I should have watched the video first as I thought the topic was otherwise. Kingdoms of Amalur is an excellent example of a solo game than keep feel like a MMORPG.
So they should essentially shut the site down because you guys don’t like it?
I would bet that games related to MMORPG’s or even the occasional shooter, draw a good deal more interest.
Also, I imagine changing the name would essentially wipe out their branding so it makes more sense to just feature a few other types of games.
Also, if MMORPGs make a recovery such that news about them comes out on a more regular basis I imagine the site will shift coverage accordingly so that other game genres are less represented. The name may as well stay suited to the intended focus of the site.
I totally agree. But this is a much wider issue than just MMORPGs. As a society we have taken great pride it destroying definitions and mocking those who call it wrong. This isn’t to get political but I can rattle off a dozen other non-gaming parallels.
What you say seems like common sense. Definitions DO matter. But all I can do is refuse to go along with the folks LARPing Animal Farm on a Global scale.
A single player game can never accurately be called a massively multiplayer game. Maybe it’s a small hill to make the last stand on, but here we are…
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
The problem goes beyond reading comprehension - that ship sailed two decades ago - we're now into expecting our realities to alter according to preferences. Somehow, spending $15 on a game entitles you to 1,000s of hours of the developers time.
Indeed, I knew trouble was a-brewin' many years ago when people started talking about how an author's work belonged to the fans (not the author) once published, and that the fans were correct to throw fits when the author took the story in a direction the fans did not predict or approve ahead of time.
The sheer idiotic hubris of that stance is an ongoing source of despair for me.
Yeah, I dunno about that. The tragedy of how Stephen King f-d up the ending of the Dark Tower series showed total disregard for the fans who waited over 10 years for him to wrap that series up.
We / they were justified in slagging on him for it.
I stopped buying his books after that.
You are entitled to your personal taste, of course, and you should never buy anything out of blind loyalty.
I actually see now that I totally mis-stated my point. My discomfort wasn't about writing future works, but about the interpretation of existing works. Apologies for the slip-up.
What I should have said is that I find it obnoxious when fans decide upon a subtext or unspoken motivation, but then react badly when the author publicly explains things in a way that contradicts their theories. The embarrassed fans then claim that the author has lost their mind, when it's the fans themselves who are acting childish and unhinged.
Also @lotrlore can we argue about RPG definition next?
This is the third rail of games journalism, not sure if I want to wade into that while I've still got a career left.
Obviously you should offload that conversation to me, the essayist whose only fully completed Final Fantasy game is the MMORPG, and spends about 80% of her time in it roleplaying. It'll be fun, I'm sure everyone will love it.
Also, I'd like to point out the cardinal sins of that Gameranx video, and please give me some rope here- but.... considering the topic and context that the video prefaces, ....
....HOW ON EARTH did he just avoid the single player games whose selling points are 'games that plays like and mimic an MMORPG experience'???
The .Hack// game series immediately springs to mind.
Sword Art Online: Hollow Realization..... i mean that should have been an easy one.
Phantasy Star Online....COME ON.
See this is why content creators like gameranx tend to have an adverse effect on my blood pressure.
Think of the list of games they could have actually included in that video and it would have helped people discovery some forgotten gems... but no, Assassin's Creed or bust. >__>
Fishing on Gilgamesh since 2013 Fishing on Bronzebeard since 2005 Fishing in RL since 1992 Born with a fishing rod in my hand in 1979
Also, I'd like to point out the cardinal sins of that Gameranx video, and please give me some rope here- but.... considering the topic and context that the video prefaces, ....
....HOW ON EARTH did he just avoid the single player games whose selling points are 'games that plays like and mimic an MMORPG experience'???
The .Hack// game series immediately springs to mind.
Sword Art Online: Hollow Realization..... i mean that should have been an easy one.
Phantasy Star Online....COME ON.
See this is why content creators like gameranx tend to have an adverse effect on my blood pressure.
Think of the list of games they could have actually included in that video and it would have helped people discovery some forgotten gems... but no, Assassin's Creed or bust. >__>
A game that may end out doing that exceptionally well is Erenshor that will essentially be a single player MMORPG simulation with an AI player base to interact with.
Also @lotrlore can we argue about RPG definition next?
This is the third rail of games journalism, not sure if I want to wade into that while I've still got a career left.
Obviously you should offload that conversation to me, the essayist whose only fully completed Final Fantasy game is the MMORPG, and spends about 80% of her time in it roleplaying. It'll be fun, I'm sure everyone will love it.
Roleplaying, lore, proper quests, just some of the things MMORPG's were founded on that are footnotes in so many of todays modern MMOs.
