Best example of alignment or reputation system you've seen?

Dammam

What's the best example of an alignment or reputation system you've seen in an MMO? So many games have some form of this as a secondary progression system or content-gating mechanism, but I honestly can't think of an example I've experienced that I thought was really well done. Have any of you come across a good one?

kitarad

In spite of standing about killing orc after orc or gnoll after gnoll I think Everquest did because it actually allowed the worshippers of different gods and evil races to bank in Freeport. The consequences of being evil or worshipping some evil god also meant you had to constantly be wary of NPCs and if you were agnostic you could use a disguise to look like another race and the game actually changed your appearance to fit that. You could still disguise yourself as if you were worshipping a god but they can see through that. I loved how you could be a piece of furniture too that was awesome.

If you killed even one bear in Surefall Glades  the game made sure the residents would treat you as kill on sight. You could not even heal or help another person kill a bear there. Catching and killing the fish in that temple also made you kill on sight.

Merchants also had different prices depending on how they felt about you. It was a rather involved system. Of course it had it's flaws like endless muffins but I think it did make the world feel more alive.

Dammam

kitarad said:

[...]

The consequences of being evil or worshipping some evil god also meant you had to constantly be wary of NPCs and if you were agnostic you could use a disguise to look like another race and the game actually changed your appearance to fit that. You could still disguise yourself as if you were worshipping a god but they can see through that. I loved how you could be a piece of furniture too that was awesome.

[...]

That's an interesting point. I think a lot of times these systems like reputation suffer from very shallow implementations. If you need rep, then that's all you can do, for example. It's far more interesting when there are multiple paths around a challenge, like get your rep up or alternatively disguise yourself. Now that you mention that, I think often times my problem isn't with a particular in-game obstacle, but the lack of options and choice in how I overcome them.

Theocritus

Everquest did do that very well...You couldnt go in cities were the guards would attack you on sight. You knew where you stood with any NPC with the con system.

Phaserlight

It's honestly just a progress bar; not like that's a bad thing.  The writing can catch up

Dibdabs

Way back in the day of EQ I vaguely recall a screenshot someone had taken of their human character standing next to the throne in Neriak.  NPCs were in the room, including guards and even the ruler of the city I think, and he was just nonchalantly standing there with them ignoring him.  He should have been instantly KoS but had very slowly and gradually worked on his Rep until he reached the point where he was tolerated.  I remember being very impressed indeed at the time and I'm still impressed almost 25 years later.

Scot

I think alignment and reputation have fallen foul of two directions MMORPGs have moved in over the years. Alignment suggests gods and MMOs have moved away from having gods or if they do have them they have no one who follows them in the game.

Reputations (faction reputations) leads to player frustration, over the years designers seem to have decided that players cannot make a choice they may regret. Killing that one bear by mistake as Kitarad mentioned and finding you are kill on sight would cause endless vexation on social media about the issue. Players who think they have made poor choices including unwittingly may decide to leave a game, which cannot be allowed to happen.

Personally I feel this is a real loss to MMOs.

Perhaps in more direct answer to the OPs question I have seen a few reputation systems (PvP ones) in my time, none were thought to be that good. It is one of those areas which bedevils MMOs, they are exceedingly hard to implement well. 

kitarad

Scot said:

I think alignment and reputation have fallen foul of two directions MMORPGs have moved in over the years. Alignment suggests gods and MMOs have moved away from having gods or if they do have them they have no one who follows them in the game.

Reputations (faction reputations) leads to player frustration, over the years designers seem to have decided that players cannot make a choice they may regret. Killing that one bear by mistake as Kitarad mentioned and finding you are kill on sight would cause endless vexation on social media about the issue. Players who think they have made poor choices including unwittingly may decide to leave a game, which cannot be allowed to happen.

Personally I feel this is a real loss to MMOs.

Perhaps in more direct answer to the OPs question I have seen a few reputation systems (PvP ones) in my time, none were thought to be that good. It is one of those areas which bedevils MMOs, they are exceedingly hard to implement well. 

Yes you're right the developers in a later patch changed it so that you would have to kill several bears to become kill on sight but you would actually have to pay attention to the red chat alerting you to your loss of faction. So if you miss even that well....

Your point about the grousing on unforgiving game mechanics meant there were no permanent consequences to your actions in game. More's the pity I say.

Nowadays only single player games give those dire consequences true weight that would require a whole new game to correct.

There was also one Plane I think Plane of Growth that made your city of birth completely kill on sight. Felwithe I think, if you killed even one mob in that plane. Many High Elves did not go to that Plane at all because even if you did not kill anything or assist it was enough to be grouped with someone who did. GM had to fix it the day that Plane came out in Everquest. The weeping on the forums could fill Niagara. After that your guild would warn you but some of the gear on that Plane was worth the loss.

madazz

Ultima Online. A game based upon other players rather than NPC's.

Depending on your actions, and how often you you did it, your title would change. There were many tiers to the title too. Like Dark Lord, or Glorious whatever. It said a lot about your character to other players. Like if Dread Lord Buddy asked you to follow him to a shop for deals you knew dude was probably going to PK you lol

Elidien_ga

madazz said:

Ultima Online. A game based upon other players rather than NPC's.

Depending on your actions, and how often you you did it, your title would change. There were many tiers to the title too. Like Dark Lord, or Glorious whatever. It said a lot about your character to other players. Like if Dread Lord Buddy asked you to follow him to a shop for deals you knew dude was probably going to PK you lol

I would love a game to implement something similar where your playstyle is echoed in your look or title or whatever. Some games would have guides where players could act as like helpers to GM's (without any power). WOW has this for the looking for raid feature but it would be nice if it was something more permanent.

Wargfoot

I think it's hard to say without considering the justice system, unless you also mean that.