In general, players view all their subsequent virtual worlds in the light cast from their first one. They will demand that features from their first world be added to their current world, even if those very features were partly responsible for why they left the first world. They'll say they hate treadmills, but if their first experience was in a virtual world with treadmills, then they'll gravitate towards other virtual worlds with treadmills, all the while still hating them.
omg that is so true lol...... when i finally quit eq for wow i remember thinking to myself "im so glad i dont have to deal with that frustration of a full time job that is eq anymore" but now i miss it.....i miss the feeling it gave me.....ya it sucked at times but it was the game you loved to hate hehe...
Originally posted by moonfog The only "good" thing WoW is doing is THREE things: 1. Keeping the kids out of my MMO. 2. Pulling alot of new customers to the mmo community. 3. Weeding out the mature customers; they realise how crap it is and join my MMO. So thanks Blizzard
Amen. People kept saying a bunch of kids play Shadowbane, but my 50+ person guild has 0 people in it under the age of 20. The one kid got booted and has been banished from about 5 guilds allready.. Poor morder, he should play WoW..
Originally posted by Waffleton Originally posted by disstress I like killing lots of monsters and I like killing lots of player characters. If I wanted to play lots of sports or play a game that simulated real life I would get Madden or the Sims.Killing monsters and leveling up isn't a clone of Everquest, its a clone of a freaking RPG. I don't understand why people want to watch the avatar take a crap or check the mail.
I've played plenty of RPGs that are a hundred times more captivating than WoW. WoW isn't so much an RPG as it is a "button clicking simulator". The extent of combat is literally clicking buttons in sequence, over and over again until level 60. Not to say this isn't like most RPGs, RPGs tend to focus more on character development than pure action. Unfortunately with WoW, there isn't any room for character developement; the entire game revolves around collecting lewtz and killing monsters in an endless grind cycle. There's pretty much nothing else do to (except PvP, which is pretty pointless at this point in the game).
Part of what makes the MMORPG great is its potential for entire online communities to form. The best parts of playing an MMO is interacting with your fellow players, and using the virtual world around you to accomplish wonderful things. In WoW, it's all there for you already, all you have to do is grind through it. If I wanted to play a button clicking simulator, I'd go and play with my freaking microwave.
If WoW's content can keep you interested for more than a week, you've got to be a real trooper.
From my experience with WoW, most of the content is pretty much blocked off unless you can devote 6 to 8 hours a day to playing. Leveling, especially at higher levels, can be painfully repetitive and slow, and organizing a guild for a raid encounter can take hours (not to mention the several hours spent going through the instance!). Casual players seem to be the ones that work their way up to level 40, have trouble scrounging up the required gold for a mount, and eventually become painfully frustrated with their lack of progress and quit before they reach level 60. These players simply don't have the time or the means to dedicate themselves to interacting with their guild, grinding for gear, and running through instances. I found it nearly impossible to get involved with any aspect of the game; I desired to play casually and got nowhere. I eventually quit in disgust before I was even able to experience the high end content, which most of the gameplay resides.
Basically, there is no such thing as WoW in moderation. Most people get sucked in and play for hours and hours at a time, and those that don't are wasting their money.
First off WoW has content that hasn't even been completed yet.(unless someone finally beat nefarion) They have an upcoming expansion that raises the max level and adds loads of new raid content. And developing your character how? With a skill based system or roleplaying? WoW has a talent system that allows you to customize your characters abilities, before you say that there is only one path to be the best or whatever, all skill based systems have the same thing, there is that one uber template per "class." You cannot complete the content in WoW in a week, I don't care who you are.
But alas, this post isn't about the points of wow gameplay. People like different games. I personally won't play a game that doesn't offer WASD support, since Lineage2 burnt me out on point and clip crap.
per·sis·tent adj.
Insistently repetitive or continuous Existing or remaining in the same state for an indefinitely long time; enduring
A MMORPG is a persistent world. What you are looking for is something else.
And BTW I don't play WoW anymore, I don't like raiding.
"WoW is the Best Thing to Happen to the MMO Business/Community"
In a sarcastic way,you got that right,it keep the bnet crowd and most of the immature/imbeciles mmo players away from the other good mmorpg's and this is a very good thing,i thank blizzard for that.
Originally posted by karlos "WoW is the Best Thing to Happen to the MMO Business/Community" In a sarcastic way,you got that right,it keep the bnet crowd and most of the immature/imbeciles mmo players away from the other good mmorpg's and this is a very good thing,i thank blizzard for that.
That is a good point. Blizzard got whiners to stick with WoW. I was always tired of those people who'd complain about a game and its mechanics, but still play it because they have nothing else better (in their minds) to play.
GRIND sucks? You wanna be max level in a month? Since when did society award easy-goers and lazy-fools? MAKES ME PHOBIC OF STUPIDITY!
Originally posted by disstress per·sis·tent adj. Insistently repetitive or continuous Existing or remaining in the same state for an indefinitely long time; enduring A MMORPG is a persistent world. What you are looking for is something else. And BTW I don't play WoW anymore, I don't like raiding.
Understand what you say...
You are actually incorrect. MMORPG != Persistent.
For Instance, EVE(The most massively multiplayer game out there), Shadowbane, To an Extent SWG. They are DYNAMIC. Their world changes depending on human interaction and control.
