 

After a few more hours, I began to get the feeling I didn't like the game, It didn't play like an mmorpg at all !!! 

Who ever invented "story driven" in an mmorpg, should be dragged into the bush and we have our way with them   

     

Dibdabs

Well, yes, it's been that way for at least the last several years.  You aren't really telling anyone on here anything new or startling because the topic has been around in one form or another for the same length of time.  Not that you're wrong though.

delete5230

Dibdabs said:

Well, yes, it's been that way for at least the last several years.  You aren't really telling anyone on here anything new or startling because the topic has been around in one form or another for the same length of time.  Not that you're wrong though.

But very quickly... Vultures 

Scot

Currently we have a choice between AAA and AA whom marketing is leading by the nose or indie which is either taking eons to develop or out and struggling yet as good as it gets so far. Albion Online and Project Gorgon seem to be as good as it gets from that lot, for me none are saying "Play Me" right now. Or going back to a tried and trusted MMORPG, which has likely moved on since we last played it into a more marketing led direction.

This whole process took more than 15 years though and it is still continuing, play what you enjoy now as it won't be the same game in a couple of years.

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

Scot

Deathkon1 said:

delete5230 said:

The right people and companies never materialized. 

In a nutshell this is how it went:
1st generation, invented them
2nd generation, molded them a bit better
3rd generation, greed wiped them out. Very quickly I may add. 


Very amateur.  Strictly game programmers and managers with no motivation to please players, only money.  

The above happened too quickly. GREED TOOK OVER DIRECTLY AFTER WORLD OF WARCRAFT. 


When I noticed it was starting to suck ?.... Warhammer and Guild Wars 2.  Now, Guild Wars 2 could fool many people because it was built well, large and advertised.

Carrot on a stick game play.
Easy combat, in fact easy everything.
Dynamic events where you didn't need anyone. 

The beginning of the end, shortly after it started ! 

What went wrong in chronological order video by josh strife 

Its an informative video, but at over 30 mins long I could grind a few more gems for my latest MMO...oh hang on!

To sum it up video games began by selling you gameplay excellence, now they are vehicles for selling you everything but the kitchen sink. Winning, upgrades, skipping content, skins, NFT, crypto, poses, gambling thrill; you name it they sell it and our games increasingly build gameplay around gaining those items to encourage you to buy.

delete5230

Scot said:

Deathkon1 said:

delete5230 said:

The right people and companies never materialized. 

In a nutshell this is how it went:
1st generation, invented them
2nd generation, molded them a bit better
3rd generation, greed wiped them out. Very quickly I may add. 


Very amateur.  Strictly game programmers and managers with no motivation to please players, only money.  

The above happened too quickly. GREED TOOK OVER DIRECTLY AFTER WORLD OF WARCRAFT. 


When I noticed it was starting to suck ?.... Warhammer and Guild Wars 2.  Now, Guild Wars 2 could fool many people because it was built well, large and advertised.

Carrot on a stick game play.
Easy combat, in fact easy everything.
Dynamic events where you didn't need anyone. 

The beginning of the end, shortly after it started ! 

What went wrong in chronological order video by josh strife 

Its an informative video, but at over 30 mins long I could grind a few more gems for my latest MMO...oh hang on!

To sum it up video games began by selling you gameplay excellence, now they are vehicles for selling you everything but the kitchen sink. Winning, upgrades, skipping content, skins, NFT, crypto, poses, gambling thrill; you name it they sell it and our games increasingly build gameplay around gaining those items to encourage you to buy.

The bad part about everything you say here. 
this all started soon after mmorpgs got off the ground. 

madazz

Remember when people on this sub religiously defended F2P games? I remember one user in particular who did. Starts with an N. 

Now look at the MMO landscape. Its so bad none of them even play MMO's anymore, nor do they even visit the sub. 

