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Frustration With The Latest MMORPG's Anyone else ?
Hengist
Member RarePosts: 1,316
When I look at the Game List, I notice that most of the new offerings are all in the Fantasy genre. Not that it's a bad thing, but it's not really anything new. It seems that so many games are tied into the same old, same old, and are doing nothing more than competing for the same customers of existing games. There are some noteable exceptions, but what's the deal with 90%+ games being sword and sorcery type ?!?!?!
When I was looking at it, I was thinking why not a game based on gangsters set in 20's or 30's, or a game set in Wild West ? Those games may never achieve the huge subscription numbers that a Lineage or a WoW will achieve, but I'd be pretty surprised if they did not manage to stay right around 100,000 or so players, if it was well done. It would be smaller, and could yet be profitable. It would fill a niche, and god knows there are profitable niches.
It's tough, after having played games like UO, EQ2 and others for years, looking for something new isnt easy. I've played AO ( but I did so at launch, so you can see what I mean ! ) and look forward to Pirates of the Burning Sea, and Roma Victor, just because it's not the same old rehashing of high fantasy.
Anyone else like to see something different ?
Comments
Because people want to fight dragons, demons, have fiery flaming swords and what not. From a fantasy perspective, a developer can basically create any story, monster, weapon that he can imagine. If you are gonig to make game based on western for example, its limited to guns and horses.
However, I would like to see something different than "level up, then grind, level up". EVe Online, UO, and AC were great because they were based on skillz and not how fast you could level up respectively.
I would love to see something new cause mmorpg's these days are set either in a fanstasy type world or a futuristic sci-fi style game. tbh most of the games out now are good but its the same thing one after the other eg:
orcs
orcs
orcs
anyway baikal the wild west one sounded like a pretty good idea.
honage
It basically comes down to two things.
1 - The developers of the fantasy MMORPGs are basing them on games that they have already made that were in a fantasy setting (i.e. World of Warcraft, Hero's Journey), or basing them on a lifelong interest in fantasy themed novels and paper RPGs. (i.e. Everquest) New games are being developed with a fantasy theme because other people that love fantasy want to make their visions a reality, or improve on what is already available.
2 - Publishers and corporations push developers to make fantasy themed MMORPGs because -let's face it - they are a proven money maker. What corporate money-grubber doesn't look at the subscription numbers for WoW and EQ and start drooling on himself at the thought of that much revenue coming in? Why chance making a game in another genre that may or may not be a success?
Agent_X7 AKA J Star
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Notice: The views expressed in this post are solely those of the author and do not necessarily reflect the views of MMORPG.com or its management.
It's all the good vibes that come from fantasy. WoW and EQ and Lineage - huge sellers, huge moneymakers. AO, EVE, SWG, E&B, less so. Plus fantasy is much easier, since the backstory is typically at least partially written for you. An orc in one setting is going to be similar to an orc in another setting. People know what dwarves are.
Fantasy is a bit easier as well in that it at least has some basis in history. Swords, plate armor, crossbows, etc. actually existed in the real world, so we know what they are "supposed" to look like, how they are used, etc. Sci-fi, that is more difficult, as there's no historical basis upon which to go.
Wild West and Gangsters are tough subjects as well. True, there's historical basis for them, but their history doesn't necessarily translate well into games. What would a city look like with 2000 gangsters all competing at the same time for dominance? What would a small town look like with 1000 cattle rustlers and 1000 sheriffs?
I would love for some company to get creative and solve these issues. I would especially love to play a Wild West game. Gangsters could be great fun if done right. Even GTA online could be amusing. Pirates of the Burning Sea has great potential to be a great niche game. Game developers just have to give up on trying to be the next WoW, and design a game for a smaller audience. If they do that, the audience will come.
I think one of the reasons fantasy MMORPGS are more popular than other Genres is that the Fantasy lends itself more to new and fantastic things and its easier and more plausible to do otherwise 'impossible' things.
Take the OP's idea of a gangster style MMO, you have immediately hampered the game with restrictions on what can an can't happen (regarding death's/criminal actions etc.) because these can be related all to easily to real life scenarios and some of the more conservative thinkers would even attribute these 'Realistic' games as causes of modern lifes current woes (This isn't to say the idea is not good, but other people (PC) would twist the games concepts for their own agendas).
