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GrimDogGaming

Think of the poor Orc daddies just trying to raise their families!! roflmao

That show is such a joke and an insult to Tolkein.

Elidien_ga

Actually orcs have families, orc children are referenced in the Hobbit, and Tolkien himself did not really give a solid definition of their origin and wrestled with them himself. I actually do not see it as an insult and I think Tolkien would appreciate the writers attempting to create a story.

But like many others, I guess its popular to hate, jump to conclusions, and be part of the crowd. Hope you find happiness in some other story.

Wargfoot

Elidien_ga said:

But like many others, I guess its popular to hate, jump to conclusions, and be part of the crowd. Hope you find happiness in some other story.

I think there is quite a bit of conclusion jumping right here...

That aside, I'd be interested in any passages that talk about orc children in "The Hobbit".
I think you made that up.

Sovrath

Wargfoot said:

Elidien_ga said:

But like many others, I guess its popular to hate, jump to conclusions, and be part of the crowd. Hope you find happiness in some other story.

I think there is quite a bit of conclusion jumping right here...

That aside, I'd be interested in any passages that talk about orc children in "The Hobbit".
I think you made that up.

“No one would see him, no one would notice him, till he had his fingers on their throat. Only a few hours ago he had worn it, and caught a small goblin-imp. How it squeaked! He still had a bone or two left to gnaw, but he wanted something softer.”

Maybe?

Nick_Shively

Wargfoot said:

Elidien_ga said:

But like many others, I guess its popular to hate, jump to conclusions, and be part of the crowd. Hope you find happiness in some other story.

I think there is quite a bit of conclusion jumping right here...

That aside, I'd be interested in any passages that talk about orc children in "The Hobbit".
I think you made that up.

"No one would see him, no one would notice him, till he had his fingers on their throat. Only a few hours ago he had worn it, and caught a small goblin-imp. How it squeaked! He still had a bone or two left to gnaw, but he wanted something softer. "

Wargfoot

Sovrath said:

Wargfoot said:

Elidien_ga said:

But like many others, I guess its popular to hate, jump to conclusions, and be part of the crowd. Hope you find happiness in some other story.

I think there is quite a bit of conclusion jumping right here...

That aside, I'd be interested in any passages that talk about orc children in "The Hobbit".
I think you made that up.

“No one would see him, no one would notice him, till he had his fingers on their throat. Only a few hours ago he had worn it, and caught a small goblin-imp. How it squeaked! He still had a bone or two left to gnaw, but he wanted something softer.”

Maybe?

It is a nice try, but no dice. 

If I get backed into a corner I'll make a big deal about the difference between a goblin and an orc.  :P   I hate to be that petty, but as a forum warrior I refuse to lose face.

I think "imp" in that passage is a reference to stature and not "child".

Nick_Shively

Wargfoot said:

Sovrath said:

Wargfoot said:

Elidien_ga said:

But like many others, I guess its popular to hate, jump to conclusions, and be part of the crowd. Hope you find happiness in some other story.

I think there is quite a bit of conclusion jumping right here...

That aside, I'd be interested in any passages that talk about orc children in "The Hobbit".
I think you made that up.

“No one would see him, no one would notice him, till he had his fingers on their throat. Only a few hours ago he had worn it, and caught a small goblin-imp. How it squeaked! He still had a bone or two left to gnaw, but he wanted something softer.”

Maybe?

It is a nice try, but no dice. 

If I get backed into a corner I'll make a big deal about the difference between a goblin and an orc.  :P   I hate to be that petty, but as a forum warrior I refuse to lose face.

I think "imp" in that passage is a reference to stature and not "child".

Orcs and goblins are the same in Middle Earth.

Anyway, there's also this passaged from Silmarillion chapter 3:

"For the Orcs had life and multiplied after the manner of the Children of Iluvatar."

Sovrath

Wargfoot said:

Sovrath said:

Wargfoot said:

Elidien_ga said:

But like many others, I guess its popular to hate, jump to conclusions, and be part of the crowd. Hope you find happiness in some other story.

I think there is quite a bit of conclusion jumping right here...

That aside, I'd be interested in any passages that talk about orc children in "The Hobbit".
I think you made that up.

