Brad is much more skilled than me in writing (in english especially).
However, he says that peoples either:
- Want to achieve everything. See everything (for the monthly fees they pay)
- Want challenge and accept indirect competition and to be lame because of such features.
Well, sorry Brad, I am in neither groups! I want challenge but I doesn't accept any competition with a human player over ressources (except in PvP, but I play on PvE servers, so either open the PvP or close it, don't let it half open for jerks to abuse it). If I doesn't achieve something, it must be because of the challenge itself and because of me, not because I am not guilded or because other players are abusing the respawn point like if it was an Angelina Joly open bar! I can accept to fail because my group lack, this is close enough to me, I can rework and get a better group going...but a raid or guild? Sorry, no interest at all...and MANY (the overwhelming majority hardly raid and hardly do guildstuff on a noticeable basic) players doesn't want anything to do with raiding, putting a raiding ending on their head is mean and bad, especially that all MMOs are doing such a lame thing. For me, player-competition is ALWAYS bad if you are in a real time setting, it is already a compromise for me to play in real time (prolly always will), competition over limited ressources while you are already under a compromise is not acceptable (I doesn't PvP in real time, I doesn't compete harsly in real time). (I will accept friendly cooperative competition, like who is the first to do this, where achieving something doesn't means removing anything from others except maybe on a ranking board).
I would throw a tease at Brad...are you unable to make the player progression slow and hard without using other players? Are you admitting before I even play the game that you can't entertain me for what I am seeking? Or are you up to the challenge of not using others players against me in any form, but always considering them helping me or ignoring me in every case? From my limited english, I think I understand that, but I must just not understand english properly! My tolerance to waiting and not playing is pretty low (die boat die), but been among the folks who impress folks by always leveling to fast, I think I can take quite a long XP curve...after all, I maxed all my AAs in EQ by mid-march 2003 (545 on a chanter back then), which was possibly a server-wide first and most certainly a server first! I am sure a bright dev can figure something out to keep me busy in 1 zone or 2 without shafting the casuals, can't you?
And so on, Brad is very brilliant and very skilled with writing, but he willingly take such shortcut to advance his points, where the uber-raiders ends up abusing non-raiders. Group uberness belong to groupers, Solo uberness belong to soloers. If someone disagree, we will never reach an agreement there, I am adamant.
I am not completely trashing their approach about persistant world, it has many interesting features. But no matter how much I repeat myself, raiding-rewards is the problem for MANY players.
Brad make a mistake, he want to retain a player at all cost. A player that leave happy is better than a player that remain longer in game to finally leave unhappy, those 4 extra months of subscribtions are not worth the lost of "fanbase faction" it cost you, $60 is worth less than a happy customer, it is merely the cost of the initial box and raiding rarely retain a player for longer than 4 months unless that player happens to like raiding, in which case raiding didn't need to be "end game" to retain that player. Someone who leave happy is a potential customer in the future, if he doesn't come back at the expension, it may be because if find another game but if you did your job right, it is most likely for RL reasons and he would have quit anyway. Blizzard will suffer greatly from the raiding mistake, it fanbase will leave unhappy, this is a "first" happening in Blizzard history. Someone who leave is not the desired outcome and it is not to be taken lightly, but keeping them by changing the gameplay is certainly ruining the franchise in the long run, it remove all trust the player has in you, which means it will hurt further projects.
PS: About my signature, yes, it work equally well for any other aspect, a real soloer or grouper like me will group and solo even if this doesn't give me any advantage inside PvP, Tradeskills or raiding, I doesn't play for those, I play for solo or grouping reasons solely. If someone won't raid if raiding doesn't give him advantages in others aspects of the game, he is simply no real raider but a lame guy who enjoy gaining unfair advantage and not deserving them, the DKP system is a magnificiant proof of this.
PPS: Raiding has FAR more impact on the game than many seems to believe it has. A minority of players are raiders, let's advance that 5% of the current MMORPGs players are raiders(fictionnal number, it is prolly less), this still doesn't make 1% of the market the company want to reach(the console players and other gamers)...and raiding might not mess with the majority of other players, but it will mess with far more players than the minority you are catering...10% of 95% is still 9,5%(fictionnal number again, prolly more than 10%)...and it is messing with far more than 10% of the non-raiders. How do you think a casual reacts when I say I have no hope of reaching the TOP and I am a pointlessly underated character in a game when he consider me to be ultimately uber and hardcore? Reproduce that to a big scale, most casuals have a friend they consider hardcore who is not a raider and that will tell him exactly that line in a different way. I can tell you, my casuals friends left EQ when I told them such a line, over other issues openly, but well, HOPE is everything...and if someone doesn't raid, he CAN'T HOPE!
PPPS: Why do EVERY MMO's enforce something lame on the soloers/groupers? Brad himself say there is not only 1 approach, why does EVERY MMO's finish with another system after grouping/soloing? Why can't 1, only 1 good MMO, finish in grouping or soloing (LDoN-like would be droolicious for me, with a never-ending opening or something like that, but that would be just for me hehe)? All the games on the left, they all finish in raiding/PvP/Tradeskill, not 1 of them finish in grouping or soloing...considering that the core of their gameplay is centered about either grouping or soloing, sound pretty lacking to me!
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
We are all entitled to our opinions.. now we know yours.. unfortunately for you, the majority of the folks that pay and play MMOs likely disagree with it. The breed that prefers having thier quest mobs camped, farmed and stolen at the last second are not the majority. Perhaps the "elite" would prefer it.. but an mmo isnt going to survive on that minorities funding.
Brad is much more skilled than me in writing (in english especially).
However, he says that peoples either: - Want to achieve everything. See everything (for the monthly fees they pay) - Want challenge and accept indirect competition and to be lame because of such features.
Well, sorry Brad, I am in neither groups! I want challenge but I doesn't accept any competition with a human player over ressources (except in PvP, but I play on PvE servers, so either open the PvP or close it, don't let it half open for jerks to abuse it). If I doesn't achieve something, it must be because of the challenge itself and because of me, not because I am not guilded or because other players are abusing the respawn point like if it was an Angelina Joly open bar! I can accept to fail because my group lack, this is close enough to me, I can rework and get a better group going...but a raid or guild? Sorry, no interest at all...and MANY (the overwhelming majority hardly raid and hardly do guildstuff on a noticeable basic) players doesn't want anything to do with raiding, putting a raiding ending on their head is mean and bad, especially that all MMOs are doing such a lame thing. For me, player-competition is ALWAYS bad if you are in a real time setting, it is already a compromise for me to play in real time (prolly always will), competition over limited ressources while you are already under a compromise is not acceptable (I doesn't PvP in real time, I doesn't compete harsly in real time). (I will accept friendly cooperative competition, like who is the first to do this, where achieving something doesn't means removing anything from others except maybe on a ranking board).
I would throw a tease at Brad...are you unable to make the player progression slow and hard without using other players? Are you admitting before I even play the game that you can't entertain me for what I am seeking? Or are you up to the challenge of not using others players against me in any form, but always considering them helping me or ignoring me in every case? From my limited english, I think I understand that, but I must just not understand english properly! My tolerance to waiting and not playing is pretty low (die boat die), but been among the folks who impress folks by always leveling to fast, I think I can take quite a long XP curve...after all, I maxed all my AAs in EQ by mid-march 2003 (545 on a chanter back then), which was possibly a server-wide first and most certainly a server first! I am sure a bright dev can figure something out to keep me busy in 1 zone or 2 without shafting the casuals, can't you?
And so on, Brad is very brilliant and very skilled with writing, but he willingly take such shortcut to advance his points, where the uber-raiders ends up abusing non-raiders. Group uberness belong to groupers, Solo uberness belong to soloers. If someone disagree, we will never reach an agreement there, I am adamant.
I am not completely trashing their approach about persistant world, it has many interesting features. But no matter how much I repeat myself, raiding-rewards is the problem for MANY players.
Brad make a mistake, he want to retain a player at all cost. A player that leave happy is better than a player that remain longer in game to finally leave unhappy, those 4 extra months of subscribtions are not worth the lost of "fanbase faction" it cost you, $60 is worth less than a happy customer, it is merely the cost of the initial box and raiding rarely retain a player for longer than 4 months unless that player happens to like raiding, in which case raiding didn't need to be "end game" to retain that player. Someone who leave happy is a potential customer in the future, if he doesn't come back at the expension, it may be because if find another game but if you did your job right, it is most likely for RL reasons and he would have quit anyway. Blizzard will suffer greatly from the raiding mistake, it fanbase will leave unhappy, this is a "first" happening in Blizzard history. Someone who leave is not the desired outcome and it is not to be taken lightly, but keeping them by changing the gameplay is certainly ruining the franchise in the long run, it remove all trust the player has in you, which means it will hurt further projects.