I'm gonna have to disagree with this. Mmo players who started with WoW are starting to show up in every game i play and all they do is piss and moan. "this is too hard" or "this takes too long". They're used to having everything handed to them. I can usually spot a WoW player before they even admit that WoW was their first mmo. I played WoW for three months and i actually kind of enjoyed the game. The soloing aspect was refreshing after so many party based mmos; but unlike most people i left because of the selfish, childish, rude, greedy community rather than the lack of end game content. Fortunately i had been playing mmos for years before WoW came out so finding a new game wasn't a problem.
There seems to be two types of mmorpgamers now: Those who started with WoW, and those who started with anything else. In Eve i sometimes join the beginners channel to help out and there seems to be a nonstop flow of WoW burnouts bashing everything in the game that's not like WoW. I kinda feel sorry for these people because i know they're just gonna go from game to game expecting something as easy and dumbed down as WoW and they're not gonna find it.
Originally posted by fisherc Originally posted by disstress per·sis·tentadj. Insistently repetitive or continuousExisting or remaining in the same state for an indefinitely long time; enduring A MMORPG is a persistent world. What you are looking for is something else. And BTW I don't play WoW anymore, I don't like raiding. Understand what you say... You are actually incorrect. MMORPG != Persistent. For Instance, EVE(The most massively multiplayer game out there), Shadowbane, To an Extent SWG. They are DYNAMIC. Their world changes depending on human interaction and control.
Actually I'm right. lol
MMORPGs follow a client-server model. Players, running the client software, are represented in the game world by an avatar a graphical representation of the character they play. Providers (usually the game's publisher), host the persistent worlds these players inhabit. This interaction between a virtual world, always available for play, and an ever-changing, world-wide stream of players characterizes the Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game.
Originally posted by disstress per·sis·tentadj. Insistently repetitive or continuousExisting or remaining in the same state for an indefinitely long time; enduring A MMORPG is a persistent world. What you are looking for is something else. And BTW I don't play WoW anymore, I don't like raiding.
Understand what you say... You are actually incorrect. MMORPG != Persistent. For Instance, EVE(The most massively multiplayer game out there), Shadowbane, To an Extent SWG. They are DYNAMIC. Their world changes depending on human interaction and control.
Actually I'm right. lol
MMORPGs follow a client-server model. Players, running the client software, are represented in the game world by an avatar a graphical representation of the character they play. Providers (usually the game's publisher), host the persistent worlds these players inhabit. This interaction between a virtual world, always available for play, and an ever-changing, world-wide stream of players characterizes the Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game.
You really don't want to start this with me BTW, just a fair notice.
Oh please, come down off your high horse and lets see how tall your really are 'Napolean'. You used wikipedia as a source, not a good way to prove yourself. You are speaking french in an enlish debate using examples in hebrew.
You just bought into the marketting ploy of someone who wrote that entry for Wikipedia. Probably someone who works for WoW or EQII who advertise their games as persistent worlds. Wikipedia is NOT A SOURCE OF RELIABLE information.
Persistent: 1) Refusing to give up or let go; persevering obstinately 2) Insistently repetitive or continuous: a persistent ringing of the telephone. 3) Existing or remaining in the same state for an indefinitely long time; enduring: persistent rumors; a persistent infection.
A Persistent World: A WORLD THAT NEVER CHANGES UNLESS IT'S HARDCODING IS CHANGED(You have to make it a new game to change it), examples. WoW, EQII, Asheron's Call, EQI, Knight Online, etc. etc.
A Dynamic World: A WORLD THAT CHANGES ON IT'S OWN FROM PLAYER INTERACTION, WITHOUT THE NEED FOR HARDCODE CHANGES, EXAMPLES: Shadowbane, EVE Online, SWG.
Hell... Here you go. I'll use an example that's more reliable than yours.
AMAZON.com
"Shadowbane is the first such product to embrace a dynamic world design model, in which players can physically affect the history, politics," ...
Go back upstairs and try taking your anger out on a punching bag or something... When people get emotionally enflamed and then get all high and mighty when they are actually wrong... it makes me feel sorry for them. Work out the pain before making yourself look like a fool. That's my advice to you as a friend.
let me just jump in here and throw a few of my opinions in here...
the label persistent world in a mmorpg (imo) is a world that allways exsists, even if you are not online that game world will still be there. it does not mean it will allways be the same and never change.....it just means the game world will allways exsist 24 hours a day 7 days a week.
now using the word dynamic in a mmorpg is no different than using it in a single player offline game. a world can be a dynamic non persistent world just as a world can be a dynamic mmorpg. and yes i have seen all sorts of single player games being described as dynamic.
btw all mmorpg's change during online play (just like the warning label on every mmorpg) maybe some change or are updated more than others but they all change or get content added at some point.
Originally posted by angerr let me just jump in here and throw a few of my opinions in here... the label persistent world in a mmorpg (imo) is a world that allways exsists, even if you are not online that game world will still be there. it does not mean it will allways be the same and never change.....it just means the game world will allways exsist 24 hours a day 7 days a week. now using the word dynamic in a mmorpg is no different than using it in a single player offline game. a world can be a dynamic non persistent world just as a world can be a dynamic mmorpg. and yes i have seen all sorts of single player games being described as dynamic. btw all mmorpg's change during online play (just like the warning label on every mmorpg) maybe some change or are updated more than others but they all change or get content added at some point.