Also @lotrlore can we argue about RPG definition next?
This is the third rail of games journalism, not sure if I want to wade into that while I've still got a career left.
Obviously you should offload that conversation to me, the essayist whose only fully completed Final Fantasy game is the MMORPG, and spends about 80% of her time in it roleplaying. It'll be fun, I'm sure everyone will love it.
Roleplaying, lore, proper quests, just some of the things MMORPG's were founded on that are footnotes in so many of todays modern MMOs.
proper quests...I did the quest for the sword Soulfire in EQ back in the day, took months and an entire guild to help me get it, first and best quest I ever did in an MMoRPG
proper quests...I did the quest for the sword Soulfire in EQ back in the day, took months and an entire guild to help me get it, first and best quest I ever did in an MMoRPG
These days you can't have a quest that takes longer than 5 mins just in case the player is "super casual", players which I think of as detrimental to any sort of gameplay, let alone MMOs.
Do you really think these days players will stick round for 8 hours while you clear the Plane of Fear to get an item for one player in the raid of 60 people, I seriously don't see it happening. The Cleric one had you camping a spot for like 48 hours or something in case the named mob spawns.
It is time to admit such expectations for an epic quest are really a waste of time and no one in their right mind is camping shit for that long. It was a bad idea then and is still a bad idea. Nothing to do with players being too lazy or not committed enough. It's just a colossal waste of time. Don't glorify such nonsense. I don't mind looking back with rose tinted lenses but damn it was horrible.
Do you really think these days players will stick round for 8 hours while you clear the Plane of Fear to get an item for one player in the raid of 60 people, I seriously don't see it happening. The Cleric one had you camping a spot for like 48 hours or something in case the named mob spawns.
It is time to admit such expectations for an epic quest are really a waste of time and no one in their right mind is camping shit for that long. It was a bad idea then and is still a bad idea. Nothing to do with players being too lazy or not committed enough. It's just a colossal waste of time. Don't glorify such nonsense. I don't mind looking back with rose tinted lenses but damn it was horrible.
My first and probably favorite MMORPG was DAOC when it first released. There were no quests, we leveled up by farming mobs. And it required a group to do that effectively. Few if any solo characters could farm mobs efficiently. That's why everybody made healbots to play with.
They added long quests and raids in ToA, and most people agree that is when the game started going downhill. I quit shortly after ToA came out and went to Ryzom. A MMORPG that has no quests at all. Again the main action was farming mobs in groups, and again few if any characters could farm solo effectively. Ryzom was more like today's survival games, where all weapons and armor are player made, and harvesting and crafting were primary activities.
When Wow came out I was immediately put off by the cartoony graphics and never played it. My "WoW experience" was playing LoTRO, and then Vanguard.
ESO was the last MMO that I played and it was already watered down quite a bit. All characters can do everything, soloing is easy. Since each character only has a handful of skills, they all play very similarly. Quests and raids are the main staple of the game, and you have to learn the moves of the boss to win. It reminds me of ToA. The skills are so simplified that my necro pet in Vanguard had more skills available than the main player in ESO has.
Today things are simplified and sped up, so that a quickie game like Fortnite makes more money than any MMO ever did. WoW has made $14 billion in 20 years, Fortnite makes $5 billion every year. There is still some reverence for the high water mark WoW made so many developers slap the MMORPG label on their game to try to capture some of that. It's so bad that now we talk of "single player MMO" games.
Do you really think these days players will stick round for 8 hours while you clear the Plane of Fear to get an item for one player in the raid of 60 people, I seriously don't see it happening. The Cleric one had you camping a spot for like 48 hours or something in case the named mob spawns.
It is time to admit such expectations for an epic quest are really a waste of time and no one in their right mind is camping shit for that long. It was a bad idea then and is still a bad idea. Nothing to do with players being too lazy or not committed enough. It's just a colossal waste of time. Don't glorify such nonsense. I don't mind looking back with rose tinted lenses but damn it was horrible.
You are making some assumptions here that are not part of the design I am talking about. For example a quest that takes 8 hours does not need you to be online continuously for 8 hours to complete it. And I did not mention camping, no camping thank you.
But where we disagree is that "super casual" is about being lazy or not being committed enough, that's exactly what it is. We constantly see a push in MMOs for smaller and smaller in game time segments to result in achievements of some sort. This is the ding ding mentality gaming needs to get aways from.
So do you think players should be able to complete a quest in 5 minutes, here is what I think they should be able to do. Log in, do some inventory management and log out. I really think that if you can only bother to spend 5 minutes of your oh so valuable time then don't expect the game world to be handed to you on a plate.