“No one would see him, no one would notice him, till he had his fingers on their throat. Only a few hours ago he had worn it, and caught a small goblin-imp. How it squeaked! He still had a bone or two left to gnaw, but he wanted something softer.”

Maybe?

It is a nice try, but no dice. 

If I get backed into a corner I'll make a big deal about the difference between a goblin and an orc.  :P   I hate to be that petty, but as a forum warrior I refuse to lose face.

I think "imp" in that passage is a reference to stature and not "child".

Like Nick said they are both the same thing. I know when I was younger they that sometimes children were referred to as little imps. 

Wargfoot

Nick_Shively said:

Wargfoot said:

Sovrath said:

Wargfoot said:

Elidien_ga said:

But like many others, I guess its popular to hate, jump to conclusions, and be part of the crowd. Hope you find happiness in some other story.

I think there is quite a bit of conclusion jumping right here...

That aside, I'd be interested in any passages that talk about orc children in "The Hobbit".
I think you made that up.

“No one would see him, no one would notice him, till he had his fingers on their throat. Only a few hours ago he had worn it, and caught a small goblin-imp. How it squeaked! He still had a bone or two left to gnaw, but he wanted something softer.”

Maybe?

It is a nice try, but no dice. 

If I get backed into a corner I'll make a big deal about the difference between a goblin and an orc.  :P   I hate to be that petty, but as a forum warrior I refuse to lose face.

I think "imp" in that passage is a reference to stature and not "child".

Orcs and goblins are the same in Middle Earth.

Anyway, there's also this passaged from Silmarillion chapter 3:

"For the Orcs had life and multiplied after the manner of the Children of Iluvatar."

I don't care what the Silmarillion has to say about it.
The book that was referenced was "The Hobbit".

An imp can mean "child", but it can also mean "small".
I choose to take it as Tolkien meant it to be read - ya'll can read your big-government-supress-freedom-slave-labor-cell-phone-wokeism into it all you want, but I'm a originalist.

That aside, nicely played. 

ValdemarJ

Wargfoot said:

Nick_Shively said:

Wargfoot said:

Sovrath said:

Wargfoot said:

Elidien_ga said:

But like many others, I guess its popular to hate, jump to conclusions, and be part of the crowd. Hope you find happiness in some other story.

I think there is quite a bit of conclusion jumping right here...

That aside, I'd be interested in any passages that talk about orc children in "The Hobbit".
I think you made that up.

“No one would see him, no one would notice him, till he had his fingers on their throat. Only a few hours ago he had worn it, and caught a small goblin-imp. How it squeaked! He still had a bone or two left to gnaw, but he wanted something softer.”

Maybe?

It is a nice try, but no dice. 

If I get backed into a corner I'll make a big deal about the difference between a goblin and an orc.  :P   I hate to be that petty, but as a forum warrior I refuse to lose face.

I think "imp" in that passage is a reference to stature and not "child".

Orcs and goblins are the same in Middle Earth.

Anyway, there's also this passaged from Silmarillion chapter 3:

"For the Orcs had life and multiplied after the manner of the Children of Iluvatar."

I don't care what the Silmarillion has to say about it.
The book that was referenced was "The Hobbit".

An imp can mean "child", but it can also mean "small".
I choose to take it as Tolkien meant it to be read - ya'll can read your big-government-supress-freedom-slave-labor-cell-phone-wokeism into it all you want, but I'm a originalist.

That aside, nicely played. 

Gross. What's the point in having a discussion if this is the response. I went so far as to start looking up more reference material and context, until I read this, but you don't seem interested in having a discussion. I think that's a big reason so few post here anymore.

Scot

Taking one post and saying that's why we don't post that much? I think that is down to each of us, you can't blame another poster.

The Orc/Goblin (looked more like goblins to me) issue in RoP is there if you are a Tolkien fan; my concern is this may lead to a "prejudice against those who are different" storyline, maybe that's already happened? The imposition of our modern morals on every source no matter how bizarre, well such a take has to be questioned.

Sovrath

ValdemarJ said:

Wargfoot said:

Nick_Shively said:

Wargfoot said:

Sovrath said:

Wargfoot said:

Elidien_ga said:

But like many others, I guess its popular to hate, jump to conclusions, and be part of the crowd. Hope you find happiness in some other story.

