Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I'm surprised this scam is still going and hasn't been shut down yet
Considering the massive heap of funding they get all the time I'm very surprised that you or anyone is any surprised of the fact this is still going ?
so because a scam is successful, we should let it carry on for ever ? Great Idea........... NOT
I dont have the dimmest clue what you're trying to say.
Obviously nobody here has control over whoever keeps spending these insane amounts of money on Star Citizen.
Yet you somehow assume otherwise.
Since you seem to be incapable of simple logic i will explain it as i would to a 4 year old
SCAMS ARE ILLEGAL. Therefore they should be shut down. The fact that this is a very successful scam does not stop that from being true. Hence my original statement
Top 3 MMO's PRE-CU SWG GW1 GW2
Worst 2 wow and Lotro Under standing stones it went woke
Since you seem to be incapable of simple logic i will explain it as i would to a 4 year old SCAMS ARE ILLEGAL. Therefore they should be shut down. The fact that this is a very successful scam does not stop that from being true. Hence my original statement
So sue them instead of crying in forums, if it's such a blatant scam you'll be able to prove it without a problem
I'm surprised this scam is still going and hasn't been shut down yet
Considering the massive heap of funding they get all the time I'm very surprised that you or anyone is any surprised of the fact this is still going ?
so because a scam is successful, we should let it carry on for ever ? Great Idea........... NOT
I dont have the dimmest clue what you're trying to say.
Obviously nobody here has control over whoever keeps spending these insane amounts of money on Star Citizen.
Yet you somehow assume otherwise.
Since you seem to be incapable of simple logic i will explain it as i would to a 4 year old
SCAMS ARE ILLEGAL. Therefore they should be shut down. The fact that this is a very successful scam does not stop that from being true. Hence my original statement
I don't really see SC as a scam. They aren't sending the money to a Nigerian Prince, they are actually trying to make a game. You can play whatever they have at the time.
And as far as I know, people who "donate" or "pledge" aren't expecting a monetary return on their investment. So it isn't a scam in that sense either.
So is it a crime if people keep buying into the vision, which is admittedly grand? Even if that vision is an illusion? Every schedule by the developer has been hilariously wrong. It happened on his last game too. Is it a crime to keep selling possibilites? Isn't that what Marketing is?
I'm surprised this scam is still going and hasn't been shut down yet
Considering the massive heap of funding they get all the time I'm very surprised that you or anyone is any surprised of the fact this is still going ?
so because a scam is successful, we should let it carry on for ever ? Great Idea........... NOT
I dont have the dimmest clue what you're trying to say.
Obviously nobody here has control over whoever keeps spending these insane amounts of money on Star Citizen.
Yet you somehow assume otherwise.
Since you seem to be incapable of simple logic i will explain it as i would to a 4 year old
SCAMS ARE ILLEGAL. Therefore they should be shut down. The fact that this is a very successful scam does not stop that from being true. Hence my original statement
I don't really see SC as a scam. They aren't sending the money to a Nigerian Prince, they are actually trying to make a game. You can play whatever they have at the time.
And as far as I know, people who "donate" or "pledge" aren't expecting a monetary return on their investment. So it isn't a scam in that sense either.
So is it a crime if people keep buying into the vision, which is admittedly grand? Even if that vision is an illusion? Every schedule by the developer has been hilariously wrong. It happened on his last game too. Is it a crime to keep selling possibilites? Isn't that what Marketing is?
It all depends on if it ever crossed the line into fraud.
If for instance he knew that it was a lie when he said they needed no extra money to make the game and the 500,000 Kickstarter goal was just to add on some stretch goals… that very likely could be fraud. That’s different from marketing.
So I will always say that those who buy in today, with the availability of “fly free” trials and a history of incompetence back to 2012, well those have no grounds to complain. But people who were told they already had all the money they needed and it would take 3 years, and were shown “in game” videos and pictures (that turned out to not be in game after all)… well I think those people have every right to call fraud.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I'm surprised this scam is still going and hasn't been shut down yet
Considering the massive heap of funding they get all the time I'm very surprised that you or anyone is any surprised of the fact this is still going ?
so because a scam is successful, we should let it carry on for ever ? Great Idea........... NOT
I dont have the dimmest clue what you're trying to say.
Obviously nobody here has control over whoever keeps spending these insane amounts of money on Star Citizen.
Yet you somehow assume otherwise.
Since you seem to be incapable of simple logic i will explain it as i would to a 4 year old
SCAMS ARE ILLEGAL. Therefore they should be shut down. The fact that this is a very successful scam does not stop that from being true. Hence my original statement
I don't really see SC as a scam. They aren't sending the money to a Nigerian Prince, they are actually trying to make a game. You can play whatever they have at the time.
And as far as I know, people who "donate" or "pledge" aren't expecting a monetary return on their investment. So it isn't a scam in that sense either.
So is it a crime if people keep buying into the vision, which is admittedly grand? Even if that vision is an illusion? Every schedule by the developer has been hilariously wrong. It happened on his last game too. Is it a crime to keep selling possibilites? Isn't that what Marketing is?