PS: About my signature, yes, it work equally well for any other aspect, a real soloer or grouper like me will group and solo even if this doesn't give me any advantage inside PvP, Tradeskills or raiding, I doesn't play for those, I play for solo or grouping reasons solely. If someone won't raid if raiding doesn't give him advantages in others aspects of the game, he is simply no real raider but a lame guy who enjoy gaining unfair advantage and not deserving them, the DKP system is a magnificiant proof of this. PPS: Raiding has FAR more impact on the game than many seems to believe it has. A minority of players are raiders, let's advance that 5% of the current MMORPGs players are raiders(fictionnal number, it is prolly less), this still doesn't make 1% of the market the company want to reach(the console players and other gamers)...and raiding might not mess with the majority of other players, but it will mess with far more players than the minority you are catering...10% of 95% is still 9,5%(fictionnal number again, prolly more than 10%)...and it is messing with far more than 10% of the non-raiders. How do you think a casual reacts when I say I have no hope of reaching the TOP and I am a pointlessly underated character in a game when he consider me to be ultimately uber and hardcore? Reproduce that to a big scale, most casuals have a friend they consider hardcore who is not a raider and that will tell him exactly that line in a different way. I can tell you, my casuals friends left EQ when I told them such a line, over other issues openly, but well, HOPE is everything...and if someone doesn't raid, he CAN'T HOPE! PPPS: Why do EVERY MMO's enforce something lame on the soloers/groupers? Brad himself say there is not only 1 approach, why does EVERY MMO's finish with another system after grouping/soloing? Why can't 1, only 1 good MMO, finish in grouping or soloing (LDoN-like would be droolicious for me, with a never-ending opening or something like that, but that would be just for me hehe)? All the games on the left, they all finish in raiding/PvP/Tradeskill, not 1 of them finish in grouping or soloing...considering that the core of their gameplay is centered about either grouping or soloing, sound pretty lacking to me![/b][/quote]
i understand you want just one game that fits your play style, and i have explained in other of my posts why there never will be a mmorpg like that. 5% of current mmorpg being people that raid is highly flawed, please supply proof to this because i don't agree at all.
i know and heard of very few mmorpg players that refuse to raid, especially those that consider themselves "hardcore" gamers. while i don't have any facts backing up my theory i would say the mmorpg gamer that doesn't like to raid is by far the minority but i could be wrong, but it is nowhere near 5% like you claim, that is just a ridiculous claim.
look, i favor soloing i play wow currently and spend almost all of my time soloing and i haven't raided in a long time. but how do you expect a game like wow or vanguard, that has a persistent world heavily focused on guild and community to be primarily focused on solo play and small grouping?
there are plenty of rpg's out there that have online play without raiding like NWN and DS, mmorpg's are more for massive online play and yes raiding. they are also more of a time sink so it wouldn't really be smart to make a game to just solo or have small grouping because that will get old real quick and wouldn't be able to hold subscribers for a long time.
like i have said before i hope you can find a game or a server that you can be happy in, but i don't think a mmorpg will ever be made like you want, and it is because the average mmorpg does indeed want to raid. i truly believe that and until you can show me facts to back up your 5% claim i will continue to believe it.
Originally posted by angerr i understand you want just one game that fits your play style, and i have explained in other of my posts why there never will be a mmorpg like that. 5% of current mmorpg being people that raid is highly flawed, please supply proof to this because i don't agree at all. i know and heard of very few mmorpg players that refuse to raid, especially those that consider themselves "hardcore" gamers. while i don't have any facts backing up my theory i would say the mmorpg gamer that doesn't like to raid is by far the minority but i could be wrong, but it is nowhere near 5% like you claim, that is just a ridiculous claim. look, i favor soloing i play wow currently and spend almost all of my time soloing and i haven't raided in a long time. but how do you expect a game like wow or vanguard, that has a persistent world heavily focused on guild and community to be primarily focused on solo play and small grouping? there are plenty of rpg's out there that have online play without raiding like NWN and DS, mmorpg's are more for massive online play and yes raiding. they are also more of a time sink so it wouldn't really be smart to make a game to just solo or have small grouping because that will get old real quick and wouldn't be able to hold subscribers for a long time. like i have said before i hope you can find a game or a server that you can be happy in, but i don't think a mmorpg will ever be made like you want, and it is because the average mmorpg does indeed want to raid. i truly believe that and until you can show me facts to back up your 5% claim i will continue to believe it.
I was there when the first wave of EQ players meet raiding. Most of those players left EQ completely angered at raiding, but it is spread over time and was not instant. Only a few say no from the start. It is spread a little over the time and most of them hardly voice a complaint unless you work them to talk a little. New players leave because of raiding in the same ratio, it is just spread even more over time and it completely ruin the company fanbase in the long run. You have no idea how badly SoE hurt it fanbase over the years and don't you think raiding is not the master reason.
You can easily find that less than 5% of the players are raiding in the current MMOs, you want me to provide you numbers SoE doesn't reveal (or other competitors). But consider all the peoples who have an account. Then consider how many raid SIGNIFICANTLY on their total amount of time.
On my EQ server, there was arguably 400 raiders at best at any moment, let's say the big number is 1000 raiders (which is far less) on a total population of 10k...that is 10%...EQ is the most Raid-oriented game and it is easy to divided by 2 when you want to make a mixt with let's say...WoW and the like!
Numbers you can't get, you can make a rought estimate and be generous for the other side...5% is been overly generous. I can tell you other servers harass me to join their guild, talk about a shortage of players when most guilds on your server try to recruit you and many cross server guilds! LOL.
WoW is pure trash for a hardcore soloer, you can't be the best soloer either. My casuals friends (not hardcores) are all annoyed by the fact it is raiders who solo best. Even if they bear it (a minority), they are not happy about it. He who can't dream to master his craft doesn't enjoy his craft as much.Be it solo, grouping, raiding, PvP, tradeskill or raiding.
I want a MMO that favour Grouping and/or soloing to the end. Don't send me to the travesty of Neverwinter Night, I have all D&D products except 2 (computer products I mean). I won't bear that travesty! It is not D&D! Dungeon Siege is not even able to make a working saving system!
Hehe, I hope you enjoy my company, I am adamant and determined, I am not going to go away because someone ask or disagree. I can't bring numbers I doesn't have access to. But SoE and Sigil know pretty well that 5% of raiders is extremely generous, the raiders are a tiny minority. Call it community as much as you want, a minority of community. Humans who are prone to such heavy community oriented stuff are usually not very computer games oriented, they prefer real life rightfully.
All the MMOs focus the core of their game around PvE solo/grouping...yet for the ending they put a lame "End Game". A bright dev will finish it in a hardcore grouping or soloing system! Have no doubts. If it is not Sigil, to bad for them, they won't be able to say they didn't get advices about it.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Originally posted by Anofalye Originally posted by angerr i understand you want just one game that fits your play style, and i have explained in other of my posts why there never will be a mmorpg like that. 5% of current mmorpg being people that raid is highly flawed, please supply proof to this because i don't agree at all. i know and heard of very few mmorpg players that refuse to raid, especially those that consider themselves "hardcore" gamers. while i don't have any facts backing up my theory i would say the mmorpg gamer that doesn't like to raid is by far the minority but i could be wrong, but it is nowhere near 5% like you claim, that is just a ridiculous claim. look, i favor soloing i play wow currently and spend almost all of my time soloing and i haven't raided in a long time. but how do you expect a game like wow or vanguard, that has a persistent world heavily focused on guild and community to be primarily focused on solo play and small grouping? there are plenty of rpg's out there that have online play without raiding like NWN and DS, mmorpg's are more for massive online play and yes raiding. they are also more of a time sink so it wouldn't really be smart to make a game to just solo or have small grouping because that will get old real quick and wouldn't be able to hold subscribers for a long time. like i have said before i hope you can find a game or a server that you can be happy in, but i don't think a mmorpg will ever be made like you want, and it is because the average mmorpg does indeed want to raid. i truly believe that and until you can show me facts to back up your 5% claim i will continue to believe it. I was there when the first wave of EQ players meet raiding. Most of those players left EQ completely angered at raiding, but it is spread over time and was not instant. Only a few say no from the start. It is spread a little over the time and most of them hardly voice a complaint unless you work them to talk a little. New players leave because of raiding in the same ratio, it is just spread even more over time and it completely ruin the company fanbase in the long run. You have no idea how badly SoE hurt it fanbase over the years and don't you think raiding is not the master reason. You can easily find that less than 5% of the players are raiding in the current MMOs, you want me to provide you numbers SoE doesn't reveal (or other competitors). But consider all the peoples who have an account. Then consider how many raid SIGNIFICANTLY on their total amount of time. On my EQ server, there was arguably 400 raiders at best at any moment, let's say the big number is 1000 raiders (which is far less) on a total population of 10k...that is 10%...EQ is the most Raid-oriented game and it is easy to divided by 2 when you want to make a mixt with let's say...WoW and the like!
Numbers you can't get, you can make a rought estimate and be generous for the other side...5% is been overly generous. I can tell you other servers harass me to join their guild, talk about a shortage of players when most guilds on your server try to recruit you and many cross server guilds! LOL.
WoW is pure trash for a hardcore soloer, you can't be the best soloer either. My casuals friends (not hardcores) are all annoyed by the fact it is raiders who solo best. Even if they bear it (a minority), they are not happy about it. He who can't dream to master his craft doesn't enjoy his craft as much. Be it solo, grouping, raiding, PvP, tradeskill or raiding.
