Star Wars: Galaxies Veteran Dev Reminisces On Making

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Star Wars: Galaxies Veteran Dev Reminisces On Making

In a recent interview, SWG Executive Producer Rich Vogel talked about the venerable MMO, comparing to No Man's Sky, but in 2003.

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Tiller

Session-based, so like Monster Hunter, or EDF?

figma001

SWG still 1 of the best mmo ever created, if not top 2 at least top 3 of all time, still remember for the first month, no one knew what or how to do anything but grind faction points if you were imperial to get atst. Then finally people got the crafting meta and finally people starting to understand its almost like everyone just got dropped off in a new planet

aleos

32 professions, could combine them. No levels. Learn by doing. No "classes" per say unless you specialized. Player cities and monitization, automation, adventure. Space flight, Space travel, Space combat. Haven't played a single game like it since. Players have since been treated like ATM machines. Thanks John.

Angrakhan

I think the thing SWG did best was just about every system was designed around interacting with other players in some way either competitively or cooperatively. From combat to crafting and the economy. There was even a dancing profession that granted buffs which game people an actual reason to go to a cantina as opposed to other games where inns/bars are just a set piece and are useless to spend time in unless you're there to roleplay. Pretty ingenious design that even lone wolf players had to at some point interact with other players. Very different design philosophy than a lot of modern games which can be played like a single player game for the most part.

Sovrath

Angrakhan said:

There was even a dancing profession that granted buffs which game people an actual reason to go to a cantina as opposed to other games where inns/bars are just a set piece and are useless to spend time in unless you're there to roleplay.

I wonder if this would fly today or if it would just be a litany of complaints.

And help us if they have to spend a minute or more being "entertained" for the buff.

Erillion

I have never seen anything like an SWG Cantina Crawl in any other game  - with some of the entertainers doing self-composed pieces using the build-in macro system. Epic.

Lord of the Ring Weathertop Music festivals are a close second.  Of course, that has no in game value for a powergamer .. its just ... beautiful

Have fun

olepi

I remember in DAOC in 2001 I was playing as a minstrel. One time, as we were waiting to port into pvp land, I ran around the group waiting and was playing my musical instruments as if I was a real minstrel. 

Somebody tipped me 5 gold, which to a beginner was a lot of gold. So even back then I was role playing a musician just for the fun of it.

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Sovrath

tzervo said:

Sovrath said:

Angrakhan said:

There was even a dancing profession that granted buffs which game people an actual reason to go to a cantina as opposed to other games where inns/bars are just a set piece and are useless to spend time in unless you're there to roleplay.

I wonder if this would fly today or if it would just be a litany of complaints.

And help us if they have to spend a minute or more being "entertained" for the buff.

As someone who joined MMOs late (2011) I often wonder if this should fly today. I played EVE, which has its share of old-school elements which I could see being important for immersion and even providing gameplay hooks (example, going from A to B ), but at the same time I found them boring. Same with the cantinas, they add to immersion, they are even valid gameplay for some, but I can also sympathize with someone saying "it's boring - it's not content".

I know many old MMO gamers swear by the older designs. But I think I will always remain a sceptic whether this is true or just nostalgia/different ages/different times. I guess I really should have been there to have my answer.

hmmm ...

I think what I find is that some people vehemently proclaim that it "has to" be nostalgia because they can't get on board with a variety of these old school elements.

But I think what happens is that "they" don't like it so simply put "no one else can either."

I know for myself I have been trending toward playing and replaying older games for years now. I absolutely don't like hand holding and I don't like quest markers.

I preferred Lineage 2 over many of the games I tried afterwards because the game play was about the players. It felt more like a world and less like a game.

For games that are not linear rpg's (so open world, have towns, etc) I like to immerse myself in the world. For example, in Skyrim, I will go to a tavern and that's where I read the books.

I tried to player skyrim without quest markers but sadly in most cases the player needs them as there isn't enough in the description in order for the player to progress.

Scot

tzervo said:

Sovrath said:

Angrakhan said:

There was even a dancing profession that granted buffs which game people an actual reason to go to a cantina as opposed to other games where inns/bars are just a set piece and are useless to spend time in unless you're there to roleplay.

I wonder if this would fly today or if it would just be a litany of complaints.

And help us if they have to spend a minute or more being "entertained" for the buff.

