Personally I'm in the lucky position that my eyes can find pleasure even in what others might call ugly games.
Games like EQ1, LotRO, Warhammer Online etc. give me this nostalgia vibe and after I play them for e few days my eyes kinda adjust so much that I'd even call a Warhammer Online beautiful.
Maybe thats because I'm a very art affine person and the games art style overrides the technically bad graphics or it's just simple nostalgia.
To answer the question, not much, art style and gameplay matters a lot more to me.
Could you answer that question by how much people spend on their PC?
Spending real money for better graphics sounds like a good way to judge how much people care about their graphics.
Sometimes it's spending real money for higher frame rates. Sometimes it's spending money so that you can play whatever game shows up rather than sometimes not meeting the system specs. And sometimes it's spending real money for a computer that is also used for things other than gaming.
Yes I agree, so to get better frame rates you have to lower the graphic settings, having a high end PC allows you to play with high frame rates and high graphics.
I mean, people only lower the settings because they have too.
edit : gamers often spend thousands of Euros (2,400 Euros for 4090) just to be able to play on ultra with high fps. I'd say that means that they care.
Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
While I prefer deeper gameplay, there is a certain minimum level of graphics I need to play. LotRO's is nice and especially in the small touches like the reflective marble floor in the dwarf areas. The UI isn't great though and little things like that keep me from playing for any length of time. New World is beautiful but the devs have no clue what to do with it and screw up on such a recurring basis that I stopped logging in for pretty much everything a couple of weeks back. I've got hopes for the upcoming Throne & Liberty despite NCSoft...
I know that MMOs are a special case, but the question stands.
I think it's completely personal preference. I love minecraft and play text based MUDs and don't even care if the game has graphics but I can totally understand people who wouldn't touch something that they thought looked bad.
To me it's all just eye candy. I don't think graphics alone will do anything to help a game if under the hood it's complete trash.
I would say good graphics for sure are important to most people but a lot of people gameplay trumps them every time.
Just think about something like chess. I love chess as well btw.
Basic Form vs Essence discussion all over again. This is my take:
A pleasant Form is necessary. Because just like in dating world(etc), how are you going to pick up someone's interest if there's nothing there, sub-average forms and all. This is used to get your attention.
But a comfortable, interesting Essence is even more important. Because the eye and the mind adjust themselves, not a big deal. And then all that's left is Essence. This is important for Long Term Retention.
Ideally? A game should have interesting artwork that's easy on the eyes with more focus on the gameplay. Note: This don't mean Minecraft or MUDs. Rather, something like DoW 1. Or LoTRO / WAR etc. Don't really care about graphics in themselves if they don't bring anything to immersion.
I know that MMOs are a special case, but the question stands.
I think it's completely personal preference. I love minecraft and play text based MUDs and don't even care if the game has graphics but I can totally understand people who wouldn't touch something that they thought looked bad.
To me it's all just eye candy. I don't think graphics alone will do anything to help a game if under the hood it's complete trash.
I would say good graphics for sure are important to most people but a lot of people gameplay trumps them every time.
Just think about something like chess. I love chess as well btw.
Basic Form vs Essence discussion all over again. This is my take:
A pleasant Form is necessary. Because just like in dating world(etc), how are you going to pick up someone's interest if there's nothing there, sub-average forms and all. This is used to get your attention.
But a comfortable, interesting Essence is even more important. Because the eye and the mind adjust themselves, not a big deal. And then all that's left is Essence. This is important for Long Term Retention.
Ideally? A game should have interesting artwork that's easy on the eyes with more focus on the gameplay. Note: This don't mean Minecraft or MUDs. Rather, something like DoW 1. Or LoTRO / WAR etc. Don't really care about graphics in themselves if they don't bring anything to immersion.
I guess one could really sum it up with the old "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" even though I've read stuff saying it isn't and it's held to an unchanging, higher, perfect standard.
I dunno maybe it's just because I'm old but I don't need graphics in my entertainment. I'm fine playing MUDs or reading books. I don't need to just watch movies or play something with really good graphics. I was however exposed to the entire evolution of computer graphics from the Commodore 64 and Atari to Nintendo, Super Nintendo, Sega Genesis, computers starting with the 286 and 386, 5 1/4 floppies, Kings Quest, Commander Keen and the like.
