Advice For Developers

Wargfoot

After my recent Early Access fiasco, I'd like to offer some advice to game developers.
All of these will seem obvious but are clearly beyond the grasp of many studios.

• Don't miss deadlines for announcements and updates.  Don't promise you'll release information on Tuesday and then deliver it three weeks later.  Here is a pro tip: Prepare the announcement/video/web page and when it is complete announce it will be released on Tuesday but deliver it a day early.  You get to decide when these things are delivered, don't announce until totally complete and polished.  There is no reason to EVER miss one of these deadlines - YOU'RE THE ONE THAT PICKS THE DATE.
• Release frequent updates about progress you're making, don't be afraid to list even 1/2 dozen minor bug fixes.  Clueing me into minor progress beats going silent for 3 weeks.
• Don't change your vision for the game even if it will fail. When a game first launches 95% of the people playing it on Day #1 didn't even read the box, have no idea what the game is about, and have already stunk up 4 other titles this year. They'll bitch the loudest but they're not now, nor with they ever be your audience.  Stick to the plan - that's what got you the kick starter funds in the first place.
• People are looking for a track record of high-quality incremental updates towards the completion of your vision.  If don't have the funds to do that over the course of a year or two then get out of the business.
• Release smaller updates more frequently.  Develop a track record of continuous improvement.
• Immediately ban toxic members of the community.  Why on earth these assholes are tolerated is beyond me.  If some guy comes into discord and says "ded game" three times a week and that's his only contribution, then ban him. Simple. 
• Put a notice on the purchase page of your game that makes it very clear what the game has in it, such as, IN PARTS OF THIS GAME IF YOU GO THERE SOMEONE MIGHT KILL YOU AND TAKE YOUR STUFF - IF YOU CANNOT HANDLE THAT, GET OUT NOW.  Make people check a box that says they understand, have an online quiz, anything to keep the morons out.

Sheesh.

lotrlore

I'm assuming this is coming from your angst shared in the Fractured Online thread? Ever thought about doing a guest blog?

MadBomber13

lotrlore said:

I'm assuming this is coming from your angst shared in the Fractured Online thread? Ever thought about doing a guest blog?

I would enjoy reading such content. Some of the regular and older posters on this site bring a unique (sometimes colorful) perspective that I enjoy "hearing". Might not always agree with but insightful just the same. Hell, that's one of the main reasons I continue to visit here. 

Wargfoot

lotrlore said:

I'm assuming this is coming from your angst shared in the Fractured Online thread? Ever thought about doing a guest blog?

If I throw $800 at a game and still fail to get the developer's ear, I doubt my ranting on MMORPG will matter.  That's not a knock to MMORPG, it's just my money doesn't matter to them, so I doubt they care about my thoughts on the matter.  I told them I was willing to blow another $600.00 that week, but I lost out to people who spent $24 and quit three months ago.

Here is a piece of advice:

Bind up your ideas into a nice presentation, pitch it to 500 people, then sit on a stool in the center of a cold, dark room while they call you stupid, accuse you of unnatural relations with the neighbor's dog, and pelt you with rotten fruit - for 6 months.

If you insist on standing by your vision after that, you're ready to begin development.

lotrlore

MadBomber13 said:

lotrlore said:

I'm assuming this is coming from your angst shared in the Fractured Online thread? Ever thought about doing a guest blog?

I would enjoy reading such content. Some of the regular and older posters on this site bring a unique (sometimes colorful) perspective that I enjoy "hearing". Might not always agree with but insightful just the same. Hell, that's one of the main reasons I continue to visit here. 

Honestly, while this call was directed more to Warg due to this thread, we're open to guest submissions from our community - so anyone reading this has an idea and wants to write about it, pitch me in a DM here on the forums - might even be able to pay you for your time.

Wargfoot said:

lotrlore said:

I'm assuming this is coming from your angst shared in the Fractured Online thread? Ever thought about doing a guest blog?

