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What´s your opinion about PvP in mmorpgs?
The_Elder
Member Posts: 2
Well, I started this topic because I would express my opinion and know what other ppl thinks.I don´t like PvP combat because,when I play, I want to have some fun, and for me, it´s not funny when you start a game and two minutes later you get PKed without any reason.I don´t see any reason to end with other ppls diversion.I have played a few games, and I don´t know how is exactly the PvP system in some of the great mmorpgs.I just don´t like games like Conquer Online,that have a really annoyng PvP system,where you get killed without any reason since your first steps in the game.My opinion is that,for some ppl,a game can be good without need of a PvP system,but,if its well managed and done,it can add some fun for the gameplay.Thats my opinion...now,what do you think?Whats your position about it?
Comments
Just add a map where you can pvp and make the rest safe zones so you'll have only the pvp fans in those maps.
scientology
mmorpg i play need to have evil players instead having everyone forced to be good guys.
Player levels and pvp just don't go together.
And you should know what type of game you're getting into before you actually start playing and get upset about the rules.
That's my take.
Personally I like MMO PvP, but only when it's done right with at least a fair chance of survival for both parties.
I gotta agree with everybody else here. PvP in an MMORPG is pointless unless the game system is built around PvP play. Otherwise it's just a bunch of punks trying to boost their character into a walking weapons platform that can't be beaten. Having said that however, I think we need other MMO genres. More MMOFPS and MMO-fighting games. We need games where all the "hardcore" PvP players can do their thing AND have to develope some skills. I'm thinking that an MMO with the twitch combat from Mount & Blade would be cool. Auto Assault looks like it's going to be a pretty cool PvP experience also.
BTW, There are plenty of examples of MMO PvP games. WW2 Online, Planetside, Jumpgate, Shadowbane, Conquer Online, Time of Defiance, Eve Online, etc. Not only are there plenty of PvP games, but there's more diversity of game styles in the MMO PvP games. Now if they would make a Tribes: Online or a Mechwarrior: Online, I would be right there.
Having played UO back in the day, Shadowbane, SWG, and dabbled a bit in EQ as well as testing some other games I say completely unrestricted pvp is a death nail for a game. Although developers need to design a game with pvp in mind from the beginning for the classes/levels/powers/races you can take your pick; end up borked up beyond any semblance of balance and the crying begins and the dread nurf bat appears.
I am a fan of the DAoC system in a theoretical state. With pve safe zones and excelating danger as you move away from those zones culminating in pure unrestricted pvp zones. However as proven in SWG you just cant say "here is your pit no go kill each other and leave everyone else alone". To alot of pvp'ers (myself included) its esential to balance risk v reward (players are harder to kill than AI so the games rewards should reflect that) and finaly there must be a reason. There has to be some sort of in context reason to fight. Shadowbane also provided an excellent example of player invested pvp. The player owned cities that could be destroyed in the game gave players a stake in the pvp which insured the opposition always brought there A game for lack of a better term. Its ackowledging the simple truth that poker plays differently when its dollars on the table not peanuts. So giving players something to fight over that they are invested in is essential also.
So I guess a realm based combat system with factions and controlable objectives that lead to real rewards would be the best base for a pve and pvp game. There would be non pvp zones where players quest and do your basic non pvp activities. This would also keep alot of the griefer types away because they know that everyone in the pvp zone is there looking for a fight or expecting one and no easy kills over someone 40 levels there junior. I think that would improve alot of peoples perception of pvp if you could eliminate lowbie griefing.
All quotes by Azash_AT
Seconded. There needs to be a kind of safe Zone to learn the game.
EVE has a similar structure (though it goes a bit further in that regard that you can be theoretically attacked anywhere and that you are protected by npcs), and it works quite well.
Yet, in this regard most games fail. The problem is that a lot of other things need to be in place for a player driven PvP to work. Again EVE has one (if not the) best environment for such a thing to work, yet there is still much room for improvement. The RvR of DAoC also sounds interesting, yet I can't say how much of a permanent change you can make there in PvP (Is it similar to WoW Battlegrounds only not instanced?). The example you made about Shadowbane (players owning cities) seems to be a nice feature too though. All in all I think a mixture of NPC driven PvP (like two opposing realms going to war and players being able to hire as mercs with rewards for the winning side) and player driven PvP (claiming/raiding regions made available by the devs) would work best. Would also work on a smaller scale.
Actually it depends on a lot of things if players are harder to kill than NPC. Under normal circumstances, yes, killing a Level 30 Player with your level 30 character is usually harder than to kill a level 30 monster, but the problem is that if level differences are there, they are often ignored by a game system. Possible solutions would be either to have a system without levels, where a given weapon is equally dangerous to an an unarmoured new player and veteran alike, or, if level based, then dish out a penalty for killing a weaker character (maybe also counting in the number of players on each side).
