PVP Design 101 - MOB Training in Ashes of Creation

Kyleran

Apparently the designers of Ashes of Creation have almost no familiarity with how players used and abused certain mechanics in early MMORPGs such as the time honored training of MOBs into groups to kill them all.

Reports from the Ashes Reddit say solo players are regularly training mobs into groups at favored camps such as HH, Steel Bloom, Carphin…and making major bank from looting glint from the dead bodies.

Seems to be getting so bad groups are often disbanding out of frustration 

The usual solutions being tossed out are for groups to solve the issue with PVP or CC but apparently the corruption system isn't up for this in ways I couldn't quite fathom from what I read.

There were some ideas being kicked around by several posters, such as not having Mobs change aggro based on their proximity to other players but there are other considerations such as dealing with AOE damage and heal aggro being raised.

Are there any good solutions you've seen for this in other games or should this just be expected emergent gameplay in a title such as this, so perhaps is working as intended?

Sovrath

Wouldn't the easiest thing be the monster (or whatever) prioritizing the single player unless another player attempts to pull it?

Vrika

That problem should be easily solved with stuff like:
 -Mobs do not gain proximity aggro after they've been pulled far enough
 -Mobs do not gain aggro from healing/buffing if neither the healer nor the one being healed have any aggro

If need to be, they could also give the players a toggle where AoE damage abilities consider anyone who doesn't have aggro on them or any of their group members as friendly target.

Brainy

Well I havent played AoC, but I will take a stab at countering these solutions with what is likely happening.

PVE groups usually go to places they can make good xp using AOE farming.  They generally pull enough mobs near their top of their capability for good XP gains.

Solo farmer in that area is probably higher level or has speed buffs to get away from agro.

PVE group pulls a group of mobs and AOE CC's or AOE them down,  if they dont do this fast enough they die.
Solo guy pulls a bunch of mobs and runs in circles around the group, if the group doesnt AOE they die,  if they AOE then they hit these mobs and die,  if they AOE CC then they have more mobs to kill and die.  Pretty much they going to die.

Brainy

Vrika said:

That problem should be easily solved with stuff like:
 -Mobs do not gain proximity aggro after they've been pulled far enough
 -Mobs do not gain aggro from healing/buffing if neither the healer nor the one being healed have any aggro

If need to be, they could also give the players a toggle where AoE damage abilities consider anyone who doesn't have aggro on them or any of their group members as friendly target.

people will abuse these systems, where having an ALT outside the group can pull and the group can just single target the mobs they want thus avoiding mechanics of the game like mobs that call friends or mobs that bring friends.

If healer doesnt get agro from healing in the area then people can kite mobs around the group in circles all day and the group can just pull them off 1 at a time.  That means the multiple mob mechanic is nullified making the area much easier than it should be.

Brainy

Here is the solution, but this game wont like it.

1) Dont let people loot corpses they didnt do damage too, or heal party members that did damage...

2) PVE zones, no loot corpses at all

3) PVE instances

4) PVP zones where their isnt this corruption system in place, so you can just kill this person.

olepi

Brainy said:

Here is the solution, but this game wont like it.

1) Dont let people loot corpses they didnt do damage too, or heal party members that did damage...

2) PVE zones, no loot corpses at all

3) PVE instances

4) PVP zones where their isnt this corruption system in place, so you can just kill this person.

PvE zones, griefers can still train mobs into others but they can't loot any corpses. 

PvP zones where they can loot corpses but can also be attacked themselves. Put special mobs in PvP zones that drop stuff the PvE mobs don't. Make these drops especially good for PvP'ing.

Angrakhan

This problem will be self correcting. Either the developers will change the mechanics of the game or the vast majority of players will quit to play games with a better design causing this game to get shut down. Either way, problem solved. I'm betting on the latter outcome.

Vrika

Brainy said:

Vrika said:

That problem should be easily solved with stuff like:
 -Mobs do not gain proximity aggro after they've been pulled far enough
 -Mobs do not gain aggro from healing/buffing if neither the healer nor the one being healed have any aggro

If need to be, they could also give the players a toggle where AoE damage abilities consider anyone who doesn't have aggro on them or any of their group members as friendly target.

people will abuse these systems, where having an ALT outside the group can pull and the group can just single target the mobs they want thus avoiding mechanics of the game like mobs that call friends or mobs that bring friends.