I think 5 minutes is an exaggeration. Hard quests don't take 5 minutes. They should not take a whole guild nor 2 days of camping because you're afraid someone else will steal the spawn. That was the issue with Everquest you could not leave unless you left your spot with someone trusted who could make a phone call and get you there if the named mob spawned.
Nowadays there are many easy games but there are also games where you can accomplish things with a small group. In this respect EQ 2 did a good job on the Heritage quests. Those could be accomplished with a few people from the guild. You could not solo it in the original game nor any version without mercenaries.
Your idea that games are dumbed down to an extent is true but there are games that rely more on skill rather than time to accomplish things. That was the problem with Everquest the time investment was nuts.
So a quest takes 8 hours but you do not have to be online for those 8 hours. So it's on a timer. What's the point of an artificial limitation that has one logging off. Isn't it better to just make a group endeavour instead of gating it with time?
Many people prefer to work slowly towards a goal like when I was upgrading my weapon in FFXIV . You could slowly do it with other people and some of it solo but in the end you ended up with a powerful weapon that was epic. It required you to do things over a course of time or if you could obtain the items or get people to help even faster. So ultimately the time it took depended on your ability to work with others.
I think many of the games you're looking at and making assumptions of are not ones you have played since you have already dismissed them based on a cursory examination. There are different types of difficulties in games. It's not all about how long it takes.
I think 5 minutes is an exaggeration. Hard quests don't take 5 minutes. They should not take a whole guild nor 2 days of camping because you're afraid someone else will steal the spawn. That was the issue with Everquest you could not leave unless you left your spot with someone trusted who could make a phone call and get you there if the named mob spawned.
Nowadays there are many easy games but there are also games where you can accomplish things with a small group. In this respect EQ 2 did a good job on the Heritage quests. Those could be accomplished with a few people from the guild. You could not solo it in the original game nor any version without mercenaries.
Your idea that games are dumbed down to an extent is true but there are games that rely more on skill rather than time to accomplish things. That was the problem with Everquest the time investment was nuts.
So a quest takes 8 hours but you do not have to be online for those 8 hours. So it's on a timer. What's the point of an artificial limitation that has one logging off. Isn't it better to just make a group endeavour instead of gating it with time?
Many people prefer to work slowly towards a goal like when I was upgrading my weapon in FFXIV . You could slowly do it with other people and some of it solo but in the end you ended up with a powerful weapon that was epic. It required you to do things over a course of time or if you could obtain the items or get people to help even faster. So ultimately the time it took depended on your ability to work with others.
I think many of the games you're looking at and making assumptions of are not ones you have played since you have already dismissed them based on a cursory examination. There are different types of difficulties in games. It's not all about how long it takes.
I think we are speaking at cross purposes here, once again you go on about camping, I already said no camping thanks.
The 8 hour quest is not on a timer, you log in, you log out, but it will take 8 hours to complete. Players today want everything wrapped up and rewarded in as quick a time as possible. They don't want to have to think about a story that lasts that long or involves travelling around the map too much. Ding, Ding!
The quest is not necessity hard, but then that depends on what we think of as hard. For me most MMOs today let you walkover mobs, but I would not want players thinking they might die every time they go into combat. There is a good balance to be had here.
"Your idea that games are dumbed down to an extent is true but there are games that rely more on skill rather than time to accomplish things."
What MMO relies on skill these days, do tell?
I agree whole heartedly with what you are saying about the importance of at least some gameplay being about "your ability to work with others". We have never differed there I think.
So can you see how I think that we are rather closer in what we think MMOs should be like than at first glance? This is all about balance, "5 minute" achievements of any sort need the boot, but anything where you need to be logged in for more than a few hours should be very limited. The top tier raids, the sort of ones that are brought in after the games been out a couple of years. Possibly "partial achievement" if only there for part of some sorts of PVP like a siege, that's it.
Comments
Also, if MMORPGs make a recovery such that news about them comes out on a more regular basis I imagine the site will shift coverage accordingly so that other game genres are less represented. The name may as well stay suited to the intended focus of the site.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Obviously you should offload that conversation to me, the essayist whose only fully completed Final Fantasy game is the MMORPG, and spends about 80% of her time in it roleplaying. It'll be fun, I'm sure everyone will love it.
....HOW ON EARTH did he just avoid the single player games whose selling points are 'games that plays like and mimic an MMORPG experience'???
The .Hack// game series immediately springs to mind.
Sword Art Online: Hollow Realization..... i mean that should have been an easy one.
Phantasy Star Online....COME ON.