As someone who joined MMOs late (2011) I often wonder if this should fly today. I played EVE, which has its share of old-school elements which I could see being important for immersion and even providing gameplay hooks (example, going from A to B ), but at the same time I found them boring. Same with the cantinas, they add to immersion, they are even valid gameplay for some, but I can also sympathize with someone saying "it's boring - it's not content".

I know many old MMO gamers swear by the older designs. But I think I will always remain a sceptic whether this is true or just nostalgia/different ages/different times. I guess I really should have been there to have my answer.

Modern gaming has created a landscape where this kind of activity would cause players to start complaining. But that's because the MMORPG landscape is now totally solo player and no interaction with other players is expected.

Meanwhile when was the last time you heard a player complaining that they had to interact with players in co-op games? If we can make players realise that in MMORPG's they have been put in solitary confinement and fed a diet of solo gruel they may realise that MMORPG's have sold them short and can be so much more.

Tiller

SWG was the only MMO I felt like I could live in day to day, a livable game world. A lot of folks just went AFK and never logged out while at work or run their buff bots or crafting and gathering macros while away. Decorating your main house or guild hall was with items was something most people did.

I still remember the doc buff lines, and how some players created macros to recognize line cutters and ban them from buffs all while being afk lmao.

Who else could forget Fightclubs on top of guild halls where folks would fight for days to level up a Jedi force XP. 

The only other game that has an actual livable world you can live in sadly is Second Life.

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riningear

I'm on the younger end of the millennial spectrum, so I missed the original Galaxies bandwagon, but I can tell you a game like this would work... if it's by a smaller studio, with a smaller audience. Seems SWG itself maintains a really nice community, as with many legacy MMOs, but the numbers would never justify the sort of scale we saw with the original SWG.

A lot of people say they want this or that, but that's how you get incidents like the original Final Fantasy 14 1.0. Then again, Book of Travels is sort of trying the "fully freeform" model, and it seems to be here and there on whether it's working out...

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Sovrath

tzervo said:

Sovrath said:

hmmm ...

I think what I find is that some people vehemently proclaim that it "has to" be nostalgia because they can't get on board with a variety of these old school elements.

But I think what happens is that "they" don't like it so simply put "no one else can either."

I know for myself I have been trending toward playing and replaying older games for years now. I absolutely don't like hand holding and I don't like quest markers.

I preferred Lineage 2 over many of the games I tried afterwards because the game play was about the players. It felt more like a world and less like a game.

For games that are not linear rpg's (so open world, have towns, etc) I like to immerse myself in the world. For example, in Skyrim, I will go to a tavern and that's where I read the books.

I tried to player skyrim without quest markers but sadly in most cases the player needs them as there isn't enough in the description in order for the player to progress.

I am not saying it "has to be" nostalgia. I am just not sure it is not.

I am definitely not saying ""they" don't like it so simply put "no one else can either." (I probably could have worded my post a bit better in this respect). When I say whether it should fly, I mean that I see the merits in the "new" designs and why they are popular, as opposed to the "old was better" camp. I especially do not get the criticism towards those that simply do not like such mechanics because "they simply do not get it".

I am strongly of the opinion that both styles and designs have their place and should exist, to serve their respective playerbases.

Oh, sorry, I wasn't trying to imply you were saying this. Just thinking and musing about past conversations about older games.

Asm0deus

I would like to see this game get a nice facelift and better UI for todays tech!

kitarad

I didn't lke having to be logged on in BDO for those afk activities.  Wasting electricity.

Terazon

Enough already with drawing attention to your attached name to an older MMO like SWG.
 It is a dead game and a dead horse.
Myspace launched that year which came before Facebook so enough already with the we did this and that. We invented this and we invented that. No you didn't. This guy and Raph are so full of themselves.
What is next they invented the internet? Cars? Steam? Oxygen? Cheese?
Make a game a deliver it.
Shut your mouth, put your nose down, grind or bugger off into the rearview.  
Talk talk talk. 

Scot

Terazon said:

Enough already with drawing attention to your attached name to an older MMO like SWG.
 It is a dead game and a dead horse.
Myspace launched that year which came before Facebook so enough already with the we did this and that. We invented this and we invented that. No you didn't. This guy and Raph are so full of themselves.
What is next they invented the internet? Cars? Steam? Oxygen? Cheese?
Make a game a deliver it.
Shut your mouth, put your nose down, grind or bugger off into the rearview.  
Talk talk talk. 

