Throne and Liberty confirmed P2W

Nanfoodle

Kyleran

Yeah, that's all pretty grim news for sure.  Sounds like L2 with extra P2W or P3 skip content baked in.

I liked some of his ideas to make it less P2W here in the West but realistically AWS can only do (or are willing to do) so much to tone it down some.

Along with the F2P/botting challenges it probably will go a lot like Lost Ark which despite player complaints probably has made a lot of money for all involved.

Interesting to learn NCSoft saw fit to return detailed financials to their latest quarterly report but conspicuously left  T&L off of this list, must really be tanking hard in Korea.

Streamer made it a real point to say this game is one of the few "true""MMOs that seem to release in a year, to which I heartily agree with his viewpoint 

That said, I feel a bit bad that when he closed saying perhaps AWS can come up with some changes to make T&L successful my first thought was....

"Maybe they should market it as a MMOARPG?".   

Tiller

I was in CB and yeah, I expected it to be along the lines of Lost Ark.

Slapshot1188

This is the Korean version though right?  

He even mentions that we don't know what is coming for the US version?

PS: I don't agree with his contention that a monthly sub is P2W...

Tiller

Slapshot1188 said:

This is the Korean version though right?  

He even mentions that we don't know what is coming for the US version?

PS: I don't agree with his contention that a monthly sub is P2W...

Honestly if you play this game as a pay to play it's not bad, honestly. Treat it like ESO+

Slapshot1188

Tiller said:

Slapshot1188 said:

This is the Korean version though right?  

He even mentions that we don't know what is coming for the US version?

PS: I don't agree with his contention that a monthly sub is P2W...

Honestly if you play this game as a pay to play it's not bad, honestly. Treat it like ESO+

That's what I'm hoping.  I have zero problem paying a monthly sub.  I do not expect full fledged games for free.

lotrlore

Yea, something like this I'm more interested in what the Western version will be, especially considering AGS has told us in interviews in the past for both this and Blue Protocol that they are working to remove and revamp some of the things that we in the West view as "P2W" versus what are just normal MMO mechanics in Korea. 

Considering the current Korean version isn't what will be released here, I'm going withhold judgment till we've had a chance to put it through its paces. 

Nanfoodle

lotrlore said:

Yea, something like this I'm more interested in what the Western version will be, especially considering AGS has told us in interviews in the past for both this and Blue Protocol that they are working to remove and revamp some of the things that we in the West view as "P2W" versus what are just normal MMO mechanics in Korea. 

Considering the current Korean version isn't what will be released here, I'm going withhold judgment till we've had a chance to put it through its paces. 

Would be nice but I wont be holding my breath. NCSoft has lots all of of cred and Amazon has not done allot to garner favor with the gaming community. 

JeroKane

Nanfoodle said:

lotrlore said:

Yea, something like this I'm more interested in what the Western version will be, especially considering AGS has told us in interviews in the past for both this and Blue Protocol that they are working to remove and revamp some of the things that we in the West view as "P2W" versus what are just normal MMO mechanics in Korea. 

Considering the current Korean version isn't what will be released here, I'm going withhold judgment till we've had a chance to put it through its paces. 

Would be nice but I wont be holding my breath. NCSoft has lots all of of cred and Amazon has not done allot to garner favor with the gaming community. 

Yeah lol. NCSoft and AGS doesn't fill me with any confidence. At all!

So far AGS has been an failure of Epic proportions. So my expectations are way below freezing point lol.

Kumapon

Kyleran said:

Yeah, that's all pretty grim news for sure.  Sounds like L2 with extra P2W or P3 skip content baked in.

I liked some of his ideas to make it less P2W here in the West but realistically AWS can only do (or are willing to do) so much to tone it down some.

Along with the F2P/botting challenges it probably will go a lot like Lost Ark which despite player complaints probably has made a lot of money for all involved.

Interesting to learn NCSoft saw fit to return detailed financials to their latest quarterly report but conspicuously left  T&L off of this list, must really be tanking hard in Korea.

Streamer made it a real point to say this game is one of the few "true""MMOs that seem to release in a year, to which I heartily agree with his viewpoint 

That said, I feel a bit bad that when he closed saying perhaps AWS can come up with some changes to make T&L successful my first thought was....

"Maybe they should market it as a MMOARPG?".   

This game is a huge bomb in Korea. It launched with 21 servers (all full), and now it's down to 4 servers, with most of the players left are foreigners. So once Global releases, everyone will leave. 

The new optional sub is called 'Blessing of Solicium'. It gives massive boosts, so you are kinda screwed if you don't use it. This is on top of a Cash Shop, Several Different Battle Passes, and a Real Money Auction House. So it's like death by a thousand cuts. 

