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Some Obvious Truths

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  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 32,917
    Scot said:
    Gorwe said:
    Any suggestions for my problem?
    I do, have you taken a break? During my gaming "career" I have taken three breaks from gaming. Roughly two three month and one four month one, each time I came back I was refreshed and ready to game. But we become jaded as we get older, harder and harder to please, what are you like with TV programmes, I often find myself watching half of the first episode and thinking this is just boring and skip it?

    My kids a full fledged gen Z and whatever the next generation is/will be, both love Youtube but do not watch tv shows or movies. They are too long and involved and in depth. Its not surprising that the same mentality is in gaming too. Even the books they read - lots of graphic novels and similar. Quick, drop in and drop out reading if you will.


    That is where we are at, but did the studios follow the demands of younger players or create that demand? I think both worked to reinforce one another.

    I hope that the youngsters will mature into TV and films, but maybe they won't. TV news is following the same route news papers did in the noughties, less and less viewers. Maybe TV series are going to follow that downhill trend.

    "Regardless of there being things that could have been done differently throughout development, he's a good human and full of heart"
    I accept that the business side has to have a say but the problem lies in what you went on to say. You mentioned about the business side taking too much creative control, well that sailed years and years ago, that's where they are now.

    I picked out this quote you found because it highlights what I see as a strange social trend we have had for years now.

    When I employ a plumber, purchase a game or elect a political party, I do not care if they are nice people. I do not care if they are "good humans" or whatever. What I care about is will they get the job done? Is the plumber going to fix the sink, is the game going to good, is the party going to make the decisions I think it needs to make?

    This obsession with being kind is crazy, I don't want people from the gaming studio or a political party to be good dinner guests, the sort of people I want to socialise with. They just have to do their job.
    I care that they are good people. That helps inform how they do their jobs. If they have compassion and empathy that will affect their decisions.

    I’ve worked with some not so great plumbers who did the job but took their sweet time in order to milk it.
    ValdemarJKyleranAlBQuirky
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  • harken33harken33 Member UncommonPosts: 305
    Gorwe said:
    Any suggestions for my problem?

    Now for the mediocre games you at least have a few options.

    Option 1 - Try a genre you wouldn’t bother with otherwise; you play RPG’s try a shooter. If you like City builders play a racing game with track construction. Never played a souls like game, give one a shot.

    Option 2 – This requires you to have children / grandchildren / nieces / nephews etc basically at the phone / tablet stage living with you or visiting for the holidays. You should also plan to set up consoles / cpu games in advance that the children are allowed to play / play similar games at home. Being the cool dad / grampa / uncle who is into gaming they will want to demonstrate what they are playing on their phone / tablet.

    If you are *LUCKY* they will demonstrate some kind of IDLE game. Ask them how you play it, and you will discover its simply numbers going up and when the numbers are high enough they add something ( a building whatever) and the number goes up faster, that’s it numbers going up on a screen which they may or may not touch ever few minutes. After 30 minutes of this you will think whatever game, you were playing that was mediocre is outstanding, which should be enough to cure you. If not see option 2.5

    Option 2.5 - Remember when I mentioned having some other games setup they were allowed to play / already play at home? After 30 minutes of soul draining, feign interest in an IDLE game or possibly games plural (shudder) it’s time to put your plan in motion to save this child’s / children’s future.

    You (and I) may not like it but currently Fortnite is popular among the children in our family anyway that follow games (kids, nieces, nephews etc ages 5-23). Casually mention in everyone’s earshot I think you are too young to play this game (insert whatever game here, Fortnite, Mario party whatever you have prepared doesn’t matter) and watch the IDLE games get tossed by the wayside as they try and prove you wrong.

    Seeing them gathered around couch co-oping, cheering each other on, high fiving when a 9-year-old comes first in a match for the first time ever, and of course an 11-year-old girl telling her opponent to Get Wrecked as she takes them out really warms the heart and renews your spirit of gaming.


    Scot
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 32,917
    Here is my counter argument to Sven.

