Wrong thread? We weren't talking about BG3 or Larian's monetization practices.
This thread was about a developer's promises (fair and honest monetization) vs what they are delivering, (clearly something that is anything but) not about players not being able to do math or make correct buying choices.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Has our education failed us so badly that we cannot count any more? Are you telling me then when you notice the amount of coins you need is slightly less than the amount you need to buy the cosmetic that your brain suddenly becomes possessed with the insane need to buy the item irrespective of the shortfall.
Every inch of the way is a choice. You make the choice to buy. So deal and stop complaining about these tactics. Use your brain. No one is dumb enough to think when you see every item in the shop having .99 at the end isn't rounded up to the next dollar....
I think it's not about your ability to count, but rather that comparing prices should be fast.
Can you count the real price of purchase? Absolutely. Will you actually bother to do it? Often not. Being able to simply read the price of item and know what it costs without any calculations is valuable in itself regardless of whether you'd be able to calculate its price or not.
Also, this is a bit off-topic, but do US really round the .99 cents always up to next dollar? I thought that was only done for physical cash, not when you're paying with a card. But I'm not from US.
It can be considered a trick but I bet they will say that they only look at loot boxes as a trick since it is gambling but this is simply selling you a product for a price. The fact that they priced the coins out of reach of the item is an acceptable practice since so many F2P games do it. Is it the gaming standard now considering so many games even those with subs use it. How do you prove otherwise what they meant by not using 'tricks'. I bet they will never admit it.
This won't impact them negatively because people have gotten used to this. I certainly have that it no longer registers.
In the world of so many bad practices this isn't going to matter because the magic word here is F2P.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I think pointing out bad practices is not something that should be done in isolation. The circumstances around each exception is an important consideration and F2P is exactly that.
I am playing Diablo 4 and it was 70 Euros. No joke 70 Euros and then they put new cosmetics I saw on the battlenet page of my login rather nice pieces all for some more money. So pointing out bad practices when we have egregious examples of huge game companies like this is completely rubbish.
Blizzard can easily afford to give those for free and we are complaining about a small indie developer trying to survive on cosmetics. I think perspective is an important consideration and not simply sounding an alarm for everything you see because it fits a definition. Explaining the context and saying why it is acceptable is equally important which a lot of people in this thread understand. Just trying to sound smug about pointing out a bad practice is not enough. Explain why you think it is unacceptable. Or are you seriously trying to tell me that they deserve to be written off for this.
I think pointing out bad practices is not something that should be done in isolation. The circumstances around each exception is an important consideration and F2P is exactly that.
I am playing Diablo 4 and it was 70 Euros. No joke 70 Euros and then they put new cosmetics I saw on the battlenet page of my login rather nice pieces all for some more money. So pointing out bad practices when we have egregious examples of huge game companies like this is completely rubbish.
Blizzard can easily afford to give those for free and we are complaining about a small indie developer trying to survive on cosmetics. I think perspective is an important consideration and not simply sounding an alarm for everything you see because it fits a definition. Explaining the context and saying why it is acceptable is equally important which a lot of people in this thread understand. Just trying to sound smug about pointing out a bad practice is not enough. Explain why you think it is unacceptable. Or are you seriously trying to tell me that they deserve to be written off for this.
For some possibly written off, yes. We all have our own point where it becomes too much, you mentioned D4 is becoming a bit much for you. Where I think we differ is it does not matter how big the company is and how relatively greedy they are being. What matters is what the bad practices are, it is the accumulation of those which may not be there at launch which make me say "goodbye".
I make no exceptions for indie etc, they either have decent (ish) practices bearing in mind how bad they generally are now, or they don't. Also bear in mind that for any game the methods of sourcing revenue are being deliberately more obscured each passing year to make it nigh on impossible to accurately judge how much we will spend in a game.
This feeds into something we have discussed before, do we want to stay in gaming? Well when it comes to MMOs I have already made the decision that I am unlikely to play (or stay) unless I get a good guild, that does not have to be from day one mind you.
I think pointing out bad practices is not something that should be done in isolation. The circumstances around each exception is an important consideration and F2P is exactly that.
I am playing Diablo 4 and it was 70 Euros. No joke 70 Euros and then they put new cosmetics I saw on the battlenet page of my login rather nice pieces all for some more money. So pointing out bad practices when we have egregious examples of huge game companies like this is completely rubbish.
