Raph Koster Outlines Top Development Pillars for Immersive Sandbox MMO Stars Reach | MMORPG.com

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Raph Koster Outlines Top Development Pillars for Immersive Sandbox MMO Stars Reach | MMORPG.com

Raph Koster talks design pillars for Playable Worlds' upcoming MMO, Stars Reach, from creating an alive simulated world to having a sense of history, interdependence, and a move away from a theme park to look at.

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Dattelis

Words are nice

Scot

Ralph talks about simulation and stagecraft which is very alike to what I think of as Gameplay and Sleight of Hand (he sees simulation as creating emerging gameplay). There is always a trade off between pairs of factors like these, he has clearly worked that out but as he near enough says himself it will be down to the implementation.

I am also pleased to see that he realises how detrimental streamers can be to games, the community should be in game and in social media attached to the game not with streamers. But I think he misses an opportunity with guilds, playing them down by allowing multiple guild membership and well not using them. He has plans in place to stand in for guilds, but they will be too diffuse, you can't have multiple loyalties every which way without diluting them all.

Overall some solid thinking about how the sort of game he wants to make should be created, look forward to seeing how he puts that vision into practice, it won't be easy!

Slapshot1188

Last week called.  They want their news back:  https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/505696/raph-releases-stars-reach-game-pillars-part-1#latest

Scot

It seems I missed another thread, as I am feeling a bit lazy today...Copy and Paste.

cameltosis

Scot said:

Ralph talks .....

I'm curious, is this accidental or on purpose?

His name is "Raph", not "Ralph", but you consistently call him Ralph!

If it's on purpuse, could you explain? Am i missing a joke? Or do u just have Wreck-it-Ralph on the mind?

Angrakhan

If he's like me and commenting from his phone, it may be autocorrect. My phone constantly mis-auto corrects words. It literally just did it by splitting auto and correct. That's not how I typed it. If I start a sentence with "well" it will autocorrect to "we'll". Point being his phone may be autocorrecting "Raph" to "Ralph" and he either didn't notice or just too warn out by it to go fix it.  It's pretty exhausting.

Angrakhan

I think maybe something Raph is overestimating is people's tolerance for interdependence in an MMO. Gamers these days are looking for that quick fix of endorphins. They're used to their doom scrolling trying to find that funny or interesting thing every 30 seconds. Real human relationships take time and I don't know that a lot of people have the time to invest for relationships that are both online and anonymous. Those relationships are very ephemeral and can disappear in a moment. If someone gets bored or wants to play an alt or real life takes over then that relationship you came to rely upon can disappear in a moment. In real life it's not so easy for your best friend or your coworker or the manager of the restaurant you enjoy to just vanish. Point being I think people are very hesitant to invest deeply in online relationships and with good reasons. Yet that's one of the pillars Raph is basing the foundation of his game on. Seems like a shaky foundation.

I totally get what he's going for as well. I remember back in Vanilla DAoC when the whole economy was player based. End game content was about acquiring high end mats, not gear, and you had to know the high end crafters who could make what you needed. Also player housing was/is not instanced in DAoC. I had a whole notebook of the top crafters and the address of their shops.

Of course Mark Jacobs made one of the biggest blunders in MMO history with his first expansion which introduced high end raid gear that was soul bound and couldn't be crafting obsoleting the entire player driven economy. The ensuing mass exodus from the game was devastating and the game never recovered. The classic servers were too little too late.

But that's just the other side of why people are reluctant to become interdependent on other players because the very next expac my make all the investment obsolete.

I think his game will have a dedicated niche following, but the masses will stick with their disposable content theme park games.

Tiller

Angrakhan said:

I think maybe something Raph is overestimating is people's tolerance for interdependence in an MMO. Gamers these days are looking for that quick fix of endorphins. They're used to their doom scrolling trying to find that funny or interesting thing every 30 seconds. Real human relationships take time and I don't know that a lot of people have the time to invest for relationships that are both online and anonymous. Those relationships are very ephemeral and can disappear in a moment. If someone gets bored or wants to play an alt or real life takes over then that relationship you came to rely upon can disappear in a moment. In real life it's not so easy for your best friend or your coworker or the manager of the restaurant you enjoy to just vanish. Point being I think people are very hesitant to invest deeply in online relationships and with good reasons. Yet that's one of the pillars Raph is basing the foundation of his game on. Seems like a shaky foundation.

I totally get what he's going for as well. I remember back in Vanilla DAoC when the whole economy was player based. End game content was about acquiring high end mats, not gear, and you had to know the high end crafters who could make what you needed. Also player housing was/is not instanced in DAoC. I had a whole notebook of the top crafters and the address of their shops.

Of course Mark Jacobs made one of the biggest blunders in MMO history with his first expansion which introduced high end raid gear that was soul bound and couldn't be crafting obsoleting the entire player driven economy. The ensuing mass exodus from the game was devastating and the game never recovered. The classic servers were too little too late.

