Catch Up Design for Vertical Progression (Yay or nay?)

Eronakis

As an mmorpg community who enjoy vertical progression and vertical design, how do you feel about catch up mechanics for players or alts? Blizzard is notorious to make it easier for "new" or alt characters to catch up before next release. As a designer, I can see both sides of the coin.

I think my biggest gripe is that it devalues your time for those who played the game when first released. Anything you earned during that time as a player is eroded when new players can get the same item or lower cost of something or xp boosts. On the other side of the coin, it does help alt play easier and can help new players catch up, but it does devalue their experience. 

I think there are better ways to implement some sort of catch up mechanics than "making the game" easier. One direction to help alt player is by getting a character to max level, then a minor Xp boost for the next alt you choose gets it to level. Perhaps after that alt reaches max level, the next alt. That way it encourages players to experience the game.

What are your thoughts? Should designers implement catch up gameplay for newer players and/or alt play?

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

The_Korrigan

Catchup based on free xp boosting and easier gearing for late comers ? Yeah.
Catchup from the cash shop ? No.

Ralphie2449

I am not a virgin whose self worth depends on being ahead of everyone because I played from day 1 of launch all day so yes, catch up mechanics are vital.

Catch up mechanics were created to solve a PROBLEM just like many other quality of life inventions that some hardcore social types complain about today.

The aforementioned people refuse to see that as a problem hence why they dont like the idea of catch up mechanics.

You clearly dont value your time if you are only playing a FICTIONAL VIDEO GAME collecting pixels, so the "its devaluing my time" argument is silly, video games are meant to be about fun, enjoyment.
If you are only playing them as a time investment and you cant enjoy them without that aspect, that's your issue.

I was playing WoW from WoD up to the last patch of shadowlands, and ditched it once it became an even worse raidlogging simulator, when a game stops being fun, you are not meant to keep playing cuz "you ve invested time/money in it"

Catch up mechanics are important cuz people need to have a way to come back and get geared quickly to the appropriate patch level, then the current patch grind starts. Without it people will likely not bother grinding old stuff, and people who might do that will also have a hard time cuz the remaining players arent doing old stuff.

The point of vertical progression is that it never truly ends with each patch and xpac introducing further grind, the moment it becomes horizontal many of us get bored cuz we are here to enjoy the feeling of progression by farming stuff while watching contrapoint videos on youtube

Xiaoki

WoWs catch up mechanics help new players and returning players play with the people that have been playing every day.

So, when new and returning players spend the time and effort to level, gear up and learn the dungeons they aren't wasting their time and therefore don't quit.

In themepark MMOs catch up mechanics are required.

cameltosis

In a general sense im against catchup mechanics. To me, if your game needs catchup mechanics, it means you designed it badly in the first place and so it's a warning sign to me that I probably won't like the game.

That said, catchup mechanics have never affected me personally, so I don't care. If I'm playing an MMORPG, then im playing it from launch, I'll never join late. So, I never use the mechanics myself. As for the people who do join the game late? Also don't care. Each expansion tends to make the game worse for me, so by the time the game needs catchup mechanics, the streamlining / dumbing down has usually driven me away from the game anway, so i don't end up playing with the newly joined people.

Amaranthar

cameltosis said:

In a general sense im against catchup mechanics. To me, if your game needs catchup mechanics, it means you designed it badly in the first place and so it's a warning sign to me that I probably won't like the game.

That said, catchup mechanics have never affected me personally, so I don't care. If I'm playing an MMORPG, then im playing it from launch, I'll never join late. So, I never use the mechanics myself. As for the people who do join the game late? Also don't care. Each expansion tends to make the game worse for me, so by the time the game needs catchup mechanics, the streamlining / dumbing down has usually driven me away from the game anway, so i don't end up playing with the newly joined people.

I agree that "catchup mechanics" reveal a problem. 

In my opinion, I think that a character's identity is very important to most players. (I think this is largely subconscious to most.) 
That's where the good stuff lies. The memories, the progression, the accomplishments, even though these seem unimportant, they are. 
There's a basic form of pride in that. It's not just a character, it's "My Character." 

Catchup mechanics is a shortcut, and it cuts out a large part of that identity, the experience of building up said character is cut short. The accomplishments lose meaning. The gains feel cheated. 