All MMO'S DON'T change though. WoW has to be re-coded to be changed. Shadowbane does not, it changes through player interaction. Players change the face of the world building castles and cities etc.
Originally posted by fisherc You just bought into the marketting ploy of someone who wrote that entry for Wikipedia. Probably someone who works for WoW or EQII who advertise their games as persistent worlds. Wikipedia is NOT A SOURCE OF RELIABLE information. Hell... Here you go. I'll use an example that's more reliable than yours. AMAZON.com "Shadowbane is the first such product to embrace a dynamic world design model, in which players can physically affect the history, politics," ...
Oh fisher fisher...you're calling a wiki unreliable and then you proceed to quote a MARKETING statement from a SALES website...
Originally posted by hadz Originally posted by fisherc You just bought into the marketting ploy of someone who wrote that entry for Wikipedia. Probably someone who works for WoW or EQII who advertise their games as persistent worlds. Wikipedia is NOT A SOURCE OF RELIABLE information. Hell... Here you go. I'll use an example that's more reliable than yours. AMAZON.com "Shadowbane is the first such product to embrace a dynamic worlddesign model, in which players can physically affect the history, politics," ... Oh fisher fisher...you're calling a wiki unreliable and then you proceed to quote a MARKETING statement from a SALES website... How to lose an argument in one easy step...hehe. Anyway...have at it... hadz
Hadz, thank you there you summed it up for me.
Oh yeah, if you want to talk about what is coded as opposed to what isn't that magically makes the world "change" , you are on crack.
These changes in Shadowbane are coded in, I don't know why you think they aren't. Just like someone can put up a harvester or house in SWG. It makes no difference either way, the world is still persistant, and some elements are can change, kinda like your friend could be 10 when you log off and 15 when you log back in. Not a strong statement.
Back to the roots of the MMORPG, they have been described by the developers,publishers,and distributers as a persistant world. The wiki is correct on its explanation, I'm sorry that you feel that a marketing statement is more reliable than that particular wiki page, but what you had put in there really has nothing to do with what we are talking about.
Just because someone says "wow, that EQ sure is dynamic" does not mean that the world is not a persistant world. Go study a dictonary, then learn about the history of MMORPGS, log 1/3 of the time I have on 1/2 of the games I've played, then come talk to me about something. Because right now, you are clueless.
Originally posted by fisherc You just bought into the marketting ploy of someone who wrote that entry for Wikipedia. Probably someone who works for WoW or EQII who advertise their games as persistent worlds. Wikipedia is NOT A SOURCE OF RELIABLE information. Hell... Here you go. I'll use an example that's more reliable than yours. AMAZON.com "Shadowbane is the first such product to embrace a dynamic world design model, in which players can physically affect the history, politics," ...
Oh fisher fisher...you're calling a wiki unreliable and then you proceed to quote a MARKETING statement from a SALES website...
How to lose an argument in one easy step...hehe.
Anyway...have at it...
hadz
Apparently my wit was lost on you. :P read it again, maybe you'll understand why I used it.
Originally posted by fisherc You just bought into the marketting ploy of someone who wrote that entry for Wikipedia. Probably someone who works for WoW or EQII who advertise their games as persistent worlds. Wikipedia is NOT A SOURCE OF RELIABLE information. Hell... Here you go. I'll use an example that's more reliable than yours. AMAZON.com "Shadowbane is the first such product to embrace a dynamic worlddesign model, in which players can physically affect the history, politics," ...
Oh fisher fisher...you're calling a wiki unreliable and then you proceed to quote a MARKETING statement from a SALES website... How to lose an argument in one easy step...hehe. Anyway...have at it... hadz
Hadz, thank you there you summed it up for me.
Oh yeah, if you want to talk about what is coded as opposed to what isn't that magically makes the world "change" , you are on crack.
These changes in Shadowbane are coded in, I don't know why you think they aren't. Just like someone can put up a harvester or house in SWG. It makes no difference either way, the world is still persistant, and some elements are can change, kinda like your friend could be 10 when you log off and 15 when you log back in. Not a strong statement.
Back to the roots of the MMORPG, they have been described by the developers,publishers,and distributers as a persistant world. The wiki is correct on its explanation, I'm sorry that you feel that a marketing statement is more reliable than that particular wiki page, but what you had put in there really has nothing to do with what we are talking about.
Just because someone says "wow, that EQ sure is dynamic" does not mean that the world is not a persistant world. Go study a dictonary, then learn about the history of MMORPGS, log 1/3 of the time I have on 1/2 of the games I've played, then come talk to me about something. Because right now, you are clueless.
Apparently you aren't a computer programmer Distress, you dont' understand the difference between Hardcoded change in Content (For example, A patch) and a game which content changes without a Patch (IE Players building Cities to change the game while the server is still running)
It's not I that needs to study a dictionary, it's yourself. Look up persistent and world. Put them together. That's how objective meaning in English works. If you were actually following it, I would have been right in your mind all along.
I'm not the one who needs to study a dictionary...
I know you think you are some great internet flamer/debater, your first post states that quite clearly. It's ok to have an ego, but having an ego will never make you win at life.
If you find another source other than wikipedia that's reliable that backs up your statement and several others. Then you might have a foundation for argument but right now you have nothing.