I want a MMO that favour Grouping and/or soloing to the end. Don't send me to the travesty of Neverwinter Night, I have all D&D products except 2 (computer products I mean). I won't bear that travesty! It is not D&D! Dungeon Siege is not even able to make a working saving system!
Hehe, I hope you enjoy my company, I am adamant and determined, I am not going to go away because someone ask or disagree. I can't bring numbers I doesn't have access to. But SoE and Sigil know pretty well that 5% of raiders is extremely generous, the raiders are a tiny minority. Call it community as much as you want, a minority of community. Humans who are prone to such heavy community oriented stuff are usually not very computer games oriented, they prefer real life rightfully.
All the MMOs focus the core of their game around PvE solo/grouping...yet for the ending they put a lame "End Game". A bright dev will finish it in a hardcore grouping or soloing system! Have no doubts. If it is not Sigil, to bad for them, they won't be able to say they didn't get advices about it.
lol i don't expect you to "go away" my friend, i am here to discuss and i am well aware not everyone will agree with me and thats why i come here
the only thing i ask is people don't say the same things over and over in their posts, its kind of a pet piev of mine but say what you want it is all good, i just might call you on it.
but i do disagree on the 5% argument, yes i to played about 4 years of eq and while i didn't play the game until a little before pop was released, once i got to max level of 65 everybody was raid geared and i mean everybody. and almost everyone was max level or near it, while i don't have any proof backing up my claim either i can honestly say at least 40-50%(and this is a generous %) of everyone on that server was raiding considering the amount of people that were max level.
and while i do agree wow is not a good solo game for a hardcore gamer, it is still the best(mmorpg) game for a soloer i have seen. and alot of people raid and like it, people complain about endgame and want more, maybe not as many as in eq but still more that 5% i assure you.
honestly if it was really only 5% we would know it because there would be alot more people like you complaining all over the place. i think if you are talking about casual gamers you may be right, but those are people that usually play consoles and i have always thought that mmorpg's are not meant for true casual gamers. that is just my opinion, I'm going to look into this more i might make a poll about this..
edit: i made a poll in GD about this just to see what people thought, i messed up on the poll and it wont let me edit it. i wanted to have 4 answers 2 no and 2 yes but i dunno what happened, plus it wont let me fix a typo in the poll either . oh well, here is the link to it though if you are interested click
The way raiding hatred and dislike happen is progressive. A player who never raid before and is presented with raiding will naturally give it a try. He is not a raider yet, he is trying raiding...if after a few months he still is raiding, than he is a raider...but most leave before a few months elapse, the imposing majority leave. Most raid leaders will tell you that only a minority will fit into the raiding world...a tiny minority...among the minority who reach maximum level...a minority among a minority is about 5% to me.
If you want to believe what devs says, sure go ahead, for them it is FAR easier to put 1 mob and stick 70 players around, not much content to offer. Bandwith challenges is actually something to motivate some folks.
Content is very limited and scarse with raiding, it please the devs. They know it is a minority who enjoy raiding, but most peoples give it a try before they leave. If it please you to believe there are more than 5% of raiders out there, please be my guest and dream on. The awakening is going to be brutal if you are a dev.
Having 14 encounters instead of 1 is a LOT more work for the devs, they rather focus on fixing bandwiths...but most peoples are not happy in big nasty raiding community. In fact, I doesn't remember reading happiness much in the guildchat of any uberguild I join (eh, I give it a try and I can tell you I read mucho harshness in those guildchats). Group challenge require much more thinking...so much harder than Brad seem to believe he can't make it challenging without using other players to slow you down. Raiding as the end game is the lazy devs walk out, I rather have instancing and work where it matter than have no instancing and lack of work in group challenges.
But you want to believe that more than 5% of the WoW players are raiders...so let's see...5 millions...means 250k raiders...I doubt there is 250k raiders in WoW...like I said, it was overly generous! Go check for yourself how many guilds raid, nearly every raiding guild has a website or a forum but if you want to throw a X2 assuming many doesn't (lol, not many raiding guilds has no website or forum...not many at all). Shouldn't be to much troubles to figure.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Originally posted by Anofalye The way raiding hatred and dislike happen is progressive. A player who never raid before and is presented with raiding will naturally give it a try. He is not a raider yet, he is trying raiding...if after a few months he still is raiding, than he is a raider...but most leave before a few months elapse, the imposing majority leave. Most raid leaders will tell you that only a minority will fit into the raiding world...a tiny minority...among the minority who reach maximum level...a minority among a minority is about 5% to me.
If you want to believe what devs says, sure go ahead, for them it is FAR easier to put 1 mob and stick 70 players around, not much content to offer. Bandwith challenges is actually something to motivate some folks.
Content is very limited and scarse with raiding, it please the devs. They know it is a minority who enjoy raiding, but most peoples give it a try before they leave. If it please you to believe there are more than 5% of raiders out there, please be my guest and dream on. The awakening is going to be brutal if you are a dev.
Having 14 encounters instead of 1 is a LOT more work for the devs, they rather focus on fixing bandwiths...but most peoples are not happy in big nasty raiding community. In fact, I doesn't remember reading happiness much in the guildchat of any uberguild I join (eh, I give it a try and I can tell you I read mucho harshness in those guildchats). Group challenge require much more thinking...so much harder than Brad seem to believe he can't make it challenging without using other players to slow you down. Raiding as the end game is the lazy devs walk out, I rather have instancing and work where it matter than have no instancing and lack of work in group challenges.
But you want to believe that more than 5% of the WoW players are raiders...so let's see...5 millions...means 250k raiders...I doubt there is 250k raiders in WoW...like I said, it was overly generous! Go check for yourself how many guilds raid, nearly every raiding guild has a website or a forum but if you want to throw a X2 assuming many doesn't (lol, not many raiding guilds has no website or forum...not many at all). Shouldn't be to much troubles to figure.
there are alot of people not max level in wow, yeah you could argue more people that play wow don't like to raid mainly because there is alot of casuals that play. but you used eq as your example, eq doesn't have alot of casuals at all. remember casual is 10 hours per week or less, there is no time to even think about raiding even if you did ever get max level.
but i agree in wow there isn't alot of raiding guilds vs casual ones or just smaller guilds, alot of casual people play way more than hardcore like you and i. go check out the GD thread i responded to you post there to
there are alot of people not max level in wow, yeah you could argue more people that play wow don't like to raid mainly because there is alot of casuals that play. but you used eq as your example, eq doesn't have alot of casuals at all. remember casual is 10 hours per week or less, there is no time to even think about raiding even if you did ever get max level. but i agree in wow there isn't alot of raiding guilds vs casual ones or just smaller guilds, alot of casual people play way more than hardcore like you and i. go check out the GD thread i responded to you post there to
If you take EQ over the WHOLE of it progression, from the start, you will see that the vast majority are not raiders. Most guilds in EQ hardly raid more than twice per month (today guilds), those are not raiders most of the time, some may even dislike raiding but do it once in a while just to test it, but they remain in the game to please their friends. If you only count today players in EQ and ignore all those that left, the number would be artificially bigger. Take the whole of the MMORPG. In pre-Kunark EQ...I didn't pick just EQ, I pick the whole market and select EQ as the raiding most heavily focused game...and still, raiders are a minority, even in EQ!
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Originally posted by Anofalye Originally posted by angerr there are alot of people not max level in wow, yeah you could argue more people that play wow don't like to raid mainly because there is alot of casuals that play. but you used eq as your example, eq doesn't have alot of casuals at all. remember casual is 10 hours per week or less, there is no time to even think about raiding even if you did ever get max level. but i agree in wow there isn't alot of raiding guilds vs casual ones or just smaller guilds, alot of casual people play way more than hardcore like you and i. go check out the GD thread i responded to you post there to If you take EQ over the WHOLE of it progression, from the start, you will see that the vast majority are not raiders. Most guilds in EQ hardly raid more than twice per month (today guilds), those are not raiders most of the time, some may even dislike raiding but do it once in a while just to test it, but they remain in the game to please their friends. If you only count today players in EQ and ignore all those that left, the number would be artificially bigger. Take the whole of the MMORPG. In pre-Kunark EQ...I didn't pick just EQ, I pick the whole market and select EQ as the raiding most heavily focused game...and still, raiders are a minority, even in EQ!
well i wrote another post that got butchered and lost somehow, god what is wrong with this site anyways?
I'm not going to rewrite that post again, but i disagree with you there and from experience on my server i know most every person max level did indeed raid. if you don't want to believe that is fine, i do hope you get the game you are looking for and goodluck with that, but can we end this discussion? because obviously it is not based on fact but opinion only from both sides.
