I honestly believe that PVP is the future of gaming.
Out comes the E-penis! PvP is good for some people, usually the same people who buy E-bay plat and Characters and can't be bothered to sink more than 10 minutes into the game. As you stated in your original post, you basically want a game where you can do everything in a day or two and then run around waving your E-penis and killing other virtual players to boost your ego. This may sound very rude, but I am not trying to be. I wholly object to people trying to ruin MMOs with this rationale that PvP is the only way to go. It most certainly is NOT. There are plenty of PvP games out there and as you mentioned there are games like WoW. WoW is a watered down MMO. It is, as someone put it very aptly in another thread "an mmo with training wheels". I'm all for these games if it keeps the PvP/E-Bay crowd away from the ones I play! JM2C S
This has got to be the single dumbest post i have ever witnessed on this forum. I swear to god I have seen misinformed but this just takes the cake. Are you seriously that stupid? or are you just trying to get a rise out of people by posting an opinion that tries to associate two groups that are generally polar opposites of each other? Hate to break it to you, but as a rule of thumb the PVP crowd is not the one usually associated with buying virtual goods. Of course the fact that you consider WoW a good pvp game pretty much should tell me that you know nothing about PVP gaming so I will just leave this post as it is.
First off, your post is "dumber" and secondly the point I was trying to make is that E-bay Plat/PvPers are all about the E-penis (That is a similarity they DO share). I never said anything about WoW being a good PvP game. Please learn how to read before you attempt to "school" me with your infinite wisdom.
PS : Incidentally, I have seen far more moronic posts than mine, you aren't looking hard enough!
The games NEED the time sinks or else you would end up with guildwars. sorry to say.
If they don't keep you...(I'm not gonna say challenged because there's no skill required in killing 999,999 murlocs.....) Occupied you won't stay and you won't pay.
First off, your post is "dumber" and secondly the point I was trying to make is that E-bay Plat/PvPers are all about the E-penis (That is a similarity they DO share). I never said anything about WoW being a good PvP game. Please learn how to read before you attempt to "school" me with your infinite wisdom.
PS : Incidentally, I have seen far more moronic posts than mine, you aren't looking hard enough!
I am going to assume you understand "dumber" is not a word since you stuck it in quote's.
The blanket stereotype is pretty much what I was referring to, Just because I participate in PVP does not mean I am only interested in swinging my E-penis. Quite frankly I and well as the majority of other PVPers I hang out with could flatly care less. We participate in PVP for the challenge of fighting a player, not an AI that is trivialized after one or 2 fights tops. To a one, all of us are challenge seekers we want to go against players that will push us to our limits. If that mean's losing from time to time so be it, noone will win all the time. It has absolutely nothing to do with a virtual dick waving contest, honestly I feel the only ones who think like that have an inferiority complex to begin with.
As to those buying stuff off ebay, While i disagree with the practice in general. Most are not buying coin off website as a means to say look at how much I have. Most are casual players who do not have the time to invest to gain the items they want so they instead purchase them with the one asset they do have.
On a different note you are correct I have seen more moronic post's. However do note the difference in moronic and Dumb. If I were to cite the post as being moronic, that also implies I am calling out the one who wrote the post for their lack of intelligence. In this case I simply pointed out that the blanket stereotyping and lumping of two polar opposite groups is dumb.
As To Wow.
There are plenty of PvP games out there and as you mentioned there are games like WoW. WoW is a watered down MMO. It is, as someone put it very aptly in another thread "an mmo with training wheels". I'm all for these games if it keeps the PvP/E-Bay crowd away from the ones I play!
Looks to me like you quite clearly labeled this as the pinnacle of a game for these two groups. While I wont argue the ebay part, you did in fact imply that anyone into PVP is probably into this game. If that is not what you meant to imply, do remember that Text only convey's so much and to be a little more specific next time.
As to you disagreeing with PVP being the future of MMO's, well while I sincerely doubt we will ever see PVP on the scale it was in early UO. I likewise sincerely doubt that MMO's only offering PVE content can continue to exist much longer. Honestly you can only hack and slash an AI so much before it all becomes the same repetative crap, the same grind just a different game with different graphics but the core will remain the same. If you have not developed the hunger for more, you will soon enough you just are not there yet.
