Monsters & Memories? Tell me what you think!

mikeb0817

This one has really caught my eye. For some reason it wasn't on my radar, and reading an article about it last week I got super excited. Even more so when I was able to Sign-Up and Download the client. The character creator gave me a huge EQ hard-on and now I'm left with blue balls as I realize the game is limited to test windows.. 

My thirst for more knowledge feels unquenchable.. if you've had access, please jfc, gimme a taste
.. what was it like?

Tokken

I'm definitely looking forward to playing MnM. I haven't played it yet but I have watched plenty of videos.... I like what I see. 

KnightFalz

I'd rather play any existing old school game. Nothing I've played from when Ultima Online was sold in boxes on retail shelves is more punishing than even the most basic of encounters in M&M when I gave it a try not long ago.

That isn't necessarily bad but is extremely unsuited to my personal preference.

Brainy

KnightFalz said:

I'd rather play any existing old school game. Nothing I've played from when Ultima Online was sold in boxes on retail shelves is more punishing than even the most basic of encounters in M&M when I gave it a try not long ago.

That isn't necessarily bad but is extremely unsuited to my personal preference.

Mob difficulty? Yeah that sounds awesome to me.

However whats QoL look like?
1) Do they have a way to summon people to the party, also hearth stones to teleport to town.
Me and my friends are not going to spend our limited playtime running for 30+ minutes just to find a place to kill stuff.

2) What about inventory.  Are they limiting inventory/stack sizes?
Hate when games use inventory management to replace content.

3) Do you lose your inventory on death?  
Another bad mechanic.

If these 3 things are solved, then I definitely will give the game a go, and bring some friends with me.  Otherwise I will wait until after launch and the devs have no players and watch as they put these basic QoL into the game, due to lack of players.

mikeb0817

The difficulty is part of the draw for me. There are a lot of newer games that I missed at launch that are in complete easy mode and it turns me off. SWTOR is one that I recently tried out. I love me some Star Wars so the setting was perfect, but the game is so easy it's boring. I'm definitely looking forward to having to learn how to play the game to be effective, not just roll my face across the keyboard.

Was the combat so difficult that grouping was absolutely necessary 100% of the time? 

Restricted inventory would turn me off, but I'm okay with a corpse run to get back lost exp, maybe not my inventory items though.

Dibdabs

Looks like mild fun, but not worth a subscription to me.

Sovrath

Brainy said:

3) Do you lose your inventory on death?  
Another bad mechanic.

Then what would be a suitable death penalty?

Brainy

Sovrath said:

Brainy said:

3) Do you lose your inventory on death?  
Another bad mechanic.

Then what would be a suitable death penalty?

1. I am cool with xp loss that can be returned when you pickup your gravestone. (As long as the gravestone will always be there for you to pickup later if you want)
2. Durability loss (if its equal on all classes and not biased against plate wearers).
3. Repair bills (this may or may not be related to #2)
4. Getting ported to a "nearby" graveyard.  So you are forced to fight your way back to where you were if you want to recover the xp.

All these are fine to me.

I can probably deal with other mechanics as well as long as its not a permanent loss where you lose everything if you fall in lava or off a cliff.  To me losing stuff forever is boneheaded, unless its a minor amount of gold sink.

And above all, get rid of the naked corpse run, where you have to run through mobs naked just to get your stuff back, how stupid is that mechanic.

olepi

mikeb0817 said:

The difficulty is part of the draw for me. There are a lot of newer games that I missed at launch that are in complete easy mode and it turns me off. SWTOR is one that I recently tried out. I love me some Star Wars so the setting was perfect, but the game is so easy it's boring. I'm definitely looking forward to having to learn how to play the game to be effective, not just roll my face across the keyboard.

Was the combat so difficult that grouping was absolutely necessary 100% of the time? 

Restricted inventory would turn me off, but I'm okay with a corpse run to get back lost exp, maybe not my inventory items though.

i like games that give the player a choice of difficulty. In old school DAOC, mobs were marked with their level, from gray to purple. Gray was nothing, green was almost nothing with minimal xp, blue was something but still easy, white was supposed to be your level, yellow is harder, orange harder, red harder, and purple basically impossible for a single player. 

