Your thoughts on ToA...

Koltrane

I recently returned to DAoC after trying a bunch of other games.  I was surprised to see the population dynamic so skewed...not so much in regard to the high populations on the classic servers, but to the conversely low population on the regular servers.  I knew ToA was less than popular, but it seems that players are responding with a major backlash. 

The other night, Nimue (my old server) had a total population of < 300 players - this on a weeknight.  It averaged 600+ less than a year ago, and was still a low pop server.  I play on Gareth now and it's like the old days when players were everywhere.

It seems that ToA has been all but neutralized on the older servers.  I mean, it would be a tough task to gather up a master level raid group on a server that has less than 100 players/realm on a given night.  I'm sure people still do pursue the MLs, but it can't be easy, especially on the sparsely populated servers at the bottom of the list.

I'm inclined to think that the player base has spoken about ToA and it is a resounding, "no thank you."  I'm one of the few players who liked Atlantis, but I have to admit I'm having a ton of fun on Gareth playing a Hib champ with no ML/artifact prospects.  Does anyone else think ToA was a big misstep for Mythic?

Also, who thinks Mythic will bring up more classic servers, given their popularity?  I wouldn't be surprised to see some of the low pop servers combined and then retreaded into classics, leaving the ToA-enabled shards as the niche.  It ain't gonna happen tomorrow, but who knows where the game will be in one year?  Who could've predicted such a pointed backlash among otherwise loyal players in the first place?

Zhanghia

From what I learned is that those who did ToA were powerful beyond godly and to compete on them they had to do the ToA quests as well.. but it took 'major' strides to get what you were so bare-bones gameplay just to enjoy RvR you had to do 'a lot' of PvE that was totally unneccessary.

EDIT: And from whta I gathered, I'd have to say a big 'no thank you' to ToA, although I never played it.. if it caused that much problems that thousands of people left; I'll go with the majority in saying that it's bad as well.

EDIT EDIT: and I'm not talking about meager weeks or days but months to gather up everything and executing it.. while most people reviewed it as good, that was in the beginning probably with minor artifacts and idols where they were mostly exploring it and couldn't do a real analysis due to time constraints because you simply cannot do all that much with the grind they offer in a reasonable reviewing time-frame.

Eathan

I left shortly after the advent of ToA. While I enjoyed the content and the quests, the MLs and artifacts skewed the game way beyond what I was able to commit. My schedule precluded lots of long playing sessions, I would get a few a month to enjoy some RvR, but definitely not enough time to reach the now required MLs and obtain and level the needed Artifacts.

I and some friends recently returned to a Classic server and we are loving the game as we once did. As a lark, I logged in as my level 50 Paladin on Guinevere and went to visit the Frontier. I was quite easliy slain by a Kobold Hunter! That used to be impossible as a Paladin with the tools I have to stay alive, but quite obviously the advantages of his MLs and Artifacts was overwhelming. Needless to say, I shall NOT be going back there any time soon.

Koltrane

Maybe not godlike, but certainly far more powerful than those who did not pursue MLs or artifacts.  Both require extensive PvE and MLs require large groups to achieve.  Then you have to get ML experience, which you can only get by running MLs, many of which you have already completed.  This was an attempt to coerce higher master level players into helping lower master levels with ML raids, but it was brutal to have to run ML2 three of four times during the course of your ML experience.  I quit after ML5.  (BTW, Mythic did extensive work on the MLs, and may have changed the ML exp aspect.  I'm not quite sure)

Artifacts were even worse, at least originally.  You had to complete a difficult task just to get the item, but it was worthless until you gathered 3 scrolls which were rare (and I mean RARE!) drops of specific mobs scattered all over Atlantis.  Once you got all items and activated the artifact, you still had to level it, and each artifact required certain mobs to level.  So if you had two artifacts, one might need you to kill bird where the other required you to kill statues.  Basically, you couldn't level them simultaneously.  On top of that, they degraded just like regular weapons and armor, so after a few trips to the smith, they would eventually break and you'd have to do the whole thing all over again.  I know Mythic fixed it where you don't have to fight certain mobs anymore, but you still have to level artifacts.

There were a few hardy souls out there who ground it out to ML10 and full level 10 artifacts, and they were formidable on the battlefield.  It really did skew the RvR experience to the point that is spoiled the game for most players who had already busted their chops to get to 50 and now found themselves at a significant RvR disadvantage.

I think Mythic is trying to minimize the effect of Atlantis on its gameworld, and the classic servers are a good example.  I'd like to see more classic shards.  Just my 2 cp.