That's the result.
The cause should be obvious. 

Kyleran

The_Korrigan said:

Catchup based on free xp boosting and easier gearing for late comers ? Yeah.
Catchup from the cash shop ? No.

It's almost as if you don't understand how the game industry works these days.

Kyleran

Ralphie2449 said:

The point of vertical progression is that it never truly ends with each patch and xpac introducing further grind, 

Making it ultimately pointless, yes? I first came to understand this when WoWs BC came out but it took quite a few more years to realize theme park gear grinders  are not game play I enjoy.

Ten years in EVE helped me to understand one does not need to "catch up" to have fun, well assuming the game has a good balance of vertical and horizontal progression which no theme park ever has or likely will.

Someday, if you are lucky you too will learn to stop chasing rainbows.

Ungood

Well, I have a lot of mixed feelings on this one

I understand why the mechanic exists, and that is mainly because to keep MMO's and their player base active, there is this demand to keep adding more to the game. Often in the form of higher levels, bigger, badder boss mobs, and more ludicrous loot

This often take the name of "Power Creep"

The thing about this however, is that over time the players that were struggling to get that +1, now see a noob with a +50, after playing for literally nothing, makes them feel slighted.

Not going to lie, I feel that. That is in my mind the same as seeing someone walk into my job after I have been there for a year, getting paid as much if not more for the same position. No one likes that.

So I totally respect that feeling in gaming where these "catch-up" mechanics are not well received.

But like others, I realize that this is a result in a flaw in the design of the game itself, often a fault of the Old School systems and mindset

I personally burned out of EQ due to the continual increase of levels, so I will say, I am not a fan of that mechanic directly

A lot of more modren MMO's have been working out systems to remove this kind of flaw in it's entirety, and to that venture of course I am going to mention GW2

Anet took the stand they would not increase levels, the cap is 80, and to their credit, has remained such since launch

They have added power creep in the form of Specific Kinds of Gear, Elite Specs, Masteries, etc. But a lot of that is mostly horizontal.

It is currently so easy to make it to cap, that It's an ongoing joke in GW2 these days that making it to 80th the first time simply means you completed the tutorial, and now is when  the real game starts.

Thus the player base was amazingly apathetic to the introduction of the 80th level boots you can buy in the store

Literally the most basic thing a player can do in GW2 is make level cap.

At this late in the game, players will have dozens of level 80th characters, some they leveled doing stuff, a lot they leveled in the bank. Not to mention, in GW2, every "Level" you earn past Cap (Which also includes masteries) rewards an item called a spirit shard, which are used in crafting, and even using them, and players will still have literally thousands upon thousands of these in their bank, as testament to how many levels they really have earned playing the game

The Down Leveling Mechanic in GW2, means that you don't need to rush your friends to catch up to you either, you can go run with them as they explore and learn the game. No need to make an alt, or any concession at all, they log in and you go meet them with your main, and you play together, it's that simple.

This IMHO, was a great move to eliminate any "catch-up" stress in the game

So MMO's devs have been looking into ways to eliminate this design flaw with MMO's

As for MMO's like WoW, where this is a prevalent problems, I really have no idea what to tell you, it's a problem caused by the inherent design and development of the game.

Truth be told, I think they are inherently bad, because rushing a player to the top, well first off, it rushes them up there, so they don't really get that time to learn the game, this also results in them bypassing a lot of content, that may or may not be really fun and enjoyable, it also puts them in a position where even if they are the same character level or gear score as those around them, they do not have that vastness of game knowledge that normally would come with those levels and that gear

While this might not be a problem for a serious hardcore player that has the skills to Rockstar the raids and whatever content that may come by skill and pure awesomesauce, this is a really bad place for a casual that needs all the help they can get but is met with resentment or animosity.

I do not have a solution for the games that painted themselves into this corner, but I am quite happy to see other game companies exploring solutions to this very problem. 

Theocritus

Kyleran said:

The_Korrigan said:

Catchup based on free xp boosting and easier gearing for late comers ? Yeah.
Catchup from the cash shop ? No.

It's almost as if you don't understand how the game industry works these days.

In these times most people would rather pay than play, that is for sure. Some people have alot of time, some have alot of money...The game companies are just trying to work both corners.