Originally posted by fisherc You just bought into the marketting ploy of someone who wrote that entry for Wikipedia. Probably someone who works for WoW or EQII who advertise their games as persistent worlds. Wikipedia is NOT A SOURCE OF RELIABLE information. Hell... Here you go. I'll use an example that's more reliable than yours. AMAZON.com "Shadowbane is the first such product to embrace a dynamic worlddesign model, in which players can physically affect the history, politics," ...
Oh fisher fisher...you're calling a wiki unreliable and then you proceed to quote a MARKETING statement from a SALES website... How to lose an argument in one easy step...hehe. Anyway...have at it... hadz
Hadz, thank you there you summed it up for me.
Oh yeah, if you want to talk about what is coded as opposed to what isn't that magically makes the world "change" , you are on crack.
These changes in Shadowbane are coded in, I don't know why you think they aren't. Just like someone can put up a harvester or house in SWG. It makes no difference either way, the world is still persistant, and some elements are can change, kinda like your friend could be 10 when you log off and 15 when you log back in. Not a strong statement.
Back to the roots of the MMORPG, they have been described by the developers,publishers,and distributers as a persistant world. The wiki is correct on its explanation, I'm sorry that you feel that a marketing statement is more reliable than that particular wiki page, but what you had put in there really has nothing to do with what we are talking about.
Just because someone says "wow, that EQ sure is dynamic" does not mean that the world is not a persistant world. Go study a dictonary, then learn about the history of MMORPGS, log 1/3 of the time I have on 1/2 of the games I've played, then come talk to me about something. Because right now, you are clueless.
Apparently you aren't a computer programmer Distress, you dont' understand the difference between Hardcoded change in Content (For example, A patch) and a game which content changes without a Patch (IE Players building Cities to change the game while the server is still running) It's like Html vs Php, Jsp etc. You have to physically change Html. But Php can update itself dynamically depnding on what you want it to do.
It's not I that needs to study a dictionary, it's yourself. Look up persistent and world. Put them together. That's how objective meaning in English works. If you were actually following it, I would have been right in your mind all along.
I know you think you are some great internet flamer/debater, your first post states that quite clearly. It's ok to have an ego, but having an ego will never make you win at life.
If you find another source other than wikipedia that's reliable that backs up your statement and several others. Then you might have a foundation for argument but right now you have nothing.
I've already pointed out the direct meaning of both of them and you ignore it. I can't explain it more clearly than that. So you are just trying to be an ass I presume.
To sum it all up...WoW did bring a sense of success into the MMO community.
I will admit there are alot of newcomers into the genre thanks to WoW.
But usually casual gamers, and most of them seem to whine alot about the lvling aspects in other games. Either cause it's too long or too hard for them
I for one, played WoW 3 months. And I'm done with. The game has great concepts and it is in overall a well made game.
But as a gamer who started back from the early days of Atari-like UO on the Mac, I'm a traditional MUG player and WoW, well it doesn't fit the taste of gamers like me. Let's just put it "too rewarding in my taste".
I hate L2's grind or FFXIs combat system+party required play...But I'd much prefer something like L2.
The drama in the game. So much hate, anger, and animosity( same for UO)...the politics involved...and of course the harsh grind I prefer, because I don't enjoy seeing lvl cap maxed people everywhere.
I mean...I quit L2 cause I blew my weps over-enchanting...But I'd prefer it after having been lvl 60 in WoW for 2months in just 3 months of playing it...Some people I know in korea have 4-5 lvl 60 chars, and they've only been playing for 4months. That's ridiculous.
Some of them still play because the lush environment, some left because they couldn't cope with the overwhelmingly rewarding system.
WoW did do good for the business, attracted alot of casual gamers who are new to the MMO community. But those WoWers sure do whine alot after trying other MMOs...because they've been spoiled.
GRIND sucks? You wanna be max level in a month? Since when did society award easy-goers and lazy-fools? MAKES ME PHOBIC OF STUPIDITY!
Originally posted by fisherc Apparently you aren't a computer programmer Distress, you dont' understand the difference between Hardcoded change in Content (For example, A patch) and a game which content changes without a Patch (IE Players building Cities to change the game while the server is still running) It's like Html vs Php, Jsp etc. You have to physically change Html. But Php can update itself dynamically depnding on what you want it to do. It's not I that needs to study a dictionary, it's yourself. Look up persistent and world. Put them together. That's how objective meaning in English works. If you were actually following it, I would have been right in your mind all along. I know you think you are some great internet flamer/debater, your first post states that quite clearly. It's ok to have an ego, but having an ego will never make you win at life. If you find another source other than wikipedia that's reliable that backs up your statement and several others. Then you might have a foundation for argument but right now you have nothing. I've already pointed out the direct meaning of both of them and you ignore it. I can't explain it more clearly than that. So you are just trying to be an ass I presume.
Actually I am a programmer, and have been working on databases for awhile now. Specifically client/server interaction and data management.
As far as the dictonary goes, I gave you the meaning. As far as adding an object inside a level making that level somehow a dynamic autoupdating environment, you are wrong. Its just an object, like any other object like a tree a cow or a player.
Find another source other than the wikipedia atricle? Proove to me that that article is incorrect.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
A persistent world is a virtual world (often in a fantasy setting) that is used as a setting for a role-playing game, often online. The world is always available and world events happen continually.
