I am not sure about the horizontal progression either, the game will miss out on if there is no vertical progression and very limited combat.
I have to ask: What exactly do you believe vertical progression brings to an MMO? What is the point? Every game that has it must eventually work very hard to dismantle it in some subtle way, so why even include it in the first place?
It's really more about "attitude." Vertical progression is a measurable way of noting your character getting better. You are "this" much stronger, you have "this" much more hp," etc.
I'm a big believer in vertical progression but I'm a bigger believer in that it should be flatter than most games allow. So, for hit points, a new player might have 10 and a veteran could have ~60 depending upon what affects hit points. Not 5000.
A veteran should be stronger, better, etc but they should still have to rely upon their reflexes or skills or whatever to prevail. They just might have more hit points and more stamina/magicka or whatever to get the job done.
But that's all an illusion. If your enemies also have bigger numbers (and they always do), nothing has really changed on a functional level. You are demonstrably NOT "this" much stronger. This is especially true in games where they've normalized the levels throughout the game world, and a rat in the newbie zone can still kill you.
The ONLY thing that makes you stronger in any meaningful way is the fact that you've learned more abilities, unlocked more talents, etc. -- in other words, the horizontal part of progression.
No, you “are” stronger. You are stronger to every enemy that you’ve been fighting with.
You then have new enemies that are stronger and you need to level up to best them. That’s why you can traverse formerly dangerous areas with no issues.
But that's not what happens in modern MMOs. They've all started to normalize levels, as I mentioned, so that the monsters' numbers scale to match your own.
For those old-fashioned games that don't do this, it truly doesn't matter there, either, because you have absolutely no reason to go back and fight the weaker monsters, which yield no XP and trivial loot. In other words, you're still not stronger than the enemies you actually have a reason to fight.
This latter situation is actually a very important argument against vertical progression, by the way, because it turns all the low-level zones into obsolete ghost towns. By contrast, the world of a game with only horizontal progression can have zones that remain relevant at all times.
Everquest 2 had a system where you can group and level down so you always used the lower level zones when you played with guildmates and you can use a system where you can fix your level to handle content that you out levelled by making it so you were not over levelled. This made dungeons runs so much fun with guildees.
Their alternate advancement system is also a horizontal levelling system.
I am not sure about the horizontal progression either, the game will miss out on if there is no vertical progression and very limited combat.
I have to ask: What exactly do you believe vertical progression brings to an MMO? What is the point? Every game that has it must eventually work very hard to dismantle it in some subtle way, so why even include it in the first place?
It's really more about "attitude." Vertical progression is a measurable way of noting your character getting better. You are "this" much stronger, you have "this" much more hp," etc.
I'm a big believer in vertical progression but I'm a bigger believer in that it should be flatter than most games allow. So, for hit points, a new player might have 10 and a veteran could have ~60 depending upon what affects hit points. Not 5000.
A veteran should be stronger, better, etc but they should still have to rely upon their reflexes or skills or whatever to prevail. They just might have more hit points and more stamina/magicka or whatever to get the job done.
But that's all an illusion. If your enemies also have bigger numbers (and they always do), nothing has really changed on a functional level. You are demonstrably NOT "this" much stronger. This is especially true in games where they've normalized the levels throughout the game world, and a rat in the newbie zone can still kill you.
The ONLY thing that makes you stronger in any meaningful way is the fact that you've learned more abilities, unlocked more talents, etc. -- in other words, the horizontal part of progression.
No, you “are” stronger. You are stronger to every enemy that you’ve been fighting with.
You then have new enemies that are stronger and you need to level up to best them. That’s why you can traverse formerly dangerous areas with no issues.
But that's not what happens in modern MMOs. They've all started to normalize levels, as I mentioned, so that the monsters' numbers scale to match your own.
For those old-fashioned games that don't do this, it truly doesn't matter there, either, because you have absolutely no reason to go back and fight the weaker monsters, which yield no XP and trivial loot. In other words, you're still not stronger than the enemies you actually have a reason to fight.