Blizzard can easily afford to give those for free and we are complaining about a small indie developer trying to survive on cosmetics. I think perspective is an important consideration and not simply sounding an alarm for everything you see because it fits a definition. Explaining the context and saying why it is acceptable is equally important which a lot of people in this thread understand. Just trying to sound smug about pointing out a bad practice is not enough. Explain why you think it is unacceptable. Or are you seriously trying to tell me that they deserve to be written off for this.
That is what we call hyperbole.
And for the record it does not fall on US to explain "the circumstances around each exception" but rather the COMPANY that promised one thing and apparently delivered another. Go ask THEM why they did it and we can weigh if it's an acceptable answer.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I think pointing out bad practices is not something that should be done in isolation. The circumstances around each exception is an important consideration and F2P is exactly that.
I am playing Diablo 4 and it was 70 Euros. No joke 70 Euros and then they put new cosmetics I saw on the battlenet page of my login rather nice pieces all for some more money. So pointing out bad practices when we have egregious examples of huge game companies like this is completely rubbish.
Blizzard can easily afford to give those for free and we are complaining about a small indie developer trying to survive on cosmetics. I think perspective is an important consideration and not simply sounding an alarm for everything you see because it fits a definition. Explaining the context and saying why it is acceptable is equally important which a lot of people in this thread understand. Just trying to sound smug about pointing out a bad practice is not enough. Explain why you think it is unacceptable. Or are you seriously trying to tell me that they deserve to be written off for this.
That is what we call hyperbole.
And for the record it does not fall on US to explain "the circumstances around each exception" but rather the COMPANY that promised one thing and apparently delivered another. Go ask THEM why they did it and we can weigh if it's an acceptable answer.
For the record I would criticize any and all developers who go back on their word who fail to come clean about something. (Cough cough, CU, cough.)
This particular bad practice is quite intentional and meant to strongly encourage consumers to overspend so no company promising "fair" monetization can honestly consider doing it.
I've loathed it since first running into it in POE, then again and again.
Just because a game is "F2P, " made by an indie or a mega corp makes no difference in this regard.
It's sad really, gaming is the only industry I can think of where the producers have done so many bad practices forever, to the point consumers routinely apologize or "explain" their behaviors)
I think we need a new term for this, from now on I'm calling people out to stop when they start "gamesplaining" on such subjects.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Its still a free to play game with a cosmetic only cash shop. Don't really care if they are using some bad practices to try and get more money out of folks wallets. Hell, half the stuff in your home and the clothes you wear are probably made by forced child labor in china yet here we are complaining about how much some pixels cost.
I don't agree with it either, but i will still play Palia and will probably still get those sweet Nikes.
The fact that they priced the coins out of reach of the item is an acceptable practice since so many F2P games do it.
My kids used to try that. Explain how their bad thing was OK because other people did it. It didn't work for them any more than it does here.
Right or wrong does not depend on other people being the same or worse.
I agree but where Cheyane is right is here:
"In the world of so many bad practices this isn't going to matter because the magic word here is F2P."
That's where we have been for over a decade now.
Yet the base contention that something becomes acceptable because others do it is simply not one I will ever support. As I said, it's what my kids used to try and say. Because other people do bad things does not make it OK for you to do a bad thing.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I put about nearly 700 hours into Undecember and I am not going to excuse its predatory monetization . It is absolutely so . I paid for the pet monthly and I have every stash tab there was to buy. I weighed this against the fun I was clearly having in the game and came up with the conclusion that after about 6 months when I started playing it the monetization had been greatly toned down and I found it acceptable. Yes acceptable and although you might not find it so I still had definitely devoured quite a lot of the game and found it fun.
It's a hobby these games I play. I don't have to gamesplain or give excuses. I am simply having fun and I will support the games I find fun playing. You can complain about these games but we live in the real world where bills have to be paid and employees need to sustain their livelihood. So if a company uses a standard practice other game companies are using I am not going to string them up and label them evil. These developers don't deserve it when Blizzard is doing their song and dance without batting an eyelid and don't forget Diablo Immortal was far worse.
Yes I will compare one egregious practice to another lesser so because not doing so means you're not living in the real world where everything isn't absolute or black and white. It's mostly grey.
I also sincerely doubt their monetization will be the actual consideration players will give when deciding to not play the game. It will be the very last thing on their mind when more pressing things are usually at the forefront of a game like this as far as fun goes.
I put about nearly 700 hours into Undecember and I am not going to excuse its predatory monetization . It is absolutely so . I paid for the pet monthly and I have every stash tab there was to buy. I weighed this against the fun I was clearly having in the game and came up with the conclusion that after about 6 months when I started playing it the monetization had been greatly toned down and I found it acceptable. Yes acceptable and although you might not find it so I still had definitely devoured quite a lot of the game and found it fun.