See this is why content creators like gameranx tend to have an adverse effect on my blood pressure.
Think of the list of games they could have actually included in that video and it would have helped people discovery some forgotten gems... but no, Assassin's Creed or bust. >__>
Fishing on Gilgamesh since 2013
Fishing on Bronzebeard since 2005
Fishing in RL since 1992
Born with a fishing rod in my hand in 1979
A game that may end out doing that exceptionally well is Erenshor that will essentially be a single player MMORPG simulation with an AI player base to interact with.
Godz of War I call Thee
It is time to admit such expectations for an epic quest are really a waste of time and no one in their right mind is camping shit for that long. It was a bad idea then and is still a bad idea. Nothing to do with players being too lazy or not committed enough. It's just a colossal waste of time. Don't glorify such nonsense. I don't mind looking back with rose tinted lenses but damn it was horrible.
They added long quests and raids in ToA, and most people agree that is when the game started going downhill. I quit shortly after ToA came out and went to Ryzom. A MMORPG that has no quests at all. Again the main action was farming mobs in groups, and again few if any characters could farm solo effectively. Ryzom was more like today's survival games, where all weapons and armor are player made, and harvesting and crafting were primary activities.
When Wow came out I was immediately put off by the cartoony graphics and never played it. My "WoW experience" was playing LoTRO, and then Vanguard.
ESO was the last MMO that I played and it was already watered down quite a bit. All characters can do everything, soloing is easy. Since each character only has a handful of skills, they all play very similarly. Quests and raids are the main staple of the game, and you have to learn the moves of the boss to win. It reminds me of ToA. The skills are so simplified that my necro pet in Vanguard had more skills available than the main player in ESO has.
Today things are simplified and sped up, so that a quickie game like Fortnite makes more money than any MMO ever did. WoW has made $14 billion in 20 years, Fortnite makes $5 billion every year. There is still some reverence for the high water mark WoW made so many developers slap the MMORPG label on their game to try to capture some of that. It's so bad that now we talk of "single player MMO" games.
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2024: 47 years on the Net.
But where we disagree is that "super casual" is about being lazy or not being committed enough, that's exactly what it is. We constantly see a push in MMOs for smaller and smaller in game time segments to result in achievements of some sort. This is the ding ding mentality gaming needs to get aways from.
So do you think players should be able to complete a quest in 5 minutes, here is what I think they should be able to do. Log in, do some inventory management and log out. I really think that if you can only bother to spend 5 minutes of your oh so valuable time then don't expect the game world to be handed to you on a plate.
Nowadays there are many easy games but there are also games where you can accomplish things with a small group. In this respect EQ 2 did a good job on the Heritage quests. Those could be accomplished with a few people from the guild. You could not solo it in the original game nor any version without mercenaries.
Your idea that games are dumbed down to an extent is true but there are games that rely more on skill rather than time to accomplish things. That was the problem with Everquest the time investment was nuts.
So a quest takes 8 hours but you do not have to be online for those 8 hours. So it's on a timer. What's the point of an artificial limitation that has one logging off. Isn't it better to just make a group endeavour instead of gating it with time?
Many people prefer to work slowly towards a goal like when I was upgrading my weapon in FFXIV . You could slowly do it with other people and some of it solo but in the end you ended up with a powerful weapon that was epic. It required you to do things over a course of time or if you could obtain the items or get people to help even faster. So ultimately the time it took depended on your ability to work with others.
I think many of the games you're looking at and making assumptions of are not ones you have played since you have already dismissed them based on a cursory examination. There are different types of difficulties in games. It's not all about how long it takes.
The 8 hour quest is not on a timer, you log in, you log out, but it will take 8 hours to complete. Players today want everything wrapped up and rewarded in as quick a time as possible. They don't want to have to think about a story that lasts that long or involves travelling around the map too much. Ding, Ding!
The quest is not necessity hard, but then that depends on what we think of as hard. For me most MMOs today let you walkover mobs, but I would not want players thinking they might die every time they go into combat. There is a good balance to be had here.
"Your idea that games are dumbed down to an extent is true but there are games that rely more on skill rather than time to accomplish things."
What MMO relies on skill these days, do tell?
I agree whole heartedly with what you are saying about the importance of at least some gameplay being about "your ability to work with others". We have never differed there I think.
So can you see how I think that we are rather closer in what we think MMOs should be like than at first glance? This is all about balance, "5 minute" achievements of any sort need the boot, but anything where you need to be logged in for more than a few hours should be very limited. The top tier raids, the sort of ones that are brought in after the games been out a couple of years. Possibly "partial achievement" if only there for part of some sorts of PVP like a siege, that's it.