As for P2W, the game uses a real money action house. You can Swipe for all your end game gear off the marketplace. 

Nanfoodle

Kumapon said:

Kyleran said:

Yeah, that's all pretty grim news for sure.  Sounds like L2 with extra P2W or P3 skip content baked in.

I liked some of his ideas to make it less P2W here in the West but realistically AWS can only do (or are willing to do) so much to tone it down some.

Along with the F2P/botting challenges it probably will go a lot like Lost Ark which despite player complaints probably has made a lot of money for all involved.

Interesting to learn NCSoft saw fit to return detailed financials to their latest quarterly report but conspicuously left  T&L off of this list, must really be tanking hard in Korea.

Streamer made it a real point to say this game is one of the few "true""MMOs that seem to release in a year, to which I heartily agree with his viewpoint 

That said, I feel a bit bad that when he closed saying perhaps AWS can come up with some changes to make T&L successful my first thought was....

"Maybe they should market it as a MMOARPG?".   

This game is a huge bomb in Korea. It launched with 21 servers (all full), and now it's down to 4 servers, with most of the players left are foreigners. So once Global releases, everyone will leave. 

The new optional sub is called 'Blessing of Solicium'. It gives massive boosts, so you are kinda screwed if you don't use it. This is on top of a Cash Shop, Several Different Battle Passes, and a Real Money Auction House. So it's like death by a thousand cuts. 

As for P2W, the game uses a real money action house. You can Swipe for all your end game gear off the marketplace. 

Game developers keep saying MMOing is dead. Same with AAA games struggling. Do they not get gamers are tired of being fleased. Most gamers are playing games from the past 5-10 years ago or a year after launch when the price is not outrageous. We cant get an MMO anymore that does not have micro-transactions set to kill. T and L at its core by what most are saying, is a solid game. No one needs 6 types of curancies. I hear that, I walk away. 

Xiaoki

Amazon should try and get out of publishing this game. It's a massive bomb in Korea and it will be a massive bomb in the US.

It's really only a matter of time until Throne and Liberty dies completely in Korea and what would Amazon be left with then?

Same goes for Blue Protocol.

Sovrath

Xiaoki said:

Amazon should try and get out of publishing this game. It's a massive bomb in Korea and it will be a massive bomb in the US.

It's really only a matter of time until Throne and Liberty dies completely in Korea and what would Amazon be left with then?

Same goes for Blue Protocol.

That might not be true. Granted, the “game scape” has changed but the original Lineage and Lineage 2 were huge in Korea. Here? Not as much.

I can’t speak to why it’s not doing well in Korea but it’s very possible that the turnoffs there might be desirable traits here.

Xiaoki

Sovrath said:

Xiaoki said:

Amazon should try and get out of publishing this game. It's a massive bomb in Korea and it will be a massive bomb in the US.

It's really only a matter of time until Throne and Liberty dies completely in Korea and what would Amazon be left with then?

Same goes for Blue Protocol.

That might not be true. Granted, the “game scape” has changed but the original Lineage and Lineage 2 were huge in Korea. Here? Not as much.

I can’t speak to why it’s not doing well in Korea but it’s very possible that the turnoffs there might be desirable traits here.

Yeah, American MMO players sure do love very little content, extreme pay to win, gear upgrading thats a time gated grind and full of RNG, and BOTS, BOTS and more BOTS.

Oh, yeah, it'll definitely do juuuust fine over here.

Sovrath

Xiaoki said:

Sovrath said:

Xiaoki said:

Amazon should try and get out of publishing this game. It's a massive bomb in Korea and it will be a massive bomb in the US.

It's really only a matter of time until Throne and Liberty dies completely in Korea and what would Amazon be left with then?

Same goes for Blue Protocol.

That might not be true. Granted, the “game scape” has changed but the original Lineage and Lineage 2 were huge in Korea. Here? Not as much.

I can’t speak to why it’s not doing well in Korea but it’s very possible that the turnoffs there might be desirable traits here.

Yeah, American MMO players sure do love very little content, extreme pay to win, gear upgrading thats a time gated grind and full of RNG, and BOTS, BOTS and more BOTS.

Oh, yeah, it'll definitely do juuuust fine over here.

um Black Desert is calling, will you take it here or in your room?

And I'm guessing that's NOT why it's doing poorly over there. Unless things have drastically changed. Which is could be.

Anfere31

Seing how AGS are handeling NW, i woudn't put much faith in amazon righting the ship here. If NCsoft doesn't Come up with good ideas/ implementations for global, its definitly not AGS that will save the game, they are clueless...