If I throw $800 at a game and still fail to get the developer's ear, I doubt my ranting on MMORPG will matter.  That's not a knock to MMORPG, it's just my money doesn't matter to them, so I doubt they care about my thoughts on the matter.  I told them I was willing to blow another $600.00 that week, but I lost out to people who spent $24 and quit three months ago.

Here is a piece of advice:

Bind up your ideas into a nice presentation, pitch it to 500 people, then sit on a stool in the center of a cold, dark room while they call you stupid, accuse you of unnatural relations with the neighbor's dog, and pelt you with rotten fruit - for 6 months.

If you insist on standing by your vision after that, you're ready to begin development.

Fair enough, but the offer still stands if you want to get more off your chest!

Tiller

Shania Twain and Raph Koster once said...

(You) dance with the one who brought you.

Developers trying to change things for this mythical missing playerbase they think is just on the fence after they establish the who is interested in their game from launch rarely works out.

Wargfoot

Tiller said:

Shania Twain and Raph Koster once said...

(You) dance with the one who brought you.

Developers trying to change things for this mythical missing playerbase they think is just on the fence after they establish the who is interested in their game from launch rarely works out.

What kills me is in this case it's people who've already tried the game and left.

I remember New World doing something similar, I liked the game well enough but downshifted to trade when other elements weren't working out. A key part of that trade is regional markets - which they removed because it was too much work for some people to travel the world.

I guess they now have teleporters everywhere - because a unified auction house was still too inconvenient.

Another case of trading out someone who wanted to spend the long term in the game for people who find your world too tedious to travel through - clearly those people didn't stick around either.  They never do.

There is this weird push from the 'end game' crowd who see everything short of max level/gear/mobs as a total waste of time.   Don't cater to people who see 99% of what you've done as a 'grind'.  The 'grind' is the GAME and if they don't like it, they don't like your game. Period.

Again, if some 'end game' moron complains about not being able to blow past 95% of your content to get to the last bit - he's NOT A FAN OF YOUR GAME.  Meanwhile, the people who enjoy your game as is end up getting everything sped up and ruined to placate people who will blow through 2 dozen titles this year.

So, in deciding who you're going to listen to have the players list the top three games they played and the length of time they spent in each game.  Ignore anyone who doesn't have a game on that list where they lasted two years.  Ignore the tourists.

Theocritus

"Immediately ban toxic members of the community.  Why on earth these assholes are tolerated is beyond me.  If some guy comes into discord and says "ded game" three times a week and that's his only contribution, then ban him. Simple."

This reminds me of a game I tried a few years ago....I cant remember the name of it but it had something to do with computer programming and using it to defeat the other team.....Anyway, it had a very small community and needed 20 people or so to play a match.....You could tell new players from vets by their level....IT was not an easy game to learn like most are.

One of the vets did nothing but go on a personal profanity laced tirade against new players, often screaming profanities at them and demanding they all leave, and the devs did nothing..... When I wrote my evaluation of the game I mentioned that they had a player that was driving others away, told them how many players he personally had swore at and demanded they leave, and they did nothing.

I think it was this player's mission to personally do everything to destroy this game, and the devs did nothing to stop it.

Wargfoot

Theocritus said:

"Immediately ban toxic members of the community.  Why on earth these assholes are tolerated is beyond me.  If some guy comes into discord and says "ded game" three times a week and that's his only contribution, then ban him. Simple."

This reminds me of a game I tried a few years ago....I cant remember the name of it but it had something to do with computer programming and using it to defeat the other team.....Anyway, it had a very small community and needed 20 people or so to play a match.....You could tell new players from vets by their level....IT was not an easy game to learn like most are.

One of the vets did nothing but go on a personal profanity laced tirade against new players, often screaming profanities at them and demanding they all leave, and the devs did nothing..... When I wrote my evaluation of the game I mentioned that they had a player that was driving others away, told them how many players he personally had swore at and demanded they leave, and they did nothing.

I think it was this player's mission to personally do everything to destroy this game, and the devs did nothing to stop it.

There is a sheepishness to violate the concept of "Free Speech" - a misunderstanding of the idea, but it is ingrained in Americans at least (1) to let the other person speak.