From my point of view those old games are not ugly since at one point they were fantastic achievements. Going from 8 bit to 16 bit was amazing. Different perspective I guess.
"You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Gamers with more disposable income than common sense, yep they definitely care about graphics.
That's why this thread is not entitled "How much does gameplay really matter in MMORPGs?" A gamers mindset too often thinks about the graphics first, we have seen players posting on here who can put graphics to one side but most of us cannot.
Besides if I could still use the PC I bought ten years ago to play every MMORPG out there today I think it would be fair to ask what the hell is going on. MMORG's and gaming should be advancing not regressing. The problem is that content and gameplay have become casualties of the graphics first and foremost approach.
Gameplay and systems - crafting, exploration, combat, dungeons; all of it - matter singificantly more than Graphics imo. Especially seeing as newer games often require extremely expensive PCs (or the knowhow to build your own) to avoid melting already as it is.
Would it be nice for modern MMOs to be as pretty as some of the titles on consoles, or even some of the stuff like BDO? Sure. But it's not necessary.
Gamers with more disposable income than common sense, yep they definitely care about graphics.
That's why this thread is not entitled "How much does gameplay really matter in MMORPGs?" A gamers mindset too often thinks about the graphics first, we have seen players posting on here who can put graphics to one side but most of us cannot.
Besides if I could still use the PC I bought ten years ago to play every MMORPG out there today I think it would be fair to ask what the hell is going on. MMORG's and gaming should be advancing not regressing. The problem is that content and gameplay have become casualties of the graphics first and foremost approach.
Yes. Going overboard with graphics(NOT artwork!) can and will have severe repercussions. I know that isn't the only problem that Darktide has, but having ass huge requirements on top of other problems didn't really help, did it?
Since Role Playing has such a great part in the genre for many people, I'd say the graphics and the overall pleasantry of the games visuals matters a lot for the genre.
You can have the same exact game but the one with better visual fidelity will provide a better experience since it conveys better immersion:
Since Role Playing has such a great part in the genre for many people, I'd say the graphics and the overall pleasantry of the games visuals matters a lot for the genre.
You can have the same exact game but the one with better visual fidelity will provide a better experience since it conveys better immersion:
Since Role Playing has such a great part in the genre for many people, I'd say the graphics and the overall pleasantry of the games visuals matters a lot for the genre.
You can have the same exact game but the one with better visual fidelity will provide a better experience since it conveys better immersion:
I think it matters more for immersion players rather than role players, remember that in table top RPG figures and maps are more of a bygone era, you just talk.
But is the MMORPG role player a different breed to table top, the spectrum of roleplayers from tabletop through MMORPG to immersion is a grey area? We seem to pick and mix what we want out of a MMORPG. I come from a table top background and have roleplayed in (some not all) the MMORPG's I have been in; and I do not regard myself as an immersion player, but I value graphics way too much. I guess that is my gamer background dictating what I expect from all games no matter what I do in them.
In fact graphics can be a hinderance to roleplaying, if it is not on screen you don't have to explain it. So if something looks lore breaking and you are with other roleplayers things like that get ignored or are given a lore make over to make them sound reasonable. Looking at you barbers poles in Lotro, we just pretended they weren't there.
Since Role Playing has such a great part in the genre for many people, I'd say the graphics and the overall pleasantry of the games visuals matters a lot for the genre.
You can have the same exact game but the one with better visual fidelity will provide a better experience since it conveys better immersion:
I think it matters more for immersion players rather than role players, remember that in table top RPG figures and maps are more of a bygone era, you just talk.
But is the MMORPG role player a different breed to table top, the spectrum of roleplayers from tabletop through MMORPG to immersion is a grey area? We seem to pick and mix what we want out of a MMORPG. I come from a table top background and have roleplayed in (some not all) the MMORPG's I have been in; and I do not regard myself as an immersion player, but I value graphics way too much. I guess that is my gamer background dictating what I expect from all games no matter what I do in them.
In fact graphics can be a hinderance to roleplaying, if it is not on screen you don't have to explain it. So if something looks lore breaking and you are with other roleplayers things like that get ignored or are given a lore make over to make them sound reasonable. Looking at you barbers poles in Lotro, we just pretended they weren't there.