It's a hobby these games I play. I don't have to gamesplain or give excuses. I am simply having fun and I will support the games I find fun playing. You can complain about these games but we live in the real world where bills have to be paid and employees need to sustain their livelihood. So if a company uses a standard practice other game companies are using I am not going to string them up and label them evil. These developers don't deserve it when Blizzard is doing their song and dance without batting an eyelid and don't forget Diablo Immortal was far worse.
Yes I will compare one egregious practice to another lesser so because not doing so means you're not living in the real world where everything isn't absolute or black and white. It's mostly grey.
I also sincerely doubt their monetization will be the actual consideration players will give when deciding to not play the game. It will be the very last thing on their mind when more pressing things are usually at the forefront of a game like this as far as fun goes.
You are welcome to compare whatever you want and make yur own choices. But as I said a few times, it's the COMPANY that needs to answer questions about why they said one thing and did something else. It's not up to a customer to have to explain why this is bad.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
The fact that they priced the coins out of reach of the item is an acceptable practice since so many F2P games do it.
My kids used to try that. Explain how their bad thing was OK because other people did it. It didn't work for them any more than it does here.
Right or wrong does not depend on other people being the same or worse.
I agree but where Cheyane is right is here:
"In the world of so many bad practices this isn't going to matter because the magic word here is F2P."
That's where we have been for over a decade now.
Yet the base contention that something becomes acceptable because others do it is simply not one I will ever support. As I said, it's what my kids used to try and say. Because other people do bad things does not make it OK for you to do a bad thing.
The thing is we have changed from where we stood twenty years ago. We said "You Shall not Pass!" and MMORRGs just did anyway. The fact is we have not been unaffected by that change, no matter how much we think we are still the guy we once were.
I base this on the fact that every game now has practices that we would have found unacceptable way back then. From early access to unpolished launches, from F2P to gamblication and on and on. So we have had to adjust what "Evil" means. Some of us seem to have a broader acceptance of what is acceptable than others.
One of the things I think Cheyane is mistaken on, is that we have just found out one bad practice and the game is still in beta. So to compare that to a game like D4 which has come out is pushing it.
Its still a free to play game with a cosmetic only cash shop. Don't really care if they are using some bad practices to try and get more money out of folks wallets. Hell, half the stuff in your home and the clothes you wear are probably made by forced child labor in china yet here we are complaining about how much some pixels cost.
I don't agree with it either, but i will still play Palia and will probably still get those sweet Nikes.
One of my twin 9 yr old granddaughters got a pair of Nikes and proudly showed them off.
The other passed on buying a pair when her father told her they probably were made by people being paid poor wages, she concluded it wasn't right.
Out of the mouths of babes...
Even when we compromise our souls in the name of convenience, or even necessity, still doesn't make it right.
I purchase high end, but very obscure branded running shoes so no one knows who or how they are made.
Presumably hand crafted by all well paid shoe "technicians" considering their ridiculous cost.
Well, that or magic elves who love doing this kind of work.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I'm not reading all of this mess, but what I will say is that after having tried the game I get that they are trying to make money with a shop while offering up the game for free and yes I believe everyone needs to pay something for a game they put hours in to.. My problem is that the pricing is too high for a game that is not established. There is no value here or a reason to make me want to pay to support the game. Yes, while cosmetics are optional, I enjoy them and think these devs did a really good job in their designs making me in fact want to buy them, but the cost and then being slightly over the cost of a a price pack so you buy a $20 pack of coins or whatever, but you want ther Sky Captain outfit which would mean you need to buy another pack of coins to buy it is scummy. Also if the outfits were priced better I would be more apt to spend $20 knowing I could get a few outfits and not just one. For a AAA established game they can do this, but for a brand new game that wouldn't cost more than $30-$40 on Steam their pricing is not great for making people want to part with their money, especially if you dont even know if this game is going to be around in a year.
New World's costs are equally bad and why I did not buy anything there either. A new game needs to have realistic pricing instead of trying to match established games pricing. A $10 outfit does not seem unreasonable.
Comments
This thread was about a developer's promises (fair and honest monetization) vs what they are delivering, (clearly something that is anything but) not about players not being able to do math or make correct buying choices.
Burning down strawmen wherever they are found.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Can you count the real price of purchase? Absolutely. Will you actually bother to do it? Often not. Being able to simply read the price of item and know what it costs without any calculations is valuable in itself regardless of whether you'd be able to calculate its price or not.
