I don't think it's in trouble, it's just the nature of the genre itself makes the market always in an oversaturated state, companies realized it and moved on to more profitable pastures. The pie is cut in way too many slices and has been for at least a decade.
Maybe the Riot MMO will be cool.
No developers are making garbage, and players are finally getting sick of their crap.
Maybe…but my contention is that even if they were all masterpieces, there will never be enough people who subscribe to the mmo play style - which is far more of a time commitment than typical casual gaming- to keep every game thriving.
I dunno how you address the infinite lifecycle model in the genre, but it’s real. Nobody worries about madden 23 cannibalizing madden 22, but it’s a real issue in the mmo space.
Why do you need to keep them all thriving? We need some churn.
In other genres you have subsequent versions that replace the previous version. Just like your madden example.
Elder Scrolls 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, etc...
Better mmo's should be replaceing older mmo's that are not as good or up to date. This is not happening because MMO's are actually getting worse than the previous version. Why should people leave something that is better than what is coming out.
The answer is make better MMO's than the previous version? They will sunset on their own once the player counts goes so low that 1 server is no longer profitable.
This happen in other genres. Ark devs though Atlas was the future, they even came out and said they would no longer develop Ark. Atlas bombed, they went back developing Ark. IF Ark 2 is better than Ark, Ark will lose its customer base to Ark2.
This should be the cycle, its not hard to figure out.
MMORPGs cost way more than Madden to make or even single player games like Skyrim and yet Skyrim is still being milked from when it came out in 2011.
If developers don't want to invest in new MMORPGs you won't be seeing anything new. We will be stuck with what we have and mobile MMORPGs. Making all these statements about how no good MMORPG is coming out isn't going to magically produce something.
Everyone knows what the issues are but that does not mean any AAA developers is interested in making the dream game we seem to be pining for. I don't see anything worth rooting for, do you?
I don't think it's in trouble, it's just the nature of the genre itself makes the market always in an oversaturated state, companies realized it and moved on to more profitable pastures. The pie is cut in way too many slices and has been for at least a decade.
Maybe the Riot MMO will be cool.
No developers are making garbage, and players are finally getting sick of their crap.
Maybe…but my contention is that even if they were all masterpieces, there will never be enough people who subscribe to the mmo play style - which is far more of a time commitment than typical casual gaming- to keep every game thriving.
I dunno how you address the infinite lifecycle model in the genre, but it’s real. Nobody worries about madden 23 cannibalizing madden 22, but it’s a real issue in the mmo space.
Why do you need to keep them all thriving? We need some churn.
In other genres you have subsequent versions that replace the previous version. Just like your madden example.
Elder Scrolls 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, etc...
Better mmo's should be replaceing older mmo's that are not as good or up to date. This is not happening because MMO's are actually getting worse than the previous version. Why should people leave something that is better than what is coming out.
The answer is make better MMO's than the previous version? They will sunset on their own once the player counts goes so low that 1 server is no longer profitable.
This happen in other genres. Ark devs though Atlas was the future, they even came out and said they would no longer develop Ark. Atlas bombed, they went back developing Ark. IF Ark 2 is better than Ark, Ark will lose its customer base to Ark2.
This should be the cycle, its not hard to figure out.
But online games are usually software as service with constant update in hope of people playing forever.
And it is actually very hard to surpase old mmorpg because it is being developed for a very long time. World of Warcraft is being developed for 25 years with 25 years of content.
The most popular RTS is starcraft 2 being made in 2010 and most popular MOBA is League of Legends made in 2009. And I wouldn't be surprised if somone told me starcraft 1 is more popular and it is made in 1998.
And the money being pulled in to making and updating games like wow or FFIV or GW2 etc etc is enormous. You simply can't beat them unless you pull in as money as them. That is probably the biggest reason.
You can argue New World is a collosus failure. But it is one of the most played mmorpg ever. At least in terms of western made mmorpg. I think you are arguing 30k concurrent players is low, but that is similar to Eve numbers. Monthly player is much larger. And the reason New World didn't flop because it throw in huge amount of resources. I can't think of many indie studio actually make successful mmorpg besides EvE which started small.
I wouldn't say the market in general is saturated, but I would point out the oversaturation of particular genres or subgenres within.
Thing to consider with MMOs and live service titles similarly is sunk cost as well as breadth of content offerings, along with the flipside of that butting heads against a "content locust" mentality.
Not sure I get the Doom v Fortnite thing, given target audience is a consideration there.
This isn't saying all genres are oversaturated , hence "currently catered to". And yeah some of them also fall under the "for lack of competition" banner.
Look at New World, it had 25mil copies sold after only a few months.
