What Went Wrong with MMOs? 😭

MarleVVLL

Dear fellow MMOers,

what do you think went wrong with MMOs?

Speaking for myself, I no longer have a "MMO home." I'm a vagrant -- a perpetual MMO immigrant who momentarily vacations in one virtual world to the next. This is quite the departure from how I used to conceptualize my relationship with the genre: I played vanilla EQ for years, GW1 for years, Conquer Online for years ... then hopped from game to game over a series of months, then weeks, then sometimes days.

This is in part due to the difference between being a teenager with exceptional amounts of free time to a working professional with a family, yet alas..

• MMOs were initially graphical MUDs that emphasized exploration, community, landownership, & conflict. These were worlds first & games second.

• The "golden era" of MMOs contained 3D MUDs that emphasized at least one of these elements particularly well: Ultima Online, Star Wars Galaxies, EverQuest, & Asheron's Call (..plus several others including Anarchy Online).

• WoW enters the picture and continues to innovate the genre just like EQ/SWG did before while still being tied to its MUDs roots.

• Post-WoW clones replaced worlds with monetized systems while keeping a similar look & feel.

• Today, a resurgence is occurring, fostering to those who still are fond of "MUD based" MMOs whether through private servers, classic incarnations, or new developments (Embers Adrift, Pantheon, Monsters & Memories, Project Gorgon, et cetera).

How do you see the rise, fall, and hopeful renaissance of the MMO genre? How have your gameplay patterns changed overtime?

If interested (although not required), I have also posted on this topic here via video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-DoDTu3Sk8

Amaranthar

MarleVVLL said:

Dear fellow MMOers,

what do you think went wrong with MMOs?

Speaking for myself, I no longer have a "MMO home." I'm a vagrant -- a perpetual MMO immigrant who momentarily vacations in one virtual world to the next. This is quite the departure from how I used to conceptualize my relationship with the genre: I played vanilla EQ for years, GW1 for years, Conquer Online for years ... then hopped from game to game over a series of months, then weeks, then sometimes days.

This is in part due to the difference between being a teenager with exceptional amounts of free time to a working professional with a family, yet alas..

• MMOs were initially graphical MUDs that emphasized exploration, community, landownership, & conflict. These were worlds first & games second.

• The "golden era" of MMOs contained 3D MUDs that emphasized at least one of these elements particularly well: Ultima Online, Star Wars Galaxies, EverQuest, & Asheron's Call (..plus several others including Anarchy Online).

• WoW enters the picture and continues to innovate the genre just like EQ/SWG did before while still being tied to its MUDs roots.

• Post-WoW clones replaced worlds with monetized systems while keeping a similar look & feel.

• Today, a resurgence is occurring, fostering to those who still are fond of "MUD based" MMOs whether through private servers, classic incarnations, or new developments (Embers Adrift, Pantheon, Monsters & Memories, Project Gorgon, et cetera).

How do you see the rise, fall, and hopeful renaissance of the MMO genre? How have your gameplay patterns changed overtime?

If interested (although not required), I have also posted on this topic here via video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-DoDTu3Sk8

Getting back to "Worlds" is the most important thing here, but coupled with the "without paywalls." You can't fully have the World if you have paywalls. 

How this is done is critical to success. 
I am both very excited and tentative out of fear that it might be done in the wrong way. But I'm not sure about how that "wrong way" might play out. 

Let the evolution happen, and lets see. 

Tiller

This your alt Delete?

mekhere

MarleVVLL said:

Dear fellow MMOers,

what do you think went wrong with MMOs?

Speaking for myself, I no longer have a "MMO home." I'm a vagrant -- a perpetual MMO immigrant who momentarily vacations in one virtual world to the next. This is quite the departure from how I used to conceptualize my relationship with the genre: I played vanilla EQ for years, GW1 for years, Conquer Online for years ... then hopped from game to game over a series of months, then weeks, then sometimes days.

This is in part due to the difference between being a teenager with exceptional amounts of free time to a working professional with a family, yet alas..

• MMOs were initially graphical MUDs that emphasized exploration, community, landownership, & conflict. These were worlds first & games second.

• The "golden era" of MMOs contained 3D MUDs that emphasized at least one of these elements particularly well: Ultima Online, Star Wars Galaxies, EverQuest, & Asheron's Call (..plus several others including Anarchy Online).