Koltrane

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Originally posted by Eathan

I left shortly after the advent of ToA. While I enjoyed the content and the quests, the MLs and artifacts skewed the game way beyond what I was able to commit. My schedule precluded lots of long playing sessions, I would get a few a month to enjoy some RvR, but definitely not enough time to reach the now required MLs and obtain and level the needed Artifacts.
I and some friends recently returned to a Classic server and we are loving the game as we once did. As a lark, I logged in as my level 50 Paladin on Guinevere and went to visit the Frontier. I was quite easliy slain by a Kobold Hunter! That used to be impossible as a Paladin with the tools I have to stay alive, but quite obviously the advantages of his MLs and Artifacts was overwhelming. Needless to say, I shall NOT be going back there any time soon.

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I don't think you're alone, Eathan.  I'm in the same boat.  I am playing on Gareth and having a ball.  There are a lot of players there and the lack of ToA-empowered players is keeping the frontier balance in pretty good check.  I previously played a Warden on Nimue and got to ML5 and obtained at least 3 artifacts, but leveling them was miserable and even at that advanced level, I was still owned on the battlefield by ML10 Mids & Albs.  I imagine those who ground their way to 50 in anticipation of finally being able to compete in RvR were completely put off by scenarios such as you described above.

The classic servers are proving to be the most popular shards.  Like I said above, I'd like to see more of them.  I think they've already brought players back, you & me included.

JulianDracos

Where to begin? 1. ToA is taking the blame for things that are not its fault and 2. A Raid style expansion (ToA or any other) is a mistake for DAOC. And 3. The community changes in DAOC.

Before I begin this way too long post I shall point out some aspects of the Classic servers. There population has declined sharply from its peak. Furhter it populatirity has a lot to being able to start over new with people instead of being in the middle like you are on the older servers. Adding additional classic servers (or any servers) is a mistake. It will either kill off another server unless DAOC has a huge amount of new subscribers. Those on the regular servers either like ToA or do not want to move. I do not want to give up my house, plat, and toons to start over. Making those servers non-ToA will also not work. If you strip players of their artifacts and powers you will have 50% of the subscirbers quit. People put up with Nerfs, they do not take well to removal on such a large scale after days spent getting them. What Mythic needs to do is abandon a Raid style expansion and redo ToA to be able to be done mostly solo with some groups. They need to remove the grind of ToA in terms of scroll farming as well. Do that and I think people will come back.

1. ToA is taking the blame:

The fact is the active population of DAOC had been declining. By active I mean people still had accounts they just played them less or not at all. Just before the summer after the release of SI the total population took a big hit. It actually recovered with the release of ToA. The old players returned and played for awhile but then they just became innactive subscribers. They finally canceled, along with some active players to go to WoW.

So the population issue are not necessarily mistakes with the game - but mistakes at Mythic on how to sustain a game. You need a constant influx of new players. Old players quit or become less active. You need to replace those and Mythic did not take the necessary steps to do so. For example they waited too long to offer a free trail, the free trial until recently had outdated graphics, they failed, and still fail, to address certain boring aspects of the game - crafting for example. Mythic did not advertise that much on the web. Insofar as I know they have never reached out of the genre to really bring in new players too it. Essentially Mythic saw the money coming in and did nothing about the active population of the game. Either they did not see the coming problem or did not know of a way to fix it.

The overpowering the people see is not from ToA, but from realm abilities. However, people were blaming ToA. Archers can now get an ability called Mastery of Stealth. This allows them to see assassin classes. In order for assassins to see archers before the archer sees the assassin, the assassin must now spend a huge amount of realm points to get higher in MoS. However, even being higher in MoS doesn't help. As an assassin you will need to drop stealth and sprint toward the archer and hope that you can get him into melee before you die. Archers are now training so high in MoS and maxing their bow out that an archer can shoot and kill most assassins while the assassin is in stealth. A high realm rank archer can hit a target every time for max damage -1053 from safety!

Mythic changed the front. The new frontier is more about distance so the tanks that were having a lot of fun now are not having a good time. It became about casters and archers. The fact is almsot everytime I die it has more to do with realm abilites at play than any ML ability or artifact.

2. Raid style exanpsions are flawed.

The story goes that DAOC players wanted more to do after reaching level 50. This was at a time when you really dreaded having to level another toon to 50 because it was so slow. Here is the problem with this genre - it is copying EQ - a game that the first core players of DAOC fled from!

DAOC was supposed to be about player crafting. Player crafted armor and weapons were supposed to be the best. At level 50 you are supposed to go do RvR. Well a lot of players at that time only wanted PvE. Or at least wanted more PvE content at level 50. In order to give people a reason to do it they made the items and benefits powerful. Consequently they made getting those items and benefits very dificult.

Now here is where the problems of a Raid expansion in DAOC come in. A Raid is a long and dificult process. It automatically means that those who play on off peak times or who are more casual players will be lagging behind if nto impossible to do the Raids. There is someone in my guild that has THREE accounts and a huge amount of 50's. Given his work schedule he missess almost every raid!