Also, this is a bit off-topic, but do US really round the .99 cents always up to next dollar? I thought that was only done for physical cash, not when you're paying with a card. But I'm not from US.
This won't impact them negatively because people have gotten used to this. I certainly have that it no longer registers.
In the world of so many bad practices this isn't going to matter because the magic word here is F2P.
Right or wrong does not depend on other people being the same or worse.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
"In the world of so many bad practices this isn't going to matter because the magic word here is F2P."
That's where we have been for over a decade now.
As my Mom always said, "just because everyone else is jumping off a bridge doesn't mean you have to."
RIP Mom, been over 40 years since we last spoke, gone but never forgotten.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I am playing Diablo 4 and it was 70 Euros. No joke 70 Euros and then they put new cosmetics I saw on the battlenet page of my login rather nice pieces all for some more money. So pointing out bad practices when we have egregious examples of huge game companies like this is completely rubbish.
Blizzard can easily afford to give those for free and we are complaining about a small indie developer trying to survive on cosmetics. I think perspective is an important consideration and not simply sounding an alarm for everything you see because it fits a definition. Explaining the context and saying why it is acceptable is equally important which a lot of people in this thread understand. Just trying to sound smug about pointing out a bad practice is not enough. Explain why you think it is unacceptable. Or are you seriously trying to tell me that they deserve to be written off for this.
I make no exceptions for indie etc, they either have decent (ish) practices bearing in mind how bad they generally are now, or they don't. Also bear in mind that for any game the methods of sourcing revenue are being deliberately more obscured each passing year to make it nigh on impossible to accurately judge how much we will spend in a game.
This feeds into something we have discussed before, do we want to stay in gaming? Well when it comes to MMOs I have already made the decision that I am unlikely to play (or stay) unless I get a good guild, that does not have to be from day one mind you.
And for the record it does not fall on US to explain "the circumstances around each exception" but rather the COMPANY that promised one thing and apparently delivered another. Go ask THEM why they did it and we can weigh if it's an acceptable answer.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
This particular bad practice is quite intentional and meant to strongly encourage consumers to overspend so no company promising "fair" monetization can honestly consider doing it.
I've loathed it since first running into it in POE, then again and again.
Just because a game is "F2P, " made by an indie or a mega corp makes no difference in this regard.
It's sad really, gaming is the only industry I can think of where the producers have done so many bad practices forever, to the point consumers routinely apologize or "explain" their behaviors)
I think we need a new term for this, from now on I'm calling people out to stop when they start "gamesplaining" on such subjects.
Stockholm syndrome in action I think.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
------------
2024: 47 years on the Net.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
It's a hobby these games I play. I don't have to gamesplain or give excuses. I am simply having fun and I will support the games I find fun playing. You can complain about these games but we live in the real world where bills have to be paid and employees need to sustain their livelihood. So if a company uses a standard practice other game companies are using I am not going to string them up and label them evil. These developers don't deserve it when Blizzard is doing their song and dance without batting an eyelid and don't forget Diablo Immortal was far worse.
Yes I will compare one egregious practice to another lesser so because not doing so means you're not living in the real world where everything isn't absolute or black and white. It's mostly grey.
I also sincerely doubt their monetization will be the actual consideration players will give when deciding to not play the game. It will be the very last thing on their mind when more pressing things are usually at the forefront of a game like this as far as fun goes.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I base this on the fact that every game now has practices that we would have found unacceptable way back then. From early access to unpolished launches, from F2P to gamblication and on and on. So we have had to adjust what "Evil" means. Some of us seem to have a broader acceptance of what is acceptable than others.
One of the things I think Cheyane is mistaken on, is that we have just found out one bad practice and the game is still in beta. So to compare that to a game like D4 which has come out is pushing it.
The other passed on buying a pair when her father told her they probably were made by people being paid poor wages, she concluded it wasn't right.
Out of the mouths of babes...
Even when we compromise our souls in the name of convenience, or even necessity, still doesn't make it right.
I purchase high end, but very obscure branded running shoes so no one knows who or how they are made.
Presumably hand crafted by all well paid shoe "technicians" considering their ridiculous cost.
Well, that or magic elves who love doing this kind of work.
Whatever helps me sleep better at night.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
New World's costs are equally bad and why I did not buy anything there either. A new game needs to have realistic pricing instead of trying to match established games pricing. A $10 outfit does not seem unreasonable.