WoW only sold like 800k copies its first 3 months. Eso only had 1.2mil copies sold at launch.
Its not a lack of customers, its a retention problem.
There is no extra cost to play New World after initial purchase. Yet it is barely getting 30k players right now. If they would have retained the 25mil players studios would all be trying to copy the New World formula. 24mil+ players wont even play this game FREE (since they already made the B2P purchase).
The vast majority of players in New World have never even done any end game dungeons. People have quit way before that because they know the End Game is totally flawed. So this is not a content locust problem in this case.
What other MMO is even worthy of playing in the last 7 years?
There has been a 7 year drought in MMO's and still these new MMO's cant get anyone to play.
Imagine if a decent movie was released and was the only 1 in theaters for 8 months LOL. It would probably be one of the highest selling just by default (unless covid stopped people).
The deck it totally stacked in favor of these new MMO's yet none can even perform. (more intenet players, more gamers alive, lack of new releases, most are free or low cost, technology enhancements) When new studios have all these advantages and it still cant even beat a 20 year old game. There is a huge problem.
If someone wants to say in 2007 there was a saturation problem. MAYBE that could be plausible. But in 2023 with a 7 year drought with FEW AAA games released. Blaming saturation is just an excuse.
For me, want I want to play is not n table. Old MMORPGs have embraced "the new stuff", erasing what once made them fun (for me).
EQ 1 got my money for 3+ years and I never got a character past level 40. Yet, I had FUN in the game. In their gameplay pyramid, I explored in depth all of the starting areas, races, and classes at the time. I got many of my alts to level 20 (last name level), but not far after that.
Most MMOs today have lost their "RPG" element that older MMORPGs had: Living worlds. Action combat is the norm. PvP is in nearly every game in some form or other. Some PvP is separated into "areas" and some is open world. Still, there is PvP.
Most "RPG" today has decisions about "which attack/defense gives me more power." I played RPGs based on ideas and concepts. My Druids wore the skin of dead animals. My Paladins wore plate armor. My magic users wear robes. A lot of my ideas stem from D&D and other tabletop game systems, but they are what I'm looking for. Most MMOs today are based on the "everyone can do everything" philosophy. This has zero appeal for me. That means MMOs today are built for ONE character playthroughs and "wait for expansions."
Yes, many more people have better access. I started EQ 1 dialing through AOL in 2001. If I didn't remember to turn off "call waiting", I could disconnected whenever called my number. Most players would dedicate weekends to playing their MMORPG. Today, players are pulled in a myriad of directions that constantly call for their attention. Streaming services abounds with videos when you want to them, Twitter and Instagram seem to be apps that many seem to be unable to put down for than a minute (hour?) or two.
The gamescape has indeed changed. Players who never would have played the old MMORPGs have zero interest in the genre as a whole. Others, that played the old MMORPGs like and enjoy the new games. That cool! But the selection of "old style games" is very limited right now. When that old style and attitude are less than 1% of the whole, not much selection from those players viewpoint.
On the flip side, if a player enjoys the MMOs of today and even the older ones that have "adapted", they have a plethora of choices. This debate will go on forever. No ONE MMO will ever please everyone
(I just saw this thread, so my apologies if this has been addressed already. Also, please excuse my typos!)
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
There are a lot of MMOs in development. Also, many MMOs stay in a perpetual state of 'released, but not technically released' I don't think the genre is in trouble. I don't think you can expect every year or couple of years to have bumper crops.
But a point I want to make is there are many people complaining on the forum. But I dont' think the people complaining even agree with each other. You could ask everyone complaining and their favorite game is probably all different and they seemed to all think mmorpg should be designed differently.
I agree there are alot of differing opinions. What I have seen is many of these people dont even know what they want and how their ideas will effect their own long term enjoyment of the game.
People say they want these super niche features.
One of the biggest things for an MMO is a thriving playerbase. A big playerbase is likely to drive additional sales. If you have really niche mechanics that drive away the playerbase then many others will leave with them. I hear this all the time where people say they love this "niche game and its mechanics" then when asked why they dont play it if its their perfect game, they say because nobody else is.
So some mechanics, even thou some people might like the ability to do it occassionally might actually drive away so much of the playerbase that it kills the game. PK & griefing is an example of this IMO. If you are going to allow this, then stick it on its own server, so it doesnt bring down the rest of your playerbase.
TLDR Devs need to be smart and figure out which mechanics are really important, and which mechanics people are just saying are important but can live without. If the mechanic is super controversial, then stick it on its own server.
Yes. The trick is finding that "sweet spot" needed for MMORPGs. I blame Blizzard (WoW) for state of MMOs today. They made so much money that "millions of players" became the new baseline instead of "Hundreds of thousands" players.