Ralphie2449

Kyleran said:

Ralphie2449 said:

The point of vertical progression is that it never truly ends with each patch and xpac introducing further grind, 

Making it ultimately pointless, yes?

No, because unlike people whose self worth comes from video game achievements, it is about the enjoyment and feeling of progression, it is about the journey, not the ending.

That is why mmos are great, because the journey never ends.

Something that does not exist in games like GW2, which even though Charr are hot af and I would love to be able to enjoy the game, the lack of power progression makes it very boring very fast.

I am here to progress in power and witness countless changes happen over the years, I am not into mmos for a static experience. Which is another aspect I find great, all the system redesigns and changes, it keeps the game feeling fresh, meanwhile you have gamers TM raging cuz the crutch they abused for 6 months got finally nerfed to the ground xD

kitarad

Ralphie2449 said:

Kyleran said:

Ralphie2449 said:

The point of vertical progression is that it never truly ends with each patch and xpac introducing further grind, 

Making it ultimately pointless, yes?

No, because unlike people whose self worth comes from video game achievements, it is about the enjoyment and feeling of progression, it is about the journey, not the ending.

That is why mmos are great, because the journey never ends.

Something that does not exist in games like GW2, which even though Charr are hot af and I would love to be able to enjoy the game, the lack of power progression makes it very boring very fast.

I am here to progress in power and witness countless changes happen over the years, I am not into mmos for a static experience. Which is another aspect I find great, all the system redesigns and changes, it keeps the game feeling fresh, meanwhile you have gamers TM raging cuz the crutch they abused for 6 months got finally nerfed to the ground xD

What is your problem seriously ? Does every one of your responses have to be this veiled insult at the gaming mentality where people enjoy savouring their well earned achievements for the sheer fun of it instead of it being connected to self worth. Your previous threads on this forum and your current responses point to a definite inferiority complex you're nurturing against gamers that truly enjoy their successes that they considered as hard worn. 

You can make your points without constantly sounding like a broken record and thereby diminishing much of the relevancy and coming across as a bitter player.

With that out of the way, I have stopped playing MMORPGs for raiding for years now. I just don't have the time any more to devote to raiding because it takes me away from other games and I enjoy the journey more than the end game. I still play Everquest 1 and 2 and I simply love slowly levelling and gaining power. It's the exploration and crafting in games that I enjoy. I also enjoy tackling content at my pace when the game allows it.

I am not interested in catch up since the end game is of no interest to me. I've also come to generally eschew large raids because of guild politics.

Scot

I think both vertical and horizontal progression are needed and as long as those who can't catch up have plenty to do what is the issue? I do think alts need to have a speedier ascent but that's it, there are always new players climbing the ladder, but as long as they have plenty to do that's fine. I am going to sound so corny now, it should be a journey not a race.

Ralphie2449

kitarad said:

What is your problem seriously ? Does every one of your responses have to be this veiled insult at the gaming mentality where people enjoy savouring their well earned achievements for the sheer fun

Because some people try to avoid understanding why they do things or the reason behind their actions in order to avoid facing the ugly truth about themselves.

MMO players honestly are not the most mentally healthy individuals and that can be seen by many popular examples:

-Players so literally addicted to a game they will hate it, trash it, call it a terrible experience yet keep playing for years on end while it makes them unhappy and miserable, just check any big mmo forum

-Players whose self worth is literally based on having things others dont, which is where it starts influence game design where devs treat raiders as a special class, where cool things like Visions of Nzoth in WoW or Torghast are gutted and nerfed in terms of rewards cuz their special class cried that they had to do content other than raidlog.

-And let's not forget, players who are so invested that devs making changes to the game sends them into a crazy maniac rage to the point of insulting devs on social media and sending them death threats cuz they dared nerf their crutch broken build.

There's always people in groups that arent that healthy, but hardcore mmo players definitely have a far higher % of those around and the devs pandering to such mentally unhealthy crowds by designing games around them isnt making things better.