This latter situation is actually a very important argument against vertical progression, by the way, because it turns all the low-level zones into obsolete ghost towns. By contrast, the world of a game with only horizontal progression can have zones that remain relevant at all times.
“They all?”
The only mmorpg I know that level scales (if that’s what you’re talking about) is Elder Scrolls Online.
I don’t believe New World does that this nor does Black Desert.
I do think scaling was added to Lord of the Rings Online.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
The only mmorpg I know that level scales (if that’s what you’re talking about) is Elder Scrolls Online.
I don’t believe New World does that this nor does Black Desert.
I do think scaling was added to Lord of the Rings Online.
As far as I know that's spot on.
World of Warcraft does it. Guild Wars 2 does it. FFXIV does it for all group content and main story quests.
For games that haven't been around as long, it's only a matter of time before they realize how detrimental vertical progression has been to their design space.
The only mmorpg I know that level scales (if that’s what you’re talking about) is Elder Scrolls Online.
I don’t believe New World does that this nor does Black Desert.
I do think scaling was added to Lord of the Rings Online.
As far as I know that's spot on.
World of Warcraft does it. Guild Wars 2 does it. FFXIV does it for all group content and main story quests.
For games that haven't been around as long, it's only a matter of time before they realize how detrimental vertical progression has been to their design space.
This exchange makes some observers here wonder why Scot was so certain, so sure, so convinced, without any effort at all, that "that's spot on" when, in fact, it wasn't even CLOSE to "spot on"
Scot could be a Star's Reach dev with that kind skill!
I give scot a rating of 3 out of 9 on the "Cranium Rectum Depth Scale" Compared to Raphs 9/9, there is still hope for Scot, as long as he/she/it/they isn't getting millions from billionaires who want to see how far they can push their mind and behavior control mechanisms on cvcked out MMORPG fans.
The only mmorpg I know that level scales (if that’s what you’re talking about) is Elder Scrolls Online.
I don’t believe New World does that this nor does Black Desert.
I do think scaling was added to Lord of the Rings Online.
As far as I know that's spot on.
World of Warcraft does it. Guild Wars 2 does it. FFXIV does it for all group content and main story quests.
For games that haven't been around as long, it's only a matter of time before they realize how detrimental vertical progression has been to their design space.
In fairness the world of Warcraft scaling has to be a reasonably recent thing. It certainly wasn’t like that for years.
so you’re saying the entire world of world of Warcraft scales to each player?
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
First an historical note, if humanity had not mined every ore it could get its hands on etc we would not have a civilization, so "plundering" is a rather subjective.
True! You may want to look at this week's post, it's about this exact topic.
I understand why the game has not gone hyperrealistic, but lets be honest, hyperrealism is never "boring". The "minecraft" element of the game and wanting the game to not look dated in five years time are reasons enough. I also must challenge Raph on his assertion that hyperrealism "specifically chases away women players" I put that to some girl gamers in one of my guilds and they laughed.
There is tons of market research on it, and it's commonly understood within the game industry.
Sadly, the reason is that there was lots of gatekeeping of games in the past, and the result is that stuff that looks "made for core gamers" often causes broader audiences to back away because they assume that the player population there will be made of up gatekeepers too. I mean, in this very thread we have someone unconstructively posting crap about "cvucks" and the like. That edgelord stuff chases away a lot of people.
One advantage to that crowd often being snobbish about stylized graphics is that then they tend not to be in the game community too!
I have to take a stand against the idea that Combat marginalises every other form of gameplay. It just depends on how you implement PvP and if he is saying PvE combat marginalises everything else I am not even sure where he is coming from.
This is also covered some in the new blog post. But combat so pervasively marginalizes everything else in most MMOs that it's like the air we breathe. It isn't about PvP.
In a game where progression is driven by combat, even stopping to chat is basically penalized. The person who doesn't chat levels faster than the person who does. Then the outleveled player is left behind.
SWG was a pretty chatty game. You could be doing lots of things and have stuff happening and still chat, thanks to macros. It made life easier. In most games if you aren't pew-pewing or slashing things you are idle or getting ready to log out. So will we be able to macro in this game?