You can choose what you want to fight. 

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

Sovrath

Brainy said:

Sovrath said:

Brainy said:

3) Do you lose your inventory on death?  
Another bad mechanic.

Then what would be a suitable death penalty?

1. I am cool with xp loss that can be returned when you pickup your gravestone. (As long as the gravestone will always be there for you to pickup later if you want)
2. Durability loss (if its equal on all classes and not biased against plate wearers).
3. Repair bills (this may or may not be related to #2)
4. Getting ported to a "nearby" graveyard.  So you are forced to fight your way back to where you were if you want to recover the xp.

All these are fine to me.

I can probably deal with other mechanics as well as long as its not a permanent loss where you lose everything if you fall in lava or off a cliff.  To me losing stuff forever is boneheaded, unless its a minor amount of gold sink.

And above all, get rid of the naked corpse run, where you have to run through mobs naked just to get your stuff back, how stupid is that mechanic.

Well, I disagree with you regarding "losing stuff forever" but I enjoy more hardcore games.

I also like the idea that, if you fall to an intelligent mob, that it takes some of your stuff and you have to find it and get it back.

Some of the most fun I've had was running through a dangerous place, not having my armor because it dropped, and then having to retrieve it.

Just different strokes I guess.

Quizzical

The problem with severe death penalties is that they discourage players from trying anything challenging.  They make it so that the optimal strategy is to pick something easy so that you won't die and then grind it forever, which is boring.  A mild death penalty doesn't have the same effects.  And, of course, some games are tuned to make everything easy outside of the endgame, which is even worse.

Sovrath

Quizzical said:

The problem with severe death penalties is that they discourage players from trying anything challenging.  They make it so that the optimal strategy is to pick something easy so that you won't die and then grind it forever, which is boring.  A mild death penalty doesn't have the same effects.  And, of course, some games are tuned to make everything easy outside of the endgame, which is even worse.

That's probably true. I'm not wired that way but there are plenty of people who are.

The challenge is to make a "mild" death penalty and not an easy one. I find exp loss where you get it all back if you get your corpse not much of a penalty at all.

I wonder if an extra mechanic, such as getting some sort of game bonus or points or something would help.

Perhaps certain encounters are considered a challenge. Or if they are done with a less than stellar group then they flag as "challenge." If a group or individual succeeds they get some sort of bonus. If they fail they get the standard death penalty "but" they get some sort of points that could be used in some way positive.

Not really sure what that would be.

cameltosis

Meh, why do we need death penalties?

Losing by itself can feel like a penalty. The time you lose running back to where u were fighting can feel like a penalty.

For me, I don't want players to be discouraged from taking on challenging content. Because taking on a challenge, pushing yourself to get better, and then succeeding.....well, thats what provides players with a big buzz. That's what makes many of us feel good.

If we can encourage gamers to take on more challenging content, if the game can somehow tutor them to become better players, well, maybe the devs will start creating more challenging content, rather than the usual EZ mode crap we keep getting.

KnightFalz

Brainy said:

KnightFalz said:

I'd rather play any existing old school game. Nothing I've played from when Ultima Online was sold in boxes on retail shelves is more punishing than even the most basic of encounters in M&M when I gave it a try not long ago.

That isn't necessarily bad but is extremely unsuited to my personal preference.

Mob difficulty? Yeah that sounds awesome to me.

However whats QoL look like?
1) Do they have a way to summon people to the party, also hearth stones to teleport to town.
Me and my friends are not going to spend our limited playtime running for 30+ minutes just to find a place to kill stuff.

2) What about inventory.  Are they limiting inventory/stack sizes?
Hate when games use inventory management to replace content.

3) Do you lose your inventory on death?  
Another bad mechanic.

If these 3 things are solved, then I definitely will give the game a go, and bring some friends with me.  Otherwise I will wait until after launch and the devs have no players and watch as they put these basic QoL into the game, due to lack of players.

I have no idea. As I couldn't even come close to making a dent in the most trivial of creatures on my own I logged out.