Thankfully, more and more mmos are moving away from that design ideology and going towards a fair equal system where everyone can progress to max gear with their own choice of content rather than forcing group content on everyone's throat, and that design direction change absolutely has enraged those people who believe they are special and should receive all the cool things, talk about entitlement xD

Amaranthar

Ungood said:

Well, I have a lot of mixed feelings on this one

I understand why the mechanic exists, and that is mainly because to keep MMO's and their player base active, there is this demand to keep adding more to the game. Often in the form of higher levels, bigger, badder boss mobs, and more ludicrous loot

This often take the name of "Power Creep"

The thing about this however, is that over time the players that were struggling to get that +1, now see a noob with a +50, after playing for literally nothing, makes them feel slighted.

Not going to lie, I feel that. That is in my mind the same as seeing someone walk into my job after I have been there for a year, getting paid as much if not more for the same position. No one likes that.

So I totally respect that feeling in gaming where these "catch-up" mechanics are not well received.

But like others, I realize that this is a result in a flaw in the design of the game itself, often a fault of the Old School systems and mindset

I personally burned out of EQ due to the continual increase of levels, so I will say, I am not a fan of that mechanic directly

A lot of more modren MMO's have been working out systems to remove this kind of flaw in it's entirety, and to that venture of course I am going to mention GW2

Anet took the stand they would not increase levels, the cap is 80, and to their credit, has remained such since launch

They have added power creep in the form of Specific Kinds of Gear, Elite Specs, Masteries, etc. But a lot of that is mostly horizontal.

It is currently so easy to make it to cap, that It's an ongoing joke in GW2 these days that making it to 80th the first time simply means you completed the tutorial, and now is when  the real game starts.

Thus the player base was amazingly apathetic to the introduction of the 80th level boots you can buy in the store

Literally the most basic thing a player can do in GW2 is make level cap.

At this late in the game, players will have dozens of level 80th characters, some they leveled doing stuff, a lot they leveled in the bank. Not to mention, in GW2, every "Level" you earn past Cap (Which also includes masteries) rewards an item called a spirit shard, which are used in crafting, and even using them, and players will still have literally thousands upon thousands of these in their bank, as testament to how many levels they really have earned playing the game

The Down Leveling Mechanic in GW2, means that you don't need to rush your friends to catch up to you either, you can go run with them as they explore and learn the game. No need to make an alt, or any concession at all, they log in and you go meet them with your main, and you play together, it's that simple.

This IMHO, was a great move to eliminate any "catch-up" stress in the game

So MMO's devs have been looking into ways to eliminate this design flaw with MMO's

As for MMO's like WoW, where this is a prevalent problems, I really have no idea what to tell you, it's a problem caused by the inherent design and development of the game.

Truth be told, I think they are inherently bad, because rushing a player to the top, well first off, it rushes them up there, so they don't really get that time to learn the game, this also results in them bypassing a lot of content, that may or may not be really fun and enjoyable, it also puts them in a position where even if they are the same character level or gear score as those around them, they do not have that vastness of game knowledge that normally would come with those levels and that gear

While this might not be a problem for a serious hardcore player that has the skills to Rockstar the raids and whatever content that may come by skill and pure awesomesauce, this is a really bad place for a casual that needs all the help they can get but is met with resentment or animosity.

I do not have a solution for the games that painted themselves into this corner, but I am quite happy to see other game companies exploring solutions to this very problem. 

"I do not have a solution for the games that painted themselves into this corner, but I am quite happy to see other game companies exploring solutions to this very problem. "

Yeah, just have your Snickers Potions handy. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4WorCP_D9s 

Wargfoot

Vertical progression is a really nice way to create a broken game full of stupid problems.

Scot

Ralphie2449 said:

Because some people try to avoid understanding why they do things or the reason behind their actions in order to avoid facing the ugly truth about themselves.

MMO players honestly are not the most mentally healthy individuals and that can be seen by many popular examples:

-Players so literally addicted to a game they will hate it, trash it, call it a terrible experience yet keep playing for years on end while it makes them unhappy and miserable, just check any big mmo forum

-Players whose self worth is literally based on having things others dont, which is where it starts influence game design where devs treat raiders as a special class, where cool things like Visions of Nzoth in WoW or Torghast are gutted and nerfed in terms of rewards cuz their special class cried that they had to do content other than raidlog.

-And let's not forget, players who are so invested that devs making changes to the game sends them into a crazy maniac rage to the point of insulting devs on social media and sending them death threats cuz they dared nerf their crutch broken build.

There's always people in groups that arent that healthy, but hardcore mmo players definitely have a far higher % of those around and the devs pandering to such mentally unhealthy crowds by designing games around them isnt making things better.

