Streamers, a major problem in big Mmorpgs

Ralphie2449

Anyone who has actually spend time in official game forums or social media will eventually notice how fast certain "opinions" spread like wildfire, often about a specific part of the game/system being bad or problematic and suddenly everyone and their mother acts as if that is the main problem of the game and if fixed the game would be ten times better, it wont. You keep seeing the same points and opinion everywhere, and of course if you share said belief you want to believe it is correct, and purely grassroots based.

More often than not these start by some streamer/youtuber making a video about said "issue" or discussing a post about said issue, that video gains a lot of traction and now other streamers/youtubers are jumping on the discussion amplifying their opinions and spreading it to a wider audience. Now all those streamers usually have a very similar opinion on the issue or they say it in such a way that it seems to mostly support popular sentiment.

I would initially not consider this to be a problem but I am seeing more and more devs starting to capitulate or forced to pander to such big community social outrages even when they should know better, they should know that without certain systems people will get bored and leave, or that the root of the problem is not on the system everyone screams about, or when they know that if they listen to the outrage, they will make the game worse often for the more casual type players who dont follow streamers/youtubers and arent gonna bother making a loud "I QUIT FOREVER!!1!!" post.

So they go on to "listening to the community" and the game becomes more stale and population drops fast, they might have pleased the loud people who came parroting the opinions of their streamer, but the game was worse off at the end so they either revert changes or slowly reintroduce systems that were removed.

Seems to be that streamers whenever like it or not in big mmorpgs do have some control over its design and direction when they can create a mob that will hound the devs and scream about that one specific thing they dislike, without thinking of how that affects players who arent them.

How long before a dev capitulates to that group when the social outrage keeps getting worse?

Theocritus

What is scarier is how easily the masses are swayed by social media these days. The sheep are without a shepherd and apparently the influencers and streamers are the shepherds.

Kyleran

Be interested to see specific examples of game devs being significantly influenced by larger streamers vs the greater community at large.

Also be good to show how said games were made inherently worse especially for casual players.

Seems to me games only go one direction, ever more easier and more casual post launch.

Asm0deus

Theocritus said:

What is scarier is how easily the masses are swayed by social media these days. The sheep are without a shepherd and apparently the influencers and streamers are the shepherds.

Indeed, I mean how could it be the sheeps fault when clearly it's their shepherds steering them wrong!

Nilden

I'll just wear my bias on my sleeve here.

Not a big fan of streamers at all.

I'd rather play the game myself. Usually just watch some youtube videos to check out some gameplay.

As far as generalizing streamers horribly they are either paid shills or using the people watching them to coast through on easy mode or just cry babies. Either way they are pretty much just there to make money.

I'd say the likely hood of them being toxic morons is much higher than providing any meaningful feedback or changes to help the game.

You're probably right and in most cases the best thing devs could do is completely ignore them. 

I watched some streamers playing Diablo Immoral and threw up a little in my mouth when I saw their money spent tickers and just rolled my eyes. This is where we are now. 

Ralphie2449

Kyleran said:

Be interested to see specific examples of game devs being significantly influenced by larger streamers vs the greater community at large.

Also be good to show how said games were made inherently worse especially for casual players.

Seems to me games only go one direction, ever more easier and more casual post launch.

Let me think of a few recent examples:

Swtor - Known for its huge casual playerbase and balanced loot alt friendly system decides to go "raid or die" by putting best gear behind raids that few people even touched, results being the game being even more dead than before considering majority of players already treated it as a solo game, yet devs decided to try force raid upon everywhere.

That one is more of a developer choice though there were always raiders moaning that raids aint rewarding enough, but nowhere enough to be a popular sentiment.

WoW - Everyone and their mom screaming about le "borrowed power" systems to the point the devs did capitulate, now there's even less for a casual player to do on top onto the fact that popular raidlogging streamers kept screaming about "being forced" to do dirty casual content or as YOU would say "Play the game".
So all casual/solo content is completely unrewarding. Funny is the fact that the trash gear you can grind through casual content take more time than grinding gold to buy a boost that gives you top tier mythic gear..
DF and last patch of SL is a big failure of an xpac exactly because they listened to the loud complaints of raidloggers and tryhards and popular "reeeeee borrowed power bad" types and is just an empty boring xpac with far less population than before and even admitted terrible sales.