I know many players left at max level without raiding or trying to raid and left angered, most of my friends and folks I group and level with did that. Many guild leaders would also confirm what I say, after working hard on recruiting, they know raiders are a tiny minority. Just find an honest guild leader who recruit for raiding, he will tell you how few are raid-wanting...a tiny minority. Each EQ server harbor more than 10k players...not many raiding guild...in fact you have very few of them...15 maybe, with 300 members in the ONE monstruous, than drop to 150 and below 100 for the 2nd and 3rd (550 raiders in the 3 biggest guilds at most...and this is temporary and overly exagerated numbers...and merely 450 others raiders at best on the server, in the best moment, on the best case scenario...so you have 10% in the optimal scenario on the optimal raiding situation and we are assuming all this staff are raiders when in fact you have folks like me in those and I would skin alive someone saying I am a raider, I am NOT)...on 10k players per server (or more, 3k online per server)...those are small minorities.
But you are free to believe devs lies or half-lies.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
I know many players left at max level without raiding or trying to raid and left angered, most of my friends and folks I group and level with did that. Many guild leaders would also confirm what I say, after working hard on recruiting, they know raiders are a tiny minority. Just find an honest guild leader who recruit for raiding, he will tell you how few are raid-wanting...a tiny minority. Each EQ server harbor more than 10k players...not many raiding guild...in fact you have very few of them...15 maybe, with 300 members in the ONE monstruous, than drop to 150 and below 100 for the 2nd and 3rd (550 raiders in the 3 biggest guilds at most...and this is temporary and overly exagerated numbers...and merely 450 others raiders at best on the server, in the best moment, on the best case scenario...so you have 10% in the optimal scenario on the optimal raiding situation and we are assuming all this staff are raiders when in fact you have folks like me in those and I would skin alive someone saying I am a raider, I am NOT)...on 10k players per server (or more, 3k online per server)...those are small minorities.
But you are free to believe devs lies or half-lies.
not on my server, and not in my guild...tons of people would leave my guild to bigger guilds because of raids more than any other reason, my guild ran groups daily...we would have 3-5 groups running every night but yet people still left for bigger raiding guilds because they want better loot and to see end game. and what you are saying is not any more fact than what i am saying, but what i am saying is from experience (not devs or anyone els, my personal experience playing mmorpg's) so take it however you want
I see peoples guild hoping as well. But those folks are a minority, you count them many times. They are drawing your attention and your focus. If someone guild hop 15 times in his life, he is still only 1 player...but folks think a LOT of peoples does it.
Let's say on the server 50 persons are guild hoping...it leave the impression, to 15 guild leader, there is a total of 15 X 50 = 750 impressions of guild hoping.
If you have 500 players who reach max level and leave right away, they leave 500 impressions (if any, often they go unoticed, how often did you see a level maximum you never see before and never see in the future...so many of them) but spread over many different folks and they go unoticed, nearly ignore. Nobody recognize their names...but the 50 hopers, everyone recognize them. So even if you 2000 players who leave quietly, they seems like a minority, but they are the majority.
Guild hopers that draw a LOT of attention and ressources but they are a minority.
See, as a chanter I get to see MOST PLAYERS! They all want C3. I can tell you raiders always where a minority. I understand that raiders usually have their source of C3, but even considering that they are a tiny minority. You have just no idea how many quiet soloers or nice groups of non-raiders where presents, folks who go quietly and afraid to annoy, folks I learn to ask them if they need a buff rather than wait for them to ask. Guild Hopers where the most annoying players, always needing Buffs refresh just before they go, you just C3 them 15 minutes ago and they come back, wanting a refresh (My C3 was lasting nearly 4 hours, but that 15 used was to much for them and they can't take a 2h30 for a regular chanter, those guild hopers are really, REALLY annoying). You where blinded to the vast majority of quiet players, non-raiders. As a chanter, I was the minority who rant loudly! Non-raiders are logical persons, they want an efficient solution, ranting is not efficient, they doesn't rant, they leave. I am an optimist. I rant and hope!
You know that at my prime time, I was prolly 1 of the most known character on my server, not because of my skill, not because of my talent, just because of the fact I was trying to see strangers and be as nice as possible...and casuals spread the word of mouth to their friends...and the number of non-raiders was astonishing. Brad must know that, but he also know that 1 encounter is easier to design than 14. Raiding is for lazy devs.
I am sure I must have miss many players...all non-raiders...cause the raiders make enough noise so I doesn't miss any. But non-raiders who reach max level and left, I am sure I miss score of them...I may still underestimate the number of non-raiders badly.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Originally posted by Anofalye I see peoples guild hoping as well. But those folks are a minority, you count them many times. They are drawing your attention and your focus. If someone guild hop 15 times in his life, he is still only 1 player...but folks think a LOT of peoples does it.
Let's say on the server 50 persons are guild hoping...it leave the impression, to 15 guild leader, there is a total of 15 X 50 = 750 impressions of guild hoping.
If you have 500 players who reach max level and leave right away, they leave 500 impressions (if any, often they go unoticed, how often did you see a level maximum you never see before and never see in the future...so many of them) but spread over many different folks and they go unoticed, nearly ignore. Nobody recognize their names...but the 50 hopers, everyone recognize them. So even if you 2000 players who leave quietly, they seems like a minority, but they are the majority.
Guild hopers that draw a LOT of attention and ressources but they are a minority.
See, as a chanter I get to see MOST PLAYERS! They all want C3. I can tell you raiders always where a minority. I understand that raiders usually have their source of C3, but even considering that they are a tiny minority. You have just no idea how many quiet soloers or nice groups of non-raiders where presents, folks who go quietly and afraid to annoy, folks I learn to ask them if they need a buff rather than wait for them to ask. Guild Hopers where the most annoying players, always needing Buffs refresh just before they go, you just C3 them 15 minutes ago and they come back, wanting a refresh (My C3 was lasting nearly 4 hours, but that 15 used was to much for them and they can't take a 2h30 for a regular chanter, those guild hopers are really, REALLY annoying). You where blinded to the vast majority of quiet players, non-raiders. As a chanter, I was the minority who rant loudly! Non-raiders are logical persons, they want an efficient solution, ranting is not efficient, they doesn't rant, they leave. I am an optimist. I rant and hope!
You know that at my prime time, I was prolly 1 of the most known character on my server, not because of my skill, not because of my talent, just because of the fact I was trying to see strangers and be as nice as possible...and casuals spread the word of mouth to their friends...and the number of non-raiders was astonishing. Brad must know that, but he also know that 1 encounter is easier to design than 14. Raiding is for lazy devs.
I am sure I must have miss many players...all non-raiders...cause the raiders make enough noise so I doesn't miss any. But non-raiders who reach max level and left, I am sure I miss score of them...I may still underestimate the number of non-raiders badly.
lol this is never going to end
okay so since there are so many people reaching max level and quiting please explain why eq was the most successful game over a 5 year period with little drop off of player base?
i understand and agree guild hopers are annoying but my point was even the people that stayed wanted raids and complained daily. alot of people stayed out of loyalty, but almost all wanted guild progression.
and being a shaman i saw alot of people wanting buffs as well, and like i said alot of those people you assume are casuals are in fact alts to players that have raiding characters.
again if like you claim 95% dont like raiding and quit at max level eq would have died real quick, its player base would have drooped fast. we can go back and forth for days about this if you want, but i promise until you give me hard facts you wont change my mind and opinion on this.
edit: BTW sorry for hijacking this thread, it really does need to die
But EQ is nearly dead now. (comparing to what it was)
If it would have been group centered/solo centered instead of raid centered, it would still be on the TOP and WoW would only be a runner up. Happy players doesn't leave for more recents games, they stick with their MMOs as long as they enjoy it. Thinking otherwise is ignoring how the MMOs players behave. They doesn't leave for a better game, they leave when the game doesn't please them anymore.
WoW is casual tuned compare to others MMOs (with the exception of CoH) and is successfull. WoW End Game is going to kill it just like it kill EQ while ruining it fanbase. CoH relative decline is due to the 5 nerfs, the Hamidon and IoP...remove those 3 nasty aspect and it would be the second most popular MMO in NA now...but they just made poor choices, which cost them a lot.
EQ would never be nearly dead with all the expensions they throw in, they would be ruling the world of the MMOs if they could reach the majority. But they reach only a minority, those who raids, and this explains why it is slowly but certainly losing members.
Raiders are a minority even among hardcores, take the casuals and it become ridicously tiny minority. DAoC is progressing and never has been as strong as now...because they try to please majority...see no raiding on the popular servers which were implemented lately, why do you think PvE would be any more raider oriented than the very hardcore PvPers? PvEers are not raiders in a vast majority, even less raiders in the PvEers than in the PvPers.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Originally posted by Anofalye But EQ is nearly dead now. (comparing to what it was)
If it would have been group centered/solo centered instead of raid centered, it would still be on the TOP and WoW would only be a runner up. Happy players doesn't leave for more recents games, they stick with their MMOs as long as they enjoy it. Thinking otherwise is ignoring how the MMOs players behave. They doesn't leave for a better game, they leave when the game doesn't please them anymore.
WoW is casual tuned compare to others MMOs (with the exception of CoH) and is successfull. WoW End Game is going to kill it just like it kill EQ while ruining it fanbase. CoH relative decline is due to the 5 nerfs, the Hamidon and IoP...remove those 3 nasty aspect and it would be the second most popular MMO in NA now...but they just made poor choices, which cost them a lot.