What you are missing is that rather than turning back the clock what we are looking at is what can be brought from the past to make games better today?

Let me give you one example, "rogue like" was a type of game that I first played on a mates Commodore 64 and then some years later seemed to all but disappear. Then several years ago I think due to the advent of indie it started to make a comeback and we now have many forms of that genre and are the better of for it.

Just one of the things we are looking at here is how a buffing system can work to make a MMO more interactive. I favour a "minstrel" removing a debuff from too many deaths in PvP or removing a "you have played too much penalty" if the MMO have those systems. But best of all would be to not have penalties and the minstrel instead maintains a buff that you get for logging in.

There is a tendency for those who are relatively new to gaming and indeed even among us older ones to think that gaming systems have all evolved for the better, that somehow this is a natural process and nothing good could be left behind. But gaming was not developed to some grand plan, so it is not surprising that along with the systems that are better we have those that have devolved, are just mismatched or just forgotten.

Scot

tzervo said:

I can sympathize with both sides - actually all three:

- Those that want interactions - makes sense, this is a unique strength of the genre.
- Those that don't - why would their kind of fun be inferior to others', current MMOs have proved that this is what many players want after all.
- Those that want interactions but spending time in cantinas to get a buff is simply not their kind, but they would rather do something that involves either more action or more decision making (that's where I fit in).

I particularly disagree with MMORPG's being capable of being "so much more" by fitting to a particular playstyle. Sure they may be for you and me, but not necessarily for everyone.

When I am saying "so much more" that does not mean I am sitting here with a long list of compulsory activities for you all to do.

Something like the buff idea would be seen of as more of a "necessity" so if you included that there had better not be too many other systems players thought they must engage in. We have seen this in MMOs which when faced with end game have gone down the line of throwing loads of little things at players to do. This is overwhelming as the PvP and raids are still there and now there is all this other stuff! So that balance has to be carefully maintained. 

To me it is not a matter of sympathizing with all sides, MMORPGs are meant to be inclusive of all these play styles, there should be something for everyone. That is what makes MMORRGs the greatest gaming genre there is, this gestalt of gameplay where the whole is so much more than the individual systems that are put in.

OldKingLog

Sovrath said:

Angrakhan said:

There was even a dancing profession that granted buffs which game people an actual reason to go to a cantina as opposed to other games where inns/bars are just a set piece and are useless to spend time in unless you're there to roleplay.

I wonder if this would fly today or if it would just be a litany of complaints.

And help us if they have to spend a minute or more being "entertained" for the buff.

No and it didn't really fly then. That's why it got to be you had two choices, waste time and tips getting buffed, or get totally creamed in PVP and PVE. Hated how half the time you couldn't put armor on if you weren't buffed. SWG had some wonderful ideas but it was very far from perfect.

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Scot

tzervo said:

Scot said:

(1) Something like the buff idea would be seen of as more of a "necessity" so if you included that there had better not be too many other systems players thought they must engage in. We have seen this in MMOs which when faced with end game have gone down the line of throwing loads of little things at players to do. This is overwhelming as the PvP and raids are still there and now there is all this other stuff! So that balance has to be carefully maintained. 

(2) To me it is not a matter of sympathizing with all sides, MMORPGs are meant to be inclusive of all these play styles, there should be something for everyone. That is what makes MMORRGs the greatest gaming genre there is, this gestalt of gameplay where the whole is so much more than the individual systems that are put in.

(1) Totally agree. Also, those little things need to feed into other styles of gameplay to earn their keep (Mr Koster's "every inconvenience in your design is potentially someone’s game."), like with consumables feeding into crafters' gameplay etc. That's why I wonder about some of those older mechanics like cantina buffs, if the tradeoff (socialization/immersion vs downtime) is worth it and if the design could be improved.

(2) True, some games do include loops for different play styles, and that's my preference too. Even group-oriented players need to have something solo to do, while their group is away or as gameplay filler between group activities. At the same time, they do not have to, you can also have MMOs that specialize in a particular style (Foxhole comes to mind).

Many players are not going to want a downtime for any reason, would maintaining a buff be enough? If it wasn't they might have to put something more in. Thinking back to the sort of festival games that Lotro had, maybe having that on hand to do in the "inn" would make "strictly solo" players happy with the "downtime".