I'm shocked so many developers pay for servers and such and let people actively tear it all down.


NOTES
-----------------------------------------------------------
1: Well, most Americans, the young these days don't really honor it.

Sovrath

Wargfoot said:

Theocritus said:

"Immediately ban toxic members of the community.  Why on earth these assholes are tolerated is beyond me.  If some guy comes into discord and says "ded game" three times a week and that's his only contribution, then ban him. Simple."

This reminds me of a game I tried a few years ago....I cant remember the name of it but it had something to do with computer programming and using it to defeat the other team.....Anyway, it had a very small community and needed 20 people or so to play a match.....You could tell new players from vets by their level....IT was not an easy game to learn like most are.

One of the vets did nothing but go on a personal profanity laced tirade against new players, often screaming profanities at them and demanding they all leave, and the devs did nothing..... When I wrote my evaluation of the game I mentioned that they had a player that was driving others away, told them how many players he personally had swore at and demanded they leave, and they did nothing.

I think it was this player's mission to personally do everything to destroy this game, and the devs did nothing to stop it.

There is a sheepishness to violate the concept of "Free Speech" - a misunderstanding of the idea, but it is ingrained in Americans at least (1) to let the other person speak.

I'm shocked so many developers pay for servers and such and let people actively tear it all down.


NOTES
-----------------------------------------------------------
1: Well, most Americans, the young these days don't really honor it.

A lot of people don't understand what "free speech" means. They really think they can say anything they want, anywhere they want and people have to suffer their opinions.

As far as the original post, to play Devil's advocate, what would the incentive for developers be for doing what you think they should do?

Keep in mind, what you say seems like common sense. But I don't think a certain group of developers have that common sense. Heck, I imagine a lot of them don't even have people skills.

Some of them are just "taking a risk." They think they can do it, they are excited to do it, and they just "do it." They don't want to fail but they are fine walking away if they do fail.

Sometimes, a certain type of creator would "like" to stick to their original design but they are ok bending it or changing things if they think it will be more successful. They are motivated more by success if push comes to shove.

It's funny, I keep getting people reaching out to me asking me to change my Skyrim mod. I even have someone who likes the mod (though he made the aforementioned suggestion) but was wondering why I have all these disclaimers on my mod page., The disclaimers basically spell out what the mod is about and who might like it. And ... dun, dun, dunnnnn ... who might hate it.

I don't think developers do that because they want people to try it. They are betting on someone who might hate it actually liking it. If they are clear what the game is about they will scare away those people who very well might be converted.

In my case, I'd rather scare people away than deal with their ire! But I don't have to make a living doing game development .

Wargfoot

Sovrath said:

As far as the original post, to play Devil's advocate, what would the incentive for developers be for doing what you think they should do?

I think most of my points are just solid business sense.

As for what I want developers to do?  Just build the game you want to build, defend that vision, and roll in incremental changes that all work towards that vision.  I'd point to NMS as an example of that strategy working.

Don't listen to the people who clearly don't get it.

The incentive is realizing your vision - win or lose - instead of chasing the whims of people who are here today and gone tomorrow.

I'm not sure what you're looking for, perhaps.
I don't think a developer should come to me for design advice.

Wargfoot

Sovrath said:

It's funny, I keep getting people reaching out to me asking me to change my Skyrim mod. I even have someone who likes the mod (though he made the aforementioned suggestion) but was wondering why I have all these disclaimers on my mod page., The disclaimers basically spell out what the mod is about and who might like it. And ... dun, dun, dunnnnn ... who might hate it.

We definitely need more of this - be up front about the sort of people who are going to hate the game and invite them to seek another title.

They just turn your discord into a dumpster fire.

Sovrath

Wargfoot said:

I think most of my points are just solid business sense.

As for what I want developers to do?  Just build the game you want to build, defend that vision, and roll in incremental changes that all work towards that vision.  I'd point to NMS as an example of that strategy working.

Don't listen to the people who clearly don't get it.

The incentive is realizing your vision - win or lose - instead of chasing the whims of people who are here today and gone tomorrow.