It all depends on if it ever crossed the line into fraud.
If for instance he knew that it was a lie when he said they needed no extra money to make the game and the 500,000 Kickstarter goal was just to add on some stretch goals… that very likely could be fraud. That’s different from marketing.
So I will always say that those who buy in today, with the availability of “fly free” trials and a history of incompetence back to 2012, well those have no grounds to complain. But people who were told they already had all the money they needed and it would take 3 years, and were shown “in game” videos and pictures (that turned out to not be in game after all)… well I think those people have every right to call fraud.
I just had a picture in my mind for a second there of Chris Roberts as a Nigerian prince, made my morning.
I'm surprised this scam is still going and hasn't been shut down yet
Considering the massive heap of funding they get all the time I'm very surprised that you or anyone is any surprised of the fact this is still going ?
so because a scam is successful, we should let it carry on for ever ? Great Idea........... NOT
I dont have the dimmest clue what you're trying to say.
Obviously nobody here has control over whoever keeps spending these insane amounts of money on Star Citizen.
Yet you somehow assume otherwise.
Since you seem to be incapable of simple logic i will explain it as i would to a 4 year old
SCAMS ARE ILLEGAL. Therefore they should be shut down. The fact that this is a very successful scam does not stop that from being true. Hence my original statement
I don't really see SC as a scam. They aren't sending the money to a Nigerian Prince, they are actually trying to make a game. You can play whatever they have at the time.
And as far as I know, people who "donate" or "pledge" aren't expecting a monetary return on their investment. So it isn't a scam in that sense either.
So is it a crime if people keep buying into the vision, which is admittedly grand? Even if that vision is an illusion? Every schedule by the developer has been hilariously wrong. It happened on his last game too. Is it a crime to keep selling possibilites? Isn't that what Marketing is?
It all depends on if it ever crossed the line into fraud.
If for instance he knew that it was a lie when he said they needed no extra money to make the game and the 500,000 Kickstarter goal was just to add on some stretch goals… that very likely could be fraud. That’s different from marketing.
So I will always say that those who buy in today, with the availability of “fly free” trials and a history of incompetence back to 2012, well those have no grounds to complain. But people who were told they already had all the money they needed and it would take 3 years, and were shown “in game” videos and pictures (that turned out to not be in game after all)… well I think those people have every right to call fraud.
In America it is usually "buyer beware". If you buy something, you are responsible for buying it. If you didn't check it out first, that is your problem.
If there is some kind of contract involved, then you can claim fraud. They promised this, but didn't deliver. Or, they promised that, but I got this instead. You can sue for damages in that case.
I think that is why SC has been so careful not to release: you aren't "buying" anything, you are "contributing" to a development effort. And they are making the effort. They also make it clear that if their effort fails, you don't get your money back. There is no real contract.
So it's not a scam in any kind of legal or technical sense. People bought into the hype, and it was hype. It's a kind of moral scam, but not legal. In normal development, anybody who was off by this much would have been fired long ago. But not prosecuted.
The exception might be the Theranos debacle. They also promised all kinds of things that turned out to be hype, and they were prosecuted. That's because they had investors who expected a return, and those investors were lied to. That crosses the line into fraud.
I've been in half a dozen startups, and almost all of them failed because they sold a vision for a product, but could never really make the product. Nobody ever gets prosecuted.
I'm surprised this scam is still going and hasn't been shut down yet
Considering the massive heap of funding they get all the time I'm very surprised that you or anyone is any surprised of the fact this is still going ?
so because a scam is successful, we should let it carry on for ever ? Great Idea........... NOT
I dont have the dimmest clue what you're trying to say.
Obviously nobody here has control over whoever keeps spending these insane amounts of money on Star Citizen.
Yet you somehow assume otherwise.
Since you seem to be incapable of simple logic i will explain it as i would to a 4 year old
SCAMS ARE ILLEGAL. Therefore they should be shut down. The fact that this is a very successful scam does not stop that from being true. Hence my original statement
I don't really see SC as a scam. They aren't sending the money to a Nigerian Prince, they are actually trying to make a game. You can play whatever they have at the time.
And as far as I know, people who "donate" or "pledge" aren't expecting a monetary return on their investment. So it isn't a scam in that sense either.
So is it a crime if people keep buying into the vision, which is admittedly grand? Even if that vision is an illusion? Every schedule by the developer has been hilariously wrong. It happened on his last game too. Is it a crime to keep selling possibilites? Isn't that what Marketing is?
It all depends on if it ever crossed the line into fraud.
If for instance he knew that it was a lie when he said they needed no extra money to make the game and the 500,000 Kickstarter goal was just to add on some stretch goals… that very likely could be fraud. That’s different from marketing.
So I will always say that those who buy in today, with the availability of “fly free” trials and a history of incompetence back to 2012, well those have no grounds to complain. But people who were told they already had all the money they needed and it would take 3 years, and were shown “in game” videos and pictures (that turned out to not be in game after all)… well I think those people have every right to call fraud.