I've been preaching (from my desktop foxhole) that MMORPGs should PICK a playerbase and stick to it. Cut that "millions of players" goal back to "hundreds of thousands of players" and insure those players are satisfied. If 150K players paying monthly is not enough to keep your lights on, maybe you're doing it wrong? lol
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
I don't think it's in trouble, it's just the nature of the genre itself makes the market always in an oversaturated state, companies realized it and moved on to more profitable pastures. The pie is cut in way too many slices and has been for at least a decade.
Maybe the Riot MMO will be cool.
No developers are making garbage, and players are finally getting sick of their crap.
Someone is enjoying them. They still in business.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Everyone knows what the issues are but that does not mean any AAA developers is interested in making the dream game we seem to be pining for. I don't see anything worth rooting for, do you?
First I dont believe developers have identified the problem.
The first step to solving a problem is to admit there is a problem. We are still waiting for the industry to get there head around that.
Entertainment executives are notoriously moronic. Look at movies, LOTR Peter Jackson got denied by multiple studios that told him him his concept would fail and nobody would fund it. Finally to get funding he had to shoot all 3 movies at the same time on 1 movies budget. The movies were wildly successful and yet what other production companies came out with similar movies using a different IP in the past 20 years?
When James Cameron made Avatar 1, the 20th century fox executives told him his 3 hour movie wouldnt sell, and demanded he change it. He told them to get the blank out of his office. Surprise surprise top selling movie all time.
You think these entertainment exectives from gaming are any different? These studios are playing darts in the dark from 100 yards away. They are completely clueless what drives customers retention.
I don't think it's in trouble, it's just the nature of the genre itself makes the market always in an oversaturated state, companies realized it and moved on to more profitable pastures. The pie is cut in way too many slices and has been for at least a decade.
Maybe the Riot MMO will be cool.
No developers are making garbage, and players are finally getting sick of their crap.
Maybe…but my contention is that even if they were all masterpieces, there will never be enough people who subscribe to the mmo play style - which is far more of a time commitment than typical casual gaming- to keep every game thriving.
I dunno how you address the infinite lifecycle model in the genre, but it’s real. Nobody worries about madden 23 cannibalizing madden 22, but it’s a real issue in the mmo space.
I stopped at Madden 10/11 and NCAA 12. After these games, The new held no interest me, except roster updates that should NOT be a full priced game. I know plenty of players eagerly "the next new Madden", and EA makes billions with iteration.
I did buy Madden after 11. I have up to 15/25(They changed their numbering system along the way?), but don't play them. NCAA is gone. These "newer games" did make minor game play changes that I didn't like.
EQ 2 never grabbed my interest, way back when. The graphics were so jarring that when I created an Elf in Kelethin, it changed so much I didn't feel like I was EQ. Many player liked it, so good for them
In the beginning, or shortly thereafter, there was a solid playerbase (possibly a few million?). That was split between a handful of games and MMORPGs could survive. Then WoW hit and that playerbase blew up. That and the advent of better and cheaper internet connections. So did the number of MMORPGs. Still, many of that "new playerbase" were just "lookie-loos" that just wanted to see what all of the fuss was about. Some stayed on, but many moved on (or back) to other games more to their liking.
Retention has always been a problem for MMORPGs. Make the gameplay too slow, and players complain. Make the gameplay too fast and players complain. We all recall the "hell levels" of the games we played where it took "forever" to advance to next level. Many players were lost here. Meanwhile, the devs are trying to churn out the next expansion for the top tier players.
What's the answer? I have no idea
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Yes. The trick is finding that "sweet spot" needed for MMORPGs. I blame Blizzard (WoW) for state of MMOs today. They made so much money that "millions of players" became the new baseline instead of "Hundreds of thousands" players.
I've been preaching (from my desktop foxhole) that MMORPGs should PICK a playerbase and stick to it. Cut that "millions of players" goal back to "hundreds of thousands of players" and insure those players are satisfied. If 150K players paying monthly is not enough to keep your lights on, maybe you're doing it wrong? lol
I dont understand this concept. There are so many gamers today. A decent game will get 5 mil units sold without even batting an eyelash. Anything that appeals to customers sells millions of units. Even trash games that lose 99.9% of their players within a couple of months, sell millions of units. If a game cant sell millions of units in todays world, its probably just a really really trash game. Prove me wrong, show me an amazing game released in 2022+ that doesnt sell at least 5mil+ in a year.
When you say 150k players only, you are basically asking for a super trashy game. You might end up with 150k after 99% of the players leave.
Just look at Elden Ring, very niche, stuck to its core players, hard playstyle, 17.5 mil sales this year.
Games dont have to appeal to the everybody gets a trophy crowd just to sell 20mil units. Al you need is a decent game.