Destiny 2 - Everyone and their mom screaming about how easy the game was because streamers kept talking about that, Bungie does an 180, nerfs basic defense stat, nerfs ability regeneration, buffs health of enemies and introduces gear limits so encounters are never overleveled as well as gutting old builds via the new mod system and celebrates "bringing challenge back to destiny 2"
Now even before that there were a lot of people that had trouble with the final mission of the previous season, it wasnt rly hard but anyone who has seen how bad some players are know that comments about people having trouble with that were legit, the new difficulty changes are not welcome at all by a big number of casuals, you cant even imagine what happens on the silent casual side. I am quite certain content that was doable before like legend solo missions are now impossible for many of those people who no matter how much you wish, they wont "git gud", they will leave and no matter how much you might celebrate that, it is what kills a game.

Something that has been consistently proven over the years is the fact that if you put too big of an obstacle in front of a casual, they will simply leave and play something else, no ragequit posts or videos, just silently leave, something FF14 Yoshi understands well while others devs either ignore or are forced to ignore to capitulate to the big problem of the season streamers created.

Nilden

Remember this gem? 18 million followers multi millionaire and the guy is still cringe. 



Go Ninja, go Ninja, Go!

LOL

When you realize your only internet famous to a bunch of 12 year olds.

Ah streamers.

Dattelis

One thing for sure that is scary (for me at least) is the 'cult-like behavior' these people adopt when their 'leader' decides to play a specific mmorpg. Prime example would be when Asmongold first played WoW Classic and everyone was funneling him their drops and money, to 'make him look good' I guess. Not to mention how quickly specific servers started to die off almost immediately when some streamers decided to quit and transfers weren't available by then.

A more personal problem I have with streamers and mmorpgs is that it feels more rare to become 'someone' through just playing whatever game. Its almost like you need a following before you decide to play something. Even if you do manage to 'become someone,' its almost expected that you become a streamer right after. Someone was suggesting after the whole 'world first ultimate omega' kill in FF14 that EVERYONE participating should be streamers because the supposed team to claim it cheated to do so (and I think whoever keeps track of those world firsts for 14 will only recognize streamers going forward). Its almost as bad as just play to earn imo. I just play mmorpgs for fun, not to be a spectacle or to make money.

Scot

Ralphie2449 said:

Kyleran said:

Be interested to see specific examples of game devs being significantly influenced by larger streamers vs the greater community at large.

Also be good to show how said games were made inherently worse especially for casual players.

Seems to me games only go one direction, ever more easier and more casual post launch.

...Something that has been consistently proven over the years is the fact that if you put too big of an obstacle in front of a casual, they will simply leave and play something else, no ragequit posts or videos, just silently leave, something FF14 Yoshi understands well while others devs either ignore or are forced to ignore to capitulate to the big problem of the season streamers created.

I think you are conflating your own issues with MMOs with the baneful influence of streamers, but I agree they are detrimental to gaming.

If I remember rightly when New World (?) launched they had separate servers for streamers, which shows how problematic they are to regular play. Clearly designers realise there are issues but marketing has the final say.

kitarad

Diablo Immoral's multi tiered system to fleece players would not have been discovered but for some of these streamers and it was quite a convoluted system that most players would never have figured out. I am grateful for these youtubers spending their time and their patrons' money on that discovery.

Ralphie2449

Scot said:

I think you are conflating your own issues with MMOs with the baneful influence of streamers

Both can be true at times, streamers more often than not are not casual players nor in the side of casual players in many design subjects, ironic almost considering how they get easy access and carries to any form of content through their followers xD

Plus the fact that they are often too scared to voice unpopular opinions because their followers will get mad and leave, so even if they have one, they say it in such a sugarcoated way to avoid upsetting their fans aka some people whose self worth depends on video game achievements.

Dibdabs

Nilden said:

I'll just wear my bias on my sleeve here.

Not a big fan of streamers at all.

I'd rather play the game myself. Usually just watch some youtube videos to check out some gameplay.

As far as generalizing streamers horribly they are either paid shills or using the people watching them to coast through on easy mode or just cry babies. Either way they are pretty much just there to make money.

I'd say the likely hood of them being toxic morons is much higher than providing any meaningful feedback or changes to help the game.

You're probably right and in most cases the best thing devs could do is completely ignore them. 