EQ would never be nearly dead with all the expensions they throw in, they would be ruling the world of the MMOs if they could reach the majority. But they reach only a minority, those who raids, and this explains why it is slowly but certainly losing members.
Raiders are a minority even among hardcores, take the casuals and it become ridicously tiny minority. DAoC is progressing and never has been as strong as now...because they try to please majority...see no raiding on the popular servers which were implemented lately, why do you think PvE would be any more raider oriented than the very hardcore PvPers? PvEers are not raiders in a vast majority, even less raiders in the PvEers than in the PvPers.
hahaha, eq kept its fan base strong over 5+ years it only dropped off because of wow, and all those expansions had lots of raiding and people still stayed for some reason hehe, maybe they like raids? i dunno
you do have a point though, there needs to be more than just raids at end game to keep people interested. believe me I'm not one that just likes to raid, i don't like to raid that much at all actually. i just know alot of people do like it, people do it...alot of people do it its obvious.
but I'm done with this discussion, its gone on far to long, we can agree to disagree...respond if you like but i am done. good luck finding a game that fits your play style and that makes you happy!
Originally posted by Anofalye Happy players doesn't leave for more recents games, they stick with their MMOs as long as they enjoy it. Thinking otherwise is ignoring how the MMOs players behave. They doesn't leave for a better game, they leave when the game doesn't please them anymore.
I would have to disagree there Ano. I am having a blast playing DAoC right now, it's just about a perfect game in every way! But when Vanguard comes out, I will be buying it and playing it no matter what. I may stick with DAoC for a while, in fact that's likely, but I'm definitely playing Vanguard when it comes out and it would have to flop pretty bad not to become my main game at that point.
Does that mean DAoC doesn't make me happy? No, on the contrary. DAoC is an amazing game which I truly want for nothing more from; it's almost perfect! However Vanguard is a game that I have been hotly anticipating for a long time now, and when it hits the shelves I might even take a week off work just to get settled in to it.
Instancing can be good and bad depends on how you do it. In some cases like Dungeouns i can see it and love it, but i prefer my MMO's light on the instancing. Being able to run into people at random anywhere adds size (at least in feel) openess and fun to the game IMO. Thats just me, but i also plan on playing D&D online so <shrugs>
Originally posted by jmd10222 Instancing can be good and bad depends on how you do it. In some cases like Dungeouns i can see it and love it, but i prefer my MMO's light on the instancing. Being able to run into people at random anywhere adds size (at least in feel) openess and fun to the game IMO. Thats just me, but i also plan on playing D&D online so <shrugs>
Personnally, I would think the "best approach" would be to have nothing and everything instanced. So a player can do everything outside of instances but also can choose to do any or every mission inside an instance. It means that the devs cannot hide behind artificial contents they call "competition" however, since folks will focus on the challenge the game provides rather than fight each other for limited ressources (always bad IMO, it destroy the player base and the fanbase, not many folks enjoyed to be competing against each other without the choice of instancing).
But then, Instancing becomes MORE work rather than less work...exactly like raiding should always have been, MORE work, not a shortcut which shaft every player.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
What i liked alot in swg was the big world, i felt freeeedom in that game, pre cu, but its the world i wan to share here, no instance really, thats what im exited about vanguard, they wont make lots of instance, its really nice, something i have bin looking for, for along time, im tired of instancing, it dossent give me the feeling, im in a world, so i hope vanguard will give what we think they will, and give a huge world with not much instancing
Originally posted by Anofalye (always bad IMO, it destroy the player base and the fanbase, not many folks enjoyed to be competing against each other without the choice of instancing).
WTH are you talking about? That is what an MMORPG is about for many of us! Not just competing but being forced to get along, to wait our turns for a certain camp or spawn, both of which Vanguard is attempting to do away with anyway so you have nothing to worry about. Special mobs that are made to spawn as a result of a part of a quest will only be attackable by you and your group.
Anyway, Vanguard will have NO INSTANCING, so if you like it great, if not, tough noogies.
I miss the old time... when I was playing EQ MANY many years ago and I was meeting nice people in dongeons. When the dongeons were full of people harassing each others for a mob.. ahhhh i miss it. Yes there was some people who enjoyed to cause problems but the competition was good... today, in MMORPGs, everything is layed out for you and all you have to do is to grab it, like quests...
So I think instanced zones are okay, but i prefer not instanced, for the competition...
Zakor
Now playing : FFXIV Waiting on : TBD Best MMORPGs played : EQ, FFXI
Originally posted by Zakor I miss the old time... when I was playing EQ MANY many years ago and I was meeting nice people in dongeons. When the dongeons were full of people harassing each others for a mob.. ahhhh i miss it. Yes there was some people who enjoyed to cause problems but the competition was good... today, in MMORPGs, everything is layed out for you and all you have to do is to grab it, like quests... So I think instanced zones are okay, but i prefer not instanced, for the competition...
Zakor
Exactly! That was what I loved about EQ and UO! You go in the dungeon and that was the dungeon for EVERYONE. People harrassing each other in /ooc, competing for spawns, co-operating for camps. If you didn't get a long with people they remembered and that person wouldn't get good groups. People were forced by societies general laws to co-operate and get along, or not as the case may be.
Instancing has its place, a high level raid for example where as someone already said you have like 40 people along you just dont want another 20 people there onlooking pushing your video card or internet connection even harder.
On the other hand having all dungeons instanced just doesn't seem quite right, you're in a massively multiplayer online game, you should expect people to come into your dungeon and perhaps join up with them. If you aren't into the whole 'hunt with someone else' thing go hunt stuff on the landscape or another dungeon or make it so you can choose to instance your dungeon or not :P. Well in asherons call you could hunt outdoors anyway, not sure how Vanguard is approaching mobs just randomly spawning outdoors but i'd assume since its going to be a rather large world there will be stuff to fight through out there .
If i have to lean either way i'm not for instancing, but to be honest a mix would be nice.
I was all for instancing untill I played LDON in EQI and then followed it with City of Heroes. Both became apparent very quickly that a template was being used and once you went thru enough "dungeons" to exhaust those templates then you exhausted the replayability of the game. COH was the worst I ever played. You had a sewer template, a ruined warehouse, an office building and a cave. By lvl 16 I was bored stiff. Where was the awe of a City of Mist or a Crystal Caverns or a Karnor's Castle. I was scared to go in those places and proud when I left. Any instanced game I have played has not gave me that feeling. EQII, COH, D&D Online etc etc all feel closed off and lacking in originality because their dungeons feel like a little box instead of a true place of legend and lore.
Originally posted by Abraxos I was all for instancing until I played LDON in EQI and then followed it with City of Heroes. Both became apparent very quickly that a template was being used and once you went thru enough "dungeons" to exhaust those templates then you exhausted the replayability of the game. COH was the worst I ever played. You had a sewer template, a ruined warehouse, an office building and a cave. By lvl 16 I was bored stiff. Where was the awe of a City of Mist or a Crystal Caverns or a Karnor's Castle. I was scared to go in those places and proud when I left. Any instanced game I have played has not gave me that feeling. EQII, COH, D&D Online etc etc all feel closed off and lacking in originality because their dungeons feel like a little box instead of a true place of legend and lore.
Thank you, and this is exactly it. Instances just suck, wether they are random or not. The challenge of the MMORPG was the very FACT that you could go do a raid and had to put up with whoever was already there camping. The guy above this a few posts says instancing is good so you don't have to put up with other people when you are raiding. WTF is the fun in that?? Blah, go play CoV or WoW then and when you die of boredom we will put on your gravestone "Loved instances, even though they killed him."
City of Mist was a fearsome place in EQ and even to the high levels very dangerous. The beauty of those places was there might be someone there who could help you, harm you or just piss you off in general. If you wanted a certain camp well, it might be taken, and you could take it over by force and be a jerk, in which case you would be remembered, or negotiate for it or ask them when they were leaving. All of this promoted communication and socialization. Cave dwelling bedwetters would soon have to learn how to communicate like adults or quickly become frustrated soloers.
Instancing does away with all this. I hate instancing.
Comments
Brad is much more skilled than me in writing (in english especially).
However, he says that peoples either:
- Want to achieve everything. See everything (for the monthly fees they pay)
- Want challenge and accept indirect competition and to be lame because of such features.
Well, sorry Brad, I am in neither groups! I want challenge but I doesn't accept any competition with a human player over ressources (except in PvP, but I play on PvE servers, so either open the PvP or close it, don't let it half open for jerks to abuse it). If I doesn't achieve something, it must be because of the challenge itself and because of me, not because I am not guilded or because other players are abusing the respawn point like if it was an Angelina Joly open bar!