    We can look at a game company as having two sides: the business side and the creative side.

    Now, if the business side is the one that responsible for the financial well-being of the company, and is funding and marketing the game in the first place, should they not also have a say in what or how the final product should be? If upper management or the marketing department tells the creative side to change something, is that truly wrong? I don't think so. In fact, the business side has just as much of a right to make decisions about the product as the creative side, since they are financially responsible for the product and the company.

    But the problem happens when the business side doesn't truly understand what the market will like to or what will make their customers happy. This can result in interference in the creative process that hurts the success of the game. It can also result in the business side giving free reign to creatives who themselves have the wrong idea about what people will like, resulting in a game that is highly creative but no one is interested in.

    Case in point: Concord. Here is what is said about the game director for Concord: "Ryan deeply believed in that project and bringing players together through the joy in it," said a former developer. "Regardless of there being things that could have been done differently throughout development, he's a good human and full of heart" (source).

    It may be tempting to blame Sony, the business side, for interfering, but Sony didn't buy their studio until 2023, so "most of the decisions that sealed Concord's fate – in essence, the ones that led it to be an entirely unremarkable and forgettable live service title in a genre absolutely packed with heavy hitting competition – were probably made before Sony bought the studio. There's only so much blame that flows uphill here" (source).

    So, here you have a talented, passionate, creative team making a game for a several years that turned out to be a colossal financial failure. Maybe interference from the business side would have actually helped in this case.

    It's easy to blame the business side when a game turns out to be mediocre or a flop, who knows, maybe it was primarily the decisions of the creative side leading to that result.

    In conclusion, input from the business side is their right and is often necessary to create a product that is both satisfying to customers and keeps the company alive.
    Great point and one can also point to crowd funding for examples.

    Crowdfunding is supposed to help developers make their games without needing the suits to give them money.

    Sometimes it works but many times it doesn’t. Especially for MMORPG’s.
    xanthouscrownValdemarJ
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  • AngrakhanAngrakhan Member EpicPosts: 1,835
    I agree that crowdfunding is largely a case in point example of how the business side of a development shop is useful. Reining in scope is not a bad thing. Looking at some pie in the sky feature and asking the question "how much is this going to cost and how many more sales of the game will it produce?" is not a bad question to ask. I think it's easy for a crowdfunded game to assume they have a mandate from the players to build the game a certain way without considering the fact the same people giving the mandate often have minimal technical knowledge of how games are built and the costs involved nor what it takes to support a game long term. Everything has a cost. Complicated systems are easy to break when trying to fix bugs or add new features. Anyone who has played Star Citizen can attest to that.

    While it's easy to throw the business under the bus and point at systems that are simplified or "dumbed down" I think gamers tend to neglect the fact the game is in their hands and they're playing it. It got out the door. We have no idea what the original vision for the system was. It could have been some overly complex mess that was confusing, took much longer to develop, and ultimately added very little to the experience. 

    That all being said I also agree the business can go too far and lead to the copy/paste shovelware efforts that have been so frequent of late. Just because it's easy and fast doesn't make it a good game or one that is going to sell.

    There needs to be a balance.
    SovrathxanthouscrownCogohiAlBQuirky
  • TheocritusTheocritus Member LegendaryPosts: 10,009
    "That all being said I also agree the business can go too far and lead to the copy/paste shovelware efforts that have been so frequent of late. Just because it's easy and fast doesn't make it a good game or one that is going to sell."

    but yet when we look at the successs of many mobile games, they really are crap games....games like candy crush and Royal Clash and some of these others are just bad games, but they make money (alot of money) so we will get more and more of them until they stop making money....Really I have no clue now what will be successful and what wont....We also have to understand the differences in gaming now and 25 years ago.... Gaming now, for Gen Z, is either playing on a phone, tablet, or console...They seem to like games that are quick and dont need a long term commitment and they move on quickly.

    AlBQuirky
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 24,420
    edited December 18
    Sovrath said:
    I care that they are good people. That helps inform how they do their jobs. If they have compassion and empathy that will affect their decisions.