The persistency comes from maintaining and developing the state of the gaming world around the clock. Unlike with other games, a persistent world game's plots and events continue to develop even while some of the players are not playing their character. The comparison is to the real world where events occur that are not directly connected to a person, or continue to happen while a person sleeps, etc. Likewise, a player's character can also influence and change a persistent world. The degree to which a character can affect a world varies from game to game. (Since, the game does not pause nor create player accessible back-up files, a character's actions will have consequences that the player must deal with.)
Persistent worlds do also exist in offline games, such as Animal Crossing. Even though technically nothing happens while the game is off, the illusion of persistency is created by advancing events as soon as the game is turned on and using the GameCube's clock as a guide for what should have happened, making it seem like events occurred while the game was off.
The term gained popularity with the growth in popularity of MMORPGs.
Overview
MMORPGs follow a client-server model. Players, running the client software, are represented in the game world by an avatar a graphical representation of the character they play. Providers (usually the game's publisher), host the persistent worlds these players inhabit. This interaction between a virtual world, always available for play, and an ever-changing, world-wide stream of players characterizes the Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game.
Those are very accurate articles. Mull over them, then email NCSoft, SOE and Mythic and ask it if is a correct representation.
I am sorry you are new to MMORPGs, but they have always been described as a persistant world. I know this makes you sad and bring up invalid points and quote Amazon.com, but you still are wrong.
Originally posted by fisherc You just bought into the marketting ploy of someone who wrote that entry for Wikipedia. Probably someone who works for WoW or EQII who advertise their games as persistent worlds. Wikipedia is NOT A SOURCE OF RELIABLE information. Hell... Here you go. I'll use an example that's more reliable than yours. AMAZON.com "Shadowbane is the first such product to embrace a dynamic world design model, in which players can physically affect the history, politics," ...
Oh fisher fisher...you're calling a wiki unreliable and then you proceed to quote a MARKETING statement from a SALES website...
How to lose an argument in one easy step...hehe.
Anyway...have at it...
hadz
Apparently my wit was lost on you. :P read it again, maybe you'll understand why I used it.
Ahhhh...now I see...you were being sarcastic...how clever...hehe.
It can definitely be said that WoW has bought MMORPG's into the mainstream and is making more and more people comfortable with the idea of paying a monthly subscription to play. But aside from that, is it doing the MMO or general games industry any good? No, it isn't. It's bad for MMO's and the general gaming industry and its sucess is to blame. Now I don't know what percentage of the MMO market Blizzard have and I don't know what percentage of the games market MMO's have. But I bet it's significant. So why is WoW's sucess so harmful?
Monthly Subscription
Loss of Competition
Lack of Innovation
Now let's look at each in a little more detail. The first is the monthly subscription. This applies to all games that charge subscription and not just WoW. I pay $19.95 per month to play a MMO and most games cost $90 when buying in my part of the world. For your average school/College/Uni student, that's probably your entire games budget right there. While they are playing an MMO, they are much less likely to buy other games. Or they buy other games less often. That means other games publishers have less money coming in which flows onto having less money to invest in new titles or hasten their stopping support or development for existing titles. And in the worst case, forcing them out of business.
The wild sucess of WoW may slow or even stop some competitors from releasing competitive titles to WoW
For those that do try and compete, they are likely to create more or less a clone of WoW or use a melange of features from WoW and EQ and maybe a few others along with their own content. But no real innovation. They want players to feel comfortable and familiar with the game as quickly as possible. They'll be looking to pick up the players who leave WoW or EQ looking for new content. But not necessarily a new game or new style of play.
Originally posted by fisherc Originally posted by angerr let me just jump in here and throw a few of my opinions in here... the label persistent world in a mmorpg (imo) is a world that allways exsists, even if you are not online that game world will still be there. it does not mean it will allways be the same and never change.....it just means the game world will allways exsist 24 hours a day 7 days a week. now using the word dynamic in a mmorpg is no different than using it in a single player offline game. a world can be a dynamic non persistent world just as a world can be a dynamic mmorpg. and yes i have seen all sorts of single player games being described as dynamic. btw all mmorpg's change during online play (just like the warning label on every mmorpg) maybe some change or are updated more than others but they all change or get content added at some point. All MMO'S DON'T change though. WoW has to be re-coded to be changed. Shadowbane does not, it changes through player interaction. Players change the face of the world building castles and cities etc.
actually wow does change man, if your talking about players changing the face of the world by building keeps and such thats something different. when i mean change i mean like the content gets patched, things get nerfed/buffed, things get added to zones that were not there before...stuff like that, they all change in those terms.
Comments
omg that is so true lol...... when i finally quit eq for wow i remember thinking to myself "im so glad i dont have to deal with that frustration of a full time job that is eq anymore" but now i miss it.....i miss the feeling it gave me.....ya it sucked at times but it was the game you loved to hate hehe...
read this http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1044304#post1044304 then come back and talk to me about the vanguard/soe fiasco.....
The only "good" thing WoW is doing is THREE things:
1. Keeping the kids out of my MMO.
2. Pulling alot of new customers to the mmo community.
3. Weeding out the mature customers; they realise how crap it is and join my MMO.
So thanks Blizzard
Amen. People kept saying a bunch of kids play Shadowbane, but my 50+ person guild has 0 people in it under the age of 20. The one kid got booted and has been banished from about 5 guilds allready.. Poor morder, he should play WoW..
Very good point. I quit the game after level 40 because of boredom. It definately helped the MMO community.