If healer doesnt get agro from healing in the area then people can kite mobs around the group in circles all day and the group can just pull them off 1 at a time.  That means the multiple mob mechanic is nullified making the area much easier than it should be.

If needed, the game can cheat by making a mechanism like "gaining aggro on mob A means you automatically gain smaller amount also for B, C and D".

Also, in my original proposal the healer would have already gained aggro if he gave any healing to the kiter. If the game allows someone to kite a large group of mobs without any support for prolonged period, then it already has a mechanism where you can have one kiter while the rest act as single target DPS and pull one mob at a time from the group being kited.

Too easy kiting is a separate issue from how others players get the agro. If I remember correctly, it was quite successfully solved already 20 years ago in WoW Vanilla.

EDIT: With that said, I'm not saying that my solution would be perfect. I think making the system good requires a lot of testing and iteration. I think Ashes might be suffering a bit from a situation where their CEO believes that he is correct and doesn't want to go through the process where testers are tasked with inventing ways to abuse the system

Kyleran

Looks like the players are doing a great job finding ways to abuse the game's systems.

Scot

My guess is that this is not yet a priority to fix, but if a lot of players are talking about it that should focus the studios attention. 

ValdemarJ

This shouldn't require a fix. It's a basic design issue that has been completely overlooked. It really undermines what little confidence I had in them to bring the game to a launch point.

Ashes is inspired by ArchAge which took direct inspiration and design from Lineage. In Lineage 1 mobs could be trained and powerful groups would melt the train and grab the XP. Weaker groups would flee. Either way the dope pulling the train would likely end up a hunting target some time later.

Lineage PvP has a lot of great designs that hold up to this day. These designs removed a lot of the need for complex rules.

One design is the ability to extract quickly through consumable scrolls and some class spells. Players in a losing situation can more often than not remove themselves. It isn't a guarantee, so there is a risk, but it does provide a tactical option.

Another is that Lineage doesn't try and pretend to not be a PvP first game. Every mob is an XP and loot box. Every player too for that matter, but mobs don't take revenge. All resources are needed, wanted, contested, and fought over. Anyone can attack anyone else and the only main rule is over whether someone attacks back and karma loss.

The point is everyone expects that any other player who enters the screen may attack. Everything is done with that in mind. Farming, resource gathering, dungeon running, whatever. Groups and players may say hi and pass each other by, and they mostly do because PvP can be costly, but it isn't a guarantee and there were very few "safe spaces" for players to go.

Ashes is the opposite, trying to have its cake and eat it too. It won't work. It's trying to make a complex structure of rules so they can rake in that sweet revenue from the "Ima pve player who will play a pvp game if I'm safe" crowd. The only massively successful MMO I can think of that has pulled this off is WoW, in my opinion.

Wargfoot

Well, any hope I harbored that the developers where familiar with PvP was just ganked and dry looted.

Clowns.

Brainy

Vrika said:

If the game allows someone to kite a large group of mobs without any support for prolonged period, then it already has a mechanism where you can have one kiter while the rest act as single target DPS and pull one mob at a time from the group being kited.

Many games prevent kiting by giving healers aggro when they heal anyone, not just the kiter. This discourages players from endlessly running mobs around while others DPS them down.

However, this method doesn’t work if mobs are being chained through your party, as it would still trigger healer aggro.

That’s why instances are necessary—without them, this would happen constantly. The alternative is to make mobs tagged by another group completely immune to your group’s aggro, attacks, and XP.

Ultimately, kiting in PvE is a cheesy mechanic, but it’s a problem that’s already been addressed with these solutions.

Vrika

Brainy said:

Vrika said:

If the game allows someone to kite a large group of mobs without any support for prolonged period, then it already has a mechanism where you can have one kiter while the rest act as single target DPS and pull one mob at a time from the group being kited.

Many games prevent kiting by giving healers aggro when they heal anyone, not just the kiter. This discourages players from endlessly running mobs around while others DPS them down.