Immersion players? Care to explain the difference between a roleplayer and an immersion player?
Immersion players? Care to explain the difference between a roleplayer and an immersion player?
Gamers do refer to themselves using these descriptors, but I don't think we all even mean the same thing when we use them.
A proper explanation would be like going down the rabbit hole, the same one that posters disappear down when they want to define what a MMORPG is supposed to mean.
This is my interpretation of an immersion player. An immersion player is a player that sometimes in fact often plays a game for the experience of exploring and experiencing the world and not necessarily the game for the other players. They may be loners who solo and simply want the whole world of the MMORPG but that world is like drawn and painted canvas on which they can feel themselves as part of the world and when they see other players they see them like they would the NPCs that inhabit the world.
I am not saying an immersion player is not a social player and one who eschews groups and playing with others but that often the immersion players needs to be alone to be immersed in the world. Often other players actually break that immersion and so they avoid them except when they need to complete some group content.
The immersion player may be a subset of the MMORPG player collective but there are may subsets in the MMORPG space itself.
It is a different way to enjoy a rich world and one many players who chase the grouping experience can miss. How many times have you gone inside a dungeon and rushed through it with no time to even look around properly. This would upset an immersion player. The usual way players play an MMORPG is to level and do dungeons and get more powerful. While that is a perfectly fun and valid way to play it is not what an immersion player wants.
You might find immersion players often involved in crafting and decorating houses and where there is agriculture and husbandry with trade they may be heavily involved in that aspect.
There is also the commercial player who enjoy fiddling with the auction house and spends time pouring over the sales and profits without a care about the world or the dungeon diving.
There are crafters who excel in their chosen craft and spend inordinate amounts of time gathering and making items for their guildees or other players for huge profits. There is the raider whose main interest is to be the first to clear every dungeon in a game or nearly the first anyway.
I think there are many ways to play an MMORPG and an immersion player can exist with the raider quite well as they inhabit often different spheres of interest.
This is my interpretation of an immersion player. An immersion player is a player that sometimes in fact often plays a game for the experience of exploring and experiencing the world and not necessarily the game for the other players. They may be loners who solo and simply want the whole world of the MMORPG but that world is like drawn and painted canvas on which they can feel themselves as part of the world and when they see other players they see them like they would the NPCs that inhabit the world.
I am not saying an immersion player is not a social player and one who eschews groups and playing with others but that often the immersion players needs to be alone to be immersed in the world. Often other players actually break that immersion and so they avoid them except when they need to complete some group content.
The immersion player may be a subset of the MMORPG player collective but there are may subsets in the MMORPG space itself.
It is a different way to enjoy a rich world and one many players who chase the grouping experience can miss. How many times have you gone inside a dungeon and rushed through it with no time to even look around properly. This would upset an immersion player. The usual way players play an MMORPG is to level and do dungeons and get more powerful. While that is a perfectly fun and valid way to play it is not what an immersion player wants.
You might find immersion players often involved in crafting and decorating houses and where there is agriculture and husbandry with trade they may be heavily involved in that aspect.
There is also the commercial player who enjoy fiddling with the auction house and spends time pouring over the sales and profits without a care about the world or the dungeon diving.
There are crafters who excel in their chosen craft and spend inordinate amounts of time gathering and making items for their guildees or other players for huge profits. There is the raider whose main interest is to be the first to clear every dungeon in a game or nearly the first anyway.
I think there are many ways to play an MMORPG and an immersion player can exist with the raider quite well as they inhabit often different spheres of interest.
There are multiple ways one can immerse itself. Of all the games, Nioh immersed me the best with its combat. But that is only one subset of immersion.
I would classify myself as efficiency minded immersion player. Not a roleplayer per se, no. I sometimes roleplay, but I am much more about immersion.
This is my interpretation of an immersion player. An immersion player is a player that sometimes in fact often plays a game for the experience of exploring and experiencing the world and not necessarily the game for the other players. They may be loners who solo and simply want the whole world of the MMORPG but that world is like drawn and painted canvas on which they can feel themselves as part of the world and when they see other players they see them like they would the NPCs that inhabit the world.
I am not saying an immersion player is not a social player and one who eschews groups and playing with others but that often the immersion players needs to be alone to be immersed in the world. Often other players actually break that immersion and so they avoid them except when they need to complete some group content.