In America it is usually "buyer beware". If you buy something, you are responsible for buying it. If you didn't check it out first, that is your problem.
If there is some kind of contract involved, then you can claim fraud. They promised this, but didn't deliver. Or, they promised that, but I got this instead. You can sue for damages in that case.
I think that is why SC has been so careful not to release: you aren't "buying" anything, you are "contributing" to a development effort. And they are making the effort. They also make it clear that if their effort fails, you don't get your money back. There is no real contract.
So it's not a scam in any kind of legal or technical sense. People bought into the hype, and it was hype. It's a kind of moral scam, but not legal. In normal development, anybody who was off by this much would have been fired long ago. But not prosecuted.
The exception might be the Theranos debacle. They also promised all kinds of things that turned out to be hype, and they were prosecuted. That's because they had investors who expected a return, and those investors were lied to. That crosses the line into fraud.
I've been in half a dozen startups, and almost all of them failed because they sold a vision for a product, but could never really make the product. Nobody ever gets prosecuted.
That is not exactly true. A fraud or a scam is not dependent on the existence of a contract.
First, there is the matter of statutory law (as opposed to contractual law) that governs this kind of commercial relations both in the absence of a contract and in case of merchants wishing you to sign all kinds of unethical agreements with them, which the law makes illegal.
Even if there is no contract between a player and CIG, the nature of your relation can be defined elsewhere (e.g. merchant code, consumer law, etc.). For example, in case of CIG you are actually buying a product or service from them, which is easily demonstrated by the simple fact that in the EU you have to pay VAT on every purchase you make in the CIG store. If it were a donation (mostly understood to involve foundations or charities, not commercial operators), VAT usually does not apply. So the nature of your relations with CIG (purchase of a commercial product) is defined by the law, not by CIG. CIG can claim all they want that you are merely donating - their arguments do not override the applicable law on online purchases.
Second, there is also the matter of warranties. In the US there is the notion of implied warranty of merchantability, which basically says that when you buy something it will do what it is expected to do. That can mean the functioning of the product, but it could also mean its existence in the first place. After all, if there is no product 10 years after the merchant 'sold' it to you, what merchantability are we even talking about? If there is a product, is it in a state the merchant promised you it would be when he sold you the product? There are also other types of warranties that could apply - but also, the overarching statutory law that takes precedence before, or in the absence of, any contract.
Anyway, not to make it too long: this is not only about contractual law. Whether a fraud took place or not is determined based on a number of other non-contractual criteria, including what the merchant promises to the buyer and whether or not the merchant honours the promises.
Incidentally, I highly recommend Steve Lehto's channel, very entertaining stories about all kinds of legal cases. Here's one of several about warranties (granted, it's about used cars, but many principles apply generally):
Comments
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
SCAMS ARE ILLEGAL. Therefore they should be shut down. The fact that this is a very successful scam does not stop that from being true. Hence my original statement
Top 3 MMO's PRE-CU SWG GW1 GW2
Worst 2 wow and Lotro Under standing stones it went woke
It's space game, so The Lesser Magalomaniac Clouds....
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
------------
2024: 47 years on the Net.
If for instance he knew that it was a lie when he said they needed no extra money to make the game and the 500,000 Kickstarter goal was just to add on some stretch goals… that very likely could be fraud. That’s different from marketing.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
------------
2024: 47 years on the Net.
First, there is the matter of statutory law (as opposed to contractual law) that governs this kind of commercial relations both in the absence of a contract and in case of merchants wishing you to sign all kinds of unethical agreements with them, which the law makes illegal.
Even if there is no contract between a player and CIG, the nature of your relation can be defined elsewhere (e.g. merchant code, consumer law, etc.). For example, in case of CIG you are actually buying a product or service from them, which is easily demonstrated by the simple fact that in the EU you have to pay VAT on every purchase you make in the CIG store. If it were a donation (mostly understood to involve foundations or charities, not commercial operators), VAT usually does not apply. So the nature of your relations with CIG (purchase of a commercial product) is defined by the law, not by CIG. CIG can claim all they want that you are merely donating - their arguments do not override the applicable law on online purchases.
Second, there is also the matter of warranties. In the US there is the notion of implied warranty of merchantability, which basically says that when you buy something it will do what it is expected to do. That can mean the functioning of the product, but it could also mean its existence in the first place. After all, if there is no product 10 years after the merchant 'sold' it to you, what merchantability are we even talking about? If there is a product, is it in a state the merchant promised you it would be when he sold you the product? There are also other types of warranties that could apply - but also, the overarching statutory law that takes precedence before, or in the absence of, any contract.
Anyway, not to make it too long: this is not only about contractual law. Whether a fraud took place or not is determined based on a number of other non-contractual criteria, including what the merchant promises to the buyer and whether or not the merchant honours the promises.
Incidentally, I highly recommend Steve Lehto's channel, very entertaining stories about all kinds of legal cases. Here's one of several about warranties (granted, it's about used cars, but many principles apply generally):
(Check 8:50 for a very interesting explanation)