I don't mind some difficulty but I expect to be able to slay at least one such creature at a time and still be standing.

If it required two for certain demise I would have pressed on and tried to be much more careful but when needs only one caution is useless.

As I am a soloist I can not answer questions related to grouping. Inventory was quite limited and everything was dropped on death.

mekhere

What an awesome game idea. Its Islam's version of EQ. The game needs a definite graphics update, but it looks promising. This could be a really fun cultural learning curve for kids to learn about the middle east. Good find! I will Alpha for sure. 

Sovrath

cameltosis said:

Meh, why do we need death penalties?

Losing by itself can feel like a penalty. The time you lose running back to where u were fighting can feel like a penalty.

For me, I don't want players to be discouraged from taking on challenging content. Because taking on a challenge, pushing yourself to get better, and then succeeding.....well, thats what provides players with a big buzz. That's what makes many of us feel good.

If we can encourage gamers to take on more challenging content, if the game can somehow tutor them to become better players, well, maybe the devs will start creating more challenging content, rather than the usual EZ mode crap we keep getting.

I don’t really agree. From where I stand there needs to be stakes, something on the line.

it’s more of a “buzz” if you know failure isn’t good and so you overcome and avoid that failure.

Otherwise it’s just die, rinse and repeat until you get it right and move on. 

cameltosis

Sovrath said:

cameltosis said:

Meh, why do we need death penalties?

Losing by itself can feel like a penalty. The time you lose running back to where u were fighting can feel like a penalty.

For me, I don't want players to be discouraged from taking on challenging content. Because taking on a challenge, pushing yourself to get better, and then succeeding.....well, thats what provides players with a big buzz. That's what makes many of us feel good.

If we can encourage gamers to take on more challenging content, if the game can somehow tutor them to become better players, well, maybe the devs will start creating more challenging content, rather than the usual EZ mode crap we keep getting.

I don’t really agree. From where I stand there needs to be stakes, something on the line.

it’s more of a “buzz” if you know failure isn’t good and so you overcome and avoid that failure.

Otherwise it’s just die, rinse and repeat until you get it right and move on. 

I understand completely, and it makes a certain amount of sense.

Where the key difference for me:

"Otherwise it’s just die, rinse and repeat until you get it right"

That attitude means the combat mechanics suck, and therefore having stakes makes sense to add a thrill. But if the combat mechanics are good, if there is a genuine challenge, if you can only succeed by being a good player (rather than getting lucky, or having the best gear) then a death penalty isn't needed. Because you are going to lose quite a few times before you get good enough to succeed, and if you have a genuine death penalty on each of those losses, ur gonna get very annoyed.

Sovrath

cameltosis said:

Sovrath said:

cameltosis said:

Meh, why do we need death penalties?

Losing by itself can feel like a penalty. The time you lose running back to where u were fighting can feel like a penalty.

For me, I don't want players to be discouraged from taking on challenging content. Because taking on a challenge, pushing yourself to get better, and then succeeding.....well, thats what provides players with a big buzz. That's what makes many of us feel good.

If we can encourage gamers to take on more challenging content, if the game can somehow tutor them to become better players, well, maybe the devs will start creating more challenging content, rather than the usual EZ mode crap we keep getting.

I don’t really agree. From where I stand there needs to be stakes, something on the line.

it’s more of a “buzz” if you know failure isn’t good and so you overcome and avoid that failure.

Otherwise it’s just die, rinse and repeat until you get it right and move on. 

I understand completely, and it makes a certain amount of sense.

Where the key difference for me:

"Otherwise it’s just die, rinse and repeat until you get it right"

That attitude means the combat mechanics suck, and therefore having stakes makes sense to add a thrill. But if the combat mechanics are good, if there is a genuine challenge, if you can only succeed by being a good player (rather than getting lucky, or having the best gear) then a death penalty isn't needed. Because you are going to lose quite a few times before you get good enough to succeed, and if you have a genuine death penalty on each of those losses, ur gonna get very annoyed.

I’m not sure that means they suck. We would have to define what good combat even means. 