    I’ve worked with some not so great plumbers who did the job but took their sweet time in order to milk it.
    Well there, their personality is effecting their job, what you are alluding to is a form of corruption. But I would say is your plumbing knowledge good enough to be sure that's what they were doing? We are not talking pianos and musical notation here you know. :)


    ...but yet when we look at the successs of many mobile games, they really are crap games....games like candy crush and Royal Clash and some of these others are just bad games, but they make money (alot of money) so we will get more and more of them until they stop making money....Really I have no clue now what will be successful and what wont....We also have to understand the differences in gaming now and 25 years ago.... Gaming now, for Gen Z, is either playing on a phone, tablet, or console...They seem to like games that are quick and dont need a long term commitment and they move on quickly.


    When mobile started to become popular I think I quite rightly put that explosion down to players who had not played games before, what it took me years to realise was that gamers on other platforms were moving into the mobile gaming area. I just did not think it possible when they had a better machine.

    Now gaming for many youngsters skips PC and consoles, I would like to think if they get the bug they will move to a better system, but that's just wishful thinking.

    AlBQuirky
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 32,917
    Scot said:
    Sovrath said:
    I care that they are good people. That helps inform how they do their jobs. If they have compassion and empathy that will affect their decisions.

    I’ve worked with some not so great plumbers who did the job but took their sweet time in order to milk it.
    Well there, their personality is effecting their job, what you are alluding to is a form of corruption. But I would say is your plumbing knowledge good enough to be sure that's what they were doing? We are not talking pianos and musical notation here you know. :)



    In this case it is as I worked as a laborer/assistant to various plumbing and heating companies in order to make money for college.

    The jobs were done well just slower than necessary.
    ScotAlBQuirky
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  • olepiolepi Member EpicPosts: 3,053
    This reminds me of movies; the same problems with few truly great movies being made compared to the number of mediocre movies made just to make money. There are also indie movies that focus more on art than on commercial success.

    Movies can take a long time to make and cost a lot of money. Somewhere there is a businessman who has to approve the funds to make the movie. I'm sure they see a lot of pitches for potential new movies and discard most of them.
    AlBQuirky

    ------------
    2024: 47 years on the Net.


  • Elidien_gaElidien_ga Member UncommonPosts: 408
    I wonder how much early access and releasing unfinished games is contributing to this as well. Its like the old saying "You never get a 2nd chance to make a first impression". Sure some games recovered and did well but for every FFXIV success story there is a litany of failures. 

    Or how many people get burned out on early access and then ignore the actual launch. Take Valhiem for instance. By the time the game is finished and launches completed, it will be years and either most players will have played it and moved on or they were never interested to begin with. So companies see a surge of interest when EA drops but then it dies off and then the at launch, the game does poorly and the "business people" use that to say "I told you so" or "we need to do what this other game is doing" and we get the same ole same ole ad nauseum. 
    SovrathScotAlBQuirky
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 24,420
    edited December 19
    I wonder how much early access and releasing unfinished games is contributing to this as well. Its like the old saying "You never get a 2nd chance to make a first impression". Sure some games recovered and did well but for every FFXIV success story there is a litany of failures. 

    Or how many people get burned out on early access and then ignore the actual launch. Take Valhiem for instance. By the time the game is finished and launches completed, it will be years and either most players will have played it and moved on or they were never interested to begin with. So companies see a surge of interest when EA drops but then it dies off and then the at launch, the game does poorly and the "business people" use that to say "I told you so" or "we need to do what this other game is doing" and we get the same ole same ole ad nauseum. 
    Launched to early access acclaim in Feb 21, will Valhiem even be bothered to properly launch in 2025? What would be the point? That's just one of the issues with early access, it has diminished the importance of having a proper launch.