However, this method doesn’t work if mobs are being chained through your party, as it would still trigger healer aggro.

That’s why instances are necessary—without them, this would happen constantly. The alternative is to make mobs tagged by another group completely immune to your group’s aggro, attacks, and XP.

Ultimately, kiting in PvE is a cheesy mechanic, but it’s a problem that’s already been addressed with these solutions.

Kiting a huge group can be prevented by having the mobs lose interest in you after running for some time.

Also the mobs can be given tools to slow a player and/or close the distance so that they kill the kiter.

I know how trains worked back in EQ 1 era, but I think that was originally more of an accident rather than designers intention. Today the devs can have the mobs either lose interest or kill the kiter unless they decide they want to allow kiting huge groups in their game.

Brainy

Vrika said:

Kiting a huge group can be prevented by having the mobs lose interest in you after running for some time.

This doesnt solve the problem of allowing groups to pull mega pulls and run in circles with no reprecussions.  Although leashes are fine this doesnt solve the problem.

Vrika said:

Also the mobs can be given tools to slow a player and/or close the distance so that they kill the kiter.

Adding a mechanic that nobody can just run?  That has consequences.

I agree with using mob snares, anti-kiting, and kiter-killing mechanics in instanced dungeons.

But applying this to the open world is risky. I've seen games implement similar mechanics in beta, only to nerf them later due to unintended consequences.

Solo players just trying to travel, or join their group, or farm nodes end up getting hunted and snared by every mob, turning simple tasks into a death trap for small groups or solo players.

Now the game has to give players anti snare abilities, sprints, cc etc... then we back to kiter classes in the original problem.

Vrika

Brainy said:

Vrika said:

Kiting a huge group can be prevented by having the mobs lose interest in you after running for some time.

This doesnt solve the problem of allowing groups to pull mega pulls and run in circles with no reprecussions.  Although leashes are fine this doesnt solve the problem.

I was not talking about a leash. I was talking about the AI deciding to abandon combat when conditions are met.

For example a condition that the AI abandons combat if it runs long enough time without taking any damage would prevent trains from forming (unless you can AoE the train you're kiting), allow for people to get out of fights by running away, and still allow players to move their fights to the other end of the map should they desire as long as they're able to actually fight the enemy when they're moving.

Scot

It's not rocket science since we have seen this all done before in so many MMOs (struggling to remember the last time this was a problem), it is guesswork on my part that this is easier to implement than many other systems. But its not like asking them to put player shop keepers in or revamp the combat system is it?

Wargfoot

This would be an understandable issue if it were 1997.

Brainy

Vrika said:

Brainy said:

Vrika said:

Kiting a huge group can be prevented by having the mobs lose interest in you after running for some time.

This doesnt solve the problem of allowing groups to pull mega pulls and run in circles with no reprecussions.  Although leashes are fine this doesnt solve the problem.

I was not talking about a leash. I was talking about the AI deciding to abandon combat when conditions are met.

For example a condition that the AI abandons combat if it runs long enough time without taking any damage would prevent trains from forming (unless you can AoE the train you're kiting), allow for people to get out of fights by running away, and still allow players to move their fights to the other end of the map should they desire as long as they're able to actually fight the enemy when they're moving.

I understood you the first time, but it seems you misunderstood me.

I said leashes (where entire group of mobs return to their spawn point if the kiter runs far away) are fine.  They need to either leave or fight together as a group.

However, your solution—having mobs lose interest over time if not attacked—can be easily abused and doesn’t address the issue.

Example:

Puller A aggros 30 mobs with a miniboss included, runs back to the group, and kites the mobs in circles while the group focuses down the boss. Eventually, the adds just walk back to their spawn, and the puller joins the boss fight. This completely bypasses the boss's adds, making it a cheesy exploit.

kitarad

@Brainy I am beginning to think you would make a good exploit detector.

Scot

Brainy said:

I understood you the first time, but it seems you misunderstood me.

I said leashes (where entire group of mobs return to their spawn point if the kiter runs far away) are fine.  They need to either leave or fight together as a group.

However, your solution—having mobs lose interest over time if not attacked—can be easily abused and doesn’t address the issue.