The only mmorpg I know that level scales (if that’s what you’re talking about) is Elder Scrolls Online.
I don’t believe New World does that this nor does Black Desert.
I do think scaling was added to Lord of the Rings Online.
As far as I know that's spot on.
World of Warcraft does it. Guild Wars 2 does it. FFXIV does it for all group content and main story quests.
For games that haven't been around as long, it's only a matter of time before they realize how detrimental vertical progression has been to their design space.
In fairness the world of Warcraft scaling has to be a reasonably recent thing. It certainly wasn’t like that for years.
so you’re saying the entire world of world of Warcraft scales to each player?
Not exactly -- when you don't have Timewalking active, it's actually a complicated system where different zones have different minimum and maximum levels, but if the player is within that range, everything scales to the player's level.
(BTW, level scaling has been in the game in some form or another since Legion, so it's been quite a few years.)
With Timewalking (the most common way to level up) active, though, the entire world scales with the player until level 50. It is extremely rare for anyone to level up an alt without Timewalking, for all the reasons I've mentioned before. It's annoying to have to play in certain zones before going to other zones -- people would rather choose where to adventure without all the level constraints. (That said, questlines do still enforce a certain order on your adventure within the confines of a given expansion.)
This all goes back to my main point -- most people do not like having to level up before they can fully explore the world, join their friends, and enjoy the content that appeals to them. Vertical progression is a pointless artifact of the RPG genre's D&D roots, and players tend to be happier the less of it there is.
In a game where progression is driven by combat, even stopping to chat is basically penalized. The person who doesn't chat levels faster than the person who does. Then the outleveled player is left behind.
Thus we have switched to voice coms so we can keep hitting the button to get our pellets while also socializing a bit!
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
"Since we favor horizontal progression, where instead of “numbers go up” we have “number of commands goes up,” we can avoid this issue. In our game, your hit points won’t go up noticeably. And you will do more damage not because you leveled up or your gear got better, but because you compounded tactics together that you unlocked with skills."
[...]
I had started to reply to this point but my counter example has been fixed since I last remembered and I was too tired to rewrite that essay. Anyway, on to take #2.
tl;dr: "Number of commands goes up" can be just as broken as "all numbers go up"
Sometime between RotHC and KotFE SW:TOR implemented their own scaling algorithm for their open world content and dungeons. You'd get downscaled to whatever the planetary level is and upscaled to level cap for the dungeons.
Unlike FF14 their scaling only affects health, damage, and IIRC most stats. It does not limit what skills you have when downscaled nor add skills when upscaled. In other words it's a good approximation of horizontal scaling.
Like many WoW clones combat skills often have synergies. So a downscaled character at level cap not only has those additional force multiplier skills they also have more utility skills (eg. crowd control) available.
This used to be a big problem for dungeons. Occasionally a lower level character would get matched into a dungeon that was designed for certain utility (interrupts, etc.) or a DPS check that the underleveled character didn't have access to.
At some point the studio wised up and put a simple level filter on which instances a character qualifies for during matching.
Synergies are important for skill expression and IMO are a hard requirement if a game implements a LImited Action Set. For example Wildstar only allowed 8 or 10 active skills. Without the synergies combat would have been incredibly boring.
"Since we favor horizontal progression, where instead of “numbers go up” we have “number of commands goes up,” we can avoid this issue. In our game, your hit points won’t go up noticeably. And you will do more damage not because you leveled up or your gear got better, but because you compounded tactics together that you unlocked with skills."
[...]
I had started to reply to this point but my counter example has been fixed since I last remembered and I was too tired to rewrite that essay. Anyway, on to take #2.
tl;dr: "Number of commands goes up" can be just as broken as "all numbers go up"
Sometime between RotHC and KotFE SW:TOR implemented their own scaling algorithm for their open world content and dungeons. You'd get downscaled to whatever the planetary level is and upscaled to level cap for the dungeons.
Unlike FF14 their scaling only affects health, damage, and IIRC most stats. It does not limit what skills you have when downscaled nor add skills when upscaled. In other words it's a good approximation of horizontal scaling.