But that's just the other side of why people are reluctant to become interdependent on other players because the very next expac my make all the investment obsolete.

I think his game will have a dedicated niche following, but the masses will stick with their disposable content theme park games.

Well there are a few of them, and they are mostly playing A Tale in the Desert.

Sovrath

Angrakhan said:

I think maybe something Raph is overestimating is people's tolerance for interdependence in an MMO. Gamers these days are looking for that quick fix of endorphins. They're used to their doom scrolling trying to find that funny or interesting thing every 30 seconds. 

I think it depends on who his audience is.

As long as he’s realistic about his audience and the revenue from the this audience he’ll be fine.

Scot

cameltosis said:

Scot said:

Ralph talks .....

I'm curious, is this accidental or on purpose?

His name is "Raph", not "Ralph", but you consistently call him Ralph!

If it's on purpuse, could you explain? Am i missing a joke? Or do u just have Wreck-it-Ralph on the mind?

I keep doing that, not auto correct as suggested and nope he is not the "Donkey Kong" guy.

Will. Try. To. Remember.

lotrlore

Slapshot1188 said:

Last week called.  They want their news back:  https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/505696/raph-releases-stars-reach-game-pillars-part-1#latest

I was on vacation, but we very clearly missed that. I'll throw a mention in the article when I'm back in the office this morning. 

Also, the Stars Reach forums should be live now.

Amaranthar

Angrakhan said:

I think maybe something Raph is overestimating is people's tolerance for interdependence in an MMO. Gamers these days are looking for that quick fix of endorphins. They're used to their doom scrolling trying to find that funny or interesting thing every 30 seconds. Real human relationships take time and I don't know that a lot of people have the time to invest for relationships that are both online and anonymous. Those relationships are very ephemeral and can disappear in a moment. If someone gets bored or wants to play an alt or real life takes over then that relationship you came to rely upon can disappear in a moment. In real life it's not so easy for your best friend or your coworker or the manager of the restaurant you enjoy to just vanish. Point being I think people are very hesitant to invest deeply in online relationships and with good reasons. Yet that's one of the pillars Raph is basing the foundation of his game on. Seems like a shaky foundation.

I totally get what he's going for as well. I remember back in Vanilla DAoC when the whole economy was player based. End game content was about acquiring high end mats, not gear, and you had to know the high end crafters who could make what you needed. Also player housing was/is not instanced in DAoC. I had a whole notebook of the top crafters and the address of their shops.

Of course Mark Jacobs made one of the biggest blunders in MMO history with his first expansion which introduced high end raid gear that was soul bound and couldn't be crafting obsoleting the entire player driven economy. The ensuing mass exodus from the game was devastating and the game never recovered. The classic servers were too little too late.

But that's just the other side of why people are reluctant to become interdependent on other players because the very next expac my make all the investment obsolete.

I think his game will have a dedicated niche following, but the masses will stick with their disposable content theme park games.

I think Raph's going for Planets-as-Guild-Associations.
So a player, working within a Planet, has an automatic grouping of aligned Guilds to work with. 
I'm thinking of Guilds like Smithing Guilds, Carpenter Guilds, Farmer's Guilds, etc. 

So a player has this instant group of crafters (or whatever he needs) to fill his needs, and if one leaves there's more options for the same thing. 

Think of Cities here. 
I think part of game play will be to take control of a Planet, I don't think that's going to be as easy as folks think. 

Raph

Angrakhan said:

I think maybe something Raph is overestimating is people's tolerance for interdependence in an MMO. Gamers these days are looking for that quick fix of endorphins. They're used to their doom scrolling trying to find that funny or interesting thing every 30 seconds. Real human relationships take time...

That's why we are aiming for play sessions as short as five minutes.

We are very much guided by the research on friendships that we did while I worked with Google: https://www.raphkoster.com/2018/03/16/the-trust-spectrum/

We are trying to give

• opportunities for interdependence when doing sessions, like party structures and groups
• but in ways where instead you can "load out" in a more flexible way and go solo. So you can decide "do I want a team of five specialists that only works if we are all here? or a group of five where each of us is independent, but we still get group synergies?"
• and then most of the more interdependence can happen in asynch ways, which lets us put in compensatory mechanisms if no player is providing the needed good or service.
  

OldKingLog

Dattelis said:

Words are nice

They are aren't they. Though to be honest before attempting such a project they are necessary. 

"Modest beginnings start with a single blow of a horn, man"

Scot

Dattelis said:

Words are nice

If words are nice, more are better, get posting.

ValdemarJ

5 minute play sessions. lulz

Scot

ValdemarJ said:

5 minute play sessions. lulz

Yes, I did have concerns about that myself, there is casual, there is super casual and there is Star Reach casual it seems.

Raph

Scot said:

ValdemarJ said:

5 minute play sessions. lulz

Yes, I did have concerns about that myself, there is casual, there is super casual and there is Star Reach casual it seems.