    I certainly think Early Access is part of this problem, we even saw it back in betas which I obviously approve of. Guys in the guild who were in the beta were always more prone to tiring of the game more quickly compared to those of us who came in at launch, only natural. This is why I never did betas, but thanks for testing it everyone who did. :)
    AlBQuirky
  • NeoyoshiNeoyoshi Member RarePosts: 1,489
    Though I love the sentiment behind Swen's words, it doesn't make any of what happened that night feel any better, much as the past TGA; the BG3 win did not help to offset the grossness and industrialized machine smell of The Game Awards since you can smell the machinery in that place, even through a video feed.


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  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 24,420
    Not sure how relevant this is but I just noticed Steam is telling me the average time gamers spent playing games launched this year was 15% of their playtime. Does that sound normal to you guys?
    AlBQuirky
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 32,917
    Scot said:
    Not sure how relevant this is but I just noticed Steam is telling me the average time gamers spent playing games launched this year was 15% of their playtime. Does that sound normal to you guys?
    What does that mean? How do they know what my playing time is? Or is this just a comparison to previous years.
    AlBQuirky
    Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb." 

    Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w


    Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547

    Try the "Special Edition." 'Cause it's "Special." https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/64878/?tab=description

    Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo 
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 24,420
    edited December 19
    Sovrath said:
    Scot said:
    Not sure how relevant this is but I just noticed Steam is telling me the average time gamers spent playing games launched this year was 15% of their playtime. Does that sound normal to you guys?
    What does that mean? How do they know what my playing time is? Or is this just a comparison to previous years.
    I got this end of year review, loads of data, you must get one as well. It compares you to the average for all gamers on Steam, so I am reading that as saying that in 2024 only 15% of the average players total hours this year was spent on games that launched this year. I found that hard believe, but maybe someone can throw some light on it.

    Look under your user name Year In Review.
    SovrathAlBQuirky
  • cameltosiscameltosis Member LegendaryPosts: 3,847
    Scot said:
    Sovrath said:
    Scot said:
    Not sure how relevant this is but I just noticed Steam is telling me the average time gamers spent playing games launched this year was 15% of their playtime. Does that sound normal to you guys?
    What does that mean? How do they know what my playing time is? Or is this just a comparison to previous years.
    I got this end of year review, loads of data, you must get one as well. It compares you to the average for all gamers on Steam, so I am reading that as saying that in 2024 only 15% of the average players total hours this year was spent on games that launched this year. I found that hard believe, but maybe someone can throw some light on it.

    Look under your user name Year In Review.

    Apparently I spent 83% of my gametime in Steam playing new games.

    That was basically just 3 games though - Palworld and Enshrouded back in the Spring, and then Planet Coaster 2 over the last month.


    The rest of the year I didn't really play Steam much (my gametime on Steam is way down), I was playing on MMO emulators instead.



    the stat I liked was I managed a 58 day streak (march and april for Enshrouded), compared to Steam average of 6 days. I really got my money's worth outta that game!
    ScotAlBQuirky
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  • TheocritusTheocritus Member LegendaryPosts: 10,009
    edited December 19
    Scot said:
    Sovrath said:
    Scot said:
    Not sure how relevant this is but I just noticed Steam is telling me the average time gamers spent playing games launched this year was 15% of their playtime. Does that sound normal to you guys?
    What does that mean? How do they know what my playing time is? Or is this just a comparison to previous years.
    I got this end of year review, loads of data, you must get one as well. It compares you to the average for all gamers on Steam, so I am reading that as saying that in 2024 only 15% of the average players total hours this year was spent on games that launched this year. I found that hard believe, but maybe someone can throw some light on it.

    Look under your user name Year In Review.