Like many WoW clones combat skills often have synergies. So a downscaled character at level cap not only has those additional force multiplier skills they also have more utility skills (eg. crowd control) available.
This used to be a big problem for dungeons. Occasionally a lower level character would get matched into a dungeon that was designed for certain utility (interrupts, etc.) or a DPS check that the underleveled character didn't have access to.
At some point the studio wised up and put a simple level filter on which instances a character qualifies for during matching.
Synergies are important for skill expression and IMO are a hard requirement if a game implements a LImited Action Set. For example Wildstar only allowed 8 or 10 active skills. Without the synergies combat would have been incredibly boring.
Quoting that last: "Synergies are important for skill expression and IMO are a hard requirement if a game implements a LImited Action Set. For example Wildstar only allowed 8 or 10 active skills. Without the synergies combat would have been incredibly boring."
Stars Reach seems to be following this design, with their tool belts and abilities tied explicitly to tools. Add the comment that if you don't have a tool you need with you, you go back home and get it.
I've never liked the idea of having abilities that I can't use at any moment, generally speaking. (I can see reagents, herbs, arrows, "fuels" needed that can run out, that I like as part of the management game.) I can see times when you need some special things to accomplish a task, and said "thing" is too big to carry around, but that I would expect to be a rare-ish event. Like a siege weapon, for example.
I don't think constantly going back home for a tool, that's not one on your belt, is going to last very long before players start complaining. I think that's going to become a very big issue, and rather quickly.
I also don't like the idea of players running around with a "tool" in each hand to do something, like in the video. Seeing a number of players running around like that, constantly, is gonna be weird. That's just my opinion.
I do love the idea of a tool belt, if it's sci-fi things like a gearbox that allows flight, or walking on water, or jumping extra far. Or invisibility or camo to various degrees, or things like that. However, I think things like shooting bursts should be a skill, and things like better aim should be via something attached to the weapon.
The only mmorpg I know that level scales (if that’s what you’re talking about) is Elder Scrolls Online.
I don’t believe New World does that this nor does Black Desert.
I do think scaling was added to Lord of the Rings Online.
As far as I know that's spot on.
World of Warcraft does it. Guild Wars 2 does it. FFXIV does it for all group content and main story quests.
For games that haven't been around as long, it's only a matter of time before they realize how detrimental vertical progression has been to their design space.
I don't agree with you but I did not know that. I was on board when VP started to come out, "it will encourage grouping" they said. From what I have seen and heard from others that never happened.
First an historical note, if humanity had not mined every ore it could get its hands on etc we would not have a civilization, so "plundering" is a rather subjective.
True! You may want to look at this week's post, it's about this exact topic.
I understand why the game has not gone hyperrealistic, but lets be honest, hyperrealism is never "boring". The "minecraft" element of the game and wanting the game to not look dated in five years time are reasons enough. I also must challenge Raph on his assertion that hyperrealism "specifically chases away women players" I put that to some girl gamers in one of my guilds and they laughed.
There is tons of market research on it, and it's commonly understood within the game industry.
Sadly, the reason is that there was lots of gatekeeping of games in the past, and the result is that stuff that looks "made for core gamers" often causes broader audiences to back away because they assume that the player population there will be made of up gatekeepers too. I mean, in this very thread we have someone unconstructively posting crap about "cvucks" and the like. That edgelord stuff chases away a lot of people.
One advantage to that crowd often being snobbish about stylized graphics is that then they tend not to be in the game community too!
I have to take a stand against the idea that Combat marginalises every other form of gameplay. It just depends on how you implement PvP and if he is saying PvE combat marginalises everything else I am not even sure where he is coming from.
This is also covered some in the new blog post. But combat so pervasively marginalizes everything else in most MMOs that it's like the air we breathe. It isn't about PvP.
In a game where progression is driven by combat, even stopping to chat is basically penalized. The person who doesn't chat levels faster than the person who does. Then the outleveled player is left behind.
Well I agree there can be a gatekeeper mentality in FPS, but in MMOs generally? I am sure you have done your research Raph, it just does not match my experience. Some MMOs are more community friendly, but that's rare and I don't think it had anything to do with the graphics. The Lotro community was more about the Tolkien mindset in my eyes.