AAAMEOW

I stopped playing mmorpg.  But mobile games which every people hate on this forum such as Lineage M is making 3.6 billion since its released in 2017.  So I'm sure some people are still playing it.  

I think that's mostly in asia though.  Lineage is mostly played by asians.  

Kyleran

madazz said:

Remember when people on this sub religiously defended F2P games? I remember one user in particular who did. Starts with an N. 

Now look at the MMO landscape. Its so bad none of them even play MMO's anymore, nor do they even visit the sub. 

Ahh yes, @nariusseldon, he hasn't been around much lately, lost interest in the forum wars, what the heck, he basically was on the "winning" side by a mile.

  

Uwakionna

Maybe the "but at what cost" caught up?

eoloe

Delete for president!

Tiller

We know they suck more these days, and so do the wanna-be classic ones; as do most things in this world, but you post this same thread weekly under a different title lol.

DigDuggy

You would need all of you fingers and toes +1 to list why a MMO might fail.  A perfectly good MMO can fail because it comes out at the wrong time or has too little exposure.  Just like perfectly good movies.  Because they suck is only 1 of your toes.

eoloe

Tiller said:

 you post this same thread weekly under a different title lol.

This is why this is so great! There is something fundamentally great in witnessing such a series of variations on a single theme.

Theocritus

I enjoy Josh Strife Hayes...he puts alot of thought into his videos.....

Scot

Kyleran said:

madazz said:

Remember when people on this sub religiously defended F2P games? I remember one user in particular who did. Starts with an N. 

Now look at the MMO landscape. Its so bad none of them even play MMO's anymore, nor do they even visit the sub. 

Ahh yes, @nariusseldon, he hasn't been around much lately, lost interest in the forum wars, what the heck, he basically was on the "winning" side by a mile.

  

All those F2P guys made a million on cypto and have now retired to the Bahamas, to busy lolling on the beach to be on here.

Andemnon

Kyleran said:

madazz said:

Remember when people on this sub religiously defended F2P games? I remember one user in particular who did. Starts with an N. 

Now look at the MMO landscape. Its so bad none of them even play MMO's anymore, nor do they even visit the sub. 

Ahh yes, @nariusseldon, he hasn't been around much lately, lost interest in the forum wars, what the heck, he basically was on the "winning" side by a mile.

  

I remember the guy, well love them or hate them, their opinions mattered though not sure about the 'winning' part? Maybe he is still here under a different name and no i am not him, people do come back under different names though, for one reason or another.

Slapshot1188

Scot said:

Kyleran said:

madazz said:

Remember when people on this sub religiously defended F2P games? I remember one user in particular who did. Starts with an N. 

Now look at the MMO landscape. Its so bad none of them even play MMO's anymore, nor do they even visit the sub. 

Ahh yes, @nariusseldon, he hasn't been around much lately, lost interest in the forum wars, what the heck, he basically was on the "winning" side by a mile.

  

All those F2P guys made a million on cypto and have now retired to the Bahamas, to busy lolling on the beach to be on here.

Only the smart ones.  The others were invested in FTX.

mekhere

delete5230 said:

The right people and companies never materialized. 

In a nutshell this is how it went:
1st generation, invented them
2nd generation, molded them a bit better
3rd generation, greed wiped them out. Very quickly I may add. 


Very amateur.  Strictly game programmers and managers with no motivation to please players, only money.  

The above happened too quickly. GREED TOOK OVER DIRECTLY AFTER WORLD OF WARCRAFT. 


When I noticed it was starting to suck ?.... Warhammer and Guild Wars 2.  Now, Guild Wars 2 could fool many people because it was built well, large and advertised.

Carrot on a stick game play.
Easy combat, in fact easy everything.
Dynamic events where you didn't need anyone. 

The beginning of the end, shortly after it started ! 