    Games played:
    New 61%  (average 15%)
    1-7 years old: 37% (average 47%)
    Classic games: 2% (average 38%)
    Most played: 7 Days to Die (52%, 10 year old game)
    Total games played: 19 (10 of them new)

    Against rest of steam community:
    Achevements: 565 (average 16)
    Games played 19 (average 4)
    Longest streak: 161 days (average 6)



    Some things that mess up my numbers: Most of my classic games are not played through Steam (EQ1, EQ2, Anarchy online all not thru steam)..... 10 new games played but several were refunded in less than 2 hours played...Demos count had 3-4 of those)....Also 7DTD is at least 9 years old but it "released" this year so I wonder if it is counted as a new game?
    Post edited by Theocritus on
    ScotAlBQuirky
  • xanthouscrownxanthouscrown Member UncommonPosts: 39
    edited December 19
    Scot said:
    Not sure how relevant this is but I just noticed Steam is telling me the average time gamers spent playing games launched this year was 15% of their playtime. Does that sound normal to you guys?
    It does seem low, but I could see it being normal when taking into account big multiplayer games like counterstrike and dota.

    I just noticed links for my 2022 and 2023 steam replay pages at the bottom of my 2024 page. According to those pages, the percentage of playtime spent by all Steam users in new releases during those years was 17% for 2022 and 9% for 2023. Curiously, Baldur's Gate 3 released in 2023.
    AlBQuirky
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 24,420
    Scot said:
    Not sure how relevant this is but I just noticed Steam is telling me the average time gamers spent playing games launched this year was 15% of their playtime. Does that sound normal to you guys?
    It does seem low, but I could see it being normal when taking into account big multiplayer games like counterstrike and dota.

    I just noticed links for my 2022 and 2023 steam replay pages at the bottom of my 2024 page. According to those pages, the percentage of playtime spent by all Steam users in new releases during those years was 17% for 2022 and 9% for 2023.
    So it bobs up and down as you would expect, 15% seems quite normal then, that must be right I can't see how it can be interpreted any other way.

    the stat I liked was I managed a 58 day streak (march and april for Enshrouded), compared to Steam average of 6 days. I really got my money's worth outta that game!
    Mine was 127 days, way too much gaming.
  • cheyanecheyane Member LegendaryPosts: 9,404
    Scot said:
    Not sure how relevant this is but I just noticed Steam is telling me the average time gamers spent playing games launched this year was 15% of their playtime. Does that sound normal to you guys?
    It does seem low, but I could see it being normal when taking into account big multiplayer games like counterstrike and dota.

    I just noticed links for my 2022 and 2023 steam replay pages at the bottom of my 2024 page. According to those pages, the percentage of playtime spent by all Steam users in new releases during those years was 17% for 2022 and 9% for 2023. Curiously, Baldur's Gate 3 released in 2023.
    Not even talking about finishing a game even 20% most don't get there. I have had achievements that only 2% of the players obtained and some /gasp 1%. That is how little people play the games they buy. Truly insane.

    We are not even talking about bad games or unpopular ones. I am talking about good games that have good ratings and high sales.
    xanthouscrownScotAlBQuirky
    Garrus Signature
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 24,420
    edited December 19
    cheyane said:
    Not even talking about finishing a game even 20% most don't get there. I have had achievements that only 2% of the players obtained and some /gasp 1%. That is how little people play the games they buy. Truly insane.

    We are not even talking about bad games or unpopular ones. I am talking about good games that have good ratings and high sales.
    Same here I get achievements like that 5% or less finish. But it is worse that that, I played Days Gone, not this year but it comes to mind as I thought it was a great game and popular. It is divided into three sections and you get an achievement for reaching the two new sections. Only about 30% of players made it to the third section, I could not believe it.

    So we are not talking about finishing the game we are just talking about making it to the final third part of the game and 70% had bailed! This must make developers think "why bother"?
    AlBQuirky
  • xanthouscrownxanthouscrown Member UncommonPosts: 39
    edited December 19
    cheyane said:
    Scot said:
    Not sure how relevant this is but I just noticed Steam is telling me the average time gamers spent playing games launched this year was 15% of their playtime. Does that sound normal to you guys?
    It does seem low, but I could see it being normal when taking into account big multiplayer games like counterstrike and dota.