Thankfully, more and more mmos are moving away from that design ideology and going towards a fair equal system where everyone can progress to max gear with their own choice of content rather than forcing group content on everyone's throat, and that design direction change absolutely has enraged those people who believe they are special and should receive all the cool things, talk about entitlement xD

Everything you said can be applied to gamers in general and anyone with a hobby that they are passionate about. So aside from very young players who can get a bit addicted I don't think this is a mental health issue.

Amaranthar

Scot said:

Ralphie2449 said:

Because some people try to avoid understanding why they do things or the reason behind their actions in order to avoid facing the ugly truth about themselves.

MMO players honestly are not the most mentally healthy individuals and that can be seen by many popular examples:

-Players so literally addicted to a game they will hate it, trash it, call it a terrible experience yet keep playing for years on end while it makes them unhappy and miserable, just check any big mmo forum

-Players whose self worth is literally based on having things others dont, which is where it starts influence game design where devs treat raiders as a special class, where cool things like Visions of Nzoth in WoW or Torghast are gutted and nerfed in terms of rewards cuz their special class cried that they had to do content other than raidlog.

-And let's not forget, players who are so invested that devs making changes to the game sends them into a crazy maniac rage to the point of insulting devs on social media and sending them death threats cuz they dared nerf their crutch broken build.

There's always people in groups that arent that healthy, but hardcore mmo players definitely have a far higher % of those around and the devs pandering to such mentally unhealthy crowds by designing games around them isnt making things better.

Thankfully, more and more mmos are moving away from that design ideology and going towards a fair equal system where everyone can progress to max gear with their own choice of content rather than forcing group content on everyone's throat, and that design direction change absolutely has enraged those people who believe they are special and should receive all the cool things, talk about entitlement xD

Everything you said can be applied to gamers in general and anyone with a hobby that they are passionate about. So aside from very young players who can get a bit addicted I don't think this is a mental health issue.

It's MORE of an emotional issue, but I think it's still a bit mental, if'n ya ask me. 

Amaranthar

Ralphie2449 said:

kitarad said:

What is your problem seriously ? Does every one of your responses have to be this veiled insult at the gaming mentality where people enjoy savouring their well earned achievements for the sheer fun

Because some people try to avoid understanding why they do things or the reason behind their actions in order to avoid facing the ugly truth about themselves.

MMO players honestly are not the most mentally healthy individuals and that can be seen by many popular examples:

-Players so literally addicted to a game they will hate it, trash it, call it a terrible experience yet keep playing for years on end while it makes them unhappy and miserable, just check any big mmo forum

-Players whose self worth is literally based on having things others dont, which is where it starts influence game design where devs treat raiders as a special class, where cool things like Visions of Nzoth in WoW or Torghast are gutted and nerfed in terms of rewards cuz their special class cried that they had to do content other than raidlog.

-And let's not forget, players who are so invested that devs making changes to the game sends them into a crazy maniac rage to the point of insulting devs on social media and sending them death threats cuz they dared nerf their crutch broken build.

There's always people in groups that arent that healthy, but hardcore mmo players definitely have a far higher % of those around and the devs pandering to such mentally unhealthy crowds by designing games around them isnt making things better.

Thankfully, more and more mmos are moving away from that design ideology and going towards a fair equal system where everyone can progress to max gear with their own choice of content rather than forcing group content on everyone's throat, and that design direction change absolutely has enraged those people who believe they are special and should receive all the cool things, talk about entitlement xD

There were a number of things in UO that were just plain fun, but they changed because of complaints from other players. These complaints just seemed based on pettiness, it seemed to me. 

Examples:

Players could teleport to the edge of a higher level, and it was fun to do that on Dungeon ledges so a mass of MOBs couldn't get at you. I used to rain Explosion Potions down on the MOBs just for the fun of it. (It didn't work well, because damaged MOBs would run away.) 

Some "items on the ground" would block players and MOBs alike, so players would build barriers just inside of Dungeon entrances, leaving room for a good number of players to work from, and then draw Dragons up so we could all fire missile weapons, and some could teleport out to do hand-held damage, then pop back behind the barrier. 
Gates were also used to get back and forth over the barrier. 
But gamers complained, and they made it so that MOBs would destroy certain items used as barriers as soon as they walked into them. 