Simple, it's not fun. What's the point of playing a game if you push one button and you win? It always means more when you have to work for something. Some games take it a little two far in each way, but if you can find a good mix of work & reward, then that is the perfect game.
Originally posted by fizzle32 Why do people knock instant gratification?Life is short, time is money. If I'm sitting in a doctor's office, I want my service as soon as possible, sooner rather than later.Yet alot of MMORPG companies *ahem SONY *ahem seem to think everybody's an unemployed college student. I think there is definitely a paradigm shift on the horizon for online gaming companies. They are gonna realize sooner or later that the formula "time spent = fun" or "time spent = challenge" are simply not valid.See it's okay to spend alot of time in a game if there is literally so much CONTENT that you need massive gobs of time to go through it. That's quality gaming time.But when these lame "Everquest" style games ARTIFICIALLY make sure that1) You can't do anything without grouping 2) It takes forever to advance 3) Equipment drops are static and rare, leading to people spending 15+ hours camping a piece of armorThat's what I consider ARTIFICIAL timesinks. You're not spending that time perusing the game's CONTENT, you're STUCK at the SAME content either waiting for a group, killing 5 million frogloks, or killing the same monster over and over and over waiting for it to drop something you want.It's companies like SOE/Verant that have singlehandedly turned a generation of gamers into people that will put up with infinite amounts of pain and suffering just to experience what they are hoodwinked into believing is a "mature role playing experience."
Gotta disagree. As in life, the things that are worth doing tend to be those that we can take pride in having done, things that require challenges. Do you brag about having walked down the street, or having climbed the Matterhorn? Then again, those looking for "instant gratification" would never climb the Matterhorn in the first place.
That said, certain things I'd agree with, namely artificial strictures in a gameworld that requires a certain style of play (grouping, not grouping, etc.). I'd rather the gamemakers create the environment and let the players figure out what's best done individually or what would be better done by grouping. It's the "hm, those castle gates are well-guarded. Might need to get a party together for this; or, I might scout out the castle walls and find a way to sneak in" syndrome. Both are alternative for getting into the castle -- and both are reactions to the environmental conditions. If this were EQ2, there wouldn't be any other alternative for gaining entry, and the guards would all be artificially "grouped".
Anyway. Overall, I'd say, if you want instant gratification, go play GuildWars or WoW. Some of us take more pride in figuring out things that require a little thought and a little effort to achieve than just having stuff handed to us.
Originally posted by brostyn Because instant gratification is just that. 1 hour later you're not satisfied any longer. These guys are in business to keep you there for a long time.
And quite frankly I want an MMORPG to be a place where I will hang for a long time.
Aye good for you laser---I think everyone wants that. However, if games are made well enough, the difficulty or the grind wont be the only things keeping you playing the game for a long time.
If the game is FUN enough people wont make leveling bots and such because it will take away from the FUN of the game. For instance, although not a mmorpg, in Morrowind there would be no reason whatsoever to have a bot to do anything. That would take away from the playing and fun of the game.
Beleive it or not, many of the upcoming game companies are trying to make the games more enjoyable, less grind and more fun.
Anyway. Overall, I'd say, if you want instant gratification, go play GuildWars or WoW. Some of us take more pride in figuring out things that require a little thought and a little effort to achieve than just having stuff handed to us.
Spyder-Have you played WoW or Guildwars? Im doubting you have. For starters the LACK of a grind in wow is over rated. Shadowbane was a quick leveling game but WoW certainly isnt. Getting a epic weapon in WoW can be a long and difficult process as well.
And on to Guildwars, that game isnt as much instant gratifacation as you would think it would be. Yes there are pvp charachters that are already level 20 but the abilitys and spells they give you are by no means leet. Making money in GW is not easy unless you purchase it with real money. So many people I know doing farming runs to make coin to buy nice armor and weapons.
Dont get me wrong, Im not a fanboi of either of these games but the idea that everything in wow and gw is just handed to you "instant gratifacation like" is simply untrue.
Im not all for instant gratification either BUT if something is hard or difficult to get, the process should at least be fun, involving, challenging and FUN---not repetitive and played out.