I think there is quite a bit of conclusion jumping right here...

That aside, I'd be interested in any passages that talk about orc children in "The Hobbit".
I think you made that up.

“No one would see him, no one would notice him, till he had his fingers on their throat. Only a few hours ago he had worn it, and caught a small goblin-imp. How it squeaked! He still had a bone or two left to gnaw, but he wanted something softer.”

Maybe?

It is a nice try, but no dice. 

If I get backed into a corner I'll make a big deal about the difference between a goblin and an orc.  :P   I hate to be that petty, but as a forum warrior I refuse to lose face.

I think "imp" in that passage is a reference to stature and not "child".

Orcs and goblins are the same in Middle Earth.

Anyway, there's also this passaged from Silmarillion chapter 3:

"For the Orcs had life and multiplied after the manner of the Children of Iluvatar."

I don't care what the Silmarillion has to say about it.
The book that was referenced was "The Hobbit".

An imp can mean "child", but it can also mean "small".
I choose to take it as Tolkien meant it to be read - ya'll can read your big-government-supress-freedom-slave-labor-cell-phone-wokeism into it all you want, but I'm a originalist.

That aside, nicely played. 

Gross. What's the point in having a discussion if this is the response. I went so far as to start looking up more reference material and context, until I read this, but you don't seem interested in having a discussion. I think that's a big reason so few post here anymore.

I think you missed the humor it was something of a joke.

Wargfoot

ValdemarJ said:

Gross. What's the point in having a discussion if this is the response. I went so far as to start looking up more reference material and context, until I read this, but you don't seem interested in having a discussion. I think that's a big reason so few post here anymore.

Wasn't my intention to offend.

I think referencing orc children would be odd, even if just from the standpoint of nobody wanting to read about children of any sort being killed.  I doubt Tolkien would intentionally go there - especially since the focus seems to be (as someone else mentioned) to provide an evil foil for the good guys.

I was bemoaning the fact in earlier posts that our culture seems unduly obsessed with humanizing evil, and less interested in fighting it - or even more weird, humanizing violent evil while absolutely demonizing different opinions.

I don't intend that to be political, it is just something that is showing up in films/games, and like anything, it is a mixed bag of some good parts to it and some really bad parts.

Scot

Wargfoot said:

ValdemarJ said:

Gross. What's the point in having a discussion if this is the response. I went so far as to start looking up more reference material and context, until I read this, but you don't seem interested in having a discussion. I think that's a big reason so few post here anymore.

Wasn't my intention to offend.

I think referencing orc children would be odd, even if just from the standpoint of nobody wanting to read about children of any sort being killed.  I doubt Tolkien would intentionally go there - especially since the focus seems to be (as someone else mentioned) to provide an evil foil for the good guys....

Dodgy stuff with babies is rightly left out of "entertainment", the word sort of tells you why. I could see a show referencing it without showing it, but I would expect there to be a narrative or character building reason.

Nick_Shively

Scot said:

Wargfoot said:

ValdemarJ said:

Gross. What's the point in having a discussion if this is the response. I went so far as to start looking up more reference material and context, until I read this, but you don't seem interested in having a discussion. I think that's a big reason so few post here anymore.

Wasn't my intention to offend.

I think referencing orc children would be odd, even if just from the standpoint of nobody wanting to read about children of any sort being killed.  I doubt Tolkien would intentionally go there - especially since the focus seems to be (as someone else mentioned) to provide an evil foil for the good guys....

Dodgy stuff with babies is rightly left out of "entertainment", the word sort of tells you why. I could see a show referencing it without showing it, but I would expect there to be a narrative or character building reason.

Goblin Slayer would like a word. He doesn't have a problem killing goblin babies...on screen.

Elidien_ga

The Hobbit's 17th chapter references Bolg, an orc who is the son of Azog.

https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Bolg

Tolkien also confirms that "For the Orcs had life and multiplied after the manner of the Children of Ilúvatar" so that confirms reproduction. I do not want to go into more detail because that brings up all kinds of questions of "How are orc babies made" and that's one book I do not want to read or see pictures from.

So orcs had babies and babies had parents and that confirms some level of culture. There are other examples of orcs being more than just bloodthirsty warriors as well.

Tolkien did not go into detail so, like with many topics, we have little information to go on.