(Side note: It would be nice if MOBs could somehow recognize such traps and stay out of range. That would be more challenging and maybe even be more fun. It would be great to hear a MOB yell out "Stay back! Walls!" to other MOBs. lol) 

olepi

I kind of like how City of Heroes does it. It has the traditional level design, with maps covering levels and if you stray into a higher zone, you die pretty fast.

However, if you join a team, you are automatically set to one level below the leader. I regularly run pickup groups at level 50, and you can select up to +4 on top of that. So if I invited a level 40, they wouldn't be able to even hit the higher mobs and they would probably die in one shot by the mobs. But since they auto-level to 49 (one below me at 50), they can still contribute. 

You don't gain any new powers, but all of the powers you do have are scaled, so even a level 1 can play on a level 50 team. The XP a lower level gets is huge in this case. I've gotten 23 levels in just an hour or two of play this way. So no need to "catch up" at all.

Plus, CoH doesn't have armor or weapons, so no need to worry about what level they might be, like in other games.

It works the other way too. As a level 50, you can still play on a lower level team, and you will be set to one level below the leader. In that case, you only get the powers that you had selected at that level. So even a maxed out character can play on a lower level team and be at their level without any higher level powers.

Ungood

Ralphie2449 said:

kitarad said:

What is your problem seriously ? Does every one of your responses have to be this veiled insult at the gaming mentality where people enjoy savouring their well earned achievements for the sheer fun

Because some people try to avoid understanding why they do things or the reason behind their actions in order to avoid facing the ugly truth about themselves.

MMO players honestly are not the most mentally healthy individuals and that can be seen by many popular examples:

-Players so literally addicted to a game they will hate it, trash it, call it a terrible experience yet keep playing for years on end while it makes them unhappy and miserable, just check any big mmo forum

-Players whose self worth is literally based on having things others dont, which is where it starts influence game design where devs treat raiders as a special class, where cool things like Visions of Nzoth in WoW or Torghast are gutted and nerfed in terms of rewards cuz their special class cried that they had to do content other than raidlog.

-And let's not forget, players who are so invested that devs making changes to the game sends them into a crazy maniac rage to the point of insulting devs on social media and sending them death threats cuz they dared nerf their crutch broken build.

There's always people in groups that arent that healthy, but hardcore mmo players definitely have a far higher % of those around and the devs pandering to such mentally unhealthy crowds by designing games around them isnt making things better.

Thankfully, more and more mmos are moving away from that design ideology and going towards a fair equal system where everyone can progress to max gear with their own choice of content rather than forcing group content on everyone's throat, and that design direction change absolutely has enraged those people who believe they are special and should receive all the cool things, talk about entitlement xD

Well, again, GW2 has been made the right moves in this direction by making the highest tier gear available to anyone, with making Open World Legendary Armor, IMHO, correcting the mistake they made in 2015 with their release of Raids, this allowing PvP, WvW, Raids, and Open World players to now have their own path to the best Armor in the Game. Which is why I retuned to playing GW2. No Joke, I had taken a LOT of breaks, for a long time, between HoT and SOTO.

Truth be told, I think you have your own unsolvable problem, where you want more power, but don't think people should be allowed to take pride in their efforts obtain it

In no small sense of Irony, GW2/Anet boasts about having the most well adjusted and friendly population of MMO's, to the point that they are in fact renowned for this, so much so, that they had to ask, nay, beg, their players to allow those new players coming from Steam to play the game, and not just carry their asses to the end smiling the whole while they are doing it. LOL.

With all that said:

While I do agree with some of your points about MMO players being somewhat unhinged, no doubt, and those that base their personal self worth into the game, are again, without a doubt the worst of the worst of MMO players, not because they take pride in their efforts, but because they exist in a state where the only way they can be happy, is if others are forced to do without what they have. That need to be able to look down their nose at the second class players.

To that degree, I fully agree with you, and I also agree that the HCRaiders or whatever equal the game might have, are often the epitome of this kind of problematic behavior.

Being passionate about a hobby, Ergo, or having high emptions and opinions about changes, is very common for any and all hobbies, and often result in angry outbursts, rage, and feelings of being slighted, this is so very not unique to MMO's however, this does affect all hobbies.