I've played plenty of RPGs that are a hundred times more captivating than WoW. WoW isn't so much an RPG as it is a "button clicking simulator". The extent of combat is literally clicking buttons in sequence, over and over again until level 60. Not to say this isn't like most RPGs, RPGs tend to focus more on character development than pure action. Unfortunately with WoW, there isn't any room for character developement; the entire game revolves around collecting lewtz and killing monsters in an endless grind cycle. There's pretty much nothing else do to (except PvP, which is pretty pointless at this point in the game).
Part of what makes the MMORPG great is its potential for entire online communities to form. The best parts of playing an MMO is interacting with your fellow players, and using the virtual world around you to accomplish wonderful things. In WoW, it's all there for you already, all you have to do is grind through it. If I wanted to play a button clicking simulator, I'd go and play with my freaking microwave.
If WoW's content can keep you interested for more than a week, you've got to be a real trooper.
From my experience with WoW, most of the content is pretty much blocked off unless you can devote 6 to 8 hours a day to playing. Leveling, especially at higher levels, can be painfully repetitive and slow, and organizing a guild for a raid encounter can take hours (not to mention the several hours spent going through the instance!). Casual players seem to be the ones that work their way up to level 40, have trouble scrounging up the required gold for a mount, and eventually become painfully frustrated with their lack of progress and quit before they reach level 60. These players simply don't have the time or the means to dedicate themselves to interacting with their guild, grinding for gear, and running through instances. I found it nearly impossible to get involved with any aspect of the game; I desired to play casually and got nowhere. I eventually quit in disgust before I was even able to experience the high end content, which most of the gameplay resides.
Basically, there is no such thing as WoW in moderation. Most people get sucked in and play for hours and hours at a time, and those that don't are wasting their money.
First off WoW has content that hasn't even been completed yet.(unless someone finally beat nefarion) They have an upcoming expansion that raises the max level and adds loads of new raid content.
And developing your character how? With a skill based system or roleplaying? WoW has a talent system that allows you to customize your characters abilities, before you say that there is only one path to be the best or whatever, all skill based systems have the same thing, there is that one uber template per "class."
You cannot complete the content in WoW in a week, I don't care who you are.
But alas, this post isn't about the points of wow gameplay. People like different games. I personally won't play a game that doesn't offer WASD support, since Lineage2 burnt me out on point and clip crap.
per·sis·tent
adj.
Insistently repetitive or continuous
Existing or remaining in the same state for an indefinitely long time; enduring
A MMORPG is a persistent world. What you are looking for is something else.
And BTW I don't play WoW anymore, I don't like raiding.
"WoW is the Best Thing to Happen to the MMO Business/Community"
In a sarcastic way,you got that right,it keep the bnet crowd and most of the immature/imbeciles mmo players away from the other good mmorpg's and this is a very good thing,i thank blizzard for that.
GRIND sucks? You wanna be max level in a month?
Since when did society award easy-goers and lazy-fools?
MAKES ME PHOBIC OF STUPIDITY!
Understand what you say...
You are actually incorrect. MMORPG != Persistent.
For Instance, EVE(The most massively multiplayer game out there), Shadowbane, To an Extent SWG. They are DYNAMIC. Their world changes depending on human interaction and control.
I'm gonna have to disagree with this. Mmo players who started with WoW are starting to show up in every game i play and all they do is piss and moan. "this is too hard" or "this takes too long". They're used to having everything handed to them. I can usually spot a WoW player before they even admit that WoW was their first mmo. I played WoW for three months and i actually kind of enjoyed the game. The soloing aspect was refreshing after so many party based mmos; but unlike most people i left because of the selfish, childish, rude, greedy community rather than the lack of end game content. Fortunately i had been playing mmos for years before WoW came out so finding a new game wasn't a problem.
There seems to be two types of mmorpgamers now: Those who started with WoW, and those who started with anything else. In Eve i sometimes join the beginners channel to help out and there seems to be a nonstop flow of WoW burnouts bashing everything in the game that's not like WoW. I kinda feel sorry for these people because i know they're just gonna go from game to game expecting something as easy and dumbed down as WoW and they're not gonna find it.
There is no best MMORPG, only favorites.
Actually I'm right. lol
I can tell you need a little bit more help there, chief. So here ya go --->More Help for you!<---
You really don't want to start this with me BTW, just a fair notice.
Actually I'm right. lol
I can tell you need a little bit more help there, chief. So here ya go --->More Help for you!<---
You really don't want to start this with me BTW, just a fair notice.
Oh please, come down off your high horse and lets see how tall your really are 'Napolean'. You used wikipedia as a source, not a good way to prove yourself. You are speaking french in an enlish debate using examples in hebrew.
You just bought into the marketting ploy of someone who wrote that entry for Wikipedia. Probably someone who works for WoW or EQII who advertise their games as persistent worlds. Wikipedia is NOT A SOURCE OF RELIABLE information.
Persistent: 1) Refusing to give up or let go; persevering obstinately 2) Insistently repetitive or continuous: a persistent ringing of the telephone. 3) Existing or remaining in the same state for an indefinitely long time; enduring: persistent rumors; a persistent infection.
A Persistent World: A WORLD THAT NEVER CHANGES UNLESS IT'S HARDCODING IS CHANGED(You have to make it a new game to change it), examples. WoW, EQII, Asheron's Call, EQI, Knight Online, etc. etc.