(edit)
I remember GW2 release, I built up so much hype because nothing preceded it failed.  A failed mmorpg was not herd of at this early stage.  Well right from the beginning I was put into a cinematic, wasn't expecting that and didn't like it but pressed on.  Soon I I noticed everything died quickly in combat with no challenge a little disappointing but pressed on..... About an hour into the game I found one quest lead into another then another, and the quest line was forcing me north. No other quest around just the one it was pushing.... Strange !..... Usually you go anyplace you want, it was up to the player, but not this, they seem to force you around..... Few hours later I opened the map. It made me go in one direction like reading a book. 

After a few more hours, I began to get the feeling I didn't like the game, It didn't play like an mmorpg at all !!! 

Who ever invented "story driven" in an mmorpg, should be dragged into the bush and we have our way with them   

     

You stated,
"In a nutshell this is how it went:
1st generation, invented them
2nd generation, molded them a bit better
3rd generation, greed wiped them out. Very quickly I may add. "

Let me rewrite this or you!
In a nutshell this is how it went:
1st generation, coded them
2nd generation, laundered bitcoin thru them
3rd generation, greed inspired them to all retire and stop making games
4th generation, learned how to sell graphics for real life money and laugh at the rest of humanity while they made it rain in their new houses no one else can afford.

There I fixed it for you.

KnightFalz

madazz said:

Remember when people on this sub religiously defended F2P games? I remember one user in particular who did. Starts with an N. 

Now look at the MMO landscape. Its so bad none of them even play MMO's anymore, nor do they even visit the sub. 

I remember, and the opposition by some too including myself.

That debate is why I hold the providers and majority of players from that time equally responsible for the MMORPG monetization landscape of today.

Scot

KnightFalz said:

madazz said:

Remember when people on this sub religiously defended F2P games? I remember one user in particular who did. Starts with an N. 

Now look at the MMO landscape. Its so bad none of them even play MMO's anymore, nor do they even visit the sub. 

I remember, and the opposition by some too including myself.

That debate is why I hold the providers and majority of players from that time equally responsible for the MMORPG monetization landscape of today.

I don't agree with the "majority" aspect because it is hard to evaluate who the player base was as MMORPG's changed, but we played our part. Remember that most steps in the changes that were made had the intention of making the player base larger, appealing more and more to players other than those originally interested in MMOs. So the baulk of the players base after no more and probably less than several years were not those from the early days.

The decisions of these subsequent players drove the changes more than our decisions did. But did most of us who were there in the early days stay on as things changed, I think so and there is our complicity. But the sad fact is I don't think they would have changed course if every one of us had dropped out unless we had done so all at once. There were so many new solo gamers, then console then mobile, that at each stage drop off from the earlier players was not a deciding factor.

KnightFalz

Scot said:

KnightFalz said:

madazz said:

Remember when people on this sub religiously defended F2P games? I remember one user in particular who did. Starts with an N. 

Now look at the MMO landscape. Its so bad none of them even play MMO's anymore, nor do they even visit the sub. 

I remember, and the opposition by some too including myself.

That debate is why I hold the providers and majority of players from that time equally responsible for the MMORPG monetization landscape of today.

I don't agree with the "majority" aspect because it is hard to evaluate who the player base was as MMORPG's changed, but we played our part. Remember that most steps in the changes that were made had the intention of making the player base larger, appealing more and more to players other than those originally interested in MMOs. So the baulk of the players base after no more and probably less than several years were not those from the early days.

The decisions of these subsequent players drove the changes more than our decisions did. But did most of us who were there in the early days stay on as things changed, I think so and there is our complicity. But the sad fact is I don't think they would have changed course if every one of us had dropped out unless we had done so all at once. There were so many new solo gamers, then console then mobile, that at each stage drop off from the earlier players was not a deciding factor.

The key point is we played our part, especially early on when resistance would have had the best chance to be effective. It may have failed regardless as you feel. Then again, it may not have. We'll never know because instead of trying to keep the vampire away we instead mostly invited it in across the threshold and offered up our necks.