Want to what a shit storm unleash, change the designation of a bird, and you will watch Bird Watchers the world over want to lynch you by your ballsack.

Just saying on that one.

Ungood

Amaranthar said:

Ungood said:

Well, I have a lot of mixed feelings on this one

I understand why the mechanic exists, and that is mainly because to keep MMO's and their player base active, there is this demand to keep adding more to the game. Often in the form of higher levels, bigger, badder boss mobs, and more ludicrous loot

This often take the name of "Power Creep"

The thing about this however, is that over time the players that were struggling to get that +1, now see a noob with a +50, after playing for literally nothing, makes them feel slighted.

Not going to lie, I feel that. That is in my mind the same as seeing someone walk into my job after I have been there for a year, getting paid as much if not more for the same position. No one likes that.

So I totally respect that feeling in gaming where these "catch-up" mechanics are not well received.

But like others, I realize that this is a result in a flaw in the design of the game itself, often a fault of the Old School systems and mindset

I personally burned out of EQ due to the continual increase of levels, so I will say, I am not a fan of that mechanic directly

A lot of more modren MMO's have been working out systems to remove this kind of flaw in it's entirety, and to that venture of course I am going to mention GW2

Anet took the stand they would not increase levels, the cap is 80, and to their credit, has remained such since launch

They have added power creep in the form of Specific Kinds of Gear, Elite Specs, Masteries, etc. But a lot of that is mostly horizontal.

It is currently so easy to make it to cap, that It's an ongoing joke in GW2 these days that making it to 80th the first time simply means you completed the tutorial, and now is when  the real game starts.

Thus the player base was amazingly apathetic to the introduction of the 80th level boots you can buy in the store

Literally the most basic thing a player can do in GW2 is make level cap.

At this late in the game, players will have dozens of level 80th characters, some they leveled doing stuff, a lot they leveled in the bank. Not to mention, in GW2, every "Level" you earn past Cap (Which also includes masteries) rewards an item called a spirit shard, which are used in crafting, and even using them, and players will still have literally thousands upon thousands of these in their bank, as testament to how many levels they really have earned playing the game

The Down Leveling Mechanic in GW2, means that you don't need to rush your friends to catch up to you either, you can go run with them as they explore and learn the game. No need to make an alt, or any concession at all, they log in and you go meet them with your main, and you play together, it's that simple.

This IMHO, was a great move to eliminate any "catch-up" stress in the game

So MMO's devs have been looking into ways to eliminate this design flaw with MMO's

As for MMO's like WoW, where this is a prevalent problems, I really have no idea what to tell you, it's a problem caused by the inherent design and development of the game.

Truth be told, I think they are inherently bad, because rushing a player to the top, well first off, it rushes them up there, so they don't really get that time to learn the game, this also results in them bypassing a lot of content, that may or may not be really fun and enjoyable, it also puts them in a position where even if they are the same character level or gear score as those around them, they do not have that vastness of game knowledge that normally would come with those levels and that gear

While this might not be a problem for a serious hardcore player that has the skills to Rockstar the raids and whatever content that may come by skill and pure awesomesauce, this is a really bad place for a casual that needs all the help they can get but is met with resentment or animosity.

I do not have a solution for the games that painted themselves into this corner, but I am quite happy to see other game companies exploring solutions to this very problem. 

"I do not have a solution for the games that painted themselves into this corner, but I am quite happy to see other game companies exploring solutions to this very problem. "

Yeah, just have your Snickers Potions handy. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4WorCP_D9s 

I'll admit, I have no fucking clue what you're trying to say with this, but I laughed my ass off at that video.

cameltosis

Scot said:

I think both vertical and horizontal progression are needed and as long as those who can't catch up have plenty to do what is the issue? I do think alts need to have a speedier ascent but that's it, there are always new players climbing the ladder, but as long as they have plenty to do that's fine. I am going to sound so corny now, it should be a journey not a race.

The problem that catchup mechanics try to solve is nothing to do with content, but directly to do with multiplayer.

Vertical progression segregates the community, but the community (hopefully....) wants to play together. Catchup mechanics reduce the amount time it takes between a player joining the game and being able to play with their friends.

Doesn't really matter if you've got 300 hours of boring solo content to do if what you want to do is play with your mates.