    I just noticed links for my 2022 and 2023 steam replay pages at the bottom of my 2024 page. According to those pages, the percentage of playtime spent by all Steam users in new releases during those years was 17% for 2022 and 9% for 2023. Curiously, Baldur's Gate 3 released in 2023.
    Not even talking about finishing a game even 20% most don't get there. I have had achievements that only 2% of the players obtained and some /gasp 1%. That is how little people play the games they buy. Truly insane.

    We are not even talking about bad games or unpopular ones. I am talking about good games that have good ratings and high sales.
    That reminds of a article I saw. Based on the publicly available steam profiles (which is only 10% of steam users), they calculated that people have purchased $1.9 billion worth of games they've never played. Assuming that same pattern holds for all steam users means that people have purchased $19 billion in games they've never played. https://www.pcgamesn.com/steam/pile-of-shame

    I too have bought a few new games this year that I haven't played yet. Most recently, Fantasian. But I will!... someday...
  • AngrakhanAngrakhan Member EpicPosts: 1,835
    There's no games in my steam library I haven't played at all. I have a few that only have single digit hours played, but those are games that were on deep discount that I paid less than $10 for and decided they weren't my thing but decided to support the developer with the few bucks anyway. Maybe I appreciated the creativity but it just wasn't my type of game. If I flat don't have time for a game I don't pick it up even if it's on deep discount. The sales always come back around.
    SovrathAlBQuirky
  • TheocritusTheocritus Member LegendaryPosts: 10,009
    edited December 19
    Scot said:
    cheyane said:
    Not even talking about finishing a game even 20% most don't get there. I have had achievements that only 2% of the players obtained and some /gasp 1%. That is how little people play the games they buy. Truly insane.

    We are not even talking about bad games or unpopular ones. I am talking about good games that have good ratings and high sales.
    Same here I get achievements like that 5% or less finish. But it is worse that that, I played Days Gone, not this year but it comes to mind as I thought it was a great game and popular. It is divided into three sections and you get an achievement for reaching the two new sections. Only about 30% of players made it to the third section, I could not believe it.

    So we are not talking about finishing the game we are just talking about making it to the final third part of the game and 70% had bailed! This must make developers think "why bother"?

    I am playing a game that has over 100k steam users and I still see accomplishments that I thought were pretty easy and only 1-2% of the players ever even got that far (which wasnt very far at all)....I think many of these games the players dont last very long..
    "
          i know on my tablet alot of the gamers are "Mistplay/Swagbucks", where the players get gift cards to play games....It inflates the player count greatly but they arent really playing....They are there to hit a goal number for Mistplay (like level 30 in 10 days or something like that) and then they are gone on to the next game to do the same thing.
    KyleranScotAlBQuirky
  • ValdemarJValdemarJ Member RarePosts: 1,417
    Neoyoshi said:
    Though I love the sentiment behind Swen's words, it doesn't make any of what happened that night feel any better, much as the past TGA; the BG3 win did not help to offset the grossness and industrialized machine smell of The Game Awards since you can smell the machinery in that place, even through a video feed.

    If you're referring to them winning community support, that only serves to reinforce what a popularity marketing circle jerk TGA is, to me at least.
    Bring back the Naked Chicken Chalupa!
  • NeoyoshiNeoyoshi Member RarePosts: 1,489
    edited December 20
    ValdemarJ said:
    Neoyoshi said:
    Though I love the sentiment behind Swen's words, it doesn't make any of what happened that night feel any better, much as the past TGA; the BG3 win did not help to offset the grossness and industrialized machine smell of The Game Awards since you can smell the machinery in that place, even through a video feed.

    If you're referring to them winning community support, that only serves to reinforce what a popularity marketing circle jerk TGA is, to me at least.

    Oh no no no, sorry, maybe i just worded that wrong;  xD But that is not what i meant, i was referring to what happened in 2023 at TGA, with the whole 'Please wrap it up' shenanigan's that TGA pulled.



    I love video games and BG3 was something I was and still am deeply invested in, but the politics in the video game world is the part I don't like- and sadly TGA is part of it.




    ValdemarJ


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