MMOExposed

delete5230 said:

The right people and companies never materialized. 

In a nutshell this is how it went:
1st generation, invented them
2nd generation, molded them a bit better
3rd generation, greed wiped them out. Very quickly I may add. 


Very amateur.  Strictly game programmers and managers with no motivation to please players, only money.  

The above happened too quickly. GREED TOOK OVER DIRECTLY AFTER WORLD OF WARCRAFT. 


When I noticed it was starting to suck ?.... Warhammer and Guild Wars 2.  Now, Guild Wars 2 could fool many people because it was built well, large and advertised.

Carrot on a stick game play.
Easy combat, in fact easy everything.
Dynamic events where you didn't need anyone. 

The beginning of the end, shortly after it started ! 


(edit)
I remember GW2 release, I built up so much hype because nothing preceded it failed.  A failed mmorpg was not herd of at this early stage.  Well right from the beginning I was put into a cinematic, wasn't expecting that and didn't like it but pressed on.  Soon I I noticed everything died quickly in combat with no challenge a little disappointing but pressed on..... About an hour into the game I found one quest lead into another then another, and the quest line was forcing me north. No other quest around just the one it was pushing.... Strange !..... Usually you go anyplace you want, it was up to the player, but not this, they seem to force you around..... Few hours later I opened the map. It made me go in one direction like reading a book. 

After a few more hours, I began to get the feeling I didn't like the game, It didn't play like an mmorpg at all !!! 

Who ever invented "story driven" in an mmorpg, should be dragged into the bush and we have our way with them   

     

huh GW2 in vanilla didnt have Quest.

Also it was pretty hard early on with nerfs coming later.

The WvW feature was trash because the developers took on an Anti WoW approach to everything so thought it wasnt a good idea to have a squad system. Also population was spread out and the mode lacked gameplay elements besides large zerg fights.

Anti WoW Developers thought Anti Trinity would be a gold mine, so they killed the traditional Trinity group mechanics and built dungeons around that, which was failure since it lead to Stacking and other skipping exploits that killed dungeons.

All was left was open world stuff. Which they did a decent job with up to the expansion format sank in, which originally the developers were against.

Kyleran

MMOExposed said:

delete5230 said:

The right people and companies never materialized. 

In a nutshell this is how it went:
1st generation, invented them
2nd generation, molded them a bit better
3rd generation, greed wiped them out. Very quickly I may add. 


Very amateur.  Strictly game programmers and managers with no motivation to please players, only money.  

The above happened too quickly. GREED TOOK OVER DIRECTLY AFTER WORLD OF WARCRAFT. 


When I noticed it was starting to suck ?.... Warhammer and Guild Wars 2.  Now, Guild Wars 2 could fool many people because it was built well, large and advertised.

Carrot on a stick game play.
Easy combat, in fact easy everything.
Dynamic events where you didn't need anyone. 

The beginning of the end, shortly after it started ! 


(edit)
I remember GW2 release, I built up so much hype because nothing preceded it failed.  A failed mmorpg was not herd of at this early stage.  Well right from the beginning I was put into a cinematic, wasn't expecting that and didn't like it but pressed on.  Soon I I noticed everything died quickly in combat with no challenge a little disappointing but pressed on..... About an hour into the game I found one quest lead into another then another, and the quest line was forcing me north. No other quest around just the one it was pushing.... Strange !..... Usually you go anyplace you want, it was up to the player, but not this, they seem to force you around..... Few hours later I opened the map. It made me go in one direction like reading a book. 

After a few more hours, I began to get the feeling I didn't like the game, It didn't play like an mmorpg at all !!! 

Who ever invented "story driven" in an mmorpg, should be dragged into the bush and we have our way with them   

     

huh GW2 in vanilla didnt have Quest.

Also it was pretty hard early on with nerfs coming later.