Seems like we are quite the same opinion here (look above). It needs to be thought trough again a few times, but I think the direction is ok. One thing is very important imo though for a more complex game with PvP included to work - PvPlers and non-PvPlers need to be on one server, so that combat *and* economy works well.
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Originally posted by Mandolin
Designers need to move away from the old D&D level-based model which was never designed for player vs player combat in the first place.
I like stuctured pvp like team pvp.
First of all, I think you need to see the PvP aspect of a game wider then just the combat systems. It's all player interaction. PvP is what makes the genre of MMO games so popular. Anyone can, with a given time learn how to defeat an npc or learn how to work with one. Humans on the other hand have unpredictable reactions, creating unique content every day.
PvP combat can be fun. In an MMORPG under current conditions I don't think it is. It's mostly a number based combat (HP+MP+DEX+STR+...+Equipment modifiers) with a small part of skill involved, depending on your connection speed and general agility with the keyboard/mouse. Ofcourse there is a need for villains for whom this type of combat is necessary but it doesn't need to be "open" it can be restricted to certain areas or made impossible through gameplay (npc guards defense example is nice) in some.
PvP interaction is what makes the game. This part includes Economy (who's getting richer), Land control (very little games have), Politics (who leads guilds etc.), Socializing (reputation in community) and so on. All the previous are to me the good aspects of rpg dynamics. Some are abusable but in the end, when you play an rpg type of game with others, in this case a massive community usually emulating the life of a small town to a small city (200 up to +/- 1k simultaneous players on server - up to +/- 25k simultaneous players on server), it's the emulation of a dreamlife that makes it fun.
My first feeling with the introduction to the genre was : "wow... a graphical chatroom". Evolving from there on discovering what you can do with the roleplaying element and general gameplay features it has always been a dream thanks to PvP interaction and from time to time PvP combat.
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I think open pvp plain ruin the game experience. There will always be griefers and they dont go away unless you control pvp. If more games were to offer a switch in the game to turn on or off pvp, so that players could choose when they like to join a siege or something.
Theres no doubt open pvp is a dying trend among MMOGs. If games do have it, they wont be successful in getting a large player base. Since alot of people wont go into a game that is open pvp because they know what will happen.
Have played: CoH, DDO EQ2, FFXI, L2, HZ, SoR, and WW2 online
Structured PvP is really the only way to go. Open PvP is just a home for griefers. Without some sort of structure or goal there is really no real point to it. Clearly defined goals/odjectives and rewards does the best. DAoC provides a great model of how you can do this. PvP impacts the entire realm with the effects of the gain or loss of a relic or the dungeon Darkness falls. WoW and Guild Wars have a shooter style set up with capture the flag maps with clear rewards. Looking at open PvP, like AC - Darktide server for example, there is nothing really to it besides grinding out a level so you can defeat or grief everyone else. It suits some taste I guess.
My honest opinion is, MMORPGs are not very good at PvP altogether. To much is based on the math of a character (in levels/stats and items) and not in skill of the player. Without the skill of the player being a primary factor all you end up with is people all capping out and trying to get the same "uber" item so they can "pawn or own" rather then rely on skill
If a high-level player kills a low-level player outside the context of a declared war, he will get a SXP penalty and a bad faction value. When he has reached a determined level in faction value, he turns to a wanted criminal, and players from the opposite faction can chase him and get a reward, FXP and/or SXP. http://www.darkandlight.net/faq.php3
These developers are living a dream, just by reading this on their FAQ on the website. This game will attact griefers and they wont give a shit about faction. Griefers will kill anyone especially low level players anywhere in the game.
I know that DnL have been development for five years. This game will suffer just because of the griefers in the game. Putting a harsher penalty for killing low level players isnt going to solve anything, griefers will still kill. The only solution is for players to turn off pvp so they would be safe killing monsters or doing quests besides sieging a castle or town.
Have played: CoH, DDO EQ2, FFXI, L2, HZ, SoR, and WW2 online
Generally I agree with you. This system could especially backfire if people use it to kill a lot of low level players getting a higher bounty and then killing his own character with the help of a m8. Then they split the bounty. So actually griefing would be even rewarded. Correct me if I am wrong, its at last what I conclude form the available information. Bounties and faction hits will never prevent low level character killing, as the people who do such a thing actually like the fact they are "outlawed" and wanted.
Other disadvantages have to come with killing low level characters, not just the possibility to get hunted, or to get a bounty on the head.
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Originally posted by Mandolin
Designers need to move away from the old D&D level-based model which was never designed for player vs player combat in the first place.
well, i think for any game, pvp is a fundamental rule. and violence is inevitable in our society.
relating both, there is not fun without killing, and in an mmo, where youre not actually killing a living being, its even more fun and vital than it is in the real world (not that its fun killin irl).
ok, say you got scammed, and you would like to make it even, how could u do that if ur low lvl and the game is not pvp? this is just one of the advantages of pvp games.
sumthing to think about. if violence is almost a rule in the real world, to make a mmo seem more real, nothing better than adding a good pvp system.