Dattelis

Isn't most of the gear in game sellable? I'd be more worried about that than anything else tbh. Yeah you can buy materials in Lost Ark's shop but it limited how many you can buy and you can't just buy gear outright.....Here would be a bit different. Also, the blatant P2W isn't going to keep me from playing, but the whole concept of dungeon limitations will. We're in 2024, wtf is with that old shit?

Tokken

Please........ and you were surprised by this announcement?!

Sovrath

Slapshot1188 said:

This is the Korean version though right?  

He even mentions that we don't know what is coming for the US version?

PS: I don't agree with his contention that a monthly sub is P2W...

I'm now watching this video and "yeah," it isn't a commentary of a western version but the eastern version.

While it's very possible all of this will be in the western version, it's also possible that it will be changed. Heck there could be more pay to win. But this just seems like a clickbait video.

Slapshot1188

Sovrath said:

Slapshot1188 said:

This is the Korean version though right?  

He even mentions that we don't know what is coming for the US version?

PS: I don't agree with his contention that a monthly sub is P2W...

I'm now watching this video and "yeah," it isn't a commentary of a western version but the eastern version.

While it's very possible all of this will be in the western version, it's also possible that it will be changed. Heck there could be more pay to win. But this just seems like a clickbait video.

Yup.  Do I think it will all go away when it launches?  No.  But to say something like P2W Confirmed is borderline dishonest.

cheyane

Subscriptions are not P2W and I guess battlepass is now a sub so not that either but the opinion seems to be that subs are P2W. However if you have to buy things from the cash shops to upgrade it can quickly spiral out of control and that definitely falls squarely into P2W category.

This game looked like a huge amount of fun when I saw guilds defending their hold in one video a few weeks back. It seemed like something that guilds would be salivating to play but I guess  they were turned of because of the huge amounts of P2W in the form of buying things for real money to upgrade. That can really turn people off and I suppose that explains the poor showing this game has. 

NCsoft needs to have painful lessons to tone down the greed. So losing loads of money will teach them to lessen the greed so that they can attract more players and make money on other things rather than going for the jugular by targeting the very important upgrade system. That is so sewer level P2W it is disgusting. It just preys on people's need to better their equipment and every player needs that. Opportunistic and they need a lesson on controlled greed. I hope they take notes and learn it well. Massive losses for a game they thought will make them money will do exactly that. I am glad the Korean players were smarter and did indeed abandon the game. They did us all a favour.

Hopefully a far less greedier version comes our way.

I know Undecember toned their rubbish down by the time I started playing it. Players leaving in droves is exactly what a game needs to hammer a point across and making its Western release something we can look forward to hopefully.

Scot

Battle Passes are getting a bad name, they will need to think up something new so player numties don't realise how much they need to pay to win again.

Neoyoshi

Sovrath said:

Xiaoki said:

Amazon should try and get out of publishing this game. It's a massive bomb in Korea and it will be a massive bomb in the US.

It's really only a matter of time until Throne and Liberty dies completely in Korea and what would Amazon be left with then?

Same goes for Blue Protocol.

That might not be true. Granted, the “game scape” has changed but the original Lineage and Lineage 2 were huge in Korea. Here? Not as much.

I can’t speak to why it’s not doing well in Korea but it’s very possible that the turnoffs there might be desirable traits here.

The Lineage series may have been a success but it's important to know where those roads lead over time as upper management changed at NCsoft over the years and business models shifted.  

No where on the planet is there any real desire for the business models that NCsoft employs when 'whales' are their target audience; and I'm not exaggerating, i know this wasn't the case back in the early 2000's or even in 2008 with the launch of Aion- but when we shifted to F2P models, NCsoft was the first out of the gates to supercharge the pay-for-power and convenience options.

And not much has changed with that.  NCsoft pretty much has to rely on this type of business because sadly 'Whales' are what keep them afloat, or at least 'profitable' within their own markets.

Neoyoshi

Scot said:

Battle Passes are getting a bad name, they will need to think up something new so player numties don't realise how much they need to pay to win again.

That is something I can agree with. 

Battle Passes are just the new Monthly subscription, and is not where the discussion should be focused on, because it distracts from the real glaring problem where NCsoft tends to use things like the BP systems to drip feed players with materials needed for upgrades and get them hooked on the 'real' money maker: the cash shop.

Slapshot1188

Scot said:

Battle Passes are getting a bad name, they will need to think up something new so player numties don't realise how much they need to pay to win again.

Battle Passes are just optional Subscriptions by another name.  For some reason people have an easier time paying for a "Battle Pass" than a sub..   Strange in my mind, but whatever.

olepi

If a game has a sub, I don't want to see any cash shop too unless it is just for cosmetics. Paying a monthly sub should provide the entire game, all items should be available by playing.

And a real money auction house? fuggedaboutit!