I watched some streamers playing Diablo Immoral and threw up a little in my mouth when I saw their money spent tickers and just rolled my eyes. This is where we are now. 

I'm the same as you - I watch bits of gameplay here and there and otherwise ignore streamers entirely.  I couldn't even name one if I tried.  They're just clones of each other, all the way down to their inane "Yo guys and gals, wassup!  Don't forget to mash that like button..." patter.  As you say, a large number of them will be paid shills anyway.

Kyleran

Ralphie2449 said:

Kyleran said:

Be interested to see specific examples of game devs being significantly influenced by larger streamers vs the greater community at large.

Also be good to show how said games were made inherently worse especially for casual players.

Seems to me games only go one direction, ever more easier and more casual post launch.

Let me think of a few recent examples:

Swtor - Known for its huge casual playerbase and balanced loot alt friendly system decides to go "raid or die" by putting best gear behind raids that few people even touched, results being the game being even more dead than before considering majority of players already treated it as a solo game, yet devs decided to try force raid upon everywhere.

That one is more of a developer choice though there were always raiders moaning that raids aint rewarding enough, but nowhere enough to be a popular sentiment.

WoW - Everyone and their mom screaming about le "borrowed power" systems to the point the devs did capitulate, now there's even less for a casual player to do on top onto the fact that popular raidlogging streamers kept screaming about "being forced" to do dirty casual content or as YOU would say "Play the game".
So all casual/solo content is completely unrewarding. Funny is the fact that the trash gear you can grind through casual content take more time than grinding gold to buy a boost that gives you top tier mythic gear..
DF and last patch of SL is a big failure of an xpac exactly because they listened to the loud complaints of raidloggers and tryhards and popular "reeeeee borrowed power bad" types and is just an empty boring xpac with far less population than before and even admitted terrible sales.

Destiny 2 - Everyone and their mom screaming about how easy the game was because streamers kept talking about that, Bungie does an 180, nerfs basic defense stat, nerfs ability regeneration, buffs health of enemies and introduces gear limits so encounters are never overleveled as well as gutting old builds via the new mod system and celebrates "bringing challenge back to destiny 2"
Now even before that there were a lot of people that had trouble with the final mission of the previous season, it wasnt rly hard but anyone who has seen how bad some players are know that comments about people having trouble with that were legit, the new difficulty changes are not welcome at all by a big number of casuals, you cant even imagine what happens on the silent casual side. I am quite certain content that was doable before like legend solo missions are now impossible for many of those people who no matter how much you wish, they wont "git gud", they will leave and no matter how much you might celebrate that, it is what kills a game.

Something that has been consistently proven over the years is the fact that if you put too big of an obstacle in front of a casual, they will simply leave and play something else, no ragequit posts or videos, just silently leave, something FF14 Yoshi understands well while others devs either ignore or are forced to ignore to capitulate to the big problem of the season streamers created.

Thanks for the examples, I don't follow games I'm not playing very closely, I mean who knew SWOTOR still was a thing, I set it side many years ago and never have tried Destiny 2.

Still not sure these changes to increase difficulty or lock better rewards behind raid context can be attributed to streamer influence, I know at least for WOW that's pretty much been their M.O. since day 1 as far as I'm aware.

I personally don't have an issue with better gear being rewards for completing higher level content, even though I agree once I reach a point where my progression has come to an end I'll leave the game before capitulating to running content I don't enjoy.

Lost Ark is a recent example where I was able to play my way (mostly solo) until I got my GS to a certain level only to find out I could go no further unless I was willing to complete hard mode dungeons content.

As you said..out the door I went...

Mendel

To me, the problem is that development companies appear to value the streamer far more than necessary.  In some, if not most cases, the companies attempt to use the efforts of the streamers in lieu of actual advertising.  Why not?  The streamers provide hype at a minimal or even no cost to the developer, how could a company complain about essentially free advertising?

Quizzical

So you're saying that the influenzas have become a pandemic?  Yeah, that happens sometimes.

Dattelis

Mendel said:

To me, the problem is that development companies appear to value the streamer far more than necessary.  In some, if not most cases, the companies attempt to use the efforts of the streamers in lieu of actual advertising.  Why not?  The streamers provide hype at a minimal or even no cost to the developer, how could a company complain about essentially free advertising?