I'm not sure what you're looking for, perhaps.
I don't think a developer should come to me for design advice.

Well, exactly. It's how "I" would do it. Solid business sense. But they don't really do it. At least, I don't see many developers doing it.

I remember some developer (a while back) that said they would have regular updates. They were fine for a small bit but then the updates became "not much to show but we're working hard ... "

My thought is "show the damn progress." Even if it's back end stuff. Is there a piece of new artwork? A new npc? Show that. But show something and engage with the players who are interested.

I just don't know if they are "so inside their heads" that they can't think of these things, if they really don't have the ability to follow through with their vision, or they are scared as they want to changes things but know they are going to get crap about it.

I feel being up front that "things can and most likely will change" is a good start.

I should add, they don't feel the need to practice "solid business sense" therefore it just doesn't happen. They don't get it or aren't willing to do it because perhaps they think they know better.

OldKingLog

lotrlore said:

MadBomber13 said:

lotrlore said:

I'm assuming this is coming from your angst shared in the Fractured Online thread? Ever thought about doing a guest blog?

I would enjoy reading such content. Some of the regular and older posters on this site bring a unique (sometimes colorful) perspective that I enjoy "hearing". Might not always agree with but insightful just the same. Hell, that's one of the main reasons I continue to visit here. 

Honestly, while this call was directed more to Warg due to this thread, we're open to guest submissions from our community - so anyone reading this has an idea and wants to write about it, pitch me in a DM here on the forums - might even be able to pay you for your time.

Really? What an interesting idea ...

My friends who know me too well ...

Scot

Wargfoot said:

Sovrath said:

It's funny, I keep getting people reaching out to me asking me to change my Skyrim mod. I even have someone who likes the mod (though he made the aforementioned suggestion) but was wondering why I have all these disclaimers on my mod page., The disclaimers basically spell out what the mod is about and who might like it. And ... dun, dun, dunnnnn ... who might hate it.

We definitely need more of this - be up front about the sort of people who are going to hate the game and invite them to seek another title.

They just turn your discord into a dumpster fire.

You do realise they won't "seek another title"? They will bang on about how all games must be made the way they like them. We have this all the time from solo to PvE, it must be done their way.

Now obviously I am a group and PvP guy, but I still think MMOs are best when they are hybrids, secure those PvE zones from PvP and the game can't be groping only.

But what I find is players are very parochial, even if the gameplay they don't like is somewhere else and does not effect them they still want to get rid of it.

Wargfoot

Scot said:

But what I find is players are very parochial, even if the gameplay they don't like is somewhere else and does not effect them they still want to get rid of it.

This.
This has to be one of the strangest things I've noticed in these games - and while I'll pick on the PvP crowd a bit here, the truth is it exists on both sides of the aisle.

The efforts that members of the community went through to try and devise a way to lure PvE players into PvP zones is astonishing to me.  A 30% increase in rewards, more gold, [fill in the blank], it all sounded like some creepy middle-aged guy trying to lure children into a van.

And you're correct in your wording - they want to "get rid of it" entirely.

We had the regular chestnuts thrown out there:

"Why don't you just go play cookie-clicker?"

"Are you afraid of a challenge?"

"Too many low testosterone Karens in this game" (1)

I tried to explain to them that if I spent my days bagging groceries at WalMart I'd probably want a challenging game; however, I get enough of a challenge at my day job and use gaming to relax. 

That sort of comment advanced the conversation as much as you'd expect.







NOTES:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
1: If I'm being honest, I like my Karens with very low testosterone.

Kyleran

Wargfoot said:

Sovrath said:

As far as the original post, to play Devil's advocate, what would the incentive for developers be for doing what you think they should do?

I think most of my points are just solid business sense.

As for what I want developers to do?  Just build the game you want to build, defend that vision, and roll in incremental changes that all work towards that vision.  I'd point to NMS as an example of that strategy working.

Don't listen to the people who clearly don't get it.

The incentive is realizing your vision - win or lose - instead of chasing the whims of people who are here today and gone tomorrow.