I can accept to fail because my group lack, this is close enough to me, I can rework and get a better group going...but a raid or guild? Sorry, no interest at all...and MANY (the overwhelming majority hardly raid and hardly do guildstuff on a noticeable basic) players doesn't want anything to do with raiding, putting a raiding ending on their head is mean and bad, especially that all MMOs are doing such a lame thing. For me, player-competition is ALWAYS bad if you are in a real time setting, it is already a compromise for me to play in real time (prolly always will), competition over limited ressources while you are already under a compromise is not acceptable (I doesn't PvP in real time, I doesn't compete harsly in real time). (I will accept friendly cooperative competition, like who is the first to do this, where achieving something doesn't means removing anything from others except maybe on a ranking board).
I would throw a tease at Brad...are you unable to make the player progression slow and hard without using other players? Are you admitting before I even play the game that you can't entertain me for what I am seeking? Or are you up to the challenge of not using others players against me in any form, but always considering them helping me or ignoring me in every case? From my limited english, I think I understand that, but I must just not understand english properly!
My tolerance to waiting and not playing is pretty low (die boat die), but been among the folks who impress folks by always leveling to fast, I think I can take quite a long XP curve...after all, I maxed all my AAs in EQ by mid-march 2003 (545 on a chanter back then), which was possibly a server-wide first and most certainly a server first! I am sure a bright dev can figure something out to keep me busy in 1 zone or 2 without shafting the casuals, can't you? 
And so on, Brad is very brilliant and very skilled with writing, but he willingly take such shortcut to advance his points, where the uber-raiders ends up abusing non-raiders. Group uberness belong to groupers, Solo uberness belong to soloers. If someone disagree, we will never reach an agreement there, I am adamant.
I am not completely trashing their approach about persistant world, it has many interesting features. But no matter how much I repeat myself, raiding-rewards is the problem for MANY players.
Brad make a mistake, he want to retain a player at all cost. A player that leave happy is better than a player that remain longer in game to finally leave unhappy, those 4 extra months of subscribtions are not worth the lost of "fanbase faction" it cost you, $60 is worth less than a happy customer, it is merely the cost of the initial box and raiding rarely retain a player for longer than 4 months unless that player happens to like raiding, in which case raiding didn't need to be "end game" to retain that player. Someone who leave happy is a potential customer in the future, if he doesn't come back at the expension, it may be because if find another game but if you did your job right, it is most likely for RL reasons and he would have quit anyway. Blizzard will suffer greatly from the raiding mistake, it fanbase will leave unhappy, this is a "first" happening in Blizzard history. Someone who leave is not the desired outcome and it is not to be taken lightly, but keeping them by changing the gameplay is certainly ruining the franchise in the long run, it remove all trust the player has in you, which means it will hurt further projects.
PS: About my signature, yes, it work equally well for any other aspect, a real soloer or grouper like me will group and solo even if this doesn't give me any advantage inside PvP, Tradeskills or raiding, I doesn't play for those, I play for solo or grouping reasons solely. If someone won't raid if raiding doesn't give him advantages in others aspects of the game, he is simply no real raider but a lame guy who enjoy gaining unfair advantage and not deserving them, the DKP system is a magnificiant proof of this.
PPS: Raiding has FAR more impact on the game than many seems to believe it has. A minority of players are raiders, let's advance that 5% of the current MMORPGs players are raiders(fictionnal number, it is prolly less), this still doesn't make 1% of the market the company want to reach(the console players and other gamers)...and raiding might not mess with the majority of other players, but it will mess with far more players than the minority you are catering...10% of 95% is still 9,5%(fictionnal number again, prolly more than 10%)...and it is messing with far more than 10% of the non-raiders. How do you think a casual reacts when I say I have no hope of reaching the TOP and I am a pointlessly underated character in a game when he consider me to be ultimately uber and hardcore? Reproduce that to a big scale, most casuals have a friend they consider hardcore who is not a raider and that will tell him exactly that line in a different way. I can tell you, my casuals friends left EQ when I told them such a line, over other issues openly, but well, HOPE is everything...and if someone doesn't raid, he CAN'T HOPE!
PPPS: Why do EVERY MMO's enforce something lame on the soloers/groupers? Brad himself say there is not only 1 approach, why does EVERY MMO's finish with another system after grouping/soloing? Why can't 1, only 1 good MMO, finish in grouping or soloing (LDoN-like would be droolicious for me, with a never-ending opening or something like that, but that would be just for me hehe)? All the games on the left, they all finish in raiding/PvP/Tradeskill, not 1 of them finish in grouping or soloing...considering that the core of their gameplay is centered about either grouping or soloing, sound pretty lacking to me!
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
[quote]Originally posted by Anofalye
[b]
Originally posted by Finduilas
There is a far more interesting discussion here:
[url=http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=29572&mode=linear&perpage=40&pagenumber=1]
Comments from some leading devs too.
Brad is much more skilled than me in writing (in english especially).
However, he says that peoples either:
- Want to achieve everything. See everything (for the monthly fees they pay)
- Want challenge and accept indirect competition and to be lame because of such features.
Well, sorry Brad, I am in neither groups! I want challenge but I doesn't accept any competition with a human player over ressources (except in PvP, but I play on PvE servers, so either open the PvP or close it, don't let it half open for jerks to abuse it). If I doesn't achieve something, it must be because of the challenge itself and because of me, not because I am not guilded or because other players are abusing the respawn point like if it was an Angelina Joly open bar!
I would throw a tease at Brad...are you unable to make the player progression slow and hard without using other players? Are you admitting before I even play the game that you can't entertain me for what I am seeking? Or are you up to the challenge of not using others players against me in any form, but always considering them helping me or ignoring me in every case? From my limited english, I think I understand that, but I must just not understand english properly!
And so on, Brad is very brilliant and very skilled with writing, but he willingly take such shortcut to advance his points, where the uber-raiders ends up abusing non-raiders. Group uberness belong to groupers, Solo uberness belong to soloers. If someone disagree, we will never reach an agreement there, I am adamant.
I am not completely trashing their approach about persistant world, it has many interesting features. But no matter how much I repeat myself, raiding-rewards is the problem for MANY players.
Brad make a mistake, he want to retain a player at all cost. A player that leave happy is better than a player that remain longer in game to finally leave unhappy, those 4 extra months of subscribtions are not worth the lost of "fanbase faction" it cost you, $60 is worth less than a happy customer, it is merely the cost of the initial box and raiding rarely retain a player for longer than 4 months unless that player happens to like raiding, in which case raiding didn't need to be "end game" to retain that player. Someone who leave happy is a potential customer in the future, if he doesn't come back at the expension, it may be because if find another game but if you did your job right, it is most likely for RL reasons and he would have quit anyway. Blizzard will suffer greatly from the raiding mistake, it fanbase will leave unhappy, this is a "first" happening in Blizzard history. Someone who leave is not the desired outcome and it is not to be taken lightly, but keeping them by changing the gameplay is certainly ruining the franchise in the long run, it remove all trust the player has in you, which means it will hurt further projects.
PS: About my signature, yes, it work equally well for any other aspect, a real soloer or grouper like me will group and solo even if this doesn't give me any advantage inside PvP, Tradeskills or raiding, I doesn't play for those, I play for solo or grouping reasons solely. If someone won't raid if raiding doesn't give him advantages in others aspects of the game, he is simply no real raider but a lame guy who enjoy gaining unfair advantage and not deserving them, the DKP system is a magnificiant proof of this.
PPS: Raiding has FAR more impact on the game than many seems to believe it has. A minority of players are raiders, let's advance that 5% of the current MMORPGs players are raiders(fictionnal number, it is prolly less), this still doesn't make 1% of the market the company want to reach(the console players and other gamers)...and raiding might not mess with the majority of other players, but it will mess with far more players than the minority you are catering...10% of 95% is still 9,5%(fictionnal number again, prolly more than 10%)...and it is messing with far more than 10% of the non-raiders. How do you think a casual reacts when I say I have no hope of reaching the TOP and I am a pointlessly underated character in a game when he consider me to be ultimately uber and hardcore? Reproduce that to a big scale, most casuals have a friend they consider hardcore who is not a raider and that will tell him exactly that line in a different way. I can tell you, my casuals friends left EQ when I told them such a line, over other issues openly, but well, HOPE is everything...and if someone doesn't raid, he CAN'T HOPE!
PPPS: Why do EVERY MMO's enforce something lame on the soloers/groupers? Brad himself say there is not only 1 approach, why does EVERY MMO's finish with another system after grouping/soloing? Why can't 1, only 1 good MMO, finish in grouping or soloing (LDoN-like would be droolicious for me, with a never-ending opening or something like that, but that would be just for me hehe)? All the games on the left, they all finish in raiding/PvP/Tradeskill, not 1 of them finish in grouping or soloing...considering that the core of their gameplay is centered about either grouping or soloing, sound pretty lacking to me![/b][/quote]
i understand you want just one game that fits your play style, and i have explained in other of my posts why there never will be a mmorpg like that. 5% of current mmorpg being people that raid is highly flawed, please supply proof to this because i don't agree at all.
i know and heard of very few mmorpg players that refuse to raid, especially those that consider themselves "hardcore" gamers. while i don't have any facts backing up my theory i would say the mmorpg gamer that doesn't like to raid is by far the minority but i could be wrong, but it is nowhere near 5% like you claim, that is just a ridiculous claim.
look, i favor soloing i play wow currently and spend almost all of my time soloing and i haven't raided in a long time. but how do you expect a game like wow or vanguard, that has a persistent world heavily focused on guild and community to be primarily focused on solo play and small grouping?
there are plenty of rpg's out there that have online play without raiding like NWN and DS, mmorpg's are more for massive online play and yes raiding. they are also more of a time sink so it wouldn't really be smart to make a game to just solo or have small grouping because that will get old real quick and wouldn't be able to hold subscribers for a long time.
like i have said before i hope you can find a game or a server that you can be happy in, but i don't think a mmorpg will ever be made like you want, and it is because the average mmorpg does indeed want to raid. i truly believe that and until you can show me facts to back up your 5% claim i will continue to believe it.
read this http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1044304#post1044304 then come back and talk to me about the vanguard/soe fiasco.....