I don't think it's in trouble, it's just the nature of the genre itself makes the market always in an oversaturated state, companies realized it and moved on to more profitable pastures. The pie is cut in way too many slices and has been for at least a decade.
Maybe the Riot MMO will be cool.
No developers are making garbage, and players are finally getting sick of their crap.
Maybe…but my contention is that even if they were all masterpieces, there will never be enough people who subscribe to the mmo play style - which is far more of a time commitment than typical casual gaming- to keep every game thriving.
I dunno how you address the infinite lifecycle model in the genre, but it’s real. Nobody worries about madden 23 cannibalizing madden 22, but it’s a real issue in the mmo space.
Why do you need to keep them all thriving? We need some churn.
In other genres you have subsequent versions that replace the previous version. Just like your madden example.
Elder Scrolls 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, etc...
Better mmo's should be replaceing older mmo's that are not as good or up to date. This is not happening because MMO's are actually getting worse than the previous version. Why should people leave something that is better than what is coming out.
The answer is make better MMO's than the previous version? They will sunset on their own once the player counts goes so low that 1 server is no longer profitable.
This happen in other genres. Ark devs though Atlas was the future, they even came out and said they would no longer develop Ark. Atlas bombed, they went back developing Ark. IF Ark 2 is better than Ark, Ark will lose its customer base to Ark2.
This should be the cycle, its not hard to figure out.
Because Madden mainly up[dates rosters.
Elder scrolls were games that presented new stories, new places to explore, new game mechanics, and basically very different games. Madden is the same game every year with a little tweak here or there.
Build a house in one MMORPG and you're not quick leave it for "the next new thing." Retention is built into MMORPGs. Thus, new expansions and patches are essential to MMORPGs. These are also divisive among the playerbase where changes may annoy some and please others.
Then there is the balance between new players and old veterans. Yes, retention in MMORPGs is not easy, but important if you want to keep the players you've cultivated
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
PS: I meant to thank @cameltosis for this thread! This is a fun and enjoyable mind exercise
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Retention has always been a problem for MMORPGs. Make the gameplay too slow, and players complain. Make the gameplay too fast and players complain. We all recall the "hell levels" of the games we played where it took "forever" to advance to next level. Many players were lost here. Meanwhile, the devs are trying to churn out the next expansion for the top tier players.
I dont see the problem the same as you. I dont agree retention has always been a problem. Too much retention early on sort of caused the problem we see now. Early on almost all MMO's were growing. This put devs into a difficult situation, do they release a 2nd version and lose some of the original playerbase or just focus on the game we have.
UO2 I am sure was canned multiple time because they didnt want to lose their existing playerbase.
WoW2 probably the same thing.
If players would have bought the game, played it for a year then quit happy (no expansions), they would have just made the expansion into another game version. This is what the industry needed so they could leave the mistakes behind instead of trying to integrate the mistake into the existing game.
Notice the charts on so many failed games (warhammer, vanguard, star trek online, tabula rasa). Watch how they spike then immediately die. This is what is happening to MMO's now. This is what the chart looks like for garbage.
During the same period these games were dieing, other games were increasing subs just fine. Most of the MMO's that were increasign subs back then are still around now.
So when you see charts like that you know quality is the problem and not the lack of customers. They cant retain their customers. Good games either slowly build their customers or at least level out fairly quickly.
Everyone knows what the issues are but that does not mean any AAA developers is interested in making the dream game we seem to be pining for. I don't see anything worth rooting for, do you?
First I dont believe developers have identified the problem.
The first step to solving a problem is to admit there is a problem. We are still waiting for the industry to get there head around that.
Entertainment executives are notoriously moronic. Look at movies, LOTR Peter Jackson got denied by multiple studios that told him him his concept would fail and nobody would fund it. Finally to get funding he had to shoot all 3 movies at the same time on 1 movies budget. The movies were wildly successful and yet what other production companies came out with similar movies using a different IP in the past 20 years?
When James Cameron made Avatar 1, the 20th century fox executives told him his 3 hour movie wouldnt sell, and demanded he change it. He told them to get the blank out of his office. Surprise surprise top selling movie all time.
You think these entertainment exectives from gaming are any different? These studios are playing darts in the dark from 100 yards away. They are completely clueless what drives customers retention.
I believe developers are not interested in making lasting products. They'd rather make something that last a few years and write off losses because it costs too much to develop what you and I want. They have decided to make cheaper games with content that can be supported through monetization and systems like the despised BDO gear advancement gouged by a cash shop and still come out making money.
I used to have fridges that lasted me 20 years now they last ten years.