You shoot for five, you hit 15m.

More seriously -- something like just restocking a shop, or jumping in to start a asynch offline process, should be possible in a short session... do you disagree that's something worth supporting? I'm curious to hear why the concerns.

cameltosis

Raph said:

Scot said:

ValdemarJ said:

5 minute play sessions. lulz

Yes, I did have concerns about that myself, there is casual, there is super casual and there is Star Reach casual it seems.

You shoot for five, you hit 15m.

More seriously -- something like just restocking a shop, or jumping in to start a asynch offline process, should be possible in a short session... do you disagree that's something worth supporting? I'm curious to hear why the concerns.

I'm gonna guess it's a perception thing about what is involved in a playsession.

As a combat-focused player myself, a 5 minute session involving combat sounds awful. Thats like 1 quest in a typical themepark, or half a battleground arena. 5 minutes is like the warmup, whilst I remember how to play, so my fingers get used to the keybinds again.

But, as someone who still maintains a shop in SWGEmu, I totally get what you are saying. I often only log in for 5 minutes to check my mail, re-list expired items on my vendors, or start a new run on one of my factories.

But I don't think of that as a playsession - even tho it totally is! - I think of that as housekeeping. I do it so that when I do have time for a proper playsession, i don't need to spend time on the house keeping, I can instead focus on farming some nightsisters, or running the Geo labs again.

ValdemarJ

A lot of games have activities that can take under 5 minutes. Are we really going to say that it's both meaningful and meaningless at the same time?

Saying that a Play Session is basically anything that can happen between log on and off, is like saying everything multiplayer is an MMO. If the phrase is flexible enough to to fit almost any occasion, then it really isn't of any value.

So why point out that the game is doing 5 minute play sessions if they really don't mean anything? This is why the theory crafting discussions have become tiresome. It would be interesting if there were an actual game; something concrete to reference.

Tiller

ValdemarJ said:

A lot of games have activities that can take under 5 minutes. Are we really going to say that it's both meaningful and meaningless at the same time?

Saying that a Play Session is basically anything that can happen between log on and off, is like saying everything multiplayer is an MMO. If the phrase is flexible enough to to fit almost any occasion, then it really isn't of any value.

So why point out that the game is doing 5 minute play sessions if they really don't mean anything? This is why the theory crafting discussions have become tiresome. It would be interesting if there were an actual game; something concrete to reference.

For me that's logging in to collect a reward for a game I no longer play, or in the case of Star Trek Online starting training or doing an event which could take up to 30min. Honestly though by this point I've put the game into maintenance mode.

Scot

Raph said:

You shoot for five, you hit 15m.

More seriously -- something like just restocking a shop, or jumping in to start a asynch offline process, should be possible in a short session... do you disagree that's something worth supporting? I'm curious to hear why the concerns.

I actually would take luring someone in for five mins so they end up staying a lot longer seriously. Any good game should make you want to stay that bit longer.

My concern revolves around the fact that after MMORPG's went from group to solo focus they also began the journey from time intensive to casual. Grouping takes more time, that got kicked, soloers then over the years have expected to do more and more with less time spent in game. So something like meaningful 5 minute sessions sends up a red balloon, but doing something like shop management is fine.

Wargfoot

I appreciate Raph for two reasons:

1. He's airing his ideas in the community.
2. A great deal of thought is being put into the design.

What detracts from this a little bit is the game probably being several years off.   I hope this same level of communication is evident on the Steam page, on the game's website, and so forth.   Clear, specific design choices tied to in-game mechanics communicated on a web page at the time of game launch - would be refreshing.

Simple statements like "Our goal is to see this type of game play [insert that here], and to design a world that discourages [insert activity here]" will help find the proper audience.

And for the love of gaming, get GMs who understand the vision and defend it on the game's forum.  It would be refreshing to have a GM say, "Thanks for your thoughts, this game currently isn't for you, and it will never be for you."

Furthermore, if Raph isn't going to define a vision and stick to it and defend it  - all the writing here means literally nothing.

Let me know when it launches.
Until then, nothing to see.

Angrakhan

That's not realistic to have a GM be that frank with a customer unless said customer is being abusive or cheating in some way. They're going to want as much revenue as possible and will cast as wide a net as possible. The game will be for "everyone". You already see this with the 5-minute game session discussion. Who can't invest 5 minutes into a game? 

Wargfoot

Angrakhan said:

That's not realistic to have a GM be that frank with a customer unless said customer is being abusive or cheating in some way. They're going to want as much revenue as possible and will cast as wide a net as possible. The game will be for "everyone". You already see this with the 5-minute game session discussion. Who can't invest 5 minutes into a game? 

If you're not frank with the customer base you end up with bad reviews or a really negative person hanging around the discord stirring up ill will.

Just cut 'em lose ASAP.