Originally posted by logangregor Anyway. Overall, I'd say, if you want instant gratification, go play GuildWars or WoW. Some of us take more pride in figuring out things that require a little thought and a little effort to achieve than just having stuff handed to us. Spyder-Have you played WoW or Guildwars? Im doubting you have. For starters the LACK of a grind in wow is over rated. Shadowbane was a quick leveling game but WoW certainly isnt. Getting a epic weapon in WoW can be a long and difficult process as well. And on to Guildwars, that game isnt as much instant gratifacation as you would think it would be. Yes there are pvp charachters that are already level 20 but the abilitys and spells they give you are by no means leet. Making money in GW is not easy unless you purchase it with real money. So many people I know doing farming runs to make coin to buy nice armor and weapons. Dont get me wrong, Im not a fanboi of either of these games but the idea that everything in wow and gw is just handed to you "instant gratifacation like" is simply untrue.
Im not all for instant gratification either BUT if something is hard or difficult to get, the process should at least be fun, involving, challenging and FUN---not repetitive and played out.
Actually, I played WoW from Beta through release until around May. Several level 60s, far too many alternative characters. Kept restarting hoping to find things i"d missed the first couple times around. WoW is an apallingly fast levelling game (you are about the first person I have ever heard say WoW isn't a fast levelling game, on these forums or any other). Probably because I come into WoW after years in MUDs and then UO, EQ1, AC1, and far too many others -- experience in those others makes WoW childishly simple. Gods, if you take a grind approach to WoW, you'll find the levels flying so fast that it's just incredible. There's no grind in WoW -- which means that, if you kill to gain levels, you do so very very fast. And if you tie it in with skinning, you'll be harvesting a FORTUNE quickly (loved the wolves and spiders in Duskwood for driving money from skinning and XP). There's nothing, nothing, in WoW that's a challenge. RPG side? Mindless quests that never change, that only go from "kill x wolves" to "kill x DIRE wolves" to "find my watch and bring it back to me" to "find my BIG watch and bring it back to me". There were a few notable quests, notable for their depth of story, like the Night Elf on the pier who wants you to release his long-dead (but Undead) wife, which culminates in a great animated finale for you to watch. But for each of the well thought-out ones, like that, there are the other 2000 that aren't. Hell, I was using the stupid so-called "death penalty" as a means of crossing maps faster -- like in the Wetlands. First time that's happened -- first time a "death penalty" was such little cost that it became a tactic to use it. So, before you go throwing about assumptions ("I'm doubting you have"), you might want to ask instead.
And yep, I wasted my money to buy Guildwars. Hoping for a PvP experience as good as Shadowbane or Dark Ages of Camelot. Well, forget it. DAoC's realm-versus-realm blows it away. And at least Shadowbane required people to actually do things to PvP -- should have avoided Guildwars the moment I read about the stupid "auto-level, so you can go straight into the arena and PvP, auto-level with no effort at all to the max level in an instant!" and "we've a huge community -- as long as you don't leave the cities, since we instance the whole world, and you won't run into another soul forever save those you came with". Some folks may like Guildwars, I loathed it (what the hell is with their stupid "ooh, look, a 5' rise in the ground, you'll have to go around the tiny hill to get to the cave 15' away, 'cause we didn't build a dynamic environment and you'll have to follow the paths we laid out for you" anyway). Didn't loathe WoW -- it's a great entry-level MMORPG, an introductory to the genre, but not something like EQ1 or UO or AC1 that I'd still be playing years from now. As for roleplaying elements, even the developers of GW don't claim to have made a deep RPG -- with good reason.
WoW is the Walt Disney World of MMORPGs -- kiddy-lite. No comparison to GuildWars, if you like it, great, lots of us don't.
Originally posted by spydermr2 WoW is the Walt Disney World of MMORPGs -- kiddy-lite. No comparison to GuildWars, if you like it, great, lots of us don't.
Becuase most of us here are hardcore MMORPG players with the time and the drive to invest days and months into.
Guild Wars early on was titled as a MMORPG, for people that don't like MMORPGs, and that hardcore gamers won't enjoy themselves.
Originally posted by fizzle32 Why do people knock instant gratification?Life is short, time is money. If I'm sitting in a doctor's office, I want my service as soon as possible, sooner rather than later.
The fact alone that you ask the question seems scary to me. Have you ever worked in your life ? I mean, really worked ? Raised a family ? Achieved a project ? I don't want to make assumptions, so I will stop here, but please...