Aeander

I won't argue with a free Lego LotR

Scot

Elidien_ga said:

The Hobbit's 17th chapter references Bolg, an orc who is the son of Azog.

https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Bolg

Tolkien also confirms that "For the Orcs had life and multiplied after the manner of the Children of Ilúvatar" so that confirms reproduction. I do not want to go into more detail because that brings up all kinds of questions of "How are orc babies made" and that's one book I do not want to read or see pictures from.

So orcs had babies and babies had parents and that confirms some level of culture. There are other examples of orcs being more than just bloodthirsty warriors as well.

Tolkien did not go into detail so, like with many topics, we have little information to go on.

This is where we differ, yes you can extrapolate out, but what sort of culture are you extrapolating out too? If you just form the culture (like so much of RoP it seems) around the story you want to tell you are throwing lore to the wind, an Orc marriage, I can't sit and think, yeah Tolkein might have come up with that. Come on.

But as you said elsewhere you enjoy the series despite all the criticism you give it, for me there would be one step too many and I would have to say "That's all folks!"

Some of our other posters are going to give the series a try, hope it goes well for them, but I am not going to be surprised if they come back and start ranting on here.

Xoph

Wargfoot said:

Elidien_ga said:

But like many others, I guess its popular to hate, jump to conclusions, and be part of the crowd. Hope you find happiness in some other story.

I think there is quite a bit of conclusion jumping right here...

That aside, I'd be interested in any passages that talk about orc children in "The Hobbit".
I think you made that up.

You're clearly not a LOTR fan if you don't know who Azog is...

Let the adults discuss the show, the kids table is in the corner - over there.

Nanfoodle

Xoph said:

Wargfoot said:

Elidien_ga said:

But like many others, I guess its popular to hate, jump to conclusions, and be part of the crowd. Hope you find happiness in some other story.

I think there is quite a bit of conclusion jumping right here...

That aside, I'd be interested in any passages that talk about orc children in "The Hobbit".
I think you made that up.

You're clearly not a LOTR fan if you don't know who Azog is...

Let the adults discuss the show, the kids table is in the corner - over there.

Some of my fav stories in comics is the "What If" series. Its fun to read about a world where Thanos beat the Avengers. Or the countless stories told. I get there is no What If label on this show but its how I take these things and just enjoy them for what they are. The show is straight up well done. Why slight it? We dont get enough quality stories in this type of theme.  

Wargfoot

Xoph said:

Wargfoot said:

Elidien_ga said:

But like many others, I guess its popular to hate, jump to conclusions, and be part of the crowd. Hope you find happiness in some other story.

I think there is quite a bit of conclusion jumping right here...

That aside, I'd be interested in any passages that talk about orc children in "The Hobbit".
I think you made that up.

You're clearly not a LOTR fan if you don't know who Azog is...

Let the adults discuss the show, the kids table is in the corner - over there.

Children can refer to an age group.
Children can refer to a relationship.

I'll give you one guess as to which one I meant - you have some competition though, the little imps over at the kids table got it right on the first guess.

Azog's son was a child (of Azog), but was he a child (age wise) when he enters the story?

Asm0deus

Nick_Shively said:

Wargfoot said:

Sovrath said:

Wargfoot said:

Elidien_ga said:

But like many others, I guess its popular to hate, jump to conclusions, and be part of the crowd. Hope you find happiness in some other story.

I think there is quite a bit of conclusion jumping right here...

That aside, I'd be interested in any passages that talk about orc children in "The Hobbit".
I think you made that up.

“No one would see him, no one would notice him, till he had his fingers on their throat. Only a few hours ago he had worn it, and caught a small goblin-imp. How it squeaked! He still had a bone or two left to gnaw, but he wanted something softer.”

Maybe?

It is a nice try, but no dice. 

If I get backed into a corner I'll make a big deal about the difference between a goblin and an orc.  :P   I hate to be that petty, but as a forum warrior I refuse to lose face.

I think "imp" in that passage is a reference to stature and not "child".

Orcs and goblins are the same in Middle Earth.



Anyway, there's also this passaged from Silmarillion chapter 3:



"For the Orcs had life and multiplied after the manner of the Children of Iluvatar."

Peeps are misunderstanding some things here I think. That isn't refering to a child per say.