I have to say I am a hyper-realistic fan, but I regard that as a trap for a new MMORPG. I do look for that in multiplayer but not MMOs. And I am a big community fan, I won't even play in a MMORPG these days unless I find a guild, I look for MMOs to have an official forum not just Discord and so on. My belief is that if players post, even on here they are far more likely to want some form of in game community. So everyone who like super graphics does not fit that mould.
Ok, I see where you are coming from on PvE, but that assumes most levelling XP comes from combat. Thinking back to Vanguard they tried levelling via crafting and diplomatic quests, it half worked in my eyes, but not bad for a first attempt. Not saying that's the solution, just that switching to horizontal progression comes with its own downsides. The main one I can see being that players will not feel they are truly progressing.
But I agree that combat is too all absorbing in MMOs and shuts everything else out, which is to the detriment of the genre, just not sure a better balance can be made.
switching to horizontal progression comes with its own downsides. The main one I can see being that players will not feel they are truly progressing.
Are you saying that gaining a new ability is less satisfying than an incremental bump in health and raw damage?
To me, gaining new abilities and talents is the only important part of leveling up. Seeing my numbers increase does not feel like progress at all.
Let me give an example from D&D: When a class has levels on its progression table where only the stats go up and no new abilities are gained, players call it a "dead level" and lobby very hard for the design team to add something more than just another hit die and maybe an increase to the proficiency bonus.
Quoting that last: "Synergies are important for skill expression and IMO are a hard requirement if a game implements a LImited Action Set. For example Wildstar only allowed 8 or 10 active skills. Without the synergies combat would have been incredibly boring."
Stars Reach seems to be following this design, with their tool belts and abilities tied explicitly to tools. Add the comment that if you don't have a tool you need with you, you go back home and get it.
I've never liked the idea of having abilities that I can't use at any moment, generally speaking. (I can see reagents, herbs, arrows, "fuels" needed that can run out, that I like as part of the management game.) I can see times when you need some special things to accomplish a task, and said "thing" is too big to carry around, but that I would expect to be a rare-ish event. Like a siege weapon, for example.
Whilst I can understand where you are coming from, I firmly believe that a limited action set (or equivalent) is fairly essential to the sort of horizontal progression I want to see.
If you always have access to every skill you unlock, then essentially every time you unlock a new skill, you are becoming more powerful. You are gaining more options that are always available to you, which makes you more adaptable to any situation compared to a player without as many skills. If you aren't getting more powerful / adaptable when unlocking a new skill, then that new skill is just bloat.
However, if you unlock a new skill but can't use that skill until you remove an existing skill from your limited action set, then it becomes horizontal. You gain some AoE, but lose some single target. Gain some burst, lose some sustained etc. That way, the player can keep progressing, can keep unlocking more options for customising their gameplay, but they aren't necessarily more powerful because they are still limited to 10 / 12 / 20 skills at any given moment. they have to make a meaningful choice as to how to to setup their character before heading out for an adventure.
In my mind, it's most similar to how we have to spec out characters in most MMORPGs. Like, I'm playing WAR RoR again at the moment. I can spec my Black Orc into a DPS tree, a Tank tree, and a Buff tree. I'm still always a tank, but my choice of spec unlocks new skills, tactics and buffs associated skills in that tree.
Limited Action Sets with horizontal progression is kinda the same thing, just more meaningful, with much more choice.
Ofc, no idea if that is how it's gonna work in Star's Reach! The impression I got was more along the lines of ARK, where i can put a limited number of things on my toolbar. I'll wait for more details.
Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr7X Black Orc | Scrotling rr6X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr4X Shaman
The only mmorpg I know that level scales (if that’s what you’re talking about) is Elder Scrolls Online.
I don’t believe New World does that this nor does Black Desert.
I do think scaling was added to Lord of the Rings Online.
As far as I know that's spot on.
World of Warcraft does it. Guild Wars 2 does it. FFXIV does it for all group content and main story quests.