Fantasy games are purely that, fantasy it takes a much bigger leap of logic to relate Orcs killing Elves to real life events, even though i'm sure people try.
I for one like to escape the real world and reminders of it when playing a game, it is after all meant to be relaxation
I've tried the likes of AO and Star Wars and they don't cut it for me, even though they are 'fantasy' sort of, so i guess i'm stuck with orcs/dwarves and elves for the forseeable future.
I'm looking forward to trying several of the new upcoming games Dark and Light/Vanguard/DnD Online to name but a few.
One area I would love to see made into a MMORPG is Lovecrafts Cthulu Mythos, however the appeal for a horror related MMO may be limited even though I think I would have great appeal if based around that whole idea.
Apologies for going a little off track
I'm sick of the orc, elves and human thing too actually..
Thank god we still have Ryzom's weird looking mask guys
http://ryzomvault.ign.com/images/Creation/zorai%20male%20example.jpg
scientology
In America I have bad teeth. If I lived in England my teeth would be perfect.
Yes. most of the mmorpgs that are coming out now are fantasy based.
and they must have a reason for that. i have no idea what it is but they should.
and would be really nice to have a good mmorpg that wasnt like all the others out there, like the other guy said, wild west sumthing like that.
I like fantasy based although I would love to see a modern time era mmorpg as well.
yea, I agree. I need something new. I'm sick of fighting bees, jellybeans, bears, orc, goblins and grinding for exp. I'm hoping DDO provides that but from what I read its not going to. Well at least I have BF2....
*edit*
I do like Guild Wars but I cant seem to get a good rhythm in the game with people and Zero of my friends play that game.
Fantasy is OK as long as the races we can choose are beefed up a little. Every monster mob has basically been done. Theres not much left. What hasn't been done is a split from typical bipedal humanoids who all do what typical humanoids do. Wheres our 4-6 legged insect race. SB certainly broke the mold there a bit with Minators and the horse people(can't remember). Too bad it didn't matter=) UXO had a great rodent race that actually moved like you'd think a little rat man would. Also scrapped. Horizons, the original concept was going to break it all wide open with demons, angels, pixies & vampires, but that didn't happen =( So, you can see what happens to the ideas that break the mold. SOR just made weird Humanoids, but not really any better.
Honestly, LOTR will have to do some VERY different things in a MMORPG for me to do the whole Orcs, Elves, Dwarves and Humans crap all over again.
Ermm.. Minotaurs and Centaurs aren't exactly new. I liked some of the monsters in AC like the Olthoi. :P
Because the most successful MMORPGs to date have been fantasy, most publisher's are unwilling to take a risk on other genres. Becuase of this most of the new MMORPGs that come out are fantasy. Which of course means that the majority of sucessfull MMORPGs will happen to be fantasy. Repeat.
I don't want to write this, and you don't want to read it. But now it's too late for both of us.
Im not frustrated at all with the newest MMOG's. Right most of the games out there are fantasy. Is that good or bad? That depends on the person you talk to. The fact is that there other genres of games out there. There is a pirate game being made now and also a few sci-fi games. Im pretty sure if pirates of the burning sea is a big success, in terms of getting 500,000 people or so in subscription numbers, you will see more games going to that pirate theme.
I think the reason alot of games are fantasy is because it is proven to be what people want. Nobody yet seem to have created the "right" pirate or sci-fi mmog yet. Once someone does create something that blows everyone out of the water, you will see alot of clones trying to copy the success. EQ seems to have done that with fantasy genre.
Have played: CoH, DDO EQ2, FFXI, L2, HZ, SoR, and WW2 online
I 100% agree with you. I hate the oversaturation of Tolkienesk games. "Elves, any mmo has to have elves!!!"
When you look at numbers as well, the top mmo player bases also agree.
1. Ragnarok Online (The bulk of players are from asia and in countries where this is the only mmo)
2. MU online (The bulk of these players hail from China)
3. Lineage 2
4. Worlds of Warcraft
When you look at the list of the all time highest population games its easy to notice not many of them are based on a Tolkienesk world. The closest being Lineage 2. So I wish that mmo developers would get a clue and stop basing mmo's on it.