A Dynamic World: A WORLD THAT CHANGES ON IT'S OWN FROM PLAYER INTERACTION, WITHOUT THE NEED FOR HARDCODE CHANGES, EXAMPLES: Shadowbane, EVE Online, SWG.
Hell... Here you go. I'll use an example that's more reliable than yours.
AMAZON.com
"Shadowbane is the first such product to embrace a dynamic world
design model, in which players can physically affect the history, politics," ...
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B000067FDX/102-3928386-2863358?v=glance
Go back upstairs and try taking your anger out on a punching bag or something... When people get emotionally enflamed and then get all high and mighty when they are actually wrong... it makes me feel sorry for them. Work out the pain before making yourself look like a fool. That's my advice to you as a friend.
let me just jump in here and throw a few of my opinions in here...
the label persistent world in a mmorpg (imo) is a world that allways exsists, even if you are not online that game world will still be there. it does not mean it will allways be the same and never change.....it just means the game world will allways exsist 24 hours a day 7 days a week.
now using the word dynamic in a mmorpg is no different than using it in a single player offline game. a world can be a dynamic non persistent world just as a world can be a dynamic mmorpg. and yes i have seen all sorts of single player games being described as dynamic.
btw all mmorpg's change during online play (just like the warning label on every mmorpg) maybe some change or are updated more than others but they all change or get content added at some point.
read this http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1044304#post1044304 then come back and talk to me about the vanguard/soe fiasco.....
Oh fisher fisher...you're calling a wiki unreliable and then you proceed to quote a MARKETING statement from a SALES website...
How to lose an argument in one easy step...hehe.
Anyway...have at it...
hadz
Hadz, thank you there you summed it up for me.
Oh yeah, if you want to talk about what is coded as opposed to what isn't that magically makes the world "change" , you are on crack.
These changes in Shadowbane are coded in, I don't know why you think they aren't. Just like someone can put up a harvester or house in SWG. It makes no difference either way, the world is still persistant, and some elements are can change, kinda like your friend could be 10 when you log off and 15 when you log back in. Not a strong statement.
Back to the roots of the MMORPG, they have been described by the developers,publishers,and distributers as a persistant world. The wiki is correct on its explanation, I'm sorry that you feel that a marketing statement is more reliable than that particular wiki page, but what you had put in there really has nothing to do with what we are talking about.
Just because someone says "wow, that EQ sure is dynamic" does not mean that the world is not a persistant world. Go study a dictonary, then learn about the history of MMORPGS, log 1/3 of the time I have on 1/2 of the games I've played, then come talk to me about something. Because right now, you are clueless.
Oh fisher fisher...you're calling a wiki unreliable and then you proceed to quote a MARKETING statement from a SALES website...
How to lose an argument in one easy step...hehe.
Anyway...have at it...
hadz
Apparently my wit was lost on you. :P read it again, maybe you'll understand why I used it.
Hadz, thank you there you summed it up for me.
Oh yeah, if you want to talk about what is coded as opposed to what isn't that magically makes the world "change" , you are on crack.
These changes in Shadowbane are coded in, I don't know why you think they aren't. Just like someone can put up a harvester or house in SWG. It makes no difference either way, the world is still persistant, and some elements are can change, kinda like your friend could be 10 when you log off and 15 when you log back in. Not a strong statement.
Back to the roots of the MMORPG, they have been described by the developers,publishers,and distributers as a persistant world. The wiki is correct on its explanation, I'm sorry that you feel that a marketing statement is more reliable than that particular wiki page, but what you had put in there really has nothing to do with what we are talking about.
Just because someone says "wow, that EQ sure is dynamic" does not mean that the world is not a persistant world. Go study a dictonary, then learn about the history of MMORPGS, log 1/3 of the time I have on 1/2 of the games I've played, then come talk to me about something. Because right now, you are clueless.
Apparently you aren't a computer programmer Distress, you dont' understand the difference between Hardcoded change in Content (For example, A patch) and a game which content changes without a Patch (IE Players building Cities to change the game while the server is still running)
It's not I that needs to study a dictionary, it's yourself. Look up persistent and world. Put them together. That's how objective meaning in English works. If you were actually following it, I would have been right in your mind all along.
I'm not the one who needs to study a dictionary...
I know you think you are some great internet flamer/debater, your first post states that quite clearly. It's ok to have an ego, but having an ego will never make you win at life.
If you find another source other than wikipedia that's reliable that backs up your statement and several others. Then you might have a foundation for argument but right now you have nothing.
Hadz, thank you there you summed it up for me.
Oh yeah, if you want to talk about what is coded as opposed to what isn't that magically makes the world "change" , you are on crack.
These changes in Shadowbane are coded in, I don't know why you think they aren't. Just like someone can put up a harvester or house in SWG. It makes no difference either way, the world is still persistant, and some elements are can change, kinda like your friend could be 10 when you log off and 15 when you log back in. Not a strong statement.
Back to the roots of the MMORPG, they have been described by the developers,publishers,and distributers as a persistant world. The wiki is correct on its explanation, I'm sorry that you feel that a marketing statement is more reliable than that particular wiki page, but what you had put in there really has nothing to do with what we are talking about.