Second probelm with a raid style expansion: Raids are repetitive! That's right you do the same thing over and over, what fun is that? I mean I love DAOC but I hate repetitivness. Leveling used to be much more dificult than it is now. I hated sitting in one spot killing for days to make ONE level. Now if I want to do anything with this expansion I need huge groups of people and basically do the same thing. Even if you enjoy it once or twice, most people have more than 1 or 2 level 50's. So you end up going through it multiple times and it is just so boring.

In terms of leveling in DAOC I can kill, do tasks, do quests, or kill other players. In ToA it is the same thing. For those that have not been on a ML raid here is what it is. You show up at one spot. Everyone gets into groups and there are usually 40-140 players there. You then /stick to one person and you move out as a swarm. You get to a spot and then you kill something. Most of the time it is really only a few classes that can do anything. Then you /stick again and move to another spot. Hours later all of the killing is done and the loot is divided up. Spending 2-5 hours of my life just following around is not fun. However, that is not just ToA that is every Raid expansion I have seen. It takes a huge amount of people and you end up spending hours killing mobs to get some Uberloot or ability.

If the expansion is based on Raids, then there are going to be more than 1. In ToA case that is 10. So 10 times you need to do this just for ONE TOON!

I really do not care about the abilities or items in ToA. The expansion is based off of raids and for me that is boring. A lot of old EQers found it boring and annoying. Of course this wouldn't have been such an issue if everyone felt that way. But ToA (or and Raid expansion) brought forth something aparanent in the community - the 'harcore' versus the 'casual.'

3. The community:

Those 'hardcore' players in DAOC hated the expansion because it meant taking a break from RvR. But at the same time embraced it for its power. They would spend days getting everyone from ToA. Those who did not or could not were left behind. This is why ToA gets the blame from 'ruining the game' and making thing so 'overpowered.' Before ToA people would compalin either about class balance or realm abilities as the problem. The reason they died is X class is too strong, Albion is too strong/too many players, or this class has better realm abilities. ToA being new and seeing that it does have an impact on RvR this is what people focused on. So those that did not or could not do ToA now blamed ToA for being over powered.

Don't get me wrong ToA has an effect. They have fonts to regen power, health, or endurance. Casters at high ML get extrmely powerful abilities. Either a giant pet, or brittle guards. The brittle guards absorb hits for the caster and insofar as I can tell are 100% effective. Archers can't kill them easily anymore, but neither can assassins or tanks. Some artifacts give too much in terms of abilities such as combat speed, casting speed, or powerpool. While giving advantages, most of these can be mitigated. However in combination with Buff Bots, and high Realm Abiliies the combination of those is extremely dificult to get around - unless your side has the same.

But back to the community. I am about to get an "Elder" title from DAOC for playing it sense release. Yet the other day on me first toon - a caster with around 60 days played in game (not as much as other's in the game, but I have a lot of other toons) I get called a 'noob.' The reason why is a person who has only played tanks can't hold the agro. Further he stops attacking in the middle of combat and does other things. He does many mistakes. However this person is highly billegerant towards me and others. Yet none of us feel the need to insult him.

I go out to Thid (level 20-24 Battleground) a lot. Someone was playing their first nightshade (assassin) and admits he has no idea what he is doing. I have 2 of them and I leveled them through the battlegrounds. I am not the best NS, but I know what I am doing. He says something and I correct him. He says he tested it in Thid so I can show my NS up my ass.

This is just a recent example of the community. Both of these players (and most others) come from servers that are not mine (clustering and all). I still believe that as a whole DAOC is the best community, but there are more jerks in the game and you run into them more often than pre-ToA. I think my home server/realm is simply the best in the game because since the begining I think I have run into less jerks on that server than the number of fingres I have. Other servers run into dozens after a few hours of playing (that is why I do not play there).

Anyway to my point. Everyone who has a level 50 and plays a lot thinks they know everything. Those people are so obsessed with wanting to win and feel they are the best they ar picky about their groups and the specs in their groups. They do not take advice and are jerks to most players - old and new alike. DAOC has this nice function where you can put yourself as an advisor. People then ask that player questions if they need help. I have never seen anyone on as an advisor since pre-ToA.

Groups used to be easy, now people only play with their Buffbot, friends, or guildies. The 'casual' player feels allienated from all of this. They may not have RL friends to play with. They might not be in a large guild. They might not want to pay for a second account.

So if ToA has an impact it is making it aparent who the uber 'Leet' players are who feel not only in competition with other realms but with every player in the game and will stomp on those they feel are beneath them.

In the end ToA or not ToA I believe DAOC would be about in the same place now. Any Raid expansion would put the game in the same place. No Raid style expansion would have helped, but the population and underlying problems/complaints would still be here. If they are to fix the problem and keep people from going to DnL or other new games coming out then there is a stiff climb. They new expansion is a step in the right direction, but they need to bring in a substantial population to the game. Further they need to provide real incentive for helping other players and helping new players. Without that then the community will get worse and more people will leave the game.