I was there when the first wave of EQ players meet raiding. Most of those players left EQ completely angered at raiding, but it is spread over time and was not instant. Only a few say no from the start. It is spread a little over the time and most of them hardly voice a complaint unless you work them to talk a little. New players leave because of raiding in the same ratio, it is just spread even more over time and it completely ruin the company fanbase in the long run. You have no idea how badly SoE hurt it fanbase over the years and don't you think raiding is not the master reason.
You can easily find that less than 5% of the players are raiding in the current MMOs, you want me to provide you numbers SoE doesn't reveal (or other competitors). But consider all the peoples who have an account. Then consider how many raid SIGNIFICANTLY on their total amount of time.
On my EQ server, there was arguably 400 raiders at best at any moment, let's say the big number is 1000 raiders (which is far less) on a total population of 10k...that is 10%...EQ is the most Raid-oriented game and it is easy to divided by 2 when you want to make a mixt with let's say...WoW and the like!
Numbers you can't get, you can make a rought estimate and be generous for the other side...5% is been overly generous. I can tell you other servers harass me to join their guild, talk about a shortage of players when most guilds on your server try to recruit you and many cross server guilds! LOL.
WoW is pure trash for a hardcore soloer, you can't be the best soloer either. My casuals friends (not hardcores) are all annoyed by the fact it is raiders who solo best. Even if they bear it (a minority), they are not happy about it. He who can't dream to master his craft doesn't enjoy his craft as much. Be it solo, grouping, raiding, PvP, tradeskill or raiding.
I want a MMO that favour Grouping and/or soloing to the end. Don't send me to the travesty of Neverwinter Night, I have all D&D products except 2 (computer products I mean). I won't bear that travesty! It is not D&D! Dungeon Siege is not even able to make a working saving system!
Hehe, I hope you enjoy my company, I am adamant and determined, I am not going to go away because someone ask or disagree. I can't bring numbers I doesn't have access to. But SoE and Sigil know pretty well that 5% of raiders is extremely generous, the raiders are a tiny minority. Call it community as much as you want, a minority of community. Humans who are prone to such heavy community oriented stuff are usually not very computer games oriented, they prefer real life rightfully.
All the MMOs focus the core of their game around PvE solo/grouping...yet for the ending they put a lame "End Game". A bright dev will finish it in a hardcore grouping or soloing system! Have no doubts. If it is not Sigil, to bad for them, they won't be able to say they didn't get advices about it.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
lol i don't expect you to "go away" my friend, i am here to discuss and i am well aware not everyone will agree with me and thats why i come here
the only thing i ask is people don't say the same things over and over in their posts, its kind of a pet piev of mine
but say what you want it is all good, i just might call you on it. 
but i do disagree on the 5% argument, yes i to played about 4 years of eq and while i didn't play the game until a little before pop was released, once i got to max level of 65 everybody was raid geared and i mean everybody. and almost everyone was max level or near it, while i don't have any proof backing up my claim either i can honestly say at least 40-50%(and this is a generous %) of everyone on that server was raiding considering the amount of people that were max level.
and while i do agree wow is not a good solo game for a hardcore gamer, it is still the best(mmorpg) game for a soloer i have seen. and alot of people raid and like it, people complain about endgame and want more, maybe not as many as in eq but still more that 5% i assure you.
honestly if it was really only 5% we would know it because there would be alot more people like you complaining all over the place. i think if you are talking about casual gamers you may be right, but those are people that usually play consoles and i have always thought that mmorpg's are not meant for true casual gamers. that is just my opinion, I'm going to look into this more i might make a poll about this..
edit: i made a poll in GD about this just to see what people thought, i messed up on the poll and it wont let me edit it. i wanted to have 4 answers 2 no and 2 yes but i dunno what happened, plus it wont let me fix a typo in the poll either . oh well, here is the link to it though if you are interested click
read this http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1044304#post1044304 then come back and talk to me about the vanguard/soe fiasco.....
The way raiding hatred and dislike happen is progressive. A player who never raid before and is presented with raiding will naturally give it a try. He is not a raider yet, he is trying raiding...if after a few months he still is raiding, than he is a raider...but most leave before a few months elapse, the imposing majority leave. Most raid leaders will tell you that only a minority will fit into the raiding world...a tiny minority...among the minority who reach maximum level...a minority among a minority is about 5% to me.
If you want to believe what devs says, sure go ahead, for them it is FAR easier to put 1 mob and stick 70 players around, not much content to offer. Bandwith challenges is actually something to motivate some folks.
Content is very limited and scarse with raiding, it please the devs. They know it is a minority who enjoy raiding, but most peoples give it a try before they leave. If it please you to believe there are more than 5% of raiders out there, please be my guest and dream on. The awakening is going to be brutal if you are a dev.
Having 14 encounters instead of 1 is a LOT more work for the devs, they rather focus on fixing bandwiths...but most peoples are not happy in big nasty raiding community. In fact, I doesn't remember reading happiness much in the guildchat of any uberguild I join (eh, I give it a try and I can tell you I read mucho harshness in those guildchats). Group challenge require much more thinking...so much harder than Brad seem to believe he can't make it challenging without using other players to slow you down. Raiding as the end game is the lazy devs walk out, I rather have instancing and work where it matter than have no instancing and lack of work in group challenges.
But you want to believe that more than 5% of the WoW players are raiders...so let's see...5 millions...means 250k raiders...I doubt there is 250k raiders in WoW...like I said, it was overly generous! Go check for yourself how many guilds raid, nearly every raiding guild has a website or a forum but if you want to throw a X2 assuming many doesn't (lol, not many raiding guilds has no website or forum...not many at all). Shouldn't be to much troubles to figure.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
there are alot of people not max level in wow, yeah you could argue more people that play wow don't like to raid mainly because there is alot of casuals that play. but you used eq as your example, eq doesn't have alot of casuals at all. remember casual is 10 hours per week or less, there is no time to even think about raiding even if you did ever get max level.
but i agree in wow there isn't alot of raiding guilds vs casual ones or just smaller guilds, alot of casual people play way more than hardcore like you and i. go check out the GD thread i responded to you post there to
read this http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1044304#post1044304 then come back and talk to me about the vanguard/soe fiasco.....
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
well i wrote another post that got butchered and lost somehow, god what is wrong with this site anyways?
I'm not going to rewrite that post again, but i disagree with you there and from experience on my server i know most every person max level did indeed raid. if you don't want to believe that is fine, i do hope you get the game you are looking for and goodluck with that, but can we end this discussion? because obviously it is not based on fact but opinion only from both sides.
read this http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1044304#post1044304 then come back and talk to me about the vanguard/soe fiasco.....
Opinions?
I know many players left at max level without raiding or trying to raid and left angered, most of my friends and folks I group and level with did that. Many guild leaders would also confirm what I say, after working hard on recruiting, they know raiders are a tiny minority. Just find an honest guild leader who recruit for raiding, he will tell you how few are raid-wanting...a tiny minority. Each EQ server harbor more than 10k players...not many raiding guild...in fact you have very few of them...15 maybe, with 300 members in the ONE monstruous, than drop to 150 and below 100 for the 2nd and 3rd (550 raiders in the 3 biggest guilds at most...and this is temporary and overly exagerated numbers...and merely 450 others raiders at best on the server, in the best moment, on the best case scenario...so you have 10% in the optimal scenario on the optimal raiding situation and we are assuming all this staff are raiders when in fact you have folks like me in those and I would skin alive someone saying I am a raider, I am NOT)...on 10k players per server (or more, 3k online per server)...those are small minorities.
But you are free to believe devs lies or half-lies.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
not on my server, and not in my guild...tons of people would leave my guild to bigger guilds because of raids more than any other reason, my guild ran groups daily...we would have 3-5 groups running every night but yet people still left for bigger raiding guilds because they want better loot and to see end game. and what you are saying is not any more fact than what i am saying, but what i am saying is from experience (not devs or anyone els, my personal experience playing mmorpg's) so take it however you want
read this http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1044304#post1044304 then come back and talk to me about the vanguard/soe fiasco.....
I see peoples guild hoping as well. But those folks are a minority, you count them many times. They are drawing your attention and your focus. If someone guild hop 15 times in his life, he is still only 1 player...but folks think a LOT of peoples does it.