Just because someone says "wow, that EQ sure is dynamic" does not mean that the world is not a persistant world. Go study a dictonary, then learn about the history of MMORPGS, log 1/3 of the time I have on 1/2 of the games I've played, then come talk to me about something. Because right now, you are clueless.
Apparently you aren't a computer programmer Distress, you dont' understand the difference between Hardcoded change in Content (For example, A patch) and a game which content changes without a Patch (IE Players building Cities to change the game while the server is still running) It's like Html vs Php, Jsp etc. You have to physically change Html. But Php can update itself dynamically depnding on what you want it to do.
It's not I that needs to study a dictionary, it's yourself. Look up persistent and world. Put them together. That's how objective meaning in English works. If you were actually following it, I would have been right in your mind all along.
I know you think you are some great internet flamer/debater, your first post states that quite clearly. It's ok to have an ego, but having an ego will never make you win at life.
If you find another source other than wikipedia that's reliable that backs up your statement and several others. Then you might have a foundation for argument but right now you have nothing.
I've already pointed out the direct meaning of both of them and you ignore it. I can't explain it more clearly than that. So you are just trying to be an ass I presume.
98% of the teenage population does or has tried smoking pot. If you''re one of the 2% who hasn''t, copy & paste this in your signature.
To sum it all up...WoW did bring a sense of success into the MMO community.
I will admit there are alot of newcomers into the genre thanks to WoW.
But usually casual gamers, and most of them seem to whine alot about the lvling aspects in other games. Either cause it's too long or too hard for them
I for one, played WoW 3 months. And I'm done with. The game has great concepts and it is in overall a well made game.
But as a gamer who started back from the early days of Atari-like UO on the Mac, I'm a traditional MUG player and WoW, well it doesn't fit the taste of gamers like me. Let's just put it "too rewarding in my taste".
I hate L2's grind or FFXIs combat system+party required play...But I'd much prefer something like L2.
The drama in the game. So much hate, anger, and animosity( same for UO)...the politics involved...and of course the harsh grind I prefer, because I don't enjoy seeing lvl cap maxed people everywhere.
I mean...I quit L2 cause I blew my weps over-enchanting...But I'd prefer it after having been lvl 60 in WoW for 2months in just 3 months of playing it...Some people I know in korea have 4-5 lvl 60 chars, and they've only been playing for 4months. That's ridiculous.
Some of them still play because the lush environment, some left because they couldn't cope with the overwhelmingly rewarding system.
WoW did do good for the business, attracted alot of casual gamers who are new to the MMO community. But those WoWers sure do whine alot after trying other MMOs...because they've been spoiled.
GRIND sucks? You wanna be max level in a month?
Since when did society award easy-goers and lazy-fools?
MAKES ME PHOBIC OF STUPIDITY!
Actually I am a programmer, and have been working on databases for awhile now. Specifically client/server interaction and data management.
As far as the dictonary goes, I gave you the meaning. As far as adding an object inside a level making that level somehow a dynamic autoupdating environment, you are wrong. Its just an object, like any other object like a tree a cow or a player.
Find another source other than the wikipedia atricle? Proove to me that that article is incorrect.
Those are very accurate articles. Mull over them, then email NCSoft, SOE and Mythic and ask it if is a correct representation.
I am sorry you are new to MMORPGs, but they have always been described as a persistant world. I know this makes you sad and bring up invalid points and quote Amazon.com, but you still are wrong.
Oh fisher fisher...you're calling a wiki unreliable and then you proceed to quote a MARKETING statement from a SALES website...
How to lose an argument in one easy step...hehe.
Anyway...have at it...
hadz
Apparently my wit was lost on you. :P read it again, maybe you'll understand why I used it.
Ahhhh...now I see...you were being sarcastic...how clever...hehe.
It can definitely be said that WoW has bought MMORPG's into the mainstream and is making more and more people comfortable with the idea of paying a monthly subscription to play. But aside from that, is it doing the MMO or general games industry any good? No, it isn't. It's bad for MMO's and the general gaming industry and its sucess is to blame. Now I don't know what percentage of the MMO market Blizzard have and I don't know what percentage of the games market MMO's have. But I bet it's significant. So why is WoW's sucess so harmful?
Now let's look at each in a little more detail.
The first is the monthly subscription. This applies to all games that charge subscription and not just WoW. I pay $19.95 per month to play a MMO and most games cost $90 when buying in my part of the world. For your average school/College/Uni student, that's probably your entire games budget right there. While they are playing an MMO, they are much less likely to buy other games. Or they buy other games less often. That means other games publishers have less money coming in which flows onto having less money to invest in new titles or hasten their stopping support or development for existing titles. And in the worst case, forcing them out of business.
The wild sucess of WoW may slow or even stop some competitors from releasing competitive titles to WoW
For those that do try and compete, they are likely to create more or less a clone of WoW or use a melange of features from WoW and EQ and maybe a few others along with their own content. But no real innovation. They want players to feel comfortable and familiar with the game as quickly as possible. They'll be looking to pick up the players who leave WoW or EQ looking for new content. But not necessarily a new game or new style of play.
It's a lot safer to emulate than innovate.
actually wow does change man, if your talking about players changing the face of the world by building keeps and such thats something different. when i mean change i mean like the content gets patched, things get nerfed/buffed, things get added to zones that were not there before...stuff like that, they all change in those terms.
read this http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1044304#post1044304 then come back and talk to me about the vanguard/soe fiasco.....