• WoW enters the picture and continues to innovate the genre just like EQ/SWG did before while still being tied to its MUDs roots.

• Post-WoW clones replaced worlds with monetized systems while keeping a similar look & feel.

• Today, a resurgence is occurring, fostering to those who still are fond of "MUD based" MMOs whether through private servers, classic incarnations, or new developments (Embers Adrift, Pantheon, Monsters & Memories, Project Gorgon, et cetera).

How do you see the rise, fall, and hopeful renaissance of the MMO genre? How have your gameplay patterns changed overtime?

If interested (although not required), I have also posted on this topic here via video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-DoDTu3Sk8

Cryptocurrency is what went wrong with MMO's. The developers and programmers knew that in game currency would move and grow because of the gaming industry. 
After they all one at the MMO irl and cashed out there crypto, they quit and don't make games anymore. Welcome to gaming where you don't matter unless you're a ruthless psychopath who will fight to the death for money.

Angrakhan

Primary thing that went wrong was developers saw the success of WoW and assumed that was the new model to build MMOs. What they didn't consider is that WoW didn't increase the size of the MMO market but rather created it's own market. I know several people including my wife who never played an MMO prior to WoW, fell in love with WoW, played WoW for a significant time, eventually quit WoW maybe sometimes revisiting WoW, but wouldn't touch another MMO with a ten foot pole. I honestly think that's a good chunk of the WoW market. The problem was developers thought they could copycat WoWs model and either steal WoWs market share or replicate their success in creating their own market. Not a single one succeeded. 

I know few people on here ride motorcycles, but I liken it to Harley Davidson riders. There's a whole market that will only consider riding a Harley. There simply is no substitute, and this market share is BIG. Billions of dollars big. WoW is very similar.

mekhere

Angrakhan said:

Primary thing that went wrong was developers saw the success of WoW and assumed that was the new model to build MMOs. What they didn't consider is that WoW didn't increase the size of the MMO market but rather created it's own market. I know several people including my wife who never played an MMO prior to WoW, fell in love with WoW, played WoW for a significant time, eventually quit WoW maybe sometimes revisiting WoW, but wouldn't touch another MMO with a ten foot pole. I honestly think that's a good chunk of the WoW market. The problem was developers thought they could copycat WoWs model and either steal WoWs market share or replicate their success in creating their own market. Not a single one succeeded. 

I know few people on here ride motorcycles, but I liken it to Harley Davidson riders. There's a whole market that will only consider riding a Harley. There simply is no substitute, and this market share is BIG. Billions of dollars big. WoW is very similar.

World of Warcraft and the Russian war machine backed by cryptocurrency mafias is what is wrong with MMO's. Stop equivalizing real time war within game war. They do not go hand in hand. 

delete5230

Tiller said:

This your alt Delete?

No, and I can prove it, this person use way to fancy words beyond my ability's.

I'm a simple kind of guy that is always right ! 

Amaranthar

delete5230 said:

Tiller said:

This your alt Delete?

No, and I can prove it, this person use way to fancy words beyond my ability's.

I'm a simple kind of guy that is always right ! 

Truth! 

delete5230

Amaranthar said:

delete5230 said:

Tiller said:

This your alt Delete?

No, and I can prove it, this person use way to fancy words beyond my ability's.

I'm a simple kind of guy that is always right ! 

Truth! 

Brainy

1) I think that sandbox MMO's focused too much on FFA Full loot.  None would consider allowing PVE servers.  So sandboxes became known as gankboxes/griefests and very niche.

2) I think they completely dumbed down all the PVE MMO themeparks.  Also no themepark studio seems to know how to deliver the Core WoW package.  They all make subpar WoW clones.  So all new themeparks keeping failing.

3) New games are too focused on cash grabs, loot boxes, crypto, cash shops etc...

Combining all these gives you a dead MMO genre.

delete5230

delete5230 said:

Amaranthar said:

delete5230 said:

Tiller said:

This your alt Delete?

No, and I can prove it, this person use way to fancy words beyond my ability's.

I'm a simple kind of guy that is always right ! 

Truth! 

Sometimes I can't link two words together.  Some times I'll over heat and sit under a tree for a few hours like a cheetah after he runs 70 mph chasing its pray.