For games that haven't been around as long, it's only a matter of time before they realize how detrimental vertical progression has been to their design space.
In fairness the world of Warcraft scaling has to be a reasonably recent thing. It certainly wasn’t like that for years.
so you’re saying the entire world of world of Warcraft scales to each player?
Not exactly -- when you don't have Timewalking active, it's actually a complicated system where different zones have different minimum and maximum levels, but if the player is within that range, everything scales to the player's level.
(BTW, level scaling has been in the game in some form or another since Legion, so it's been quite a few years.)
With Timewalking (the most common way to level up) active, though, the entire world scales with the player until level 50. It is extremely rare for anyone to level up an alt without Timewalking, for all the reasons I've mentioned before. It's annoying to have to play in certain zones before going to other zones -- people would rather choose where to adventure without all the level constraints. (That said, questlines do still enforce a certain order on your adventure within the confines of a given expansion.)
This all goes back to my main point -- most people do not like having to level up before they can fully explore the world, join their friends, and enjoy the content that appeals to them. Vertical progression is a pointless artifact of the RPG genre's D&D roots, and players tend to be happier the less of it there is.
I don't know what "time walking" is so I'll have to take your word for that. I still don't think, at least at this moment, "they all."
However, who knows, maybe as time goes by more level matching will be added.
As far as people not liking to level up to explore the world, I don't see why that should stop them. But it does.
I know for myself I've explored higher level and more dangerous areas in Lineage 2, Lord of the Rings Online, and Vanguard. Oh sure, in some cases I died horribly but I did it.
I think what really is going on is that a certain demographic of players wants to explore the world but with very little danger.
Then again, this goes back to my thought that vertical progression should be flatter. A high level character should still traverse the world feeling it's still dangerous. A low level player should be able to traverse the world and know that they very well could die but if they're smart they might be able to escape that fate.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
switching to horizontal progression comes with its own downsides. The main one I can see being that players will not feel they are truly progressing.
Are you saying that gaining a new ability is less satisfying than an incremental bump in health and raw damage?
To me, gaining new abilities and talents is the only important part of leveling up. Seeing my numbers increase does not feel like progress at all.
Let me give an example from D&D: When a class has levels on its progression table where only the stats go up and no new abilities are gained, players call it a "dead level" and lobby very hard for the design team to add something more than just another hit die and maybe an increase to the proficiency bonus.
No I am not, I am saying that without seeing what the horizonal progression is in detail it will be impossible to judge if it is good enough to replace vertical progression.
It might ruin the concept of classes. It might ruin the concept of combat roles.
But character? Its not really that different to FFXIVs jobs, where a character can learn all jobs, but is restricted by what weapon they actually have equiped.
Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr7X Black Orc | Scrotling rr6X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr4X Shaman
It might ruin the concept of classes. It might ruin the concept of combat roles.
But character? Its not really that different to FFXIVs jobs, where a character can learn all jobs, but is restricted by what weapon they actually have equiped.
The reason for classes, skill sets, or whatever, is to define the character. Most gamers seem to like this. Same thing for stats, for the definition of the character.
It might ruin the concept of classes. It might ruin the concept of combat roles.
But character? Its not really that different to FFXIVs jobs, where a character can learn all jobs, but is restricted by what weapon they actually have equiped.
The reason for classes, skill sets, or whatever, is to define the character. Most gamers seem to like this. Same thing for stats, for the definition of the character.
Classes, skills sets etc are for defining your combat role, not your character.
I do totally understand where you are coming from, especially as in most RPGs your character is restricted to a single role, so that role becomes a big part of your character's identity. But they are different things.
We'll see what final implementation ends up being. It might take a very long time to max out a tool and unlock all of that tools' skills, in which case your character and their tool choice might be closely linked. It might be that the tools don't really change much in terms of combat role, so we're all essentially ranged DPS. We don't know enough yet. I don't even think we know what sort of combat roles are going to be present. Will it be the boring trinity? Will it go beyond trinity? Will they not bother with different combat roles at all?
Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr7X Black Orc | Scrotling rr6X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr4X Shaman
It might ruin the concept of classes. It might ruin the concept of combat roles.