Developers are not interested in long term support. They'd rather make smaller cheaper games that will garner them huge sales with no need to support the game beyond 18 months. It's a win for them. Initially players buy into the game and buy the monetization all the time thinking the game is going to be supported for a long time having drawn their circle of friends into it and then only to find the population dwindling and the game going on life support while the company goes on to make another game perhaps even in another genre.
They cut the staff and have smaller teams that are simply unequipped to constantly keep up with churn and expansions and finally simply place the game on life support if we're lucky but most likely just shut it down. Previously games stayed up but now they shut down far easier and in shorter and shorter life spans. Coincidence or a pattern of doing business?
Better still developers like Mark Jacobs don't even need to deliver a working product and can still draw investment and make money. Do I even have to point to Chris Roberts for you to see.
Amazon is trying hard because they don't want to fail but all those developers we put our faith in like Richard Garriot, Mark Jacobs or Raph Koster have delivered crap. They're not even trying. They are milking their past accolades and we are still hoping. How much more foolishness do we have in us before you realise that it is not going to happen.
You think with all the data, surveys and discussions developers are not aware of what the players want. No they are chasing the buck and we are the ones left holding the bag. Come on they mock us with their talks , speeches and concept art but look at what they really do in the end and there is your real evidence.
You think with all the data, surveys and discussions developers are not aware of what the players want. No they are chasing the buck and we are the ones left holding the bag. Come on they mock us with their talks , speeches and concept art but look at what they really do in the end and there is your real evidence.
Stop dreaming and looking for excuses.
Well interesting theory. Maybe you are right I dont know, its possible. If you are right and they do know what customers want but still dont care and are making this trash. I believe that would be really short sighted. They are killing the entire industry with apathy.
A solid MMO could be the backbone to these companies for years. Think about it, a solid MMO could easily pull 50mil - 100mil units sold. (new world sold 25+mil already) That would be 2.5 -7 billion right there. Then add 200+ per user per year. If they just retained 20% that would be $2-4 billion per year.
If they are purposely leaving that much money on the table to make a quick buck, that would be retarded. But then I already think they are pretty stupid. So maybe you are right who know. Its more likely both, complete incompetence mixed with short sighted greed.
The fact that New World sold so many copies is an indication to developers that they can with a reasonable investment sell their game. It does not mean that they are going to go that extra mile to make that game last.
They don't need to and in fact it may actually be a loss for them to continue the support if you look at what it takes to keep the game going. I think Amazon is struggling and making a loss.
Other developers are seeing that maintaining a game isn't necessarily a requirement to make money. I feel that current developers are not looking at these games like one did when they made Everquest, Ultima Onine, Asheron's Call, Anarchy Online or Dark Age of Camelot. They are now able to see that by selling a game initially and then going the monetization route they are able to deliver a lot less and still make money.
It's what happens when mobile monetization and the rise of mind boggling profits have made inroads into every game we have. Even the single player games are suffering. This is a global trend that was perfected in Asian games and is currently being wholly embraced here.
Indie developers would love to be in that position too but are limited by their budgets and have thus been trying to court the type of games we want made. Embers Adrift for all its faults did try and seeing how badly it is doing must give you an idea that other companies are not going to even bother. Pantheon is another one that will fail to deliver and may even die on the vine.
This is why I don't want to post on these topics because it makes me miserable and why I dislike the threads delete creates because my conclusions are quite hopeless. I don't think I'm wrong because money is the ultimate motivation and honestly we don't have any more developers in this genre that are willing to make what we hope to see. Hence I settle for games I can enjoy for the time being and eschew these topics.
The fact that New World sold so many copies is an indication to developers that they can with a reasonable investment sell their game. It does mean that they are going to go that extra mile to make that game last.
They don't need to and in fact it may actually be a loss for them to continue the support if you look at what it takes to keep the game going. I think Amazon is struggling and making a loss.
Other developers are seeing that maintaining a game isn't necessarily a requirement to make money. I feel that current developers are not looking at these games like one did when they made Everquest, Ultima Onine, Asheron's Call, Anarchy Online or Dark Age of Camelot. They are now able to see that by selling a game initially and then going the monetization route they are able to deliver a lot less and still make money.
It's what happens when mobile monetization and the rise of mind boggling profits have made inroads into every game we have. Even the single player games are suffering. This is a global trend that was perfected in Asian games and is currently being wholly embraced here.
Indie developers would love to be in that position too but are limited by their budgets and have thus been trying to court the type of games we want made. Embers Adrift for all its faults did try and seeing how badly it is doing must give you an idea that other companies are not going to even bother. Pantheon is another one that will fail to deliver and may even die on the vine.