I'm not sure what you're looking for, perhaps.
I don't think a developer should come to me for design advice.

Wait, wut? Title of this thread is 

Advice For Developers.

Wargfoot

Kyleran said:

Wait, wut? Title of this thread is 

Advice For Developers.

I've contacted the people over at Eve and requested a permanent ban for you.

Scot

It's in all gaming of course, game comes out third person "I'm out!", comes out first person "I'm out". I myself will drop out if there is too much survival, but I think that's a genre choice, good luck to those who like it.

Wargfoot

Scot said:

It's in all gaming of course, game comes out third person "I'm out!", comes out first person "I'm out". I myself will drop out if there is too much survival, but I think that's a genre choice, good luck to those who like it.

I imagine you wouldn't "drop out".
You simply wouldn't have bought the title in the first place.

Scot

Wargfoot said:

Scot said:

It's in all gaming of course, game comes out third person "I'm out!", comes out first person "I'm out". I myself will drop out if there is too much survival, but I think that's a genre choice, good luck to those who like it.

I imagine you wouldn't "drop out".
You simply wouldn't have bought the title in the first place.

I was thinking of interest before launch, yes I would not buy.

Slapshot1188

Wargfoot said:

Kyleran said:

Wait, wut? Title of this thread is 

Advice For Developers.

I've contacted the people over at Eve and requested a permanent ban for you.

Reminds me of when Starvault was caught plagiarizing EVE's TOS and said they could ban EVE players.   

Quote:

YOU ACKNOWLEDGE THAT TERMINATION OF YOUR ACCOUNT BY STAR VAULT OR ONE OF ITS AUTHORIZED REPRESENTATIVES MAY RESULT FROM FAILURE TO ABIDE BY THESE RULES. SUCH TERMINATION WILL NOT ENTITLE YOU TO A REFUND OF ANY FEES PAID BY YOU FOR THE USE OF THE EVE ONLINE CLIENT, SERVERS OR WEB SITE. YOU WILL FORFEIT ANY UNUSED GAME TIME REMAINING AT THE TIME OF TERMINATION.

Slapshot1188

Scot said:

Wargfoot said:

Scot said:

It's in all gaming of course, game comes out third person "I'm out!", comes out first person "I'm out". I myself will drop out if there is too much survival, but I think that's a genre choice, good luck to those who like it.

I imagine you wouldn't "drop out".
You simply wouldn't have bought the title in the first place.

I was thinking of interest before launch, yes I would not buy.

 'Tis better to have loved and lost

Than never to have loved at all.

Wargfoot

Slapshot1188 said:

Wargfoot said:

Kyleran said:

Wait, wut? Title of this thread is 

Advice For Developers.

I've contacted the people over at Eve and requested a permanent ban for you.

Reminds me of when Starvault was caught plagiarizing EVE's TOS and said they could ban EVE players.   

Quote:

YOU ACKNOWLEDGE THAT TERMINATION OF YOUR ACCOUNT BY STAR VAULT OR ONE OF ITS AUTHORIZED REPRESENTATIVES MAY RESULT FROM FAILURE TO ABIDE BY THESE RULES. SUCH TERMINATION WILL NOT ENTITLE YOU TO A REFUND OF ANY FEES PAID BY YOU FOR THE USE OF THE EVE ONLINE CLIENT, SERVERS OR WEB SITE. YOU WILL FORFEIT ANY UNUSED GAME TIME REMAINING AT THE TIME OF TERMINATION.

The TOS is technically accurate.
They wouldn't be eligible for fees they paid for the EVE client.

What disgusts me isn't the theft, but that they're too lazy to run a quick 'find' on the word 'Eve'.  It isn't that difficult.

Kyleran

Starvault has always been a low effort studio, still to this day I think.

Wargfoot

Kyleran said:

Starvault has always been a low effort studio, still to this day I think.

On the plus side, when the PvP knuckle-draggers talk about my current title not being 'hardcore', I always get to invite them to go play Mortal.

If that is all Starvault provides for me, that is enough.