In any case, just running an encounter until one gets it might give one a feeling of accomplishment without penalty but in my experience having some sort of negative for failure has always made the triumph better.

my wins in dark souls or Elden Ring feel more epic over something like Skyrim.

So sure, winning over losing has its own reward but over the years I’ve found stakes make it all the more interesting.

But that’s a “your mileage may vary “ statement.

Brainy

cameltosis said:

Meh, why do we need death penalties?

Losing by itself can feel like a penalty. The time you lose running back to where u were fighting can feel like a penalty.

For me, I don't want players to be discouraged from taking on challenging content. Because taking on a challenge, pushing yourself to get better, and then succeeding.....well, thats what provides players with a big buzz. That's what makes many of us feel good.

If we can encourage gamers to take on more challenging content, if the game can somehow tutor them to become better players, well, maybe the devs will start creating more challenging content, rather than the usual EZ mode crap we keep getting.

Yeah I agree, having death penalties prevents challenging content.  The two are completely opposing eachother.

Pretty much if someone is asking for harsh death penalties then I know they want EZ mode combat.  They are using the death penalties to substitute for challenge. There is no way to have harsh death penalties and very challenging game combat at the same time.

Unintended

I played it for a couple hours to know I have no interest in it. The reason why I loved EQ for a year back in 00/01 was because it was new and innovative and amazing to be in an online world. The reason I can go back to Project 1999 today is because it's the game I remember, maybe it has some changes, but it's what I remember and have nostalgia for.

So I understand wanting to make a game like that, but a modern take on it. However I do not understand literally trying to mimic it because you're copying all the bad things without the nostalgia. 

I think what will happen is they fail to gain much traction, they lose interest themselves and it never gets completed. It's the sort of thing there are only a few thousand people willing to play it. Like when you go look at old emulators today, you'll only ever see a thousand people on SWG, a few hundred on Project 1999 and tens of people on EQOA. There isn't really an audience for them beyond people logging in for five mins for the memories.

What I'd prefer to see someone do is use WoW as a template and add elements of other MMOs in. WoW still plays perfect today, no one ever got tab target combat done as good as Blizzard. No one ever got the world right as Blizzard did, in fact I cannot even think of a single MMO that felt like it had a proper world post WoW.... Maybe some random Asian one that I haven't played, but no western one. We had all these WoW clones and yet none of them took the good things about WoW and so they failed.

Sovrath

Brainy said:

cameltosis said:

Meh, why do we need death penalties?

Losing by itself can feel like a penalty. The time you lose running back to where u were fighting can feel like a penalty.

For me, I don't want players to be discouraged from taking on challenging content. Because taking on a challenge, pushing yourself to get better, and then succeeding.....well, thats what provides players with a big buzz. That's what makes many of us feel good.

If we can encourage gamers to take on more challenging content, if the game can somehow tutor them to become better players, well, maybe the devs will start creating more challenging content, rather than the usual EZ mode crap we keep getting.

Yeah I agree, having death penalties prevents challenging content.  The two are completely opposing eachother.

Pretty much if someone is asking for harsh death penalties then I know they want EZ mode combat.  They are using the death penalties to substitute for challenge. There is no way to have harsh death penalties and very challenging game combat at the same time.

Ha! You probably shouldn’t talk about stuff you know nothing about. 

Then again maybe someone like me does like ez mode? Are the souls games ez mode? 

I think they got it perfect. You’ve cleared a portion of the area, you have a lot of “souls “ and could push on and risk it if you forget an ambush or accidentally fall off a ledge. 

For me it’s the best combat I’ve experienced. So if that’s ez mode and dying AND running back to retrieve your souls BUT getting killed on the way and losing everything is harsh then “yup” I’m in.

cheyane

I don't think I have another Everquest in me. I had so many friends then. Loads of them stopped playing. It won't be the same and I doubt I want to have that anyway.

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

Sovrath

Kolokoftis said:

Sovrath said:

Brainy said:

cameltosis said:

Meh, why do we need death penalties?

Losing by itself can feel like a penalty. The time you lose running back to where u were fighting can feel like a penalty.