The immersion player may be a subset of the MMORPG player collective but there are may subsets in the MMORPG space itself.
It is a different way to enjoy a rich world and one many players who chase the grouping experience can miss. How many times have you gone inside a dungeon and rushed through it with no time to even look around properly. This would upset an immersion player. The usual way players play an MMORPG is to level and do dungeons and get more powerful. While that is a perfectly fun and valid way to play it is not what an immersion player wants.
You might find immersion players often involved in crafting and decorating houses and where there is agriculture and husbandry with trade they may be heavily involved in that aspect.
There is also the commercial player who enjoy fiddling with the auction house and spends time pouring over the sales and profits without a care about the world or the dungeon diving.
There are crafters who excel in their chosen craft and spend inordinate amounts of time gathering and making items for their guildees or other players for huge profits. There is the raider whose main interest is to be the first to clear every dungeon in a game or nearly the first anyway.
I think there are many ways to play an MMORPG and an immersion player can exist with the raider quite well as they inhabit often different spheres of interest.
There are multiple ways one can immerse itself. Of all the games, Nioh immersed me the best with its combat. But that is only one subset of immersion.
I would classify myself as efficiency minded immersion player. Not a roleplayer per se, no. I sometimes roleplay, but I am much more about immersion.
You're hitting a zone in Nioh that's absorbing your attention. You're hitting a flow state. I would argue that's a different kind of immersion from being immersed in a game world itself.
I'm not making a value judgement on any of it, mind you. But being in the zone performing a relatively stressful reactive task (combat) seems fundamentally different, to me, to losing one's self to the wonder of merely exploring a virtual game world. The exploration usually isn't reactive (the player chooses where to explore), and it generally involves periods where the player character isn't directly threatened. I.e. in walking simulator games you can feel fully immersed in the world-building presented without ever having to react to any threats like you would on combat. That immersion, however, is very different than being immersed in a boss fight in Elden Ring.
This is my interpretation of an immersion player. An immersion player is a player that sometimes in fact often plays a game for the experience of exploring and experiencing the world and not necessarily the game for the other players. They may be loners who solo and simply want the whole world of the MMORPG but that world is like drawn and painted canvas on which they can feel themselves as part of the world and when they see other players they see them like they would the NPCs that inhabit the world.
I am not saying an immersion player is not a social player and one who eschews groups and playing with others but that often the immersion players needs to be alone to be immersed in the world. Often other players actually break that immersion and so they avoid them except when they need to complete some group content.
The immersion player may be a subset of the MMORPG player collective but there are may subsets in the MMORPG space itself.
It is a different way to enjoy a rich world and one many players who chase the grouping experience can miss. How many times have you gone inside a dungeon and rushed through it with no time to even look around properly. This would upset an immersion player. The usual way players play an MMORPG is to level and do dungeons and get more powerful. While that is a perfectly fun and valid way to play it is not what an immersion player wants.
You might find immersion players often involved in crafting and decorating houses and where there is agriculture and husbandry with trade they may be heavily involved in that aspect.
There is also the commercial player who enjoy fiddling with the auction house and spends time pouring over the sales and profits without a care about the world or the dungeon diving.
There are crafters who excel in their chosen craft and spend inordinate amounts of time gathering and making items for their guildees or other players for huge profits. There is the raider whose main interest is to be the first to clear every dungeon in a game or nearly the first anyway.
I think there are many ways to play an MMORPG and an immersion player can exist with the raider quite well as they inhabit often different spheres of interest.
There are multiple ways one can immerse itself. Of all the games, Nioh immersed me the best with its combat. But that is only one subset of immersion.
I would classify myself as efficiency minded immersion player. Not a roleplayer per se, no. I sometimes roleplay, but I am much more about immersion.
You're hitting a zone in Nioh that's absorbing your attention. You're hitting a flow state. I would argue that's a different kind of immersion from being immersed in a game world itself.
I'm not making a value judgement on any of it, mind you. But being in the zone performing a relatively stressful reactive task (combat) seems fundamentally different, to me, to losing one's self to the wonder of merely exploring a virtual game world. The exploration usually isn't reactive (the player chooses where to explore), and it generally involves periods where the player character isn't directly threatened. I.e. in walking simulator games you can feel fully immersed in the world-building presented without ever having to react to any threats like you would on combat. That immersion, however, is very different than being immersed in a boss fight in Elden Ring.