Brainy

MarleVVLL said:

If interested (although not required), I have also posted on this topic here via video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-DoDTu3Sk8

Just watched this video, some pretty solid analysis on that video.  Cant really disagree much with it.  

Bartle taxonomy of player types
Achievers, Explorers, Socializers, and Killers.

I agree the person coming up with this did it during muds.  Why is this only mud theory thou? Seems like it can be applied outside of muds, to all games.  I think you are pushing a little hard on mud theory, instead of focusing on this player type concept in general.

Tuor7

WoW happened.  Once that occurred, people who had nothing to do with online gaming saw BIG BUCKS and scrambled to get their share.

Also, the surge of Asian games, because their consumer base expected and wanted different things than Western players, and with it came free-to-play games which monetized everything and sold shortcuts to people willing to pay for them.

I think the above are some of the main reasons why we're where we are today.

Sovrath

Angrakhan said:

Primary thing that went wrong was developers saw the success of WoW and assumed that was the new model to build MMOs. What they didn't consider is that WoW didn't increase the size of the MMO market but rather created it's own market. I know several people including my wife who never played an MMO prior to WoW, fell in love with WoW, played WoW for a significant time, eventually quit WoW maybe sometimes revisiting WoW, but wouldn't touch another MMO with a ten foot pole. I honestly think that's a good chunk of the WoW market. The problem was developers thought they could copycat WoWs model and either steal WoWs market share or replicate their success in creating their own market. Not a single one succeeded. 

I know few people on here ride motorcycles, but I liken it to Harley Davidson riders. There's a whole market that will only consider riding a Harley. There simply is no substitute, and this market share is BIG. Billions of dollars big. WoW is very similar.

Absolutely! I was just coming to say pretty much the same thing. This is spot on.

Brainy

Sovrath said:

Angrakhan said:

Primary thing that went wrong was developers saw the success of WoW and assumed that was the new model to build MMOs. What they didn't consider is that WoW didn't increase the size of the MMO market but rather created it's own market. I know several people including my wife who never played an MMO prior to WoW, fell in love with WoW, played WoW for a significant time, eventually quit WoW maybe sometimes revisiting WoW, but wouldn't touch another MMO with a ten foot pole. I honestly think that's a good chunk of the WoW market. The problem was developers thought they could copycat WoWs model and either steal WoWs market share or replicate their success in creating their own market. Not a single one succeeded. 

I know few people on here ride motorcycles, but I liken it to Harley Davidson riders. There's a whole market that will only consider riding a Harley. There simply is no substitute, and this market share is BIG. Billions of dollars big. WoW is very similar.

Absolutely! I was just coming to say pretty much the same thing. This is spot on.

Its a bunch of malarkey.  New world sold 25mil copies a year ago yet now only has 50k players.  People tried it and didnt like it.  There are tons of people sitting out right now not playing any MMO at all waiting for a big MMO that is good to come out.

WoW didnt even sell 25mil copies its first year.


These MMO's that have been coming out are being tried and people are immediately leaving with bad reviews.  Its not a shortage of players, its a shortage of MMO quality.

eoloe

Streamlining happened.

No more real change nor creativity, killing the overall interest.

OG_Solareus

Board room suits.

Sovrath

Brainy said:

Sovrath said:

Angrakhan said:

Primary thing that went wrong was developers saw the success of WoW and assumed that was the new model to build MMOs. What they didn't consider is that WoW didn't increase the size of the MMO market but rather created it's own market. I know several people including my wife who never played an MMO prior to WoW, fell in love with WoW, played WoW for a significant time, eventually quit WoW maybe sometimes revisiting WoW, but wouldn't touch another MMO with a ten foot pole. I honestly think that's a good chunk of the WoW market. The problem was developers thought they could copycat WoWs model and either steal WoWs market share or replicate their success in creating their own market. Not a single one succeeded. 

I know few people on here ride motorcycles, but I liken it to Harley Davidson riders. There's a whole market that will only consider riding a Harley. There simply is no substitute, and this market share is BIG. Billions of dollars big. WoW is very similar.

Absolutely! I was just coming to say pretty much the same thing. This is spot on.