See here:

https://www.glyphweb.com/arda/i/imps.php

 Imps 

Small creatures of Middle-earth

Imps were not a separate type of creature in Tolkien's world, but rather a smaller and relatively harmless being of any kind. The smallest, least powerful Orcs were referred to as Goblin-imps, at least by Gollum, and the Mouth of Sauron used the same word to refer to Hobbits. The word imp comes originally from an Old English term for a young plant shoot, and from that source developed to imply a young person or child (and only later a mischievous supernatural being).

Now with that out of the way the egregious thing isn't the fact that orcs can mate and make babies BUT the fact that they tried to portray them, with that scene in question, as more innocent creatures that were only fighting because they had not choice and were forced and as having loving, protective family units.

The above here is a bit of hogwash. While Tolkien may have had themes of shades of grey the fact is there was goodly races and evil races.

Also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tolkien's_monsters

The wikipedia is a good read in itself on this matter.

Sovrath

Asm0deus said:

Nick_Shively said:

Wargfoot said:

Sovrath said:

Wargfoot said:

Elidien_ga said:

But like many others, I guess its popular to hate, jump to conclusions, and be part of the crowd. Hope you find happiness in some other story.

I think there is quite a bit of conclusion jumping right here...

That aside, I'd be interested in any passages that talk about orc children in "The Hobbit".
I think you made that up.

“No one would see him, no one would notice him, till he had his fingers on their throat. Only a few hours ago he had worn it, and caught a small goblin-imp. How it squeaked! He still had a bone or two left to gnaw, but he wanted something softer.”

Maybe?

It is a nice try, but no dice. 

If I get backed into a corner I'll make a big deal about the difference between a goblin and an orc.  :P   I hate to be that petty, but as a forum warrior I refuse to lose face.

I think "imp" in that passage is a reference to stature and not "child".

Orcs and goblins are the same in Middle Earth.



Anyway, there's also this passaged from Silmarillion chapter 3:



"For the Orcs had life and multiplied after the manner of the Children of Iluvatar."

Peeps are misunderstanding some things here I think. That isn't refering to a child per say.

See here:

https://www.glyphweb.com/arda/i/imps.php

 Imps 

Small creatures of Middle-earth

Imps were not a separate type of creature in Tolkien's world, but rather a smaller and relatively harmless being of any kind. The smallest, least powerful Orcs were referred to as Goblin-imps, at least by Gollum, and the Mouth of Sauron used the same word to refer to Hobbits. The word imp comes originally from an Old English term for a young plant shoot, and from that source developed to imply a young person or child (and only later a mischievous supernatural being).

Now with that out of the way the egregious thing isn't the fact that orcs can mate and make babies BUT the fact that they tried to portray them, with that scene in question, as more innocent creatures that were only fighting because they had not choice and were forced and as having loving, protective family units.

The above here is a bit of hogwash. While Tolkien may have had themes of shades of grey the fact is there was goodly races and evil races.

Also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tolkien's_monsters

The wikipedia is a good read in itself on this matter.

You get an "insightful" But I must ask ... where does this information actually come from. It's my experience that "wiki's" aren't the most reliable things.

Asm0deus

Sovrath said:

Asm0deus said:

Nick_Shively said:

Wargfoot said:

Sovrath said:

Wargfoot said:

Elidien_ga said:

But like many others, I guess its popular to hate, jump to conclusions, and be part of the crowd. Hope you find happiness in some other story.

I think there is quite a bit of conclusion jumping right here...

That aside, I'd be interested in any passages that talk about orc children in "The Hobbit".
I think you made that up.

“No one would see him, no one would notice him, till he had his fingers on their throat. Only a few hours ago he had worn it, and caught a small goblin-imp. How it squeaked! He still had a bone or two left to gnaw, but he wanted something softer.”

Maybe?

It is a nice try, but no dice. 

If I get backed into a corner I'll make a big deal about the difference between a goblin and an orc.  :P   I hate to be that petty, but as a forum warrior I refuse to lose face.

I think "imp" in that passage is a reference to stature and not "child".

Orcs and goblins are the same in Middle Earth.



Anyway, there's also this passaged from Silmarillion chapter 3:



"For the Orcs had life and multiplied after the manner of the Children of Iluvatar."