This is why I don't want to post on these topics because it makes me miserable and why I dislike the threads delete creates because my conclusions are quite hopeless. I don't think I'm wrong because money is the ultimate motivation and honestly we don't have any more developers in this genre that are willing to make what we hope to see. Hence I settle for games I can enjoy for the time being and eschew these topics.
Bah Hambug!
Studios have been moving to 'weighted to front end' development for decades now, we are just noticing it more as it becomes further and further away from how games used to be made.
They know that few players finish their games, this has led them down the route of not bothering so much with the end of the game. In MMOs this means if players quit by the time they reach "end game", well most will anyway, it takes really great end game play to keep them. B2P is not effected by making a game front loaded and F2P is only somewhat effected. 'Subscription only' is effected but they aimed that out the window years back for the cash shop.
This is just another example of how our game's gameplay are being molded by revenue and metrics to our detriment. Clearly a superb endgame would be better, but that is the hardest part of making a solid MMO and with the handy revenue methods they have invented they don't need to make a great endgame.
Do you remember polish? That buzz word that as so important for launch? It got put in a concrete container and was sunk in the Atlantic, they don't need good quality assurance to sell games, they know that now.
"Part of that is also the migration from MMO to smaller "live service" titles."
MMOs are a form of live service that requires a pretty big ongoing investment. Compared to other live service titles where the bulk of the content is rotating seasonal events and adding new gatcha stuff.
That said, you can see how that trend already affects MMOs as well where it could. Some MMOs have still pushed expansion style content, but others leaned heavy into loot boxes, heavy reliance on repeatable event content, and battle-pass grind loops they could juggle out every "season".
It's a layer of recyclable meta that can be fully monetized instead of an expansion of core world/game content. Live service titles that don't rely on a full MMO model and can be developed for cheaper, with simpler content bound to extrinsic motivators rather than developing anything one may call intrinsic.
Gives them that "why am I playing this" sentiment, because much of the time the answer is "well x event is going and I'm grinding for y reward/progression" as opposed to engaging with the gameplay, narrative, etc.
and that was the point back then....The longer things take, the longer players will sub..... IT was a big reason why alot of people dont like guys like Smedley....While EQ was enjoyable, it was also designed to drain as much money from the players as possible... There was about a two year span where they made like 5 expansions.....Every time we turned around they wanted another $30 for an expansion, in addition to our monthly subs......SOEs greediness was a major turnoff for alot of us.
In 2022 the combine active players of 10 most played MMORPGs - excluding games like Lost Arc and PoE, which are multiplayer ARPGs - are 6.5 millions. This is less than WoW active players in 2012 - 9.6M. At the same period the number of online gamers more than doubled, excluding mobile games.
What do you mean by active players? Simultaneous? Because I’m pretty sure New World sold way more than 6.5million copies alone…
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In 2022 the combine active players of 10 most played MMORPGs - excluding games like Lost Arc and PoE, which are multiplayer ARPGs - are 6.5 millions. This is less than WoW active players in 2012 - 9.6M. At the same period the number of online gamers more than doubled, excluding mobile games.
Nah, the 9.6 Million probably includes enourmous amounts of chinese and korean players.
China and korea probably have more mmorpg players than the rest of world combine and non of them play western mmorpg.
Everyone knows what the issues are but that does not mean any AAA developers is interested in making the dream game we seem to be pining for. I don't see anything worth rooting for, do you?
First I dont believe developers have identified the problem.
The first step to solving a problem is to admit there is a problem. We are still waiting for the industry to get there head around that.
Entertainment executives are notoriously moronic. Look at movies, LOTR Peter Jackson got denied by multiple studios that told him him his concept would fail and nobody would fund it. Finally to get funding he had to shoot all 3 movies at the same time on 1 movies budget. The movies were wildly successful and yet what other production companies came out with similar movies using a different IP in the past 20 years?
When James Cameron made Avatar 1, the 20th century fox executives told him his 3 hour movie wouldnt sell, and demanded he change it. He told them to get the blank out of his office. Surprise surprise top selling movie all time.
You think these entertainment exectives from gaming are any different? These studios are playing darts in the dark from 100 yards away. They are completely clueless what drives customers retention.
I think developers have identified plenty of problems and come up with solutions to what they have identified. I don't think the identification of problems is the problem. I think the solutions to the problems are. Also, I don't think players are always right on what the solution should be either. Think about all of the discussions on various identified problems. There isn't a consensus solution. 30 people comment with 30 different solutions.
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In other genres you have subsequent versions that replace the previous version. Just like your madden example.
Elder Scrolls 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, etc...
Better mmo's should be replaceing older mmo's that are not as good or up to date. This is not happening because MMO's are actually getting worse than the previous version. Why should people leave something that is better than what is coming out.