Its a bunch of malarkey.  New world sold 25mil copies a year ago yet now only has 50k players.  People tried it and didnt like it.  There are tons of people sitting out right now not playing any MMO at all waiting for a big MMO that is good to come out.

WoW didnt even sell 25mil copies its first year.


These MMO's that have been coming out are being tried and people are immediately leaving with bad reviews.  Its not a shortage of players, its a shortage of MMO quality.

New World sold more copies because there are more people playing, or are willing to play, an mmorpg.

He's absolutely correct. Developers saw World of Warcraft and though that "this" was what people wanted. And World of Warcraft was easy to get into, got rid of a lot of things that players would not want to do (such as grind) and it sort of achieved a critical mass with players and very casual players who thought it was just "fun."

A lot of new players were turned on to this type of game. So yeah, there is a much larger group of people willing to try an mmorpg now and that's why New World sold so much. And of course, New World lost players because there wasn't the staying power for those more casual players, those who found some sort of magic with games like World of Warcraft.

Theocritus

Brainy said:

Sovrath said:

Angrakhan said:

Primary thing that went wrong was developers saw the success of WoW and assumed that was the new model to build MMOs. What they didn't consider is that WoW didn't increase the size of the MMO market but rather created it's own market. I know several people including my wife who never played an MMO prior to WoW, fell in love with WoW, played WoW for a significant time, eventually quit WoW maybe sometimes revisiting WoW, but wouldn't touch another MMO with a ten foot pole. I honestly think that's a good chunk of the WoW market. The problem was developers thought they could copycat WoWs model and either steal WoWs market share or replicate their success in creating their own market. Not a single one succeeded. 

I know few people on here ride motorcycles, but I liken it to Harley Davidson riders. There's a whole market that will only consider riding a Harley. There simply is no substitute, and this market share is BIG. Billions of dollars big. WoW is very similar.

Absolutely! I was just coming to say pretty much the same thing. This is spot on.

Its a bunch of malarkey.  New world sold 25mil copies a year ago yet now only has 50k players.  People tried it and didnt like it.  There are tons of people sitting out right now not playing any MMO at all waiting for a big MMO that is good to come out.

WoW didnt even sell 25mil copies its first year.


These MMO's that have been coming out are being tried and people are immediately leaving with bad reviews.  Its not a shortage of players, its a shortage of MMO quality.

If you think about it though, getting the money up front in a B2P format is smart in 2023....Most players dont stick around longer than a month or two, so they are starting to charge more up front knowing the players will most likely leave. If you compare now to the early days of MMOs, there just weren tmany gaming choices back then....THere were some good single player games, but not the massive amounts we have today.

Ralphie2449

Evolving, video games exists to make money therefore their goal is to try attract as many people as possible.

And you dont do that by trying to pander to some tiny tryhard minority that obsesses over high end content, which is funny because it is clear many companies know this lesson but you keep seeing devs try to push it through due to their own nostalgia.

People like games they can have fun, they login, they jump in some content, beat said content, get reward that makes their character more powerful or advance the story/tree or whatever and do the same the next day.

But when a dev tries to cater to high end tryhards what happens is all good rewards are locked behind high end content which you cant do solo, you cant even que for it, you have to suffer through finding manual groups and dealing with people some of which which be obnoxious tryhards others would be tryhards who suck at the game and fail the run and so many more. And said games casual content usually have such worthless rewards in casual content there's no point.

Difference is simple, in the former you log in, press a que button and enjoy the gameplay.

In the latter, you have suffer through a lot just to get to the gameplay part with no guarantee it will be successful either.

Hence why mmos are becoming more and more solo friendly these days.

DigDuggy

Nothing went wrong with MMOs.  I think this is a grand misconception.  The 'rose colored glasses effect'  I think that the early days aren't as grand as we remember, although, since things were newer, there was a sense of wonder and excitement.  Also, there were very few MMOs compared to now.  It's only natural that the incredible increase in the digi world, there would be more trash.

Brainy

Theocritus said:

If you think about it though, getting the money up front in a B2P format is smart in 2023....Most players dont stick around longer than a month or two, so they are starting to charge more up front knowing the players will most likely leave. If you compare now to the early days of MMOs, there just weren tmany gaming choices back then....THere were some good single player games, but not the massive amounts we have today.