The flow state? Yes, yes, I consider it a crucial part of immersion. With that said, I'm rather to the point, I don't really like to meander about the world.
This is my interpretation of an immersion player. An immersion player is a player that sometimes in fact often plays a game for the experience of exploring and experiencing the world and not necessarily the game for the other players. They may be loners who solo and simply want the whole world of the MMORPG but that world is like drawn and painted canvas on which they can feel themselves as part of the world and when they see other players they see them like they would the NPCs that inhabit the world.
I am not saying an immersion player is not a social player and one who eschews groups and playing with others but that often the immersion players needs to be alone to be immersed in the world. Often other players actually break that immersion and so they avoid them except when they need to complete some group content.
The immersion player may be a subset of the MMORPG player collective but there are may subsets in the MMORPG space itself.
It is a different way to enjoy a rich world and one many players who chase the grouping experience can miss. How many times have you gone inside a dungeon and rushed through it with no time to even look around properly. This would upset an immersion player. The usual way players play an MMORPG is to level and do dungeons and get more powerful. While that is a perfectly fun and valid way to play it is not what an immersion player wants.
You might find immersion players often involved in crafting and decorating houses and where there is agriculture and husbandry with trade they may be heavily involved in that aspect.
There is also the commercial player who enjoy fiddling with the auction house and spends time pouring over the sales and profits without a care about the world or the dungeon diving.
There are crafters who excel in their chosen craft and spend inordinate amounts of time gathering and making items for their guildees or other players for huge profits. There is the raider whose main interest is to be the first to clear every dungeon in a game or nearly the first anyway.
I think there are many ways to play an MMORPG and an immersion player can exist with the raider quite well as they inhabit often different spheres of interest.
There are multiple ways one can immerse itself. Of all the games, Nioh immersed me the best with its combat. But that is only one subset of immersion.
I would classify myself as efficiency minded immersion player. Not a roleplayer per se, no. I sometimes roleplay, but I am much more about immersion.
You're hitting a zone in Nioh that's absorbing your attention. You're hitting a flow state. I would argue that's a different kind of immersion from being immersed in a game world itself.
I'm not making a value judgement on any of it, mind you. But being in the zone performing a relatively stressful reactive task (combat) seems fundamentally different, to me, to losing one's self to the wonder of merely exploring a virtual game world. The exploration usually isn't reactive (the player chooses where to explore), and it generally involves periods where the player character isn't directly threatened. I.e. in walking simulator games you can feel fully immersed in the world-building presented without ever having to react to any threats like you would on combat. That immersion, however, is very different than being immersed in a boss fight in Elden Ring.
The flow state? Yes, yes, I consider it a crucial part of immersion. With that said, I'm rather to the point, I don't really like to meander about the world.
Aye, both are undoubtedly forms of immersion, bit one is more adrenaline-packed than the other.
I'm not sure what that means for the flow state psychologically, but they seem like really different types of immersion.
4080ti owner here, i can tell you, that for me, graphics matter a lot. I simply wont play a game that looks bad. I do let older games get the pass but for a new game if it looks like shit, I won't even play it. Furthermore, I have refunded a few steam games before the 2 hour window due to graphics.
Comments
Games like EQ1, LotRO, Warhammer Online etc. give me this nostalgia vibe and after I play them for e few days my eyes kinda adjust so much that I'd even call a Warhammer Online beautiful.
Maybe thats because I'm a very art affine person and the games art style overrides the technically bad graphics or it's just simple nostalgia.
To answer the question, not much, art style and gameplay matters a lot more to me.
Yes I agree, so to get better frame rates you have to lower the graphic settings, having a high end PC allows you to play with high frame rates and high graphics.
I mean, people only lower the settings because they have too.
edit : gamers often spend thousands of Euros (2,400 Euros for 4090) just to be able to play on ultra with high fps. I'd say that means that they care.
Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Proud MMORPG.com member since March 2004! Make PvE GREAT Again!
A pleasant Form is necessary. Because just like in dating world(etc), how are you going to pick up someone's interest if there's nothing there, sub-average forms and all. This is used to get your attention.