For me, I don't want players to be discouraged from taking on challenging content. Because taking on a challenge, pushing yourself to get better, and then succeeding.....well, thats what provides players with a big buzz. That's what makes many of us feel good.

If we can encourage gamers to take on more challenging content, if the game can somehow tutor them to become better players, well, maybe the devs will start creating more challenging content, rather than the usual EZ mode crap we keep getting.

Yeah I agree, having death penalties prevents challenging content.  The two are completely opposing eachother.

Pretty much if someone is asking for harsh death penalties then I know they want EZ mode combat.  They are using the death penalties to substitute for challenge. There is no way to have harsh death penalties and very challenging game combat at the same time.

Ha! You probably shouldn’t talk about stuff you know nothing about. 

Then again maybe someone like me does like ez mode? Are the souls games ez mode? 

I think they got it perfect. You’ve cleared a portion of the area, you have a lot of “souls “ and could push on and risk it if you forget an ambush or accidentally fall off a ledge. 

For me it’s the best combat I’ve experienced. So if that’s ez mode and dying AND running back to retrieve your souls BUT getting killed on the way and losing everything is harsh then “yup” I’m in.

Im too old for this sh!t :P

Lol, well’ even though I agree that “just failing “ has it’s own self punishment, having some sort stakes makes it more thrilling. It’s like watching a movie where you know no one will die versus watching a movie where there’s a possibility that someone can die.

cameltosis

Sovrath said:

Brainy said:

cameltosis said:

Meh, why do we need death penalties?

Losing by itself can feel like a penalty. The time you lose running back to where u were fighting can feel like a penalty.

For me, I don't want players to be discouraged from taking on challenging content. Because taking on a challenge, pushing yourself to get better, and then succeeding.....well, thats what provides players with a big buzz. That's what makes many of us feel good.

If we can encourage gamers to take on more challenging content, if the game can somehow tutor them to become better players, well, maybe the devs will start creating more challenging content, rather than the usual EZ mode crap we keep getting.

Yeah I agree, having death penalties prevents challenging content.  The two are completely opposing eachother.

Pretty much if someone is asking for harsh death penalties then I know they want EZ mode combat.  They are using the death penalties to substitute for challenge. There is no way to have harsh death penalties and very challenging game combat at the same time.

Ha! You probably shouldn’t talk about stuff you know nothing about. 

Then again maybe someone like me does like ez mode? Are the souls games ez mode? 

I think they got it perfect. You’ve cleared a portion of the area, you have a lot of “souls “ and could push on and risk it if you forget an ambush or accidentally fall off a ledge. 

For me it’s the best combat I’ve experienced. So if that’s ez mode and dying AND running back to retrieve your souls BUT getting killed on the way and losing everything is harsh then “yup” I’m in.

I didn't think Elden Ring was particularly hard.

Losing your souls after dying didn't affect the challenge level of the combat at all, it was a simple punishment, that was usually pretty simple to reverse.

But the actual difficulty of the combat mechanics? I'll try to explain:

Lets say you want to master Elden Ring's combat. That means perfectly blocking / parrying / dodging every attack, and landing every attack of your own perfectly. You need perfect knowledge of every enemy, so you can recognise every attack and how you must react to it.

The reaction times required, the speed of input required, and the personal knowledge of each enemy required for mastery seemed no different than the vast majority of action-combat games. Certainly no different than something like Kingdoms of Amalur (chose that purely because it was the RPG I played prior to Elden Ring).

The main difference is how close to mastery you need to get to clear the content. In something like Kingdoms of Amalur, you perhaps only need to achieve maybe 30% mastery to complete the game. If you block 30% of the attacks, land 30% of your own attacks, you'll win. With something like Elden Ring, you probably need to hit maybe 80% mastery to clear the game.

I don't personally view that as being more difficult, just more punishing. But that is perhaps purely a personal point of view, as I am someone who generally aims for mastery of any given game I'm playing. To me, Elden Ring seemed the lesser game in terms of combat, because of it's animation locking and the fact blocking rarely worked in boss fights. That restricted the available tactics you had, forcing you down a fairly static and boring mode of gameplay.