If I am sitting in a doctor's office, I want the best service to be delivered. If that means that I have to wait, because the best service is delivered overall, then I wait, like everyone else, and leave the cabinet satisfied, like everyone else.
1 does not prevent the other...but it require thinking from the designers.
See, a gratification to be worthwhile must mean something, somewhere. If you only get a +1 and everyone can get a +2000, there is no point in even earning +2 unless you think to go all the way to +2000...however if that +1 is the best anyone can get to hunt in a particuliar dungeon, now we are talking, it mean something much more valuable...and the +2 will be for another dungeon, a new limit...
But cry babies want their +2000 to affect all the world and cry at the mere word CAP. I would not listen to cry babies myself and enforce a different cap on every different area and zone...but that is just me.
See, IMO, you needs to give more gratification that mean something (reaching a particuliar TOP), even if it mean slightly dilluding the latest gratifications since they dont work well in prior areas. In fact, IMO only some particuliar items, earn inside the particuliar zone, should slightly goes over the CAP...so they would be better then items earns outside...no matter how good or bad they are.
So in my example, the best loot someone could have in Crushbone would be Orc Trainer + Emperor Crushbone loot...in 99% of the game it would be quite weak if not useless gear, but in Crushbone, it is prime! It would need a more friendly interface, to avoid switching gear, so it is done automatically...maybe you could have 1 character sheet per dungeon, and you select what you equip for every dungeon...for the weight considerations, outside of the dungeon it would be whatever is the heaviest set...inside the dungeon it would be the local gear. (it would require HUGE computers on the server side, to store and access all this data, but current technology allow it)
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Comments
Out comes the E-penis! PvP is good for some people, usually the same people who buy E-bay plat and Characters and can't be bothered to sink more than 10 minutes into the game. As you stated in your original post, you basically want a game where you can do everything in a day or two and then run around waving your E-penis and killing other virtual players to boost your ego.
This may sound very rude, but I am not trying to be. I wholly object to people trying to ruin MMOs with this rationale that PvP is the only way to go. It most certainly is NOT. There are plenty of PvP games out there and as you mentioned there are games like WoW. WoW is a watered down MMO. It is, as someone put it very aptly in another thread "an mmo with training wheels". I'm all for these games if it keeps the PvP/E-Bay crowd away from the ones I play!
JM2C
S
This has got to be the single dumbest post i have ever witnessed on this forum. I swear to god I have seen misinformed but this just takes the cake. Are you seriously that stupid? or are you just trying to get a rise out of people by posting an opinion that tries to associate two groups that are generally polar opposites of each other? Hate to break it to you, but as a rule of thumb the PVP crowd is not the one usually associated with buying virtual goods. Of course the fact that you consider WoW a good pvp game pretty much should tell me that you know nothing about PVP gaming so I will just leave this post as it is.
First off, your post is "dumber"
and secondly the point I was trying to make is that E-bay Plat/PvPers are all about the E-penis (That is a similarity they DO share). I never said anything about WoW being a good PvP game. Please learn how to read before you attempt to "school" me with your infinite wisdom.
PS : Incidentally, I have seen far more moronic posts than mine, you aren't looking hard enough!
The games NEED the time sinks or else you would end up with guildwars. sorry to say.
If they don't keep you...(I'm not gonna say challenged because there's no skill required in killing 999,999 murlocs.....) Occupied you won't stay and you won't pay.
I am going to assume you understand "dumber" is not a word since you stuck it in quote's.
The blanket stereotype is pretty much what I was referring to, Just because I participate in PVP does not mean I am only interested in swinging my E-penis. Quite frankly I and well as the majority of other PVPers I hang out with could flatly care less. We participate in PVP for the challenge of fighting a player, not an AI that is trivialized after one or 2 fights tops. To a one, all of us are challenge seekers we want to go against players that will push us to our limits. If that mean's losing from time to time so be it, noone will win all the time. It has absolutely nothing to do with a virtual dick waving contest, honestly I feel the only ones who think like that have an inferiority complex to begin with.
As to those buying stuff off ebay, While i disagree with the practice in general. Most are not buying coin off website as a means to say look at how much I have. Most are casual players who do not have the time to invest to gain the items they want so they instead purchase them with the one asset they do have.