Example:

Puller A aggros 30 mobs with a miniboss included, runs back to the group, and kites the mobs in circles while the group focuses down the boss. Eventually, the adds just walk back to their spawn, and the puller joins the boss fight. This completely bypasses the boss's adds, making it a cheesy exploit.

You would ensure any "group" of npc's for combat were considered a "mob", in other words, if you aggro one you aggro them all. Not only that but what difficulty are we setting here? Are we saying that a mob cannot over take even the slowest of player avatars? I am all for skulls or whatever on a mob to show you should not aggro it, but if you do is there no price to be paid?

Kyleran

Scot said:

Brainy said:

I understood you the first time, but it seems you misunderstood me.

I said leashes (where entire group of mobs return to their spawn point if the kiter runs far away) are fine.  They need to either leave or fight together as a group.

However, your solution—having mobs lose interest over time if not attacked—can be easily abused and doesn’t address the issue.

Example:

Puller A aggros 30 mobs with a miniboss included, runs back to the group, and kites the mobs in circles while the group focuses down the boss. Eventually, the adds just walk back to their spawn, and the puller joins the boss fight. This completely bypasses the boss's adds, making it a cheesy exploit.

You would ensure any "group" of npc's for combat were considered a "mob", in other words, if you aggro one you aggro them all. Not only that but what difficulty are we setting here? Are we saying that a mob cannot over take even the slowest of player avatars? I am all for skulls or whatever on a mob to show you should not aggro it, but if you do is there no price to be paid?

These days don't players all run at the same speed pretty much since moving more quickly is considered a significant advantage, especially in PVP.?

Haven't seen a true speeder class in many years nor many games which offer speed buffs unique to specific classes.

Vrika

Brainy said:

Vrika said:

Brainy said:

Vrika said:

Kiting a huge group can be prevented by having the mobs lose interest in you after running for some time.

This doesnt solve the problem of allowing groups to pull mega pulls and run in circles with no reprecussions.  Although leashes are fine this doesnt solve the problem.

I was not talking about a leash. I was talking about the AI deciding to abandon combat when conditions are met.

For example a condition that the AI abandons combat if it runs long enough time without taking any damage would prevent trains from forming (unless you can AoE the train you're kiting), allow for people to get out of fights by running away, and still allow players to move their fights to the other end of the map should they desire as long as they're able to actually fight the enemy when they're moving.

I understood you the first time, but it seems you misunderstood me.

I said leashes (where entire group of mobs return to their spawn point if the kiter runs far away) are fine.  They need to either leave or fight together as a group.

However, your solution—having mobs lose interest over time if not attacked—can be easily abused and doesn’t address the issue.

Example:

Puller A aggros 30 mobs with a miniboss included, runs back to the group, and kites the mobs in circles while the group focuses down the boss. Eventually, the adds just walk back to their spawn, and the puller joins the boss fight. This completely bypasses the boss's adds, making it a cheesy exploit.

Yes, I misunderstood. I thought you were speaking about leashing them to a location instead of leashing to each other.

Though I think I already suggested a solution to that previously with the "generating aggro on mob A would generate smaller amount of aggro on B, C and D". With that mechanism everyone in group attacking boss would get aggro on all the mobs in the group...

...then whether or not the kiter is grouped with rest of the people, the healer who has small initial aggro on all the adds would get extra aggro on them with every heal he makes.

Wargfoot

Kyleran said:
These days don't players all run at the same speed pretty much since moving more quickly is considered a significant advantage, especially in PVP.?

Haven't seen a true speeder class in many years nor many games which offer speed buffs unique to specific classes.

Wargs in LOTRO are BUH-RU-TAL with speed.
They've a sprint that is a beautiful way to decide a battle really isn't for you.

Can catch someone on horseback, which was fun and gave me Wild Kingdom vibes.

Slapshot1188

Kyleran said:

Looks like the players are doing a great job finding ways to abuse the game's systems.

They always do.  It's what i tried to explain to Nanfoodle, Ponzini and some of the others.  

This is NOT the time to be shouting "all is well".  Release is 18 months away (or more). Plenty of time to find these issues, point them out, and get them fixed, but NOT if we don't acknowledge them.