The WvW feature was trash because the developers took on an Anti WoW approach to everything so thought it wasnt a good idea to have a squad system. Also population was spread out and the mode lacked gameplay elements besides large zerg fights.

Anti WoW Developers thought Anti Trinity would be a gold mine, so they killed the traditional Trinity group mechanics and built dungeons around that, which was failure since it lead to Stacking and other skipping exploits that killed dungeons.

All was left was open world stuff. Which they did a decent job with up to the expansion format sank in, which originally the developers were against.

Not how I remember the early days of GW2, there were heart quests and dailys, probably one of first games I played with the latter.

The non-trinity combat didn't affect me much as I didn't really get to run organized dungeons seeing as I quit within a month never even getting to level 30 I don't think.

It also had downscaling which I really didn't care for, perhaps one of the bigger reasons why I left as I loath having my progression depreciated.

Unlike some other folks I much prefer upscaling like ESO did as at least I didn't feel like my power had been taken away and I could always run dungeons, trials and world bosses when I was in the mood for a challenge.

Oh, and they had jumping puzzles...which I had more than enough of in SWTOR so out the door I went.

delete5230

Kyleran said:

MMOExposed said:

delete5230 said:

The right people and companies never materialized. 

In a nutshell this is how it went:
1st generation, invented them
2nd generation, molded them a bit better
3rd generation, greed wiped them out. Very quickly I may add. 


Very amateur.  Strictly game programmers and managers with no motivation to please players, only money.  

The above happened too quickly. GREED TOOK OVER DIRECTLY AFTER WORLD OF WARCRAFT. 


When I noticed it was starting to suck ?.... Warhammer and Guild Wars 2.  Now, Guild Wars 2 could fool many people because it was built well, large and advertised.

Carrot on a stick game play.
Easy combat, in fact easy everything.
Dynamic events where you didn't need anyone. 

The beginning of the end, shortly after it started ! 


(edit)
I remember GW2 release, I built up so much hype because nothing preceded it failed.  A failed mmorpg was not herd of at this early stage.  Well right from the beginning I was put into a cinematic, wasn't expecting that and didn't like it but pressed on.  Soon I I noticed everything died quickly in combat with no challenge a little disappointing but pressed on..... About an hour into the game I found one quest lead into another then another, and the quest line was forcing me north. No other quest around just the one it was pushing.... Strange !..... Usually you go anyplace you want, it was up to the player, but not this, they seem to force you around..... Few hours later I opened the map. It made me go in one direction like reading a book. 

After a few more hours, I began to get the feeling I didn't like the game, It didn't play like an mmorpg at all !!! 

Who ever invented "story driven" in an mmorpg, should be dragged into the bush and we have our way with them   

     

huh GW2 in vanilla didnt have Quest.

Also it was pretty hard early on with nerfs coming later.

The WvW feature was trash because the developers took on an Anti WoW approach to everything so thought it wasnt a good idea to have a squad system. Also population was spread out and the mode lacked gameplay elements besides large zerg fights.

Anti WoW Developers thought Anti Trinity would be a gold mine, so they killed the traditional Trinity group mechanics and built dungeons around that, which was failure since it lead to Stacking and other skipping exploits that killed dungeons.

All was left was open world stuff. Which they did a decent job with up to the expansion format sank in, which originally the developers were against.

Not how I remember the early days of GW2, there were heart quests and dailys, probably one of first games I played with the latter.

The non-trinity combat didn't affect me much as I didn't really get to run organized dungeons seeing as I quit within a month never even getting to level 30 I don't think.

It also had downscaling which I really didn't care for, perhaps one of the bigger reasons why I left as I loath having my progression depreciated.

Unlike some other folks I much prefer upscaling like ESO did as at least I didn't feel like my power had been taken away and I could always run dungeons, trials and world bosses when I was in the mood for a challenge.

Oh, and they had jumping puzzles...which I had more than enough of in SWTOR so out the door I went.

Great stuff except the ESO part, ESO sucks.