Yes, medival western fantasy themes have gotten very, very stale. I can't say that I would be adverse to a fantasy setting that was based on some other cultural mythology, such as the Hindu or Shinto bestiaries. Something like D&D: Oriental Adventures would be welcome as a breath of fresh air at this point.
Personally, I'd like to see a steampunk MMO. A 19th century setting featuring steam powered computers and clockwork prosthetics with no magic whatsoever. I don't know how well this would be recieved, but it would be a pretty darn awesome nontheless.
As for the 20's ganster game, I think too many of you are selling the concept short. It's basically Cops and Robbers online and that has alot of potential for diversity. Think about all the illegal goings of that era: Rum Running, Moonshining, Running Numbers, Protection Rackets, Labor Rackets, etc. If you could include all of those things and add on the work that went into covering up those activities (intimidation, bribery, slippery book work, and disposing bodies) plus all the police work that went into uncovering all that stuff, then you'd have a really cool game. For an added bonus, you could even have an in game prison that criminals would have to try and break out of after they got caught..... Anyway, I'm sure you get my point.
If you look at any background carefully enough, the play elements kinda shake themselves loose. You can make any concept into a working game. It just boils down to presentation and execution.
I'll admit that I'm partial to fantasy games myself.
And I will further admit that I would have a hard time getting interested in any game that was too....weird. Steampunk? What the hell is that? See, I'm just being honest about my reaction. I'm not really trying to put down the idea. It's just that if I heard of a game based on Steampunk I would be like..."huh?"... and then I'd probably shrug and forget about it.
And I guess that's part of the reason companies are reluctant to go too far out with their MMORPG settings. Because a lot of people would react that way.
Does that mean I'm narrow minded and set in my ways? Maybe, but I'm ok with that.
I don't mind the constant rehashing of the fantasy setting. What annoys me is the lack of creativity in game mechanics. All this endless levels & loot crap is driving me insane. Somewhere along the line game developers forgot about the idea of creating virtual worlds and become obsessed with making linear path character development games where everything else is secondary to your grind to improve your character.
They give us gameplay with a token virtual world backdrop when what I really want is a virtual world with gameplay elements...if that makes any sense.
But anyway, someone was talking about the limitations of historical MMORPGs. They wouldn't necessarily have to be limited to realism. A MMORPG with a western setting wouldn't have to be perfectly realistic any more than Medieval MMORPGs have to be true to life.
You could have Native American shamans/medicine men doing some version of magic and wouldn't that be ok for a MMORPG? It's not realistic, but really who would care? You could have snake oil salesmen selling potions that really work. Again...unrealistc...but so what?
I seem to prefer a fantasy setting but what really matters I guess is the quality of the game. I might even play that steampunk game if it was a really good game. I wouldn't be one of the first people to play it but if it were really good I'd hear about it and check it out. But for me to play it, it would have to be better than the standard crap. If it was just the same old game mechanics in a weird setting there isn't any chance at all that I would bother with it.
There are tons of non-fantasy MMO's out there. Some are even quite good.
Here's the catch:
Most people who play MMORPG's enjoy fantasy because it's easier to 'escape' into fantasy.
Good or Great Sci-Fi MMO's on the market just off the top of my head:
EVE
SWG
AO (yes, it's good now)
Darkspace
E&B - Cancelled due to lack of subscribers
What do all these games have in common, except SWG:
Lack of players despite being fairly good titles
Why?
Because only 15% of MMORPG gamers are attracted to Sci-Fi
Don't believe me? Go look in the poll archives for this site. With over 3000 responants a poll on this site asked a question about what genre people prefer. Fantasy came in #1 with over 70% and Sci fi came in at 15%
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
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Still in: A couple Betas
It's sad really..
It's not even really the setting that bugs me though. It's the friggin leveling, combat style and "realistic" looking character models that turn me off.
Personally I enjoy the realistic looking characters. What turns me off is Anime' graphics. God I hate that crap.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
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Still in: A couple Betas
Here's the thing, everyone mentions the big money makers that are fantasy, but for every 1 of them, if you look at the games list, there are 10 others that either never make it out of testing, or never end up with any kind of market share. Why is that ? I believe it's rehashing pretty much the same sort of thing that is already out there. It's tough to really come up with new ideas, so it's the same ideas mixed with a new and improved interface.