The answer is make better MMO's than the previous version? They will sunset on their own once the player counts goes so low that 1 server is no longer profitable.
This happen in other genres. Ark devs though Atlas was the future, they even came out and said they would no longer develop Ark. Atlas bombed, they went back developing Ark. IF Ark 2 is better than Ark, Ark will lose its customer base to Ark2.
This should be the cycle, its not hard to figure out.
If developers don't want to invest in new MMORPGs you won't be seeing anything new. We will be stuck with what we have and mobile MMORPGs. Making all these statements about how no good MMORPG is coming out isn't going to magically produce something.
Everyone knows what the issues are but that does not mean any AAA developers is interested in making the dream game we seem to be pining for. I don't see anything worth rooting for, do you?
But online games are usually software as service with constant update in hope of people playing forever.
And it is actually very hard to surpase old mmorpg because it is being developed for a very long time. World of Warcraft is being developed for 25 years with 25 years of content.
The most popular RTS is starcraft 2 being made in 2010 and most popular MOBA is League of Legends made in 2009. And I wouldn't be surprised if somone told me starcraft 1 is more popular and it is made in 1998.
And the money being pulled in to making and updating games like wow or FFIV or GW2 etc etc is enormous. You simply can't beat them unless you pull in as money as them. That is probably the biggest reason.
You can argue New World is a collosus failure. But it is one of the most played mmorpg ever. At least in terms of western made mmorpg. I think you are arguing 30k concurrent players is low, but that is similar to Eve numbers. Monthly player is much larger. And the reason New World didn't flop because it throw in huge amount of resources. I can't think of many indie studio actually make successful mmorpg besides EvE which started small.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
First I dont believe developers have identified the problem.
The first step to solving a problem is to admit there is a problem. We are still waiting for the industry to get there head around that.
Entertainment executives are notoriously moronic. Look at movies, LOTR Peter Jackson got denied by multiple studios that told him him his concept would fail and nobody would fund it. Finally to get funding he had to shoot all 3 movies at the same time on 1 movies budget. The movies were wildly successful and yet what other production companies came out with similar movies using a different IP in the past 20 years?
When James Cameron made Avatar 1, the 20th century fox executives told him his 3 hour movie wouldnt sell, and demanded he change it. He told them to get the blank out of his office. Surprise surprise top selling movie all time.
You think these entertainment exectives from gaming are any different? These studios are playing darts in the dark from 100 yards away. They are completely clueless what drives customers retention.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
I dont understand this concept. There are so many gamers today. A decent game will get 5 mil units sold without even batting an eyelash. Anything that appeals to customers sells millions of units. Even trash games that lose 99.9% of their players within a couple of months, sell millions of units. If a game cant sell millions of units in todays world, its probably just a really really trash game. Prove me wrong, show me an amazing game released in 2022+ that doesnt sell at least 5mil+ in a year.
When you say 150k players only, you are basically asking for a super trashy game. You might end up with 150k after 99% of the players leave.
Just look at Elden Ring, very niche, stuck to its core players, hard playstyle, 17.5 mil sales this year.
Games dont have to appeal to the everybody gets a trophy crowd just to sell 20mil units. Al you need is a decent game.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
I dont see the problem the same as you. I dont agree retention has always been a problem. Too much retention early on sort of caused the problem we see now. Early on almost all MMO's were growing. This put devs into a difficult situation, do they release a 2nd version and lose some of the original playerbase or just focus on the game we have.
UO2 I am sure was canned multiple time because they didnt want to lose their existing playerbase.
WoW2 probably the same thing.
If players would have bought the game, played it for a year then quit happy (no expansions), they would have just made the expansion into another game version. This is what the industry needed so they could leave the mistakes behind instead of trying to integrate the mistake into the existing game.
https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/979569-Most-MMO-subs-and-users-in-chart
Notice the charts on so many failed games (warhammer, vanguard, star trek online, tabula rasa). Watch how they spike then immediately die. This is what is happening to MMO's now. This is what the chart looks like for garbage.
During the same period these games were dieing, other games were increasing subs just fine. Most of the MMO's that were increasign subs back then are still around now.
So when you see charts like that you know quality is the problem and not the lack of customers. They cant retain their customers. Good games either slowly build their customers or at least level out fairly quickly.
I used to have fridges that lasted me 20 years now they last ten years.
Developers are not interested in long term support. They'd rather make smaller cheaper games that will garner them huge sales with no need to support the game beyond 18 months. It's a win for them. Initially players buy into the game and buy the monetization all the time thinking the game is going to be supported for a long time having drawn their circle of friends into it and then only to find the population dwindling and the game going on life support while the company goes on to make another game perhaps even in another genre.
They cut the staff and have smaller teams that are simply unequipped to constantly keep up with churn and expansions and finally simply place the game on life support if we're lucky but most likely just shut it down. Previously games stayed up but now they shut down far easier and in shorter and shorter life spans. Coincidence or a pattern of doing business?
Better still developers like Mark Jacobs don't even need to deliver a working product and can still draw investment and make money. Do I even have to point to Chris Roberts for you to see.
Amazon is trying hard because they don't want to fail but all those developers we put our faith in like Richard Garriot, Mark Jacobs or Raph Koster have delivered crap. They're not even trying. They are milking their past accolades and we are still hoping. How much more foolishness do we have in us before you realise that it is not going to happen.
You think with all the data, surveys and discussions developers are not aware of what the players want. No they are chasing the buck and we are the ones left holding the bag. Come on they mock us with their talks , speeches and concept art but look at what they really do in the end and there is your real evidence.
Stop dreaming and looking for excuses.
Well interesting theory. Maybe you are right I dont know, its possible. If you are right and they do know what customers want but still dont care and are making this trash. I believe that would be really short sighted. They are killing the entire industry with apathy.
A solid MMO could be the backbone to these companies for years. Think about it, a solid MMO could easily pull 50mil - 100mil units sold. (new world sold 25+mil already)
That would be 2.5 -7 billion right there. Then add 200+ per user per year. If they just retained 20% that would be $2-4 billion per year.
If they are purposely leaving that much money on the table to make a quick buck, that would be retarded. But then I already think they are pretty stupid. So maybe you are right who know. Its more likely both, complete incompetence mixed with short sighted greed.
They don't need to and in fact it may actually be a loss for them to continue the support if you look at what it takes to keep the game going. I think Amazon is struggling and making a loss.
Other developers are seeing that maintaining a game isn't necessarily a requirement to make money. I feel that current developers are not looking at these games like one did when they made Everquest, Ultima Onine, Asheron's Call, Anarchy Online or Dark Age of Camelot. They are now able to see that by selling a game initially and then going the monetization route they are able to deliver a lot less and still make money.
It's what happens when mobile monetization and the rise of mind boggling profits have made inroads into every game we have. Even the single player games are suffering. This is a global trend that was perfected in Asian games and is currently being wholly embraced here.
Indie developers would love to be in that position too but are limited by their budgets and have thus been trying to court the type of games we want made. Embers Adrift for all its faults did try and seeing how badly it is doing must give you an idea that other companies are not going to even bother. Pantheon is another one that will fail to deliver and may even die on the vine.
This is why I don't want to post on these topics because it makes me miserable and why I dislike the threads delete creates because my conclusions are quite hopeless. I don't think I'm wrong because money is the ultimate motivation and honestly we don't have any more developers in this genre that are willing to make what we hope to see. Hence I settle for games I can enjoy for the time being and eschew these topics.
Bah Hambug!
They know that few players finish their games, this has led them down the route of not bothering so much with the end of the game. In MMOs this means if players quit by the time they reach "end game", well most will anyway, it takes really great end game play to keep them. B2P is not effected by making a game front loaded and F2P is only somewhat effected. 'Subscription only' is effected but they aimed that out the window years back for the cash shop.
This is just another example of how our game's gameplay are being molded by revenue and metrics to our detriment. Clearly a superb endgame would be better, but that is the hardest part of making a solid MMO and with the handy revenue methods they have invented they don't need to make a great endgame.
Do you remember polish? That buzz word that as so important for launch? It got put in a concrete container and was sunk in the Atlantic, they don't need good quality assurance to sell games, they know that now.
"Part of that is also the migration from MMO to smaller "live service" titles."
MMOs are a form of live service that requires a pretty big ongoing investment. Compared to other live service titles where the bulk of the content is rotating seasonal events and adding new gatcha stuff.
That said, you can see how that trend already affects MMOs as well where it could. Some MMOs have still pushed expansion style content, but others leaned heavy into loot boxes, heavy reliance on repeatable event content, and battle-pass grind loops they could juggle out every "season".
It's a layer of recyclable meta that can be fully monetized instead of an expansion of core world/game content. Live service titles that don't rely on a full MMO model and can be developed for cheaper, with simpler content bound to extrinsic motivators rather than developing anything one may call intrinsic.
Gives them that "why am I playing this" sentiment, because much of the time the answer is "well x event is going and I'm grinding for y reward/progression" as opposed to engaging with the gameplay, narrative, etc.
https://biturl.top/rU7bY3
Beyond the shadows there's always light
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Nah, the 9.6 Million probably includes enourmous amounts of chinese and korean players.
China and korea probably have more mmorpg players than the rest of world combine and non of them play western mmorpg.