Let's say on the server 50 persons are guild hoping...it leave the impression, to 15 guild leader, there is a total of 15 X 50 = 750 impressions of guild hoping.
If you have 500 players who reach max level and leave right away, they leave 500 impressions (if any, often they go unoticed, how often did you see a level maximum you never see before and never see in the future...so many of them) but spread over many different folks and they go unoticed, nearly ignore. Nobody recognize their names...but the 50 hopers, everyone recognize them. So even if you 2000 players who leave quietly, they seems like a minority, but they are the majority.
Guild hopers that draw a LOT of attention and ressources but they are a minority.
See, as a chanter I get to see MOST PLAYERS! They all want C3. I can tell you raiders always where a minority. I understand that raiders usually have their source of C3, but even considering that they are a tiny minority. You have just no idea how many quiet soloers or nice groups of non-raiders where presents, folks who go quietly and afraid to annoy, folks I learn to ask them if they need a buff rather than wait for them to ask. Guild Hopers where the most annoying players, always needing Buffs refresh just before they go, you just C3 them 15 minutes ago and they come back, wanting a refresh (My C3 was lasting nearly 4 hours, but that 15 used was to much for them and they can't take a 2h30 for a regular chanter, those guild hopers are really, REALLY annoying). You where blinded to the vast majority of quiet players, non-raiders. As a chanter, I was the minority who rant loudly! Non-raiders are logical persons, they want an efficient solution, ranting is not efficient, they doesn't rant, they leave. I am an optimist. I rant and hope!
You know that at my prime time, I was prolly 1 of the most known character on my server, not because of my skill, not because of my talent, just because of the fact I was trying to see strangers and be as nice as possible...and casuals spread the word of mouth to their friends...and the number of non-raiders was astonishing. Brad must know that, but he also know that 1 encounter is easier to design than 14. Raiding is for lazy devs.
I am sure I must have miss many players...all non-raiders...cause the raiders make enough noise so I doesn't miss any. But non-raiders who reach max level and left, I am sure I miss score of them...I may still underestimate the number of non-raiders badly.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
lol this is never going to end
okay so since there are so many people reaching max level and quiting please explain why eq was the most successful game over a 5 year period with little drop off of player base?
i understand and agree guild hopers are annoying but my point was even the people that stayed wanted raids and complained daily. alot of people stayed out of loyalty, but almost all wanted guild progression.
and being a shaman i saw alot of people wanting buffs as well, and like i said alot of those people you assume are casuals are in fact alts to players that have raiding characters.
again if like you claim 95% dont like raiding and quit at max level eq would have died real quick, its player base would have drooped fast. we can go back and forth for days about this if you want, but i promise until you give me hard facts you wont change my mind and opinion on this.
edit: BTW sorry for hijacking this thread, it really does need to die
read this http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1044304#post1044304 then come back and talk to me about the vanguard/soe fiasco.....
But EQ is nearly dead now. (comparing to what it was)
If it would have been group centered/solo centered instead of raid centered, it would still be on the TOP and WoW would only be a runner up. Happy players doesn't leave for more recents games, they stick with their MMOs as long as they enjoy it. Thinking otherwise is ignoring how the MMOs players behave. They doesn't leave for a better game, they leave when the game doesn't please them anymore.
WoW is casual tuned compare to others MMOs (with the exception of CoH) and is successfull. WoW End Game is going to kill it just like it kill EQ while ruining it fanbase. CoH relative decline is due to the 5 nerfs, the Hamidon and IoP...remove those 3 nasty aspect and it would be the second most popular MMO in NA now...but they just made poor choices, which cost them a lot.
EQ would never be nearly dead with all the expensions they throw in, they would be ruling the world of the MMOs if they could reach the majority. But they reach only a minority, those who raids, and this explains why it is slowly but certainly losing members.
Raiders are a minority even among hardcores, take the casuals and it become ridicously tiny minority. DAoC is progressing and never has been as strong as now...because they try to please majority...see no raiding on the popular servers which were implemented lately, why do you think PvE would be any more raider oriented than the very hardcore PvPers? PvEers are not raiders in a vast majority, even less raiders in the PvEers than in the PvPers.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
hahaha, eq kept its fan base strong over 5+ years it only dropped off because of wow, and all those expansions had lots of raiding and people still stayed for some reason hehe, maybe they like raids? i dunno
you do have a point though, there needs to be more than just raids at end game to keep people interested. believe me I'm not one that just likes to raid, i don't like to raid that much at all actually. i just know alot of people do like it, people do it...alot of people do it its obvious.
but I'm done with this discussion, its gone on far to long, we can agree to disagree...respond if you like but i am done. good luck finding a game that fits your play style and that makes you happy!
read this http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1044304#post1044304 then come back and talk to me about the vanguard/soe fiasco.....
I would have to disagree there Ano. I am having a blast playing DAoC right now, it's just about a perfect game in every way! But when Vanguard comes out, I will be buying it and playing it no matter what. I may stick with DAoC for a while, in fact that's likely, but I'm definitely playing Vanguard when it comes out and it would have to flop pretty bad not to become my main game at that point.
Does that mean DAoC doesn't make me happy? No, on the contrary. DAoC is an amazing game which I truly want for nothing more from; it's almost perfect! However Vanguard is a game that I have been hotly anticipating for a long time now, and when it hits the shelves I might even take a week off work just to get settled in to it.
Instancing can be good and bad depends on how you do it. In some cases like Dungeouns i can see it and love it, but i prefer my MMO's light on the instancing. Being able to run into people at random anywhere adds size (at least in feel) openess and fun to the game IMO. Thats just me, but i also plan on playing D&D online so <shrugs>
Personnally, I would think the "best approach" would be to have nothing and everything instanced. So a player can do everything outside of instances but also can choose to do any or every mission inside an instance. It means that the devs cannot hide behind artificial contents they call "competition" however, since folks will focus on the challenge the game provides rather than fight each other for limited ressources (always bad IMO, it destroy the player base and the fanbase, not many folks enjoyed to be competing against each other without the choice of instancing).
But then, Instancing becomes MORE work rather than less work...exactly like raiding should always have been, MORE work, not a shortcut which shaft every player.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
WTH are you talking about? That is what an MMORPG is about for many of us! Not just competing but being forced to get along, to wait our turns for a certain camp or spawn, both of which Vanguard is attempting to do away with anyway so you have nothing to worry about. Special mobs that are made to spawn as a result of a part of a quest will only be attackable by you and your group.
Anyway, Vanguard will have NO INSTANCING, so if you like it great, if not, tough noogies.
I miss the old time... when I was playing EQ MANY many years ago and I was meeting nice people in dongeons. When the dongeons were full of people harassing each others for a mob.. ahhhh i miss it. Yes there was some people who enjoyed to cause problems but the competition was good... today, in MMORPGs, everything is layed out for you and all you have to do is to grab it, like quests...
So I think instanced zones are okay, but i prefer not instanced, for the competition...
Zakor
Now playing : FFXIV
Waiting on : TBD
Best MMORPGs played : EQ, FFXI
Exactly! That was what I loved about EQ and UO! You go in the dungeon and that was the dungeon for EVERYONE. People harrassing each other in /ooc, competing for spawns, co-operating for camps. If you didn't get a long with people they remembered and that person wouldn't get good groups. People were forced by societies general laws to co-operate and get along, or not as the case may be.
Instances suck IMHO.
Instancing has its place, a high level raid for example where as someone
already said you have like 40 people along you just dont want another 20
people there onlooking pushing your video card or internet connection
even harder.
On the other hand having all dungeons instanced just doesn't seem quite
right, you're in a massively multiplayer online game, you should expect
people to come into your dungeon and perhaps join up with them. If you
aren't into the whole 'hunt with someone else' thing go hunt stuff on
the landscape or another dungeon or make it so you can choose to
instance your dungeon or not :P. Well in asherons call you could hunt
outdoors anyway, not sure how Vanguard is approaching mobs just randomly
spawning outdoors but i'd assume since its going to be a rather large
world there will be stuff to fight through out there
If i have to lean either way i'm not for instancing, but to be honest a
mix would be nice.
Omg it's true, this is the end of my post :O
Thank you, and this is exactly it. Instances just suck, wether they are random or not. The challenge of the MMORPG was the very FACT that you could go do a raid and had to put up with whoever was already there camping. The guy above this a few posts says instancing is good so you don't have to put up with other people when you are raiding. WTF is the fun in that?? Blah, go play CoV or WoW then and when you die of boredom we will put on your gravestone "Loved instances, even though they killed him."
City of Mist was a fearsome place in EQ and even to the high levels very dangerous. The beauty of those places was there might be someone there who could help you, harm you or just piss you off in general. If you wanted a certain camp well, it might be taken, and you could take it over by force and be a jerk, in which case you would be remembered, or negotiate for it or ask them when they were leaving. All of this promoted communication and socialization. Cave dwelling bedwetters would soon have to learn how to communicate like adults or quickly become frustrated soloers.
Instancing does away with all this. I hate instancing.