On a different note you are correct I have seen more moronic post's. However do note the difference in moronic and Dumb. If I were to cite the post as being moronic, that also implies I am calling out the one who wrote the post for their lack of intelligence. In this case I simply pointed out that the blanket stereotyping and lumping of two polar opposite groups is dumb.
As To Wow.
There are plenty of PvP games out there and as you mentioned there are games like WoW. WoW is a watered down MMO. It is, as someone put it very aptly in another thread "an mmo with training wheels". I'm all for these games if it keeps the PvP/E-Bay crowd away from the ones I play!
Looks to me like you quite clearly labeled this as the pinnacle of a game for these two groups. While I wont argue the ebay part, you did in fact imply that anyone into PVP is probably into this game. If that is not what you meant to imply, do remember that Text only convey's so much and to be a little more specific next time.
As to you disagreeing with PVP being the future of MMO's, well while I sincerely doubt we will ever see PVP on the scale it was in early UO. I likewise sincerely doubt that MMO's only offering PVE content can continue to exist much longer. Honestly you can only hack and slash an AI so much before it all becomes the same repetative crap, the same grind just a different game with different graphics but the core will remain the same. If you have not developed the hunger for more, you will soon enough you just are not there yet.
Simple, it's not fun. What's the point of playing a game if you push one button and you win? It always means more when you have to work for something. Some games take it a little two far in each way, but if you can find a good mix of work & reward, then that is the perfect game.
member of imminst.org
Gotta disagree. As in life, the things that are worth doing tend to be those that we can take pride in having done, things that require challenges. Do you brag about having walked down the street, or having climbed the Matterhorn? Then again, those looking for "instant gratification" would never climb the Matterhorn in the first place.
That said, certain things I'd agree with, namely artificial strictures in a gameworld that requires a certain style of play (grouping, not grouping, etc.). I'd rather the gamemakers create the environment and let the players figure out what's best done individually or what would be better done by grouping. It's the "hm, those castle gates are well-guarded. Might need to get a party together for this; or, I might scout out the castle walls and find a way to sneak in" syndrome. Both are alternative for getting into the castle -- and both are reactions to the environmental conditions. If this were EQ2, there wouldn't be any other alternative for gaining entry, and the guards would all be artificially "grouped".
Anyway. Overall, I'd say, if you want instant gratification, go play GuildWars or WoW. Some of us take more pride in figuring out things that require a little thought and a little effort to achieve than just having stuff handed to us.
Aye good for you laser---I think everyone wants that. However, if games are made well enough, the difficulty or the grind wont be the only things keeping you playing the game for a long time.
If the game is FUN enough people wont make leveling bots and such because it will take away from the FUN of the game. For instance, although not a mmorpg, in Morrowind there would be no reason whatsoever to have a bot to do anything. That would take away from the playing and fun of the game.
Beleive it or not, many of the upcoming game companies are trying to make the games more enjoyable, less grind and more fun.
Spyder-Have you played WoW or Guildwars? Im doubting you have. For starters the LACK of a grind in wow is over rated. Shadowbane was a quick leveling game but WoW certainly isnt. Getting a epic weapon in WoW can be a long and difficult process as well.
And on to Guildwars, that game isnt as much instant gratifacation as you would think it would be. Yes there are pvp charachters that are already level 20 but the abilitys and spells they give you are by no means leet. Making money in GW is not easy unless you purchase it with real money. So many people I know doing farming runs to make coin to buy nice armor and weapons.
Dont get me wrong, Im not a fanboi of either of these games but the idea that everything in wow and gw is just handed to you "instant gratifacation like" is simply untrue.
Im not all for instant gratification either BUT if something is hard or difficult to get, the process should at least be fun, involving, challenging and FUN---not repetitive and played out.