There are Sci-Fi games, and SWG probably had the best chance to crack the top games, with it's name alone, it pretty much failed, and that's on SOE's head. I'm not arguing that there arent other types, but they are so much smaller. Eve is a good example, good game, 100k subscribers, and it's a moderate success, not a WoW, but it fit, BECAUSE it's a niche. That's what I'm talking about.
Someone asked about a Wild West game...make it set in Tombstone, play as a cowboy, an outlaw, a prospecter, a blacksmith, a saloonkeeper. You could take pretty much any of the MMORPG characters or concepts and fit it in here, same thing with a Gangster MMORPG.
The idea I'm talking about isnt something to challenge the top 3 or 4 games in the genre, but rather a game that is a viable commerical success, because of the niche that it appeals to. Dont think that a well done game like I've described would be able to find 100k subscribers a month ? I think it probably would, and now you are talking 1.5 million a month in revenue. Not the top games, but profitable, if it was built with that kind of subscribership in mind.
Dont get me wrong, I've always liked the fantasy settings, but of late, it seems like the kind of all run together, and there really isnt all that much seperating them, it's more and more of the same. Which is why, I feel, that unless you have a "name" games get lost, and never succeed. Something different would be refreshing.
I'd offer simple solutions....for Wild West, if you had the U.S. west of the Mississippi you'd have a lot of small towns, and some big ones. You'd have player run towns, people getting elected sheriff, you'd have train robbers, cattle rustlers, blacksmiths, saloonkeepers, and so on. Sure, some things could get crowded, but I think there would be plenty of professions to appeal to people who'd play as good or bad, and even crafters.
Gangsters, well, same thing, multiple cities, more of a Guild/Gang type of gang. The larger and more powerful the gang, the more influence they can exert. A hierarchy within the gang. People could play as a local policeman, or an FBI agent and try to combat the gangs. Crafting would be difficult, but a bootlegger, or a shopkeeper.
I dont have all the answers, but I just suggested those two, because I thought that they'd have enough interest to appeal to a modertate niche of gamers. Personally, I love the Pirates of the Burning Sea concept of a seperate story, my sister that I'm trying to find might be my neighbors love interest, and so on. New ideas are great....even if they dont work 100%, it's nice to try..
It's not always a proven money maker...unless one of two things happen. You end up on top of the gaming world like WoW did, and they did have a nice budget to make a game. Or, you have a limited budget, but you realize that you wont appeal to everyone, but you feel that the niche you appeal to is unrepresented, and is large enough to support your product.
There are plenty of life long interests, and while as a kid I remember playing D&D, I also remember playing Cop's and Robbers with friends, Cowboys and Indians, and things like that. They keep making Al Capone documentarys, and expose's because someone is watching. Is it a gaming group ? Probably not as a whole, but is it enough to be profitable ?
If I was a venture capitalist, I'd be more likely to put my money behind a smaller company who has something new, and that isnt readily available. I'd be more willing to bet in a new idea capturing some market share, as opposed to someone basically throwing out the same old thing as is already available.
The Democratic Socialist's Theory of MMORPG development
Disclaimer: If you even think about responding with a post about socialism and it's evils then I'll PK you.
The biggest point brought up is that there are too many fantasy MMORPGs competing over too few consumers. As consumers have a larger choice, the distribution of players starts to thin, and this results in a poor gaming experience due to lack of players.
THE SOLUTION:
An MMORPG planning board. Just consider the following:
There are, roughly, three types of gaming experiences in the MMORPG world. These are:
1. Carebear
2. PVP at almost all times.
3. Mixed
Most players play in the "mixed" category. Therefore, at any given time I propose that there should be TWO "insertgenrehere" MMORPGs online in each category. Companies should pool their resources into creating environments that reflect the best opportunities in each genre and category. Consumers, therefore, will have a limited choice and will quickly populate the servers, creating a wonderful game experience for everyone.
Each category and genre MMORPG will have competition with the other game in its category. The games with the most mature community and the greatest features will attract more consumers and thereby prosper. A new MMORPG should be released at set intervals, while others should be retired at set intervals. This creates the maximum amount of competition.
Maybe two per category is too few. Or maybe this whole theory is bull. Hell, I'm not a democratic socialist. Ask a European how it's done.
www.draftgore.com
Gore '08
Wild West would be cool, although there would be spells just guns.