Yep the studios know how to separate people from there wallets, even for subpar games.

People dont stick around, because the games are absolute garbage.  Look at the user ratings, completely in the tank.

If you want to see a real bank roll, wait until 1 of these studios actually makes a game that is good.

Amaranthar

Qbertq said:

Nothing went wrong with MMOs.  I think this is a grand misconception.  The 'rose colored glasses effect'  I think that the early days aren't as grand as we remember, although, since things were newer, there was a sense of wonder and excitement.  Also, there were very few MMOs compared to now.  It's only natural that the incredible increase in the digi world, there would be more trash.

I think the "rose colored glasses effect" claim is wrong. 
Gamers are able to look at the game features and determine what affect those features had on their gaming experience. 
Gamers are not a bunch of imbeciles. They can think and use logic. 

Ralphie2449

Amaranthar said:

Gamers are not a bunch of imbeciles. They can think and use logic. 

I am sure that is why many believed classic wow raiding was hard and some ebic achiebment only for the raids to be cleared within minutes xD

Or talking about wow classic gameplay as if it wasnt extremely slow and basic to the point anyone who has experienced decent combat gameplay would instantly recognize as terribad but muh nostalgia.

Gamers TM are the last people I would trust these days xD

Brainy

Sovrath said:

Brainy said:

Sovrath said:

Angrakhan said:

Primary thing that went wrong was developers saw the success of WoW and assumed that was the new model to build MMOs. What they didn't consider is that WoW didn't increase the size of the MMO market but rather created it's own market. I know several people including my wife who never played an MMO prior to WoW, fell in love with WoW, played WoW for a significant time, eventually quit WoW maybe sometimes revisiting WoW, but wouldn't touch another MMO with a ten foot pole. I honestly think that's a good chunk of the WoW market. The problem was developers thought they could copycat WoWs model and either steal WoWs market share or replicate their success in creating their own market. Not a single one succeeded. 

I know few people on here ride motorcycles, but I liken it to Harley Davidson riders. There's a whole market that will only consider riding a Harley. There simply is no substitute, and this market share is BIG. Billions of dollars big. WoW is very similar.

Absolutely! I was just coming to say pretty much the same thing. This is spot on.

Its a bunch of malarkey.  New world sold 25mil copies a year ago yet now only has 50k players.  People tried it and didnt like it.  There are tons of people sitting out right now not playing any MMO at all waiting for a big MMO that is good to come out.

WoW didnt even sell 25mil copies its first year.


These MMO's that have been coming out are being tried and people are immediately leaving with bad reviews.  Its not a shortage of players, its a shortage of MMO quality.

New World sold more copies because there are more people playing, or are willing to play, an mmorpg.

He's absolutely correct. Developers saw World of Warcraft and though that "this" was what people wanted. And World of Warcraft was easy to get into, got rid of a lot of things that players would not want to do (such as grind) and it sort of achieved a critical mass with players and very casual players who thought it was just "fun."

A lot of new players were turned on to this type of game. So yeah, there is a much larger group of people willing to try an mmorpg now and that's why New World sold so much. And of course, New World lost players because there wasn't the staying power for those more casual players, those who found some sort of magic with games like World of Warcraft.

Yep new world attracts massive players who promptly quit near max level.

I am not saying New World is the worst game.  Its a AAA with a decent 1-50 experience.  Its main problem is that it cannot retain players past 50.  Think about it, this game is getting tens of thousands of sales per month, and somehow is losing 10k+ average players per month.  It only has 30k average players left right now.  Not a great looking future here.

It is the only decent AAA MMO to release in the last 7+ years, so it has the entire "new player" market to itself and yet cant retain them or anyone other player base.

Amaranthar

Ralphie2449 said:

Amaranthar said:

Gamers are not a bunch of imbeciles. They can think and use logic. 

I am sure that is why many believed classic wow raiding was hard and some ebic achiebment only for the raids to be cleared within minutes xD

Or talking about wow classic gameplay as if it wasnt extremely slow and basic to the point anyone who has experienced decent combat gameplay would instantly recognize as terribad but muh nostalgia.

Gamers TM are the last people I would trust these days xD

I think you're confusing "too hard" with "too long"? 
Remember that thing about optimal play needed breaks or short periods of "down time."