Peeps are misunderstanding some things here I think. That isn't refering to a child per say.

See here:

https://www.glyphweb.com/arda/i/imps.php

 Imps 

Small creatures of Middle-earth

Imps were not a separate type of creature in Tolkien's world, but rather a smaller and relatively harmless being of any kind. The smallest, least powerful Orcs were referred to as Goblin-imps, at least by Gollum, and the Mouth of Sauron used the same word to refer to Hobbits. The word imp comes originally from an Old English term for a young plant shoot, and from that source developed to imply a young person or child (and only later a mischievous supernatural being).

Now with that out of the way the egregious thing isn't the fact that orcs can mate and make babies BUT the fact that they tried to portray them, with that scene in question, as more innocent creatures that were only fighting because they had not choice and were forced and as having loving, protective family units.

The above here is a bit of hogwash. While Tolkien may have had themes of shades of grey the fact is there was goodly races and evil races.

Also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tolkien's_monsters

The wikipedia is a good read in itself on this matter.

You get an "insightful" But I must ask ... where does this information actually come from. It's my experience that "wiki's" aren't the most reliable things.

Like I previously said whether "imp" means just a creature of smaller size or actually refers to a child orc is irrelevant really to the main point most peeps are objecting to which I explained in the latter part of my post and the links backing up those claim from wikipedia should have their sources at the bottom of the wikipedia post like they usually do.

Sovrath

Asm0deus said:

Sovrath said:

Asm0deus said:

Nick_Shively said:

Wargfoot said:

Sovrath said:

Wargfoot said:

Elidien_ga said:

But like many others, I guess its popular to hate, jump to conclusions, and be part of the crowd. Hope you find happiness in some other story.

I think there is quite a bit of conclusion jumping right here...

That aside, I'd be interested in any passages that talk about orc children in "The Hobbit".
I think you made that up.

“No one would see him, no one would notice him, till he had his fingers on their throat. Only a few hours ago he had worn it, and caught a small goblin-imp. How it squeaked! He still had a bone or two left to gnaw, but he wanted something softer.”

Maybe?

It is a nice try, but no dice. 

If I get backed into a corner I'll make a big deal about the difference between a goblin and an orc.  :P   I hate to be that petty, but as a forum warrior I refuse to lose face.

I think "imp" in that passage is a reference to stature and not "child".

Orcs and goblins are the same in Middle Earth.



Anyway, there's also this passaged from Silmarillion chapter 3:



"For the Orcs had life and multiplied after the manner of the Children of Iluvatar."

Peeps are misunderstanding some things here I think. That isn't refering to a child per say.

See here:

https://www.glyphweb.com/arda/i/imps.php

 Imps 

Small creatures of Middle-earth

Imps were not a separate type of creature in Tolkien's world, but rather a smaller and relatively harmless being of any kind. The smallest, least powerful Orcs were referred to as Goblin-imps, at least by Gollum, and the Mouth of Sauron used the same word to refer to Hobbits. The word imp comes originally from an Old English term for a young plant shoot, and from that source developed to imply a young person or child (and only later a mischievous supernatural being).

Now with that out of the way the egregious thing isn't the fact that orcs can mate and make babies BUT the fact that they tried to portray them, with that scene in question, as more innocent creatures that were only fighting because they had not choice and were forced and as having loving, protective family units.

The above here is a bit of hogwash. While Tolkien may have had themes of shades of grey the fact is there was goodly races and evil races.

Also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tolkien's_monsters

The wikipedia is a good read in itself on this matter.

You get an "insightful" But I must ask ... where does this information actually come from. It's my experience that "wiki's" aren't the most reliable things.

Like I previously said whether "imp" means just a creature of smaller size or actually refers to a child orc is irrelevant really to the main point most peeps are objecting to which I explained in the latter part of my post and the links backing up those claim from wikipedia should have their sources at the bottom of the wikipedia post like they usually do.

I was referring to Encyclopedia of Arda which doesn't seem to be well documented. Seems like they list a source for something and then someone then gives their opinion.

In any case, doesn't matter as you say.

I do agree that their portrayal as a race that is being forced to fight isn't really congruent with my understanding of the lore. However, I suppose that's what the show runners want to add. I really don't like it when they do that stuff.