But character? Its not really that different to FFXIVs jobs, where a character can learn all jobs, but is restricted by what weapon they actually have equiped.
The reason for classes, skill sets, or whatever, is to define the character. Most gamers seem to like this. Same thing for stats, for the definition of the character.
Classes, skills sets etc are for defining your combat role, not your character.
I do totally understand where you are coming from, especially as in most RPGs your character is restricted to a single role, so that role becomes a big part of your character's identity. But they are different things.
We'll see what final implementation ends up being. It might take a very long time to max out a tool and unlock all of that tools' skills, in which case your character and their tool choice might be closely linked. It might be that the tools don't really change much in terms of combat role, so we're all essentially ranged DPS. We don't know enough yet. I don't even think we know what sort of combat roles are going to be present. Will it be the boring trinity? Will it go beyond trinity? Will they not bother with different combat roles at all?
Well, debating this is a fine point. The main thing is the perception of the players, is an ability on the character or is it on the tool. It can be both, btw. For example, higher skills and better tools.
Comments
Their alternate advancement system is also a horizontal levelling system.
The only mmorpg I know that level scales (if that’s what you’re talking about) is Elder Scrolls Online.
I don’t believe New World does that this nor does Black Desert.
I do think scaling was added to Lord of the Rings Online.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Scot could be a Star's Reach dev with that kind skill!
I give scot a rating of 3 out of 9 on the "Cranium Rectum Depth Scale"
Compared to Raphs 9/9, there is still hope for Scot, as long as he/she/it/they isn't getting millions from billionaires who want to see how far they can push their mind and behavior control mechanisms on cvcked out MMORPG fans.
so you’re saying the entire world of world of Warcraft scales to each player?
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
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Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
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"Synergies are important for skill expression and IMO are a hard requirement if a game implements a LImited Action Set. For example Wildstar only allowed 8 or 10 active skills. Without the synergies combat would have been incredibly boring."
Stars Reach seems to be following this design, with their tool belts and abilities tied explicitly to tools.
Add the comment that if you don't have a tool you need with you, you go back home and get it.
I've never liked the idea of having abilities that I can't use at any moment, generally speaking.
(I can see reagents, herbs, arrows, "fuels" needed that can run out, that I like as part of the management game.)
I can see times when you need some special things to accomplish a task, and said "thing" is too big to carry around, but that I would expect to be a rare-ish event. Like a siege weapon, for example.
I don't think constantly going back home for a tool, that's not one on your belt, is going to last very long before players start complaining. I think that's going to become a very big issue, and rather quickly.
I also don't like the idea of players running around with a "tool" in each hand to do something, like in the video. Seeing a number of players running around like that, constantly, is gonna be weird. That's just my opinion.
I do love the idea of a tool belt, if it's sci-fi things like a gearbox that allows flight, or walking on water, or jumping extra far. Or invisibility or camo to various degrees, or things like that.
However, I think things like shooting bursts should be a skill, and things like better aim should be via something attached to the weapon.
That's just my thoughts, for now.
Once upon a time....
I have to say I am a hyper-realistic fan, but I regard that as a trap for a new MMORPG. I do look for that in multiplayer but not MMOs. And I am a big community fan, I won't even play in a MMORPG these days unless I find a guild, I look for MMOs to have an official forum not just Discord and so on. My belief is that if players post, even on here they are far more likely to want some form of in game community. So everyone who like super graphics does not fit that mould.
Ok, I see where you are coming from on PvE, but that assumes most levelling XP comes from combat. Thinking back to Vanguard they tried levelling via crafting and diplomatic quests, it half worked in my eyes, but not bad for a first attempt. Not saying that's the solution, just that switching to horizontal progression comes with its own downsides. The main one I can see being that players will not feel they are truly progressing.
But I agree that combat is too all absorbing in MMOs and shuts everything else out, which is to the detriment of the genre, just not sure a better balance can be made.
Once upon a time....
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Same thing for stats, for the definition of the character.
Once upon a time....
It can be both, btw. For example, higher skills and better tools.
Once upon a time....