The main reason developers value streamers/content creators more is because its cheaper to pay for advertisement that way. Its far easier to pay 1 person (or a small team of people) to do something they were going to do anyway vs having to go through a bunch of processes through actual companies/agencies and still have accountability to deal with at the end of the day. Some of them dont even get paid in actual money and are just flown out or sent products, so that's kind of why most of these beta/alphas are treated as PR views.

Scot

Quizzical said:

So you're saying that the influenzas have become a pandemic?  Yeah, that happens sometimes.

The other day I was watching a quiz where one of the contestants was described as a "content creator". I felt a bit queasy, do you think I need to see a doctor?

The_Korrigan

When I saw the author of the thread, I asked myself how this could turn into another of his anti-raider rants. His second post in the thread didn't disappoint.

I don't like most streamers, because I consider them useless arrogant pricks. But then, nobody forces me to watch any of their content. But I don't think they influence games to the point of turning them from casual friendly into hardcore raiding nightmares, in all the time I've been playing MMORPGs I've never seen that happen. For instance, the OP lists WoW as a victim of streamers... but WoW has always rewarded raiders the most, for completing what is arguably the hardest content of the game, since it's release in 2004 18 years ago.

I think the OP just found a scapegoat to blame for his problem with MMORPGs, which was already repeated in many of his threads: that some content is for people with a different play style than his, for people who like to join forces to tackle the hardest content, and that those people get adequately rewarded for their superior efforts.

Kyleran

/End thread, really.

Scot

Kyleran said:

/End thread, really.

Thanks for giving him that awesome, he expanded on what I posited and I fully agreed, but I couldn't bring myself to do that.

Ralphie2449

Well looks like I was right as usual



At 24m20seconds the guy literally admits that from their perspective the worst thing that was happening was streamers screaming about how bad the game was instead of simply leaving and playing something else.
With that in mind and what they say next it becomes quite clear that their no.1 priority became to placate to streamers so they produce positive videos.

Whenever that system is factual or not is not relevant, the developers believe placating to streamers is important so they dont start screaming about how much they hate the game.

Kyleran

Sending black ops squads is also an option I suppose.

I didn't watch, but wait, did you just use a streamer to prove your point?

Lame

Uwakionna

Honestly that video is more interesting to me for what they mention at ~15 minutes in. That dude is speaking directly to the notion of so many other companies and the live service ideology of the product not having to be a solid representation of itself at launch, and relying on scrambling one update after the next.

Problem being even if one takes his argument to have merit, this requires the game to have enough community buy-in and financial momentum to support that roadmap.

Wanna launch a janky game and hope to fix it later into being that ideal version? Why don't we look at how that worked out for Anthem or the countless other live service  titles that have blipped in and out of existence...

As for the subject at 24, that seems to actually be commenting on social media more broadly. He mentioned community broadly, which speaks as well to things like Reddit and Forum.

The thing about responding to their influencers he actually states as a positive point in trying to establish trust in the community by using it as a metric to chase the most visibly discussed issues. They were doing it as he describes, to build trust with their social user base in general.

Which seems to be a positively construed element given he translates that as part of the success in cutting the hemorrhaging users and increasing retention.

Was the goal here to say "streamers bad", or "streamers good"?

Dibdabs

Streamers are so generic I am surprised they can attract and maintain an audience.  They're just clones of each other.

Ralphie2449

Uwakionna said:

 He mentioned community broadly, which speaks as well to things like Reddit and Forum.

The recent season 21 leaks also came from a "community summit"

Want to hazard a guess who was into said COMMUNITY summit that required signing of NDAs, it was definitely not the broad community for obvious reasons, it was popular STREAMERS who get access and knowledge about the upcoming season for being STREAMERS. They quite literally mentioned streamers in that video as well.

You dont control a community, if you dont control the streamers, and devs in order to control streamers will pander to them directly by events such as these and making favourable changes so their precious streamers dont start moaning which as I have explained months ago at OP, lead to general community whining since many players often take their talking points from streamers and spread them.

And suddenly the forums, reddit and twitters are all moaning about a single issue(that is often not even the cause of why they dont enjoy the game) because streamers started bringing up that topic everywhere.

Pretty much the thing I explained at op, funny thing when devs themselves seem to confirm this.

Uwakionna

Guess I shouldn't be surprised by the cherry picking and context-changing.