Sovrath

Ralphie2449 said:

kitarad said:

What is your problem seriously ? Does every one of your responses have to be this veiled insult at the gaming mentality where people enjoy savouring their well earned achievements for the sheer fun

Because some people try to avoid understanding why they do things or the reason behind their actions in order to avoid facing the ugly truth about themselves.

Great, then "Does every one of your responses have to be this veiled insult at the gaming mentality where people enjoy savouring their well earned achievements for the sheer fun?"

Amaranthar

Ungood said:

Amaranthar said:

Ungood said:

Well, I have a lot of mixed feelings on this one

I understand why the mechanic exists, and that is mainly because to keep MMO's and their player base active, there is this demand to keep adding more to the game. Often in the form of higher levels, bigger, badder boss mobs, and more ludicrous loot

This often take the name of "Power Creep"

The thing about this however, is that over time the players that were struggling to get that +1, now see a noob with a +50, after playing for literally nothing, makes them feel slighted.

Not going to lie, I feel that. That is in my mind the same as seeing someone walk into my job after I have been there for a year, getting paid as much if not more for the same position. No one likes that.

So I totally respect that feeling in gaming where these "catch-up" mechanics are not well received.

But like others, I realize that this is a result in a flaw in the design of the game itself, often a fault of the Old School systems and mindset

I personally burned out of EQ due to the continual increase of levels, so I will say, I am not a fan of that mechanic directly

A lot of more modren MMO's have been working out systems to remove this kind of flaw in it's entirety, and to that venture of course I am going to mention GW2

Anet took the stand they would not increase levels, the cap is 80, and to their credit, has remained such since launch

They have added power creep in the form of Specific Kinds of Gear, Elite Specs, Masteries, etc. But a lot of that is mostly horizontal.

It is currently so easy to make it to cap, that It's an ongoing joke in GW2 these days that making it to 80th the first time simply means you completed the tutorial, and now is when  the real game starts.

Thus the player base was amazingly apathetic to the introduction of the 80th level boots you can buy in the store

Literally the most basic thing a player can do in GW2 is make level cap.

At this late in the game, players will have dozens of level 80th characters, some they leveled doing stuff, a lot they leveled in the bank. Not to mention, in GW2, every "Level" you earn past Cap (Which also includes masteries) rewards an item called a spirit shard, which are used in crafting, and even using them, and players will still have literally thousands upon thousands of these in their bank, as testament to how many levels they really have earned playing the game

The Down Leveling Mechanic in GW2, means that you don't need to rush your friends to catch up to you either, you can go run with them as they explore and learn the game. No need to make an alt, or any concession at all, they log in and you go meet them with your main, and you play together, it's that simple.

This IMHO, was a great move to eliminate any "catch-up" stress in the game

So MMO's devs have been looking into ways to eliminate this design flaw with MMO's

As for MMO's like WoW, where this is a prevalent problems, I really have no idea what to tell you, it's a problem caused by the inherent design and development of the game.

Truth be told, I think they are inherently bad, because rushing a player to the top, well first off, it rushes them up there, so they don't really get that time to learn the game, this also results in them bypassing a lot of content, that may or may not be really fun and enjoyable, it also puts them in a position where even if they are the same character level or gear score as those around them, they do not have that vastness of game knowledge that normally would come with those levels and that gear

While this might not be a problem for a serious hardcore player that has the skills to Rockstar the raids and whatever content that may come by skill and pure awesomesauce, this is a really bad place for a casual that needs all the help they can get but is met with resentment or animosity.

I do not have a solution for the games that painted themselves into this corner, but I am quite happy to see other game companies exploring solutions to this very problem. 

"I do not have a solution for the games that painted themselves into this corner, but I am quite happy to see other game companies exploring solutions to this very problem. "

Yeah, just have your Snickers Potions handy. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4WorCP_D9s 

I'll admit, I have no fucking clue what you're trying to say with this, but I laughed my ass off at that video.

What I'm saying is that these catch-up mechanics change your characters, and you "aren't yourself." 
WTH is that about? Don't players care about their characters anymore? The what, the who, the identity, things that define their characters. 

Quoting the 30th Level adventurer:
"When I went to Dungeon Z, as I was 49th Level, I could do things I couldn't do!"