Actually, I played WoW from Beta through release until around May. Several level 60s, far too many alternative characters. Kept restarting hoping to find things i"d missed the first couple times around. WoW is an apallingly fast levelling game (you are about the first person I have ever heard say WoW isn't a fast levelling game, on these forums or any other). Probably because I come into WoW after years in MUDs and then UO, EQ1, AC1, and far too many others -- experience in those others makes WoW childishly simple. Gods, if you take a grind approach to WoW, you'll find the levels flying so fast that it's just incredible. There's no grind in WoW -- which means that, if you kill to gain levels, you do so very very fast. And if you tie it in with skinning, you'll be harvesting a FORTUNE quickly (loved the wolves and spiders in Duskwood for driving money from skinning and XP). There's nothing, nothing, in WoW that's a challenge. RPG side? Mindless quests that never change, that only go from "kill x wolves" to "kill x DIRE wolves" to "find my watch and bring it back to me" to "find my BIG watch and bring it back to me". There were a few notable quests, notable for their depth of story, like the Night Elf on the pier who wants you to release his long-dead (but Undead) wife, which culminates in a great animated finale for you to watch. But for each of the well thought-out ones, like that, there are the other 2000 that aren't. Hell, I was using the stupid so-called "death penalty" as a means of crossing maps faster -- like in the Wetlands. First time that's happened -- first time a "death penalty" was such little cost that it became a tactic to use it. So, before you go throwing about assumptions ("I'm doubting you have"), you might want to ask instead.
And yep, I wasted my money to buy Guildwars. Hoping for a PvP experience as good as Shadowbane or Dark Ages of Camelot. Well, forget it. DAoC's realm-versus-realm blows it away. And at least Shadowbane required people to actually do things to PvP -- should have avoided Guildwars the moment I read about the stupid "auto-level, so you can go straight into the arena and PvP, auto-level with no effort at all to the max level in an instant!" and "we've a huge community -- as long as you don't leave the cities, since we instance the whole world, and you won't run into another soul forever save those you came with". Some folks may like Guildwars, I loathed it (what the hell is with their stupid "ooh, look, a 5' rise in the ground, you'll have to go around the tiny hill to get to the cave 15' away, 'cause we didn't build a dynamic environment and you'll have to follow the paths we laid out for you" anyway). Didn't loathe WoW -- it's a great entry-level MMORPG, an introductory to the genre, but not something like EQ1 or UO or AC1 that I'd still be playing years from now. As for roleplaying elements, even the developers of GW don't claim to have made a deep RPG -- with good reason.
WoW is the Walt Disney World of MMORPGs -- kiddy-lite. No comparison to GuildWars, if you like it, great, lots of us don't.
Becuase most of us here are hardcore MMORPG players with the time and the drive to invest days and months into.
Guild Wars early on was titled as a MMORPG, for people that don't like MMORPGs, and that hardcore gamers won't enjoy themselves.
im a hardcore console gamer does that matter?
mhttp://www.mmorpg.com/discussion.cfm/setstart/51/loadthread/29442/loadforum/446/loadclass/145
The fact alone that you ask the question seems scary to me. Have you ever worked in your life ? I mean, really worked ? Raised a family ? Achieved a project ? I don't want to make assumptions, so I will stop here, but please...
If I am sitting in a doctor's office, I want the best service to be delivered. If that means that I have to wait, because the best service is delivered overall, then I wait, like everyone else, and leave the cabinet satisfied, like everyone else.
1 does not prevent the other...but it require thinking from the designers.
See, a gratification to be worthwhile must mean something, somewhere. If you only get a +1 and everyone can get a +2000, there is no point in even earning +2 unless you think to go all the way to +2000...however if that +1 is the best anyone can get to hunt in a particuliar dungeon, now we are talking, it mean something much more valuable...and the +2 will be for another dungeon, a new limit...
But cry babies want their +2000 to affect all the world and cry at the mere word CAP. I would not listen to cry babies myself and enforce a different cap on every different area and zone...but that is just me.
See, IMO, you needs to give more gratification that mean something (reaching a particuliar TOP), even if it mean slightly dilluding the latest gratifications since they dont work well in prior areas. In fact, IMO only some particuliar items, earn inside the particuliar zone, should slightly goes over the CAP...so they would be better then items earns outside...no matter how good or bad they are.
So in my example, the best loot someone could have in Crushbone would be Orc Trainer + Emperor Crushbone loot...in 99% of the game it would be quite weak if not useless gear, but in Crushbone, it is prime! It would need a more friendly interface, to avoid switching gear, so it is done automatically...maybe you could have 1 character sheet per dungeon, and you select what you equip for every dungeon...for the weight considerations, outside of the dungeon it would be whatever is the heaviest set...inside the dungeon it would be the local gear. (it would require HUGE computers on the server side, to store and access all this data, but current technology allow it)
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren