If your game is around a decade in development should you really be highlighting concept art?

Nilden

I don't  want to hate on concept art and think some of it is actually fantastic. It just shouldn't be what you are highlighting when around a decade into development.

I'm looking at you Pantheon, Camelot Unchained and all the rest.

This doesn't create excitement or build interest it makes me question your competence. This is especially true when all I see is concept art and nothing following it that actually got put into the game. It makes me question WTF you are even doing.

Now I know EverQuest had some serious crunch culture going on to make it and it took around 2 years.

https://www.pcgamer.com/breaking-the-internet-the-story-of-everquest-the-mmo-that-changed-everything/

Then we have Dark Age of Camelot -
Total development costs excluding equipment leases was about US$2.5 million and took 18 months with a team of 25 full-time developers. 3DS Max and Character Studio were used to create all models and animations within the game.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Age_of_Camelot#:~:text=Total development costs excluding equipment,and animations within the game.

Then you have WoW-
World of Warcraft was first announced by Blizzard at the ECTS trade show in September 2001. Released in 2004, development of the game took roughly 4–5 years, including extensive testing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_of_Warcraft#:~:text=World of Warcraft was first,5 years, including extensive testing.

So when I see these as historical references I really start to wonder was the crunch that bad? How do you not have an actual game anywhere near a release state? Is it really worth highlighting concept art or maybe you should just put that in a gallery on the website and people can check it out if they want to. You should probably be showing something with much more substance that involves actual game play.

In fact I would make the case that showcasing concept art is just hurting your game when you're around ten years into development you really should have more to show. 

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

Kyleran

While I'm no game developer I have stayed in a Holiday Inn Express.

I think one big issue with the protracted development timelines of modern indie MMORPGs is they are having to upgrade to newer technologies multiple times which keeps pushing final delivery ever outward.

Think how much computer tech has changed in the past 10 years, probably hundreds of new tools and processs to deliver software and hardware.

With their short development windows both EQ1 & DAOC could pretty much be delivered with a single set of technology from start to finish, with little upgrades required.

They also could start development with the best hardware money could buy and be pretty much assured by time it released their customers base could afford to and would be willing to upgrade to the same level.

That all changed with WOW which ran on PC equivalents of a smart frig which was one thing which tripped up Vanguard as Brad wasn't counting on gamers suddenly not being willing to upgrade their rigs to play his new game.

mekhere

Remali said:

They have nothing to show but they still want your pledge money

They took that pledge money and built crypto mining farms. They are busy making new crypto coins, nfts and crypto games. They do not care about mmo's or consoles anymore. There so distracted by greed, there shooting themselves in the foot here so to speak. All they wanna do is take your money and buy a gpu or the cheapest stock so they can build new gaming studio's only our grandkids get to enjoy.

Nilden

Kyleran said:

While I'm no game developer I have stayed in a Holiday Inn Express.

I think one big issue with the protracted development timelines of modern indie MMORPGs is they are having to upgrade to newer technologies multiple times which keeps pushing final delivery ever outward.

Think how much computer tech has changed in the past 10 years, probably hundreds of new tools and processs to deliver software and hardware.

With their short development windows both EQ1 & DAOC could pretty much be delivered with a single set of technology from start to finish, with little upgrades required.

They also could start development with the best hardware money could buy and be pretty much assured by time it released their customers base could afford to and would be willing to upgrade to the same level.

That all changed with WOW which ran on PC equivalents of a smart frig which was one thing which tripped up Vanguard as Brad wasn't counting on gamers suddenly not being willing to upgrade their rigs to play his new game.

I would argue on that front everything is better for the developers now. From software to hardware to knowledge. There was no Unity, asset packs, resources, etc etc back then. They were using pentiums and dial-up modems. 

What developers have available to them today vs what they were using to make MMORPGs back then is night and day. They were quite literally doing more with less and in less time.



Versus anything today...



https://www.techradar.com/best/best-workstations

Even in 2013 ten years ago they still would have been blowing away anything from the early 2000's.

AlBQuirky

Well, Star Citizen is making it a "game of games" to keep the money flowing in. It seemed to work well for them

You do have great points, though. Technology is "supposed" to make life easier, yet MMOs seem to be "harder to create?" <insert record scratch here>

Many development engines seem to be quite modular. Plug one in and go. Yes, some tweaking here and there for assets and gameplay specifics, but easier.

Oh! Then we have to plan on "How do we monetize it all?" lol

Not only has technology changed, but life and society has changed since the turn of the millennium, for good and/or bad.

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

Scot

Thing is Nilden you can't compare a CF with a smaller team to a AAA by a studio, unless you were talking about SC and even there it is their first game. No track record means you are pathfinding to a good game, good luck with that.

But I agree with you, still highlighting concept art is questionable.

Kyleran

All done to maintain the illusion of progress when in fact little is being made in areas which can be easily shown to the public. 

Slight of hand and misdirection are trademarks of indie MMORPG development, along with significant incompetence, mismanagement and of course, some flat out lying.

Mendel

Scot said:

Thing is Nilden you can't compare a CF with a smaller team to a AAA by a studio, unless you were talking about SC and even there it is their first game. No track record means you are pathfinding to a good game, good luck with that.

But I agree with you, still highlighting concept art is questionable.

The industry has been overtaken by small groups promising to deliver what large AAA studios did.  They *might* be able to, but it is going to take substantially longer and cost more.  The small groups have turned to crowdfunding to eschew the more traditional financing.  Crowdfunding is counted as 'revenue' these days, which has even lured in the larger studios.  Income without deliverables, a panacea for developers!

The larger studios that produced EQ/AC/DAoC and even WoW had the advantage of competent management.  Small studios that are attempting to make (or replicate) MMORPGs these days don't seem to have the same level of management.  The older studios also didn't have the distraction of crowdfunding.  Who knows how many man-hours companies are pouring into crowdfunding?  I don't, but it certainly seems high to me.  That's effort that could (should) have been applied to actual development. 

From the outside, development companies appear to be hiring community managers and investing into web sites far sooner than they need to.  The crowdfunding efforts take man-hours to pursue, so the priority is for developing these assets rather than hiring artists, animators, network coders, database experts and the like to actually make the game.

Did anyone even hear about EQ before there was a public beta to get a hands-on view of the game?  The silent approach worked well then; modern companies are too busy announcing and publicizing their game that they might finish in the future (sometimes the very far distant future).  Did anybody heard of Hershey Bars before they were in production?  No.  The customer capture function occurred after the product was invented.  This is one 'improvement' that modern businesses could stand to re-think.

I also agree; concept art isn't a finished product.

Slapshot1188

Anyone remember THIS beauty?

lahnmir

Highlighting concept art? How about selling concept art as if it was an actual ingame item already with a nice big pinky swear? You bloody amateurs have nothing on Star Citizen.

/Cheers,
Lahnmir

kitarad

Some of them make good desktop backgrounds.

olepi

In my field we called that "marketecture". There is no real product yet, but marketing has some cool slides they can show you of what they think it will be.

AlBQuirky

Mendel said:

Did anyone even hear about EQ before there was a public beta to get a hands-on view of the game?  The silent approach worked well then; modern companies are too busy announcing and publicizing their game that they might finish in the future (sometimes the very far distant future).  Did anybody heard of Hershey Bars before they were in production?  No.  The customer capture function occurred after the product was invented.  This is one 'improvement' that modern businesses could stand to re-think.

I think this is another "sign of the times." Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram seem to have companies searching for "traffic and hype" (likes and upvotes) rather than actual development

Mendel

AlBQuirky said:

Mendel said:

Did anyone even hear about EQ before there was a public beta to get a hands-on view of the game?  The silent approach worked well then; modern companies are too busy announcing and publicizing their game that they might finish in the future (sometimes the very far distant future).  Did anybody heard of Hershey Bars before they were in production?  No.  The customer capture function occurred after the product was invented.  This is one 'improvement' that modern businesses could stand to re-think.

I think this is another "sign of the times." Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram seem to have companies searching for "traffic and hype" (likes and upvotes) rather than actual development

I can't be certain, but it seems more like companies are marketing their product from its inception, then people reinforce the hype, participating in the promotion of the idea.  No game, just marketing.

Brainy

I think its more a change in concept of advertising.

Hype the product early, get all these people hyped, that way if your product is subpar you already made your money, just like New World did.

Same thing is happening to many movies today.  In the old days movies used to make 7-20 times more money after the opening weeked, so alot of their money was based on word of mouth.  However now days movies are just getting 3 times the money of opening weekend.  This means like 90% of the money the movie will make is recieved within the first few weeks or even opening weekend before any word of mouth can destroy the film.  Once negative word of mouth happens it drops but all the money already came in.

If you look at the charts of old MMO's they all slowly increased over time, building their brand with positive word of mouth.  Ususally the failed hyped games had high numbers early then a fast dropoff as negative world of mouth informed became widespread.

Scot

Mendel said:

AlBQuirky said:

Mendel said:

Did anyone even hear about EQ before there was a public beta to get a hands-on view of the game?  The silent approach worked well then; modern companies are too busy announcing and publicizing their game that they might finish in the future (sometimes the very far distant future).  Did anybody heard of Hershey Bars before they were in production?  No.  The customer capture function occurred after the product was invented.  This is one 'improvement' that modern businesses could stand to re-think.

I think this is another "sign of the times." Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram seem to have companies searching for "traffic and hype" (likes and upvotes) rather than actual development

I can't be certain, but it seems more like companies are marketing their product from its inception, then people reinforce the hype, participating in the promotion of the idea.  No game, just marketing.

This is happening throughout the entertainment industry, they have moved on from in game metrics to incorporating social media metrics.

delete5230

   

Remember Pantheon made a YouTube with two rubber monster figurines sitting on a picnic table. 

And people loved it !!!!....... I'm like what is wrong with you people !!   

cheyane

What's with the useless metrics like  how many mobs were killed, how much damage was dealt or how many times players died and so on and so forth. It's all tailored to the social media hype and I'm not entirely sure what purpose it serves.

Well engaging streamers though has had a definite impact on a game and it can boost the initial population. Over time how people view games has changed and mobile games have certain ways to advertise their games and this is slowly seeping into other platforms with questionable success.

Disregarding all that, it is within our own power to look at things and decide for ourselves but the hype can have one important element which is in the sea of games the game that is hyped will stand out and more likely than not we will take a gander at the game because there might be a good game there.

AlBQuirky

delete5230 said:

   

Remember Pantheon made a YouTube with two rubber monster figurines sitting on a picnic table. 

And people loved it !!!!....... I'm like what is wrong with you people !!   

Huh?

Scot

cheyane said:

What's with the useless metrics like  how many mobs were killed, how much damage was dealt or how many times players died and so on and so forth. It's all tailored to the social media hype and I'm not entirely sure what purpose it serves.

Well engaging streamers though has had a definite impact on a game and it can boost the initial population. Over time how people view games has changed and mobile games have certain ways to advertise their games and this is slowly seeping into other platforms with questionable success.

Disregarding all that, it is within our own power to look at things and decide for ourselves but the hype can have one important element which is in the sea of games the game that is hyped will stand out and more likely than not we will take a gander at the game because there might be a good game there.

Metrics already heavily influence what sort of games are made and what the gameplay is in them. It is a soulless vision of gaming that has taken over from the designers vision of what a great game could look like. Indie is the only real hold out against metrics and I doubt they do not give a nod to it.

Dattelis

Sucken cost fallacy. People running these things can do whatever they want as long as people pledging suffer from it.

Nanfoodle

When you invest in an idea thats not backed with a solid business plan, thats what we get. As gamers we learn, developers that made great games in the past, may have no clue how to run a business. Pantheon is a game that falls under that category. VR has used our funding to learn how to run a business. 2 or 3 iteration on Pantheon, being rebuilt again from the ground up. Im not sure who is to blame? We as gamers are part of this as well. We gave them money without asking, who is the CEO and the CFO.  

delete5230

AlBQuirky said:

delete5230 said:

   

Remember Pantheon made a YouTube with two rubber monster figurines sitting on a picnic table. 

And people loved it !!!!....... I'm like what is wrong with you people !!   

Huh?

Guess you didn't follow every thing Pantheon.

Sovrath

delete5230 said:

AlBQuirky said:

delete5230 said:

   

Remember Pantheon made a YouTube with two rubber monster figurines sitting on a picnic table. 

And people loved it !!!!....... I'm like what is wrong with you people !!   

Huh?

Guess you didn't follow every thing Pantheon.

feel free to post a link.