But a comfortable, interesting Essence is even more important. Because the eye and the mind adjust themselves, not a big deal. And then all that's left is Essence. This is important for Long Term Retention.
Ideally? A game should have interesting artwork that's easy on the eyes with more focus on the gameplay. Note: This don't mean Minecraft or MUDs. Rather, something like DoW 1. Or LoTRO / WAR etc. Don't really care about graphics in themselves if they don't bring anything to immersion.
I dunno maybe it's just because I'm old but I don't need graphics in my entertainment. I'm fine playing MUDs or reading books. I don't need to just watch movies or play something with really good graphics. I was however exposed to the entire evolution of computer graphics from the Commodore 64 and Atari to Nintendo, Super Nintendo, Sega Genesis, computers starting with the 286 and 386, 5 1/4 floppies, Kings Quest, Commander Keen and the like.
From my point of view those old games are not ugly since at one point they were fantastic achievements. Going from 8 bit to 16 bit was amazing. Different perspective I guess.
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/Besides if I could still use the PC I bought ten years ago to play every MMORPG out there today I think it would be fair to ask what the hell is going on. MMORG's and gaming should be advancing not regressing. The problem is that content and gameplay have become casualties of the graphics first and foremost approach.
Would it be nice for modern MMOs to be as pretty as some of the titles on consoles, or even some of the stuff like BDO? Sure. But it's not necessary.
But is the MMORPG role player a different breed to table top, the spectrum of roleplayers from tabletop through MMORPG to immersion is a grey area? We seem to pick and mix what we want out of a MMORPG. I come from a table top background and have roleplayed in (some not all) the MMORPG's I have been in; and I do not regard myself as an immersion player, but I value graphics way too much. I guess that is my gamer background dictating what I expect from all games no matter what I do in them.
In fact graphics can be a hinderance to roleplaying, if it is not on screen you don't have to explain it. So if something looks lore breaking and you are with other roleplayers things like that get ignored or are given a lore make over to make them sound reasonable. Looking at you barbers poles in Lotro, we just pretended they weren't there.
A proper explanation would be like going down the rabbit hole, the same one that posters disappear down when they want to define what a MMORPG is supposed to mean.
I am not saying an immersion player is not a social player and one who eschews groups and playing with others but that often the immersion players needs to be alone to be immersed in the world. Often other players actually break that immersion and so they avoid them except when they need to complete some group content.
The immersion player may be a subset of the MMORPG player collective but there are may subsets in the MMORPG space itself.
It is a different way to enjoy a rich world and one many players who chase the grouping experience can miss. How many times have you gone inside a dungeon and rushed through it with no time to even look around properly. This would upset an immersion player. The usual way players play an MMORPG is to level and do dungeons and get more powerful. While that is a perfectly fun and valid way to play it is not what an immersion player wants.
You might find immersion players often involved in crafting and decorating houses and where there is agriculture and husbandry with trade they may be heavily involved in that aspect.
There is also the commercial player who enjoy fiddling with the auction house and spends time pouring over the sales and profits without a care about the world or the dungeon diving.
There are crafters who excel in their chosen craft and spend inordinate amounts of time gathering and making items for their guildees or other players for huge profits. There is the raider whose main interest is to be the first to clear every dungeon in a game or nearly the first anyway.
I think there are many ways to play an MMORPG and an immersion player can exist with the raider quite well as they inhabit often different spheres of interest.
I would classify myself as efficiency minded immersion player. Not a roleplayer per se, no. I sometimes roleplay, but I am much more about immersion.
I'm not making a value judgement on any of it, mind you. But being in the zone performing a relatively stressful reactive task (combat) seems fundamentally different, to me, to losing one's self to the wonder of merely exploring a virtual game world. The exploration usually isn't reactive (the player chooses where to explore), and it generally involves periods where the player character isn't directly threatened. I.e. in walking simulator games you can feel fully immersed in the world-building presented without ever having to react to any threats like you would on combat. That immersion, however, is very different than being immersed in a boss fight in Elden Ring.
I'm not sure what that means for the flow state psychologically, but they seem like really different types of immersion.
No 2 is